Can we please Remove Revenge of the Capricorn?

[Saiyan.1704]

Or just change the Bell capture point dynamic as the biggest issues are:

1: The Bell capture point is structured around team vs team.

The best on-point AoE sustains/damages will win. Therefore this leaves very little for certain comps like stackable Thieves/Mesmers/etc who can't hold a point.. if anything, the more Guard/Necros you have, the better the odds you have to win every bell buff.

2: There really isn't a lot of room for strategic play around the map when 2nd Bell comes.
You could cap both side points and hold it for a period of 15 seconds and STILL not out-point what 2nd & 3rd Bell gives. 2nd Bell is 50 points, 3rd is 75 points. Three consecutive Bell captures is basically a win, I've never even been in a match where the 4th Bell comes.

For fixing the compound points on Bell I recommend a base of 25 points solid on all Bells.... a team can choose to capture bell but risk all the other nodes. Likewise, you can have a solid side-node team but lack Bell teamfighting.

Thoughts?

Edited September 14, 2021 by Saiyan.1704

[Unknown.6851]

I vote yes!

[Genesis.5169]

No, but lemme put in my two cents too.

 

When you say there is no room for strategic play when bell comes, just because you say it doesn't mean its true. Seems like you just got your pants beaten off in the map because no one rotated to bell so now you wanna destroy the bell.

 

Typical pvp posters....

I wish people would stop but they aren't just keep on requesting and offering advice from only the perspective of yourself and make sure you only use examples of bad games where you lose.

 

As a side node i love how the forums loves to talk about how unbalanced a game is weather its a map or a class when they lose but if they win silence, move on OP with your life sometimes you lose and nothing can be done about it please stop coming to the forums to try to win games before the game boots, you cannot get wins here on the forums. No matter how many ways you try to get the game tailored to you, its not gonna make you better because theres another player on other side, this isn't PvE where its all scripted.

 

 

 

[Disney.7826]

Agree, i have worst winrate on that map

including bell it has too small range between points (like djinn without 4th object)

Bell grants too many points and it favours necro buids which can stalemate it for very long even if they are bad - like 1. point OP wrote

25 points each bell would be reasonable, instead of current 25-50-75, because it can make u lose even if u are steamrolling sides as a roamer, it puts more rng to matchmaking

Its also harder to rotate on this map, so not the most suitable one for ranked

 

its bad map just like djinn which was removed from competitive and spirit watch removed from competitive and ranked (remove sw from unrank also pls)

Edited September 14, 2021 by Filip.7463

[Exile.8160]

The problem is not the bell, its that anet doesnt have a tutorial on proper rotations or for pvp in general. The avarege gold (and under) player doesnt really know how to rotate well that includes some plats too sadly.

 

People dont k ow how to rotates well and most of the time you find yourself in a team that just ignores it for another point or fight.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Exile.8160

[Fueki.4753]

Revenge of the Capricorn is the second best sPvP map.

 

If a map was to be removed, it ought to be the manure that is Skyhammer.

All that jumping around and the verticality are far worse than random team mates not going for the bell.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Avatar.3568]

1 hour ago, Exile.8160 said:

The problem is not the bell, its that anet doesnt have a tutorial on proper rotations or for pvp in general. The avarege gold (and under) player doesnt really know how to rotate well that includes some pmats too sadly.

 

People dont k ow how to rotates well and most of the time you find yourself in a team that just ignores it for another point or fight.

You mean the avarage Plat player has still No clue yes

 

Capricorn is one of the harder maps to understand where to go and when to go. People should less tunnel vision on bell, decapping/capping modes while bell is up is still essential and can force people to split up 

[Exile.8160]

13 minutes ago, Avatar.3568 said:

You mean the avarage Plat player has still No clue yes

 

Capricorn is one of the harder maps to understand where to go and when to go. People should less tunnel vision on bell, decapping/capping modes while bell is up is still essential and can force people to split up 

 

I did mention some plat player too but wrote "pmat" by mistake.. fixed it.

 

But it all comes down to rotation knowledge being the problem thats I always suggest to watch monthly AT's amd watch how they rotate.

[Khalisto.5780]

i know the feeling

 

it wasn't so bad when the meta wasn't so team fight oriented

 

when your team are mostly sidenoders and roamers and the other team has necro + supp it feels like a lost match

 

the only reasonable thing would be lower to 15, 30, 60 the bell scores, but i think once the meta shifts it would feel like a bad secondary mechanic.

 

I just learned a bit of necro to swap in case i feel my team needs it, it's the  best thing to do right now.

 

Nerfing bell i think is questionable

 

Removing the whole map is a bad idea (i'd rather  remove treb from kyhlo lmao)

 

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

Personally I find capricorn to be one of the most fun maps for me, but the teamfight oriented comps usually win for free just by sitting on the node, while I would welcome some changes, like 25 -> 40 -> 55 -> 70, but removing a map? 

[saerni.2584]

I think the snowball effect is a great way to build psychological pressure on an opposing team if you can distract them at the right moment. 
 

With extra mobility you can use them to decap or full cap large parts of the map while the node is being stalled. If the enemy over commits to bell then there are a lot of points they can give up. 
 

This is a Goldilocks problem. Never contest the bell and it will be a huge 150 point disadvantage over three bells. Always tunnel vision the bell and you may end up 2-0 on nodes for most of the game. If you and the other team both win a bell each and then you take the next bell...you are up only 50 points, which will be easily overcome by the value of them holding more nodes. 
 

I'd also point out that what Bell favors isn't so much team fighting as it favors the team in the best position at the start of the bell process. A team that already holds 2-1 and just killed several of the enemy team is going to have a better shot even if the opponents technically has a better point fighting team. You can afford to decap that last point while they rush the bell to stall and try to rally enough respawns to take the bell. A team in that position might 3 cap while the opponents are tunnel visioned. Or you take an uncontested bell because the enemy knows it would be feeding. 
 

Bell is fun because it rewards playing with more awareness about the flow of the game. It's Temple and Forest. I like it at least.

[Downstate.4697]

Considering games are won and lost based on team comp try changing your comp next time.

 

"I dont wanna change my build or profession so remove the map." Sounds dumb when I put it like that.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Make bell node bigger, this way aoe spam isn't quite as strong.

[Coffee And Cream.6198]

I'm in the camp that thinks the map is fine as is.  Some teams tunnel vision the bell and do not have the mobility to counter decaps on this map.  If any map should be removed its the Djinn map.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

This thread smells like "Nobody helped me defend bell even though I was drawing arrows on the map and pinging it repeatedly while yelling "BELL" in team chat, so we should just

 

 

Take the entire map

 

 

And put it somewhere else" 

 

(I'm kidding obviously, but nah. I think the second and third bells are good counterweights for teams that lack mobility to keep up with someone decapping their points, but have extreme group cohesion. People wanted a way to break the decap thief meta, here's a part of the puzzle piece to doing that. That indecisive feeling in your gut when you try to figure out if you can sacrifice the bell but hold nodes and win, or if you need to go help protect bell knowing that if you do that the thief with the flash cosplay on is going to reset your points while you're doing that is part of what makes that map so entertaining. ) 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mortrialus.3062]

Capricorn definitely needs some actual work. 

The bell node itself is not an enjoyable node to fight on compared to others. 

Bell is also just really far away from spawn making it impossible to get to in order to prevent a cap whereas with Skyhammer you a fast build can go from spawn to Skyhammer very quickly.  In fact too quickly.  These bonus nodes are extreme opposites and neither feels good.

The map makes a far push on the opening impossible without directly putting yourself in the line of danger from the entire enemy team at mid. 

In fact the map is really choking just in general.  It by far has the most completely uncontested landslides out of all the other maps, and it has the single biggest and most dramatic comebacks in any of the other conquest maps.  And this includes games I've watched in MATs where a team will be dominating for 300 point, and then at like 350-150 they'll have a bad wipe and it's straight up impossible to recover from and they completely stall out at 350 while the other team goes from 150 > 500.

Not because it is well designed but because it's so easy for a team to just completely cut off the entire other team unless the entire losing team regroups and wipes the entire enemy team, at which point it's possible the team that was completely cut off from being able to move can start choking the other team out entirely. 

There's been a ton of matches where I'll grab home because I'm a duelist side noder, and mid is clearly lost before I capture home uncontested.  And in order to maybe try and decap far to help the team recover, maybe force a favorable 2v1 and allow my team to make a comeback you need to run right through the map in plain view of the enemy on mid within easy striking distance of thief, rev, a ranger.

Think about like Foefire, Forest, Temple, you're not forced to literally run through the midfight or at least in striking range plus you have cover to both obscure your movement and protect you from range from the players in the mid fight. 

It's not a well designed map in terms of layout. 

It's really pretty tho.  Kudos there. 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Loules.8601]

We need to return all possible PvP maps to ranked (even Stronghold and magic ball) - not remove 'em. 

[Pimsley.3681]

Ugh that bell. 

 

Could be a boon or a handicap. Many matches I've been in where we lost our lead coz someone in the team is bell hungry. The only answer I can give is that everyone needs to be on the same page and highly organized. 

 

There were games as well where the bell literally saved us last 10 sec. 

 

Regardless of how annoying, it's good practice to keep it because it keeps both teams on their toes. 

[Pimsley.3681]

I prefer the old school Capricorn with the canons and underwater fight. lol. Loved that MAP

[Mini Crinny.6190]

we've moved on from removing amulets to removing maps now

[Exile.8160]

50 minutes ago, Mini Crinny.6190 said:

we've moved on from removing amulets to removing maps now

 

People wont be happy until we have humans with a sword that has 1 skill poking at each other and even then they will scream the othe human pokes harder...

[mortrialus.3062]

5 hours ago, Pimsley.3681 said:

Ugh that bell. 

 

Could be a boon or a handicap. Many matches I've been in where we lost our lead coz someone in the team is bell hungry. The only answer I can give is that everyone needs to be on the same page and highly organized. 

 

There were games as well where the bell literally saved us last 10 sec. 

 

Regardless of how annoying, it's good practice to keep it because it keeps both teams on their toes. 

I love to see it again, at least in private arenas again

 

[Dadnir.5038]

I like how on one side you got people that complain that there isn't enough sPvP map and that "dev favor PvE by giving it 100 maps".

And then there is those kind of thread were some players ask to just remove a sPvP map.

[Entropo.1524]

''can we remove reven...''  well yes we can remove revenant that would be infact quite helpful thank you 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

One of the better maps imo

 

They've already removed so much from the game based on random epiphanies, maps don't need to join.