WvW commanders/guilds kicking non-meta classes.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Aeolus.3615 said:its called meta because it carrys and hides how bad most players are

No, that's not what it means. Sigh.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:A non-meta group can kill a meta group.Of course it can, but not when all things are equal.

Take 50 players of equal skill + skilled commander running meta builds vs. 50 players of equal skill + skilled commander running off-meta builds, guess who will win? I already know the answer. How do I know that?

Because, wait for it now....if in that scenario, the off meta builds has superior performance, THEN THEY WOULD BE WHAT IS CONSIDERED THE META BUILDS.

The meta does evolve over time, as class changes and such are implemented.

Everything you said about use terrain and tacits is spot on. But again a squad of equal size with equal skill, and both commanders using those tactics, the one running meta builds will win. Every. Single. Time.

Because if they didin't win, every single time, the commanders would change the comps to what would win every, single, time.

[Chaba.5410]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"Graymalkyn.8076" said:A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

Make what work, specifically? Taking down a meta group with a non-meta group? Or avoiding fights and capping stuff without resistance? There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this. I think you are just talking from pride, not from anything practical.

A non-meta group can kill a meta group. The trick is simply hoe you approach the fight. And thats the limits of a lot of commanders. They really don't take advantage of how dynamic The game mode is.

Are you using high ground? Bottle necks? Do you have artillery support? Did you snipe the enemy commander? Did you force the enemy zerg to spread out so they can't take advantage of stacking? Did you force them to trickle in?

Instead of treating it like an actual war. The commanders try to reinact Lord of the rings where there is a nonsensical cluster truck of melee with no arrows, or cannons... Or catapults. Which were used in actual open field combat.

And yet I didn't say a non-meta group cannot kill a meta group. Yes, the trick is simply how you approach a fight and there ARE limits to that. Some fights you cannot take at all with what has been "given" and you have to do something else that you may not enjoy.

Moreover, the idea that another player should spend their playtime slogging through what's been "given" in order to pull something out of their hat to "make it work" is why a lot of commanders have quit or simply don't deal with that by only having meta classes in squad. You're asking them to do a lot of individual work to accomplish something that should be team work. I honestly know of no experienced "strong commander" these days that doesn't have a squad of meta builds. And of all the non-meta groups that I've seen kill meta groups, they're composed of players who understand meta enough to counter it and are strong individual players who don't rely upon commanders, not some unorganized group of pugs following a tag.

Er... I'm not sure how Individual Work is not correlated to team work.

I mean, in a team, you got a job. And you often got to do that job alone, to benefit your team. Sooooo.....

Let me say it simply then.

Your job on the team is to unset the table, put the food away, and wash the dishes. I only dry the dishes because that's what you've been given for your team and I'm really good at drying dishes and drying dishes is a benefit to the job. I'm sure we can make it work. Have fun!

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Duckota.4769 said:Ive noticed mostly zerg players are against no downstate (or so it seems to me) but I think that if there were no downstate this would go away. No downstate = no rallies. If you're playing a class or build that is not up to part for large scale WvW then you are not only just a liability to your team but you're technically helping the enemy team. Lets say 5-10 people tag you. Then you die because of your build and not your skill. Well then you just rallied 5-10 people. Obviously there are cases where you can play off meta exceptionally well and your team can truly benefit from you but they are looking to be competitive. It is a competitive game mode after all.

Edit: I get why some people dont like no downstate. Must be annoying being a glass weaver and dying to AC and having to run all the way back, but I do think no downstate would help eliminate some of the concerns over rallying.

That's not how rally works, and it's not been how rally works for a very long time now.

[Graymalkyn.8076]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this.

Exactly. I never said a non-meta army could take on a meta army. What I said is that a good commander could make it work. That may very well mean avoiding the larger, more powerful enemy. A smart commander would not throw a weak force into a strong force, he'd be aware of his army's limitations and would go for weaker targets. WVW isn't only about large battles and taking keeps. There's a lot of other targets out there that can be taken with a less than perfect group.

[Chaba.5410]

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this.

Exactly. I never said a non-meta army could take on a meta army. What I said is that a good commander could make it work. That may very well mean avoiding the larger, more powerful enemy. A smart commander would not throw a weak force into a strong force, he'd be aware of his army's limitations and would go for weaker targets. WVW isn't only about large battles and taking keeps. There's a lot of other targets out there that can be taken with a less than perfect group.

This is why I asked you "make what work"? Not everyone is interested in taking small objectives with little to no opposition just because they can't engage in large battles or taking keeps. It has nothing to do with a commander's skill in "making it work" and everything to do with what a player wants to spend their game time on.

[Genuinetheo.6591]

Should be no coincidence that raids and fractals run a particular meta (fractals at higher levels) to be more efficient and have a much higher chance of success and loot for everyone.

This same logic applies to WvW where, if X zerg has many of these meta classes, and Y zerg has very little, then the X zerg has a drastically higher chance of winning the engagement.

There's little you can do against that besides run the same meta classes.

[Graymalkyn.8076]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this.

Exactly. I never said a non-meta army could take on a meta army. What I said is that a good commander could make it work. That may very well mean avoiding the larger, more powerful enemy. A smart commander would not throw a weak force into a strong force, he'd be aware of his army's limitations and would go for weaker targets. WVW isn't only about large battles and taking keeps. There's a lot of other targets out there that can be taken with a less than perfect group.

This is why I asked you "make what work"? Not everyone is interested in taking small objectives with little to no opposition just because they can't engage in large battles or taking keeps. It has nothing to do with a commander's skill in "making it work" and everything to do with what a player wants to spend their game time on.

No, not always. There have been plenty of times that I've logged in and there haven't been enough people on the server (or not enough interested in teaming) to build a decent group, so we put together what we have, the commander looks it over, and then decides what level we will play at. I've also seen where a few players get together because they want to take small targets, only to be "yelled" at by a commander for "screwing up his rotation".

So no, all too often it has very little to do with "what a player wants to spend their game time on" and instead, what the group leader, commander or not, decides they are capable of.

[Chaba.5410]

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this.

Exactly. I never said a non-meta army could take on a meta army. What I said is that a good commander could make it work. That may very well mean avoiding the larger, more powerful enemy. A smart commander would not throw a weak force into a strong force, he'd be aware of his army's limitations and would go for weaker targets. WVW isn't only about large battles and taking keeps. There's a lot of other targets out there that can be taken with a less than perfect group.

This is why I asked you "make what work"? Not everyone is interested in taking small objectives with little to no opposition just because they can't engage in large battles or taking keeps. It has nothing to do with a commander's skill in "making it work" and everything to do with what a player wants to spend their game time on.

No, not always. There have been plenty of times that I've logged in and there haven't been enough people on the server (or not enough interested in teaming) to build a decent group, so we put together what we have, the commander looks it over, and then decides what level we will play at. I've also seen where a few players get together because they want to take small targets, only to be "yelled" at by a commander for "screwing up his rotation".

So no, all too often it has very little to do with "what a player wants to spend their game time on" and instead, what the group leader, commander or not, decides they are capable of.

LOL ok. So some commander who decided they want to spend their game time on leading around some pugs to ktrain means you are now qualified to judge all players who wear a tag based on that measurement, including those who find ktrain absolutely soul-sucking because they've been doing it for the past 6 years. Good to know. Makes me question why PvE players don't continuously play Dragon Stand for 4 years straight and instead locust-swarmed to the latest Living Story map. They must not be capable of Dragon Stand meta.

[Duckota.4769]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Duckota.4769 said:Ive noticed mostly zerg players are against no downstate (or so it seems to me) but I think that if there were no downstate this would go away. No downstate = no rallies. If you're playing a class or build that is not up to part for large scale WvW then you are not only just a liability to your team but you're technically helping the enemy team. Lets say 5-10 people tag you. Then you die because of your build and not your skill. Well then you just rallied 5-10 people. Obviously there are cases where you can play off meta exceptionally well and your team can truly benefit from you but they are looking to be competitive. It is a competitive game mode after all.

Edit: I get why some people dont like no downstate. Must be annoying being a glass weaver and dying to AC and having to run all the way back, but I do think no downstate would help eliminate some of the concerns over rallying.

That's not how rally works, and it's not been how rally works for a very long time now.

Ya. You're the 3rd person to say this.

Too lazy to find my post but i posted somewhere in here saying ya you right my b to someone who said as much.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Duckota.4769 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Duckota.4769 said:Ive noticed mostly zerg players are against no downstate (or so it seems to me) but I think that if there were no downstate this would go away. No downstate = no rallies. If you're playing a class or build that is not up to part for large scale WvW then you are not only just a liability to your team but you're technically helping the enemy team. Lets say 5-10 people tag you. Then you die because of your build and not your skill. Well then you just rallied 5-10 people. Obviously there are cases where you can play off meta exceptionally well and your team can truly benefit from you but they are looking to be competitive. It is a competitive game mode after all.

Edit: I get why some people dont like no downstate. Must be annoying being a glass weaver and dying to AC and having to run all the way back, but I do think no downstate would help eliminate some of the concerns over rallying.

That's not how rally works, and it's not been how rally works for a very long time now.

Ya. You're the 3rd person to say this.

Too lazy to find my post but i posted somewhere in here saying ya you right my b to someone who said as much.

Ah, apologies then. I apparently missed page 2 when reading the thread xD

[Aeolus.3615]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:its called meta because it carrys and hides how bad most players are

No, that's not what it means. Sigh.

it is, change my mind, just look at WvW most used builds and classes for stacking gameplay.

The more aoe those builds/classes have the easier they become "metas".

It is a skill design problem.... that creates the bring scourge/fb or gtfo form some people, they think theres a way to cut effort and overwhelm targets with aoe (since how its make the game easyer), and actually works if they they have more than de adversary.

Turkeyspit, bringing aoe and avoid circles isnt skill, its just the most basic form of any siege gamemode, issue is gw2 everything looks like a continuous nuke... wins who have more aoe damage and sustain and that is done trought stack and spam, not much thinking is needed.

Do u really think i like to play hammer spammer rev with 100% crit chance and 200% crit?? Yet im forced into it, cause anything not using that 5k autos and 10k hits, I wont be helping to carry with damage output my group.

Sadly its how the game is ment to work, gimmicks.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this.

Exactly. I never said a non-meta army could take on a meta army. What I said is that a good commander could make it work. That may very well mean avoiding the larger, more powerful enemy. A smart commander would not throw a weak force into a strong force, he'd be aware of his army's limitations and would go for weaker targets. WVW isn't only about large battles and taking keeps. There's a lot of other targets out there that can be taken with a less than perfect group.

Making do with what you have and making it work are very different meanings. Good commanders surely can make do with that they have but whether or not is fun for the commanders to keep doing that is different yet relevant question.

Regardless, that mentality is dangerous as well, because it trying to represent a dishonest reality that things work because they try to make do with what they have, which implying that meta classes are not necessary. Then, ask yourself, think hard about it, why so many good ol commanders stop pugmanding?

This is a two way street. Commanders are not paid to do what you want them to do. They do it because is fun for them, perhaps. However, if you, as pugs, following them start making things unfun for them, then, there are consequences. Think hard about what are the consequences.

[Rashagar.8349]

35/50 is a little on the low side for me when it comes to kicking from a squad to make room for meta only builds becoming understandable/reasonable. Sure organising the squad at that point or before is fine but kicking seems premature. Unless of course the time of day meant the commander was expecting an influx of other meta players soon.

In the end it doesn't really matter though. Do your own thing, have fun.

[zhonnika.1784]

Side note, but if you're finding yourself getting kicked from squads and you ARE running meta, it's likely that the commander is kicking pugs to make room for guild members.

[Nightshade.2570]

@shiri.4257 said:

@Nightshade.2570 said:So, As a WvW Vet and a Commander on and off over the years, let me just say this.I first off lead a group that accepts everyone. This is because we are a group of many many groups made up into one. We run later at night so it is imperative to condense numbers of players to fight off the large groups we are often hit with.

However, we are fun oriented, not a serious group and mostly looking to hold things for the server and take things for them. A serious group would need to dedicate itself to WvW metaclasses, as that is what they will end up fighting against. It's not so much that theirs an open squad space I should be in it, its more like adding you to the squad will be viewed (this is not my personal opinion just a general belief out there) as weakening it against other squads that are using the particular skills needed to fight each other.

Classes with large amounts of area damage, good healing support are what every squad is going to generally lean towards and unfortunately Rangers/soulbeasts have been more of a roaming class (small scale fights, single player damage oriented) for a long time now. The Soulbeast was close to getting into squads with stances but then things just changed and it just didn't become viable compared to other classes that could do everything better in large scale fights.

I am sorry your struggling with this side of WvW you are a valuable resource to the game regardless of what you play. New players or long term that stick around are what is needed to keep the flow of the game.

Some servers are widely known for a very elitist mentality and my only suggestion here is to, find a commander that is more open to all classes to follow or look for a server with a different attitude about things where there maybe more commanders willing to snap you up.

Could you do a livestream AMA regarding WvW commanding? Much appreciated. so many questions, so little time.

Hiya, your welcome to hit me up in game and I can answer any questions you have. :)

[coro.3176]

It's an unfortunate fact of GW2 zerg combat, but projectiles are nearly useless. It's all about non-projectile aoe.

Reason being: it takes a very low number of players rotating aoe reflect or projectile cancelling bubbles to completely protect the entire enemy force from ALL projectiles indefinitely.

This means your primarily ranged single-target projectile class can't do anything in that fight. .. Yes, you can have a bit of unblockable on soulbeast.. yes, you might be able to pick off disorganized stragglers that are apart from the main group, but for the most part all of your projectiles will just hit block or reflect any time you point them at the enemy.

A revenant spamming 15k+ CoR aoes at the enemy doesn't have this problem.A scourge spamming huge circles at the enemy doesn't have this problem.An ele throwing 10k meteors at the enemy doesn't have this problem.

That's why those classes are accepted in squads and soulbeasts are not.

If you want to protest the state of the game, you'll have to take it up with the combat system and skills. There's just tons of anti-projectile skills that protect an entire blob, and nothing like that for other aoes.

[Decado.9304]

As a ranger main, I don't belong in the squad. More useful classes which synergise better with a zerg fight need the spot better than me and I have enought sustain and protection that if i play my class the way I should then I should need no assistance.

Occasionally I have joined squads if a com just wants everyone no matter the class or numbers are a bit low but it's rare and usually i will let them know to give me a kick anytime if a meta class needs a spot, not a problem.

[crepuscular.9047]

there's absolutely no written rule you have to join a guild/squad zerg, and play along with the builds they want to run

you are free to play whatever classes you are comfortable playing, you'll be a better player playing the classes you have more knowledge of and geared up for WvW than playing a class you dont know how to play and dont have the right gears on

most of the time i just follow along with the zerg without joining the squad; if they invite i'll join

[Celsith.2753]

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Graymalkyn.8076 said:A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this.

Exactly. I never said a non-meta army could take on a meta army. What I said is that a good commander could make it work. That may very well mean avoiding the larger, more powerful enemy. A smart commander would not throw a weak force into a strong force, he'd be aware of his army's limitations and would go for weaker targets. WVW isn't only about large battles and taking keeps. There's a lot of other targets out there that can be taken with a less than perfect group.

This is why I asked you "make what work"? Not everyone is interested in taking small objectives with little to no opposition just because they can't engage in large battles or taking keeps. It has nothing to do with a commander's skill in "making it work" and everything to do with what a player wants to spend their game time on.

No, not always. There have been plenty of times that I've logged in and there haven't been enough people on the server (or not enough interested in teaming) to build a decent group, so we put together what we have, the commander looks it over, and then decides what level we will play at. I've also seen where a few players get together because they want to take small targets, only to be "yelled" at by a commander for "screwing up his rotation".

So no, all too often it has very little to do with "what a player wants to spend their game time on" and instead, what the group leader, commander or not, decides they are capable of.

Umm It's absolutely what the player wants to spend their time on, if the commander decides hes going to do something people following him find boring they are free to just log out.

[Celsith.2753]

@Rashagar.8349 said:35/50 is a little on the low side for me when it comes to kicking from a squad to make room for meta only builds becoming understandable/reasonable. Sure organising the squad at that point or before is fine but kicking seems premature. Unless of course the time of day meant the commander was expecting an influx of other meta players soon.

In the end it doesn't really matter though. Do your own thing, have fun.

It's to build habit in players following you when you tag regularly.

I see a certain pin is logged in, I know he's capable and the fights can be challenging and fun. I know he doesn't need rangers and will never let them in squad. I log on a zerg class.

If a pin sometimes let you in and sometimes not they may be being nicer but it's not really setting expectations of what they will be doing or want to do when they lead. Plus then you have the people you kick being upset because they were perfectly acceptable 'when you needed them'.

[Grimmtooth.4163]

I have found in the NA t3-4 levels this elietism doesn't exist.There are a few toxic people but the only times I have seen people kicked from groups is either they log out of wvw, or being AFK pip farming/not runing with the group.I would rather run with a player that knows their class than a player on unfamiliar one just because it's the flavor or the month.

[davidiven.9408]

is this another "I play a good roaming class with roaming build but why I cant be accepted in squad" thread?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I know a couple of coms that do accept every class when the squad is not full and only start kicking when 50 is reached. shrug

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:A non-meta group can kill a meta group.Of course it can, but not when all things are equal.

Take 50 players of equal skill + skilled commander running meta builds vs. 50 players of equal skill + skilled commander running off-meta builds, guess who will win? I already know the answer. How do I know that?

Because, wait for it now....if in that scenario, the off meta builds has superior performance, THEN THEY WOULD BE WHAT IS CONSIDERED THE META BUILDS.

The meta does evolve over time, as class changes and such are implemented.

Everything you said about use terrain and tacits is spot on. But again a squad of equal size with equal skill, and both commanders using those tactics, the one running meta builds will win. Every. Single. Time.

Because if they didin't win, every single time, the commanders would change the comps to what would win every, single, time.

Actually....Ive proven many many many times that Meta builds aren't always better than non meta.

Ive made various non meta that did better than a meta build of somewhat similar build. Its the mentality that META is 100% the very best and will win vs non meta on same skill level thats toxic to any PvP type environment. Im not saying that all non meta is better...just that meta isnt 100% nor is it automatically better than non meta.

Just my 2 cents