Vindicator Feedback Thread

[MatyrGustav.6210]

On 9/22/2021 at 5:03 PM, Dragon.8762 said:

Vin ain't bad, but in its current implementation is a bit clunky. 

I think one of its biggest turn offs is when you use an alliance utility, and it switches over to another skill. This can create a lot of annoying gameplay, like when I want to use a damage utility but can't because it's currently on a support utility. To get a damage one, I'm forced to either waste my support utility or press f2 on a 20 second cooldown. 

 

My suggestion would be to keep them separate unless you press the f2 ability. So in practice: 

You have your damage utility skills locked, and your support locked. If you want to switch over to support/damage you have to press f2. This also creates a different kind of consequence where, if you want to switch to support and you did so by pressing f2; you will be locked to it for 20 seconds. Same for damage. So the player will have to think twice before commiting to a legend. 

 

Granted, this kinda makes it appear as though Vin can channel 3 legends, which it already can. This change will just make it less clunky where players have to commit to a legend where it can go on the defensive/offensive depending on the situation. 

•  

i agree. 100% F2 should be Endurance+ & F3 should be swap alliance. 

 

I would hope F3 for other legends would do something useful though, but not feel like the Legendary Alliance F23 is worse because it just switches comparatively. 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by MatyrGustav.6210

[Hooglese.4860]

Alright, this is a big list of feedback. I get that I'm yelling into the void but sometimes that's good for the soul.

 

Core Mechanic (Dodge)

The change to the dodge is interesting because it works for rev due to all of the professions defensive options from weapon skills, however there's a lot to be desired. The grandmaster traits changing the endurance count and ability is an interesting idea but I don't think it works due to the way the game's been designed. Some things in the game simply must be dodged or you die and you want to be not dodging as long as possible so the choice that gives you more frequent, shorter dodges is going to be the best choice.

I think the idea of having 3 choices is fun though, although Vassals of the Empire fills the same role as Forerunner of Death and there's going to be an objectively best option between these two option. Vassals of the Empire could be a mobility or condition damage oriented dodge since the others are damage and defence. Ex: You move 50% faster while dodging.

 

 

Skills

• Alliance Tactics/Energy Meld (F2):  This is a poorly implemented ability. It has a cast time, moderate cost and long cooldown to gain 50 energy for your 50-150 energy pool. This ability should have both cost and cd however it shouldn't have a cast time since dodging is something that you need to do in an emergency. It would also be nice if it filled your endurance for a variable cost depending on your max endurance but that's not happening.

 

Energy meld and Alliance Tactics should also be separated. When you're in the alliance stance you might need the energy for the dodge but don't want to swap skills and vice versa. It would also fix the CD issue with Leviathan Strength.

Greatsword:

The base criticism of it is that it's damage is low and while that's true, its also lacking the defence and control options that other weapons provide. It would be nice if phatom's onslaught provided vigor at the cost of more energy.

1. The auto attack chain is literally just the reapers and that' s disappointing.
2. Phantoms Onslaught (3): The visuals of the skill are almost non-existent. You run forward with a mist filter over you then you do a basic swing. There are enough visuals for greatswords in the game that this is just lazy. The distance charged is also quite slow in comparison to the other options revenants have at their disposal.
3. Imperial Guard/Truestrike (4): The visuals for Truestrike are also extremely lacking. It's just a normal attack. The cost and cooldown of this ability is also far too high.
4. Eternity's Requiem (5): I'm unsure if this was just for me but the circles were almost invisible to see. Not as a defender but as an attacker.

Legendary Alliance:

The stance is Assassin Stance stapled onto Centaur Stance which might be the worst combination of stances you can take. Being an all in aggressor then switching to a self-sacrificing, all-in healer doesn't work because the latter requires you to get out of harms way which you can't do. I thought briefly of the profession as a tanky type however the Saint Viktor skills actively harm the Vindicator. This might be the worst part of the profession and needs to be looked at, if not fully reworked.  Many other's have said that Saint Viktor shouldn't be heal support skill set and I agree.

1. Selfless Spirit/Selfish Spirit: These two heal abilities are by far the worst in the profession. The long cast time is pointlessly cruel because it opens you up to being interrupted, and since its a channel, the CD goes on full cd. The choice to make it a 10s cd is interesting but the heal is simply too ineffective and shouldn't be a long channel or at least it should provide stability.
2. Nomad's Advance/ Battle Dance (6): Nomads Advance is too short of range and the cooldown is too long.
3. Scavenger Burst/Tree Song (7): These two skills are interesting but again they're really weak with high energy costs for very little pay off. Tree song should also provide Vigor instead of regeneration since there is a vigor trait but no way in Alliance stance to gain it.
4. Reaver's Rage/Awakening (8): Again, weak. The stability given is so small that it's not noticeable. Awakening should also provide stability to all allies as well as yourself.
5. Spear of Archemorus/ Urn of Saint Viktor: These elite skills are abysmal. The spear doesn't pierce and does such little damage that it's not worth casting. The Urn is maybe the worst ability in GW2. It costs health, 10 upkeep and you cant heal while its active. On top of that you have to succeed at a 1s cast time to disable it, all for a mild heal and resistance. There should not be a cast time to negate such a heavy cost that you impose on yourself. I understand that requires a rework and we won't see that but in it's current state it's baffling. It requires you to be in the front line but not take damage or get disabled, which is what happens when your in the front line.

Traits

The GM are the core mechanic so I won't go over them again.

1. Leviathan Strength: This talent requires you to be in Alliance Stance but is really good. If they split Alliance Tactics and Energy Meld then this would be a well made talent.
2. Amnesty of Shing Jea: This talent is competing with Leviathan Strength for the same slot but both are only boosting Alliance Stance. The boons should also be swapped because Luxon skills are violence oriented and Kurzick are heal oriented. As it is though, it's a mediocre trait but either it or Leviathan Strength should be put into the major line. That or rework this one.
3. Reaver's Curse, Angsiyan's Trust and Song of Arboreum. All these talents increase your endurance pool without changing your play style. One will always be the best option and at the moment Song of Arboreum is winning. 
4. Angsiyan's Trust: This trait shouldn't give allies any endurance and give the vindicator more. The debuff shows that there's a potential for a problem so why not just make it give a large amount of energy to the Vindicator? Ideally, again, full rework because of point 3.
5. Song of Arboreum: This is a really good trait and a really good idea for Vindicator. However there is no vigor in the Vindicator specialization outside of this trait. I get that Vigor is a strong boon but there are a lot of places that it could be placed. (Any of the greatsword skills, replace it with the other strong boons in the Kurzick skills).
6. Vassal of the Empire: Again, this needs to be fully reworked. Forerunner and this are going to be contention for the same role in the same slot. Ideally, it should give superspeed and chill on land for a more PvP oriented GM trait.

• TLDR: There's promise here but the spec is weak and messy. Numbers need to go up and traits/skills need to be tightened up. 

[rylien.3824]

I don't think I have much to say, it's just like those predecessors of End of Dragons, it's not elite spe, but sloppy rubbish. The dodge loss with the big jump is predictable, the damage is low, the spells are recycled like all the others, the originality is close to nothing ... and visually it is uninteresting, in addition to a lore in bern ...

A nice scam. 

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Spent entire morning playing with this spec. Can somebody tell me what's Vindicator supposed to be?

[Davros.9823]

I have seen alot of negitve coments in this thread and a lot of them are not waranted.

 

One of the big ones is complaining about self boon access, but you can self upkeep 100% regen, prot, 25might, vigor, resistance and resolution. And the might, prot, regen and vigor are permanant on 5 targets. This is just by taking boon estention dodge and a couple of other traits. No concemtration required. You also have tge ability to give 5 man stab in aliance stance along with 5 man stun break. And also able to give some 5 man resolution and resistance.

 

The boon extention dodge is so powerful, it extends boons by 8 seconds every 20 sec if you have energy sigil, and improved vigor. This is enough that your hybrid supports don't need to take any boon duration. This is so powerfull.

 

 

My biggest complaint is found underwater. Anet compleatly forgot the rev can use trident. Perhaps the coolest designed weapon in the game, giving different condi's depending on what legend you channel. Not only did you not get a trident im your weapon box, but if you use alliance stance you do no condi's. No extra effect to trident at all.

 

At least all the skills work underwater.

 

3 other things i feel need to change to make the class work and feel a bit better.

 

 FIRST: the flip over. It doesn't feel great to flip a skill and then have the next one go on cooldown for 10 sec, basicaly the time you are in that legend. You shouldn't be able to double tap, but having the full cooldown feels so puniahing. If there was a 1-2sec icd on flip to be able to use the next skill and upped the base cd of each to 15-20 sec it would flow alot better. You have the energy cost of the skills to limit how they can be spammed.

 

SECOND: the F2. It just doesn't feel great to use in other legends. There are a couple of ways to make this feel better one is that it also triggers on legend swap traits, as everything in vindicator that triggers on legend swap also triggers on F2. The other one is the traits, Leviathan Strength resetting the cooldowns is very strong, but does nothing when used in another legend, if this reset to cooldown of all utilities when in other legends it would be less feel bad, maybe up the added cd to 30 to acomodate foe this increase in utility, but with the 25 energy cost this gives more agency to the player as when the best time to use the skill is. Amnesty of Shing Jea should augment the f2 to give boons depending on what legend you are currently channeling. Leaning more into the boon share aspect that is really strong already in vindicator. (Also wouldn't hurt if you changed the 1 might stack to 1/2sec of fury sounds small but would be so much better, would need to look at the icd on the trait that gives might on fury but small cost imo) This is a trait i feel is sorely missing, just like herald has a trait to augment facet of nature on each legend.

 

THIRD: The URN!! This skill just feels bad to use, the cast time on smashing the urn kills the skill. You try to cancel it, get inturupted, run out of energy have chill on you or numourous other things and it just wiffs. No boons, no heal, nothing. The aoe heal is medium, if it pulsed sone boons like resistance, resolution or prot or maybe a little barrier or even gave ticking revive speed increase would make the skill much more useable.

 

Overall am having fun with the spec and love the design. Just missing a touch of polish.

 

Also please i'm begging ignore the calls to give this guy alac or quickness share. Not something it needs as it can nearly upkeep all defensive boons in the game, and pairs so well with other specs doing alac or quickness that it isn't needed at all.

[Roshyu.2987]

I'm really only posting because I've run into something that I've not seen get brought up. This is just a bug/unintended side effect of changing the dodge that I noticed - removing effects on dodge doesn't occur. Goop from chak (with the associated mastery) and Feeding from eels in Path of Fire are the 2 things I've noticed and tested that aren't removed on the Vindicator dodge, where normal dodges otherwise would, but any other similar effects I'm sure are also affected. You'll definitely want to look into that, ANet.

Since I'm here, I may as well throw in my two cents.
Utilities and Traits: With regards to utilities, I'm just echoing what's largely been said before, but I do have some, hopefully, productive feedback. This first idea is not my own and stems from someone on reddit, but it does tie in with my issue of a single F skill (other than legend swap), which I find sad given that Renegade had 3. The idea in question though is that you have different F skills to swap all utilities to one legendary or the other - Archemorus and Saint Viktor. You could still maintain the full flip where they all just swap to whatever the other skill is. My own idea would be that you effectively combine each skill within a given slot, have base line effects for each, and have a set of major traits that controls if they boost the offensive aspect, the support aspect, or hybridize for a moderate amount. Personally, I think this philosophy would tie in soundly with the current grandmasters, as they follow this scheme, which was even pointed out during the livestream. Additionally, I think it would fit better with the general theme of the legendary alliance. Having separate skills for each feels like they're isolated, rather than working together, especially since they have cooldowns affecting both simultaneously as well. With this though, if it were implemented, I would probably move the dodge majors to the master tier, have these new majors be the grandmasters, and have the current masters (the ones that affect endurance generation) become the adepts.

 

Greatsword: I don't have much to say here, but it is growing one me. I'm thinking I will grow to like it more, especially if improvements are made to the rest of Vindicator as a whole to make it a more cohesive package. I absolutely love the sound effect on Imperial Guard (GS4, the block). 

 

Modified dodge: As a base line concept, I like it, but, as mentioned at the very start, it needs to function as a normal dodge for certain things and it still needs tweaking. I'm not sure where others stand, but it could probably bear to be shortened - you're in the animation for at least 3 seconds.

For better or worse, that's really all I have on it right now. 

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

5 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I don't dislike the idea of having F2 and F3 being Spear and Urn, while the Elite is the loadout swap. We lose the endurance regain tho. How would you address that? Having it on the elite too would be bad, since I may need to get endurance without swapping the skills. Plus I wouldn't be able to get endurance in other stances. 

Maybe F2 is Energy Meld, F3 is Spear and F4 is Urn? With Elite for loadout? That may work. 
 

This, this is a great suggestion. I'¡ve already gotten used to energy meld with Shiro/Jalis. I wouldn't like to lose it, I don't think it's as bad as people say, though I would reduce the energy cost to 20 instead of 25 to make it a bit cheaper to use.

 

Having the Spear and Urn always avaliable would also make them a true alliance since they would be usable with any other legend. Elite with loadout swap makes a lot more sense because if the effect is unique to that legend, it should BE on that legend to begin with.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

(Double post)

Edited September 24, 2021 by Vennyhedgie.5369
Double post

[X Anthony A.8409]

On 9/22/2021 at 9:26 PM, Barraind.7324 said:

 

I have to find links for it again, but the last update I saw was

 

Shiro/Dorf - 31k 

Alliance/Shiro - 29.5k 

really because i tried youtubing vindicator benchmark and nothing comes up, but ele and warrior benchmarks exist, meanwhile all you hear is people upset about willbender when it benchmarks at 37k dps and yet revenant still doesn't have a good power dps class if 30k is its actual benchmark that is pretty sad 

[X Anthony A.8409]

5 hours ago, Hooglese.4860 said:

Alright, this is a big list of feedback. I get that I'm yelling into the void but sometimes that's good for the soul.

 

Core Mechanic (Dodge)

The change to the dodge is interesting because it works for rev due to all of the professions defensive options from weapon skills, however there's a lot to be desired. The grandmaster traits changing the endurance count and ability is an interesting idea but I don't think it works due to the way the game's been designed. Some things in the game simply must be dodged or you die and you want to be not dodging as long as possible so the choice that gives you more frequent, shorter dodges is going to be the best choice.

I think the idea of having 3 choices is fun though, although Vassals of the Empire fills the same role as Forerunner of Death and there's going to be an objectively best option between these two option. Vassals of the Empire could be a mobility or condition damage oriented dodge since the others are damage and defence. Ex: You move 50% faster while dodging.

 

 

Skills

• Alliance Tactics/Energy Meld (F2):  This is a poorly implemented ability. It has a cast time, moderate cost and long cooldown to gain 50 energy for your 50-150 energy pool. This ability should have both cost and cd however it shouldn't have a cast time since dodging is something that you need to do in an emergency. It would also be nice if it filled your endurance for a variable cost depending on your max endurance but that's not happening.

 

Energy meld and Alliance Tactics should also be separated. When you're in the alliance stance you might need the energy for the dodge but don't want to swap skills and vice versa. It would also fix the CD issue with Leviathan Strength.

Greatsword:

The base criticism of it is that it's damage is low and while that's true, its also lacking the defence and control options that other weapons provide. It would be nice if phatom's onslaught provided vigor at the cost of more energy.

1. The auto attack chain is literally just the reapers and that' s disappointing.
2. Phantoms Onslaught (3): The visuals of the skill are almost non-existent. You run forward with a mist filter over you then you do a basic swing. There are enough visuals for greatswords in the game that this is just lazy. The distance charged is also quite slow in comparison to the other options revenants have at their disposal.
3. Imperial Guard/Truestrike (4): The visuals for Truestrike are also extremely lacking. It's just a normal attack. The cost and cooldown of this ability is also far too high.
4. Eternity's Requiem (5): I'm unsure if this was just for me but the circles were almost invisible to see. Not as a defender but as an attacker.

Legendary Alliance:

The stance is Assassin Stance stapled onto Centaur Stance which might be the worst combination of stances you can take. Being an all in aggressor then switching to a self-sacrificing, all-in healer doesn't work because the latter requires you to get out of harms way which you can't do. I thought briefly of the profession as a tanky type however the Saint Viktor skills actively harm the Vindicator. This might be the worst part of the profession and needs to be looked at, if not fully reworked.  Many other's have said that Saint Viktor shouldn't be heal support skill set and I agree.

1. Selfless Spirit/Selfish Spirit: These two heal abilities are by far the worst in the profession. The long cast time is pointlessly cruel because it opens you up to being interrupted, and since its a channel, the CD goes on full cd. The choice to make it a 10s cd is interesting but the heal is simply too ineffective and shouldn't be a long channel or at least it should provide stability.
2. Nomad's Advance/ Battle Dance (6): Nomads Advance is too short of range and the cooldown is too long.
3. Scavenger Burst/Tree Song (7): These two skills are interesting but again they're really weak with high energy costs for very little pay off. Tree song should also provide Vigor instead of regeneration since there is a vigor trait but no way in Alliance stance to gain it.
4. Reaver's Rage/Awakening (8): Again, weak. The stability given is so small that it's not noticeable. Awakening should also provide stability to all allies as well as yourself.
5. Spear of Archemorus/ Urn of Saint Viktor: These elite skills are abysmal. The spear doesn't pierce and does such little damage that it's not worth casting. The Urn is maybe the worst ability in GW2. It costs health, 10 upkeep and you cant heal while its active. On top of that you have to succeed at a 1s cast time to disable it, all for a mild heal and resistance. There should not be a cast time to negate such a heavy cost that you impose on yourself. I understand that requires a rework and we won't see that but in it's current state it's baffling. It requires you to be in the front line but not take damage or get disabled, which is what happens when your in the front line.

Traits

The GM are the core mechanic so I won't go over them again.

1. Leviathan Strength: This talent requires you to be in Alliance Stance but is really good. If they split Alliance Tactics and Energy Meld then this would be a well made talent.
2. Amnesty of Shing Jea: This talent is competing with Leviathan Strength for the same slot but both are only boosting Alliance Stance. The boons should also be swapped because Luxon skills are violence oriented and Kurzick are heal oriented. As it is though, it's a mediocre trait but either it or Leviathan Strength should be put into the major line. That or rework this one.
3. Reaver's Curse, Angsiyan's Trust and Song of Arboreum. All these talents increase your endurance pool without changing your play style. One will always be the best option and at the moment Song of Arboreum is winning. 
4. Angsiyan's Trust: This trait shouldn't give allies any endurance and give the vindicator more. The debuff shows that there's a potential for a problem so why not just make it give a large amount of energy to the Vindicator? Ideally, again, full rework because of point 3.
5. Song of Arboreum: This is a really good trait and a really good idea for Vindicator. However there is no vigor in the Vindicator specialization outside of this trait. I get that Vigor is a strong boon but there are a lot of places that it could be placed. (Any of the greatsword skills, replace it with the other strong boons in the Kurzick skills).
6. Vassal of the Empire: Again, this needs to be fully reworked. Forerunner and this are going to be contention for the same role in the same slot. Ideally, it should give superspeed and chill on land for a more PvP oriented GM trait.

• TLDR: There's promise here but the spec is weak and messy. Numbers need to go up and traits/skills need to be tightened up. 

I agree that the spec does feel weak and numbers need to go up would like to see this class hitting at least 40k dps to be on par with its condition spec renegade as herald = support renegade = condition, and what is vindicator suppose to be i thought mainly power focused as rev lacks a power elite spec wep and build

 

[Caligrafers Blade.3871]

Kudos to the community and especially dedicated rev players for the effort and love towards a creating a better elite. It's inspired me too to come up with some ideas. Here's my  humble contribution. 

 

Summoning, not Flip

In Alliance, summon the complimentary spirit to fight alongside you when you enter combat. 

Arch: Behaves like ranger pets, has a set of skills and attacks on his own. 

Vik: Behave likes engi's old gyros, follows you around and pulses heal/vigor/prot. Something like Kalla's elite spirit but moving. 

F2 now allows you to swap places with the other summoned spirit, pretty much like mesmers and their clones, leaving behind the spirit you were channeling, giving you a new position and skills on the utility bar. So if you were on Vik and Acrh was fighting along wth you, swap to Arch and get his skills while Vik appears to watch your back.

This should help solve the high energy drain, confusing utilities bar of mixed legend skills, and the CD's that can just stay. 

The spirits disappear when you switch out of Alliance. In this case, F2 will now summon both spirits who will each quickly execute/fire off 1 powerful skill based on the core legend before disappearing back into the mists. No swap allowed here. 

 

Interchange Endurance

While this may seem counterintuitive, the dps dodge actually require less endurance instead of more. Case in point, daredevil with Bound something. Such high endurance, and therefore wait time to fill up, is a massive dps loss.

The healing dodge on the other hand can afford to be long since there's more than one way to heal consistently. 

This redistribution will now justify being vulnerable or susceptable post dodge for Death Drop, which also makes it a high reward/high skill but provides faster access to the much needed evades in pvp modes at the same time. 

On the other hand, Saint's Shield will need maybe some stab or distortion on drop considering it's high endurance.

 

More Fury, CC 

On both uilities and GS. 

 

Upkeep/Elites

Arch needs to hurl or summon a host of spears, like Virtuoso does daggers. A whole rain of them for a devastating AoE, with mist portals and all! 

One of his skills can also be an upkeep if we go with the summoning idea, and maybe pulse fury or increase ferocuty but take more damage. 

On Vik, can he boon support with defensive boons like prot, vigor, regen, resist, resoluton and I daresay aegis pulsing off the urn? Make it random maybe and stationary too.  

    

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Caligrafers Blade.3871

[illuminosity.8537]

Short feedback from me (anything but a rev main). With the nature of the alliance stance, and the ability to spec it as a decent healer, you should give it a second weapon for its elite -- greatsword for dps focused play, and scepter or warhorn for a boon support role. Players could take both to lean into the duality, or take either one to focus on damage or support only -- and it would give rev an additional support weapon option other than the so so staff skills.

[Gambit.9501]

Here's some brief feedback I have after playing Vindi yesterday.  I did also write up a rework idea, but I figure that maybe the community here has already done enough of those and I can only imagine how swamped Arenanet's player feedback handlers must be right now, trying to extrapolate actual good feedback from all of the posts here.  So i'll just scrap what I wrote in that regard, and instead i'll just leave my shorter, more easily-readable thoughts.

Before I do that however, lemme just say first that I am fully in support of the idea of making F2 be a legend swap button for Legendary Alliance Stance, and instead making a new F3 skill for the spec, cuz I honestly hate the current setup.  You can basically only play support effectively with it; good luck making any damage builds with this legend.  Now then.

 

1. Nomad's Advance I think is fine functionality-wise, but Battle Stance SHOULD NOT have a cast time; it should be instant cast.  The main reason why Shiro's Riposting Shadows works so well as a dodge skill is because there is no startup.  Seriously, WHY are we putting cast times on DODGE skills?  Stop that!  Bad!  It kills flow!
    
2. Spear of Archemorus should be changed to be an Upkeep skill, in which the activation (Spear of Archemorus - Aim) summons Arche to charge up/aim the spear, and the flipover (Spear of Archemorus - Throw) launches it and deals damage based on how much time passed while the Upkeep portion of the skill was active.
   
   Note: Making Arche's Elite into an Upkeep skill would at least keep it consistent in usage with its Kurzick equivalent.
   
   Otherwise, if the above suggestion is ignored, please at least consider the following: Spear of Archemorus imho takes way too long to charge up; half the time you wanna use it, your enemy might already be dead by the time it fires.  And to that end, the strike damage on it seems awfully low considering how long this skill takes to charge up.
    
3. Since there is an awful lack of CC on this spec, consider giving Reaver's Rage a 2 second Daze, and Drop Urn a 1 second Stun + minor damage.  Additionally, you could give Imperial Guard's True Strike skill a 1 sec Knockdown on hit, which gains an additional 1/4th sec of knockdown per block, up to a maximum of 3 seconds.
    
4. Also, speaking of True Strike, reduce its cast time to 1/2 sec.  3/4 sec is too sluggish.
    
5. DODGE FEEDBACK
   1. The Endurance Cost & Max, and drop speed, of Saint's Shield should be the default cost & speed of the Vindi's dodge in general; it feels the most fluid of all the dodges by a wide margin.  Saint's Shield and Imperial Impact would both cost 50 endurance: Both Saint's Shield and Death Drop would increase your Max endurance to 100, with Death Drop now costing 100 and the duration of Forerunner of Death being 10 secs, while Saint's Shield would be usable with 2 endurance charges like a regular dodge skill.
      
      Also, the dropping animation of the dodge SHOULD NOT ROOT YOU; this kills flow!
       
6. The visuals for Mist Unleashed look like they extend farther than the actual hitbox of the skill.  Increase the radius of the skill, maybe to 280?  Just so that it matches the graphics properly.
    
7. Why do Mist Unleashed and Eternity's Requiem have Fire damage and Electric damage respectively? (i.e. enemies use the fire death animation when killed by Mist Unleashed, and the electric death anim when killed by Eternity's Requiem)
   I actually quite like these skills, but this flavoring choice just seems so darned odd and out-of-place.
    
8. Empired Divided trait should also give increased healing power when a nearby ally is below 50% (instead of just yourself being below 50%).

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I'm going to focus my post on the support aspect of it as that is all I have played of it.

 

 

Numbers-wise, the Saint Viktor skills feel great. Having 2k ticks on Sefless Spirit feels really amazing. Tree Song is incredibly potent if used at 5 condis (getting 10k heal procs from it in WvW). Urn's healing is nice to have despite its drawbacks. It is also amazing to have a group stunbreak. Not to mention the dodge and its mega value. The additional 20% modifier makes heal Rev feel a bit more like its old self in WvW. These are all really valuable tools that fit wonderfully into a support spec. I would be stoked if I could take just a simple Saint Viktor legend, or to be able to pick and choose...though I feel like that would be the lazy way out.

 

The whole dual legend thing is just odd. The biggest upside I have felt to the mechanic is using the SV heal on allies and then using F2 to be able to use it again in 10 seconds. Otherwise, it felt meh. Throughout my whole playtime, it felt like I was just throwing away energy to cycle through skills to get to the ones I wanted. I particular, Scavenger Burst and Spear of Archemorus. I don't think that is good design, to force skills to be wasted...especially when they cost energy and incur a cooldown. I also found myself camping the Alliance legend a lot in order to wait for the cooldowns to come up, which seems to to against the intended vision of Revenant, which is shorter cooldowns with a playstyle meant to be optimized by swapping legends very frequently.

 

I would like to give some positive feedback regarding Urn of Saint Viktor because all I have seen is scathingly negative comments about it. Is it perfect? Far from it, but it does have potential and I would like to have it improved upon rather than be completely scrapped. So here are a few ideas.

• Lower its upkeep to 8. 
• Change the 0% incoming healing to 0% incoming healing from allies only. The urn shouldn't heal you but make it so you can still use your heal skill and able to profit from it.
• Increase its radius to 300.
• Remove the Slam flipover skill. There isn't much payoff and it makes the skill feel like a total liability to use. 
• If the skill feels like it lacks identity, make it grant an additional slam-like effect if dodging while the urn is active. 
• If you are absolutely insistent on keeping the Slam flipover skill in the game, reduce the cast time by a bit and remove the ICD it has after activating the urn. All core legends have around a .7s ICD and all facets have no ICD; meanwhile Slam Urn has around a ~1.7s ICD. Without alacrity and quickness, you are forced to eat 3 ticks of damage if you are simply trying to pulse it, which is significant as you are also negating any healing.

 

Now some other feedback...

 

Alliance Tactics feels half-baked. Feels like they should be separated so your energy isn't punished so much for wanting to access the other Alliance legend. I also agree with others that it is odd that it favors the Alliance Stance so much. I read a post from somebody suggesting that instead of the F2 swapping the Alliance skills, there could instead be a flipover skill lasting for X seconds after using an Alliance skill that will have you swap skills; otherwise your current skill will persist. I quite liked that idea (Ex: You use Tree Song and for 3 seconds after using it, you have the option of flipping it over to grant access to Scavenger Burst. If you don't use it within 3s, the flipover skill will disappear and you will stay on Tree Song).

 

The aftercast and vulnerability frames in the dodge makes it feel less good. Assuming that the vuln frames are an oversight.

 

As I have mentioned in a previous post, please reduce ALL dodges to 50 endurance and adjust their effects accordingly.

 

All of the master traits feel like different iterations of the same thing. Literally just delete/consolidate Reaver's Curse & Angsiyan's Trust and introduce another more offensive option.

 

Why does Redemptor's Sermon exist? You balance devs have spoken so much about wanting to remove passive gameplay and this trait is exactly that and you are introducing it to be released in 2022! It adds no depth to the class, hogs up a trait slot, and is conditional based on health despite being arguably more important for the condition cleanse aspect.

 

2 traits are dedicated exclusively to the Legendary Alliance Stance. What happened to not wanting to obviously favor a specific legend within a traitline? I get there should be strong synergy for the e-spec's corresponding legend, but the traits should not be completely useless if using only core legends. Glint upkeep traits are actually well designed because they still bring major value to the core legends as the upkeeps are a key component to each legend. 

 

The animations are very low effort. Very lackluster visual effects. Skill icons across the board lack detail/depth. Trait icon background colors are inconsistent with both previous e-specs. Poor 'ol Saint Viktor that appears after his urn is slammed on the ground looks like a derpy stretched out Catmander tag. The legend swap image is a straight up insult to artistic integrity and an absolute eyesore to behold. Since when was this game's visual taste geared towards 6 year olds? **looks at Magic weapons** Oh wait...

 

Okay, I may be a bit harsh on the visual aspect of it, but I am a judgmental art snob so I can't help myself. And hey, we had neon ravekittens for our last legend, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

 

Long story short, I think the spec has potential, but it needs a lot of iteration. It feels like an alpha version of the spec. God bless whoever decided to delay EoD release date, because if y'all actually released EoD in Q4 2021, the e-specs would be a dumpsterfire of half-baked disappointment. 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[GlowingMoth.1063]

i got nothing to complain other than that the dodge is not a full evade frame, and when you kite in pvp you won't land those normal dodge jumps with it. i would love to see a change where red elite will be a upkeep skill cause then you have two upkeeps in each alliance and you will be able to synergise with other traits that requires constant legend swaps.

another point i want to give is, speed up some animations. like gs5 most of it needs to be consistantly ccd in pvp and classes with two dodges will just double dodge it. as of right now the best way i find to kill ppl with gs5 is to taunt/shiro elite and legend swap instantly and in general the best way i found to kill people is to just play like herald and autoattack people. (cause of how slow the animations are compared to AA chain value.)

another thing i noticed was that gs4 is completely lacking in radius in pvp. i could stand right next to a player with no blind block or dodge and it still wont land if i lined up perfectly. so look over that aswell in pvp & wvw.

Edited September 24, 2021 by La belladone.6579

[wolfyrik.2017]

Been think about how to keep flipping but make it managable, keeping flow of combat, without dropping the gw1 references.

Earlier I suggested making the heal skill flip all utils to Viktor, Elite flips all skills to Arche. I reckon this, but make the whole elite flip, with effects that carry on into other legends. Traits would customise this effect. For now I'll call this active whole legend Flip Ascendance....for want of a better word. ie one of the alliance is always in power over the other, affecting passive bonuses, dodge type and utilities if alliance legend is active. Maybe you get additional boons or damage effects/condis while Arche runs the show.

Some examples of changes:

- Heal becomes Urn of Saint Viktor, since it already stops selfheal and drains 10 Energy, why does it also need to drain health? The high energy costs of all skills already make it's use punishing. Drop the health drain, keep the other effects intact. Dropping should be interruptable for counterplay. The moment you press the heal, you become the urn starting the channel. If you wanto heal others, you keep it, you want a personal heal, you drop it and gain personal health. Add a basic condi cleanse on use. This flips utils to Viki. Vik utils stay roughly the same.

- Spear Elite remains roughly the same but flips utils to Arche

- Dodge. You get the Dodge of the whomever is acendance. Arche gives the full on attack Hop (modified, right now it's not good) Viki gives the full on heal Hop.  Grandmaster traits allow you to ignore this 1. Forces Attack no matter who is in ascendance 2. Is the default 3. Forces Heal Hop.

- F2 Swaps ascendance when you're in another legend and so usable even if you don't take the alliance Legend at all. You still get other changes to gameplay.

- Traits. Roughly work as they are now except for grandmaster but enhancing stats or effects depending who is in ascendance. I had thought maybe middle line should copy the existing pattern most seen in the present GMs, being a middleground between top and bottom.

It's not fleshed out. Just a thought which I feel would take eyes off the UI in combat, make it flow more easily, give better access to skills without dropping the flip entirely.

Edited September 24, 2021 by wolfyrik.2017
Spelling

[Axl.8924]

10 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

It actually can and can compete in a very interesing non punishive way, and i think i know a way to fix the clunkiness of the skills system.

What if the elite skill would be what activate the alliance swapping between Arch/Victor skills like u were swapping combat modes or techniques?

 

The current skill system is weird cause limits the builds victor is more supportish while scales awfully with stats so thats punishing power players that want to focus on Arch(they have to go trrough vic skills and the f2 swap thing felt pretty forced solution), elite could be like the combat stance that the players could change their combat style in the alliance legend like a call out to the  allied warrior.

Arch utils would have Victor urn as elite skills which would be similar to the Arch spear ghost but using a shield that would reduce damage around target.

Victor utils would have Arch as elite as a callout would activate the same effect and swap from Victor utils to Arch.

This way would be less clunky and less penalty in stats vs gameplay.

F2 could be something else, like a dive in aoe leap that would make damage on Arch and aoe heal drop landing with Victor.

And a same effect F2 for non Alliance legend which would be a teleport outside Alliance. 

 

 

 

Sorry the bad english, my english is getting 404's today....

 

 

The way i see it the actual skills themselves look underpowered.

This line reads like this:

• Amnesty of Shing Jea — Legendary Alliance abilities gain an additional bonus. Activating F2 grants both of these bonuses simultaneously. Luxon abilities grant regeneration in an area around you. Kurzick abilities grant might in an area around you.

 

If its supposed to be support il admit regen is nice really nice but a few stacks of might isn't great, unless you could rapidly build it up for everyone to the point of maxing might stacks by using the abilities.

I have a feeling this was meant to be a hybrid. its got dps weapons and no support.

I did notice a small amount of damage from urn of saint victor and it changes to being able to use urn after spear of archemorus

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Kidel.2057]

58 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

As I have mentioned in a previous post, please reduce ALL dodges to 50 endurance and adjust their effects accordingly.

Yes, absolutely. 75-100 at best. I'd get a weak dodge available when needed over a super slow and powerful one that's never up. 

They should be 50-75-100 instead of the current 50-100-150. 

The rest of the post is also gold. Had to comment. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Jijimuge.4675]

I'm not a rev main, but the spec was interesting.

Pros

The greatsword skills.  I know the animations are used elsewhere, but I found them OK

The lore

The idea of having a hybrid spec (area dps/healing) is a nice one, IMO, though the numbers may need to be tweaked to get this to work correctly (hopefully it can work that way). 

 

Cons

The F2 and the switching mechanic
It feels clunky to have to use the flip skill (or to flip it using the F2).  Rather than having a hard lock on the skill type one likes, I'd have favoured some kind of "soft" lock i.e. maybe something like not flipping each skill on use, but making the energy cost go up as one uses it each time until one uses the F2 to flip one's skills to the other hero e.g. the first time one uses Scavenger Burst, it costs 10, then 15, then 20 etc. until one uses the F2 to flip all the legend skills to Saint Victor.
Some kind of change is needed at any rate, as the flow of one's utilities here feels too rigid IMO.  I'd often find myself using a legend skill not because it was useful, but just to make sure I had access to the one I wanted - felt weird...
Alternatively, instead of an "F2", maybe have an "F2" for "Invoke Archemorus" and F3 for "Invoke Saint Viktor" to flip all one's skills to that hero's set?  With long enough cooldowns (and energy cost) on them of course to encourage hybrid play.

Some aspects of the dodge/jumps
The idea is quite fun and the leaps are dramatic, but the endurance requirement on "Death Drop" is very punishing.  From a dps perspective, I'm not sure it's worth it given how long the leap takes.  Would it also make sense to have some kind of stun on "Death Drop"?  That would allow the rev to capitalise on the buff from "Forerunner of Death"
Should the landing "impact" art be different for the 3 different dodge styles?  Currrently they all look the same and given how different they are in function, I think they should look different .

The "over the head" art for the switch to Alliance stance - the colours are too intense and it's done in too cartoony a style IMO - not a fan of it.  The 2 heros of the Alliance should have accents of their signature colours, but to be exclusively in those colours just looks garish to my eye

The elites
The art for "Spear of Archemorus" is nice, but the skill feels lowish impact
Re "Urn of Saint Victor", the description is very odd - "Become" the urn?  Surely something like "Take up" would be better here?  Given the "bundle" skills in GW1 that rit used to have (that prevented attacks), it feels weird to have the urn levitate in front of one with one still able to attack, but w/e
The "urn" of Saint Victor is also not an urn, looking at the art - it's apparently a chest/coffer.  Although the art is nice, it doesn't depict an urn....
As I mentioned in an earlier post, as "Spear of Archemorus" requires a target, one's only way of switching to the Urn when no targets are around is to either use one's F2 or to brutally assault a nearby rabbit or other critter with Archemorus' full power (!)

Edit : Forgot to mention that the F2 outside of Alliance Stance feels really low impact - 25 energy and 20 second CD on Alliance Tactics for just 50 endurance is just awful (that's 1/3 of the endurance needed for "Death drop"!)

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Jijimuge.4675
Added comment re F2 outside of Alliance legend

[alex.8417]

I want to say that I'm not a fan of the Vindicator, I don't want to offend fans of the specialization, it reminds me more of a Warrior than a true Ritualist descendant for an expansion on Cantha. Because I don't see any link in his mechanics that reminds us of ("Item spell" Urn, Ritual Spirit and Weapon spell) the only thing that reminds me of RIT is the link to the "Celestial Summoning" skill given by Kuunavang.

 

However I like very much that you can play 2 legends ❤️.

 

For the traits I have nothing else to add, since everything has been said.

However, there is one thing that I don't like at all except for the care that I find weak and that needs to be fixed, it's the elite skill "Urn of Saint Viktor" which for me really needs a complete overhaul, let me explain.

 

The urn gives us very powerful bonuses but insufficient to be really useful for his group, moreover the mechanism of loss of life point and counter productive since it gives you more the role of burden than a real support. But I really liked the visual effect of the skill and I would like to keep it, however the skill itself does not honor it.

What I would like to see soon on "Urn of Saint Viktor" .

is that we remove the loss of life points and reduce the maintenance cost of the skill, or that this skill becomes a "Kit" or a "Tome" like the "Firebrand"🙏.

 

If the skill "Urn of Saint Viktor" ends up becoming a Kit or Tome, I would like it to focus on powerful support and healing skills and Barrier with boons like (Protection, Aegis, Resolve, Regeneration and Vigor) and that among the skills we have the possibility to summon the spirit of Saint Viktor, because I find it completely unfair that we can summon the spirit of Archemorus on one side but not the Spirit of Saint Viktor on the other, plus the GS is only used for the offensive aspect.

 

What I can imagine is that the summon the Spirit of Saint Viktor is a powerful dome that destroys projectiles like "Shield of Absorption" of the Guardian, or that it gives us barrier at each pulse like "Bulwark Gyro" of the Scrapper for a short time.

 

I hope it's not too late, because I would really like this support aspect of Saint Viktor to remind us vaguely of its ancestor RIT from GW1 in the "Restoration Magic" art, since it seems to be focused on healing and support.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Restoration_Magic#Restoration_Magic_skills

 

I recall that the competition in the field of support is great if we must compare it to (Guardian, Firebrand, Druid and Scourge etc.) it must stand out to have its place in the competitive mode and not only the PVP.

[Axl.8924]

12 minutes ago, alex.8417 said:

I want to say that I'm not a fan of the Vindicator, I don't want to offend fans of the specialization, it reminds me more of a Warrior than a true Ritualist descendant for an expansion on Cantha. Because I don't see any link in his mechanics that reminds us of ("Item spell" Urn, Ritual Spirit and Weapon spell) the only thing that reminds me of RIT is the link to the "Celestial Summoning" skill given by Kuunavang.

 

However I like very much that you can play 2 legends ❤️.

 

For the traits I have nothing else to add, since everything has been said.

However, there is one thing that I don't like at all except for the care that I find weak and that needs to be fixed, it's the elite skill "Urn of Saint Viktor" which for me really needs a complete overhaul, let me explain.

 

The urn gives us very powerful bonuses but insufficient to be really useful for his group, moreover the mechanism of loss of life point and counter productive since it gives you more the role of burden than a real support. But I really liked the visual effect of the skill and I would like to keep it, however the skill itself does not honor it.

What I would like to see soon on "Urn of Saint Viktor" .

is that we remove the loss of life points and reduce the maintenance cost of the skill, or that this skill becomes a "Kit" or a "Tome" like the "Firebrand"🙏.

 

If the skill "Urn of Saint Viktor" ends up becoming a Kit or Tome, I would like it to focus on powerful support and healing skills and Barrier with boons like (Protection, Aegis, Resolve, Regeneration and Vigor) and that among the skills we have the possibility to summon the spirit of Saint Viktor, because I find it completely unfair that we can summon the spirit of Archemorus on one side but not the Spirit of Saint Viktor on the other, plus the GS is only used for the offensive aspect.

 

What I can imagine is that the summon the Spirit of Saint Viktor is a powerful dome that destroys projectiles like "Shield of Absorption" of the Guardian, or that it gives us barrier at each pulse like "Bulwark Gyro" of the Scrapper for a short time.

 

I hope it's not too late, because I would really like this support aspect of Saint Viktor to remind us vaguely of its ancestor RIT from GW1 in the "Restoration Magic" art, since it seems to be focused on healing and support.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Restoration_Magic#Restoration_Magic_skills

 

I recall that the competition in the field of support is great if we must compare it to (Guardian, Firebrand, Druid and Scourge etc.) it must stand out to have its place in the competitive mode and not only the PVP.

 

If it worked with that and if you had the build thing that gives barriers work with other healing, i can see rev competing with scourge for barrier spam.

[Bazsi.2734]

My PvP experience: after playing it for quite a while(way more than the new ele or warrior, because I felt like its needed), this is the spec I like the most out of this beta. It's still not good enough to be viable in PvP, however it's not that far off.
If the leaps/charges would be actual 900 distance gapclosers/disengages, that would maybe put this specs offensive variant into the viable zone. Haven't tried support though, as the spec has insufficient tools to deal with getting focused, and a support does need to bunker engagements from time to time.

Vindicator lacks CC, lacks condition management, lacks damage immunities, but has potential to deal a great deal of damage. As I said, with some added combat mobility this could work. The only thing I really dislike is the dodge animation. It renders as flyhacking on other peoples screen many times, and on your screen you just disappear... I hope this is just a placeholder.

[Kidel.2057]

The biggest hope is that Vindicator seems to be in a pre-alpha stage. 

- Legend Artwork is huge and so different in style and quality
- No trait artwork
- Skill descriptions are copypasted from elsewhere (see gs5)
- No new animations
- Damage, cooldowns, upkeep and numbers in general are completely random

Looks like something put together quickly before the beta just to have something. 

This gives me hope they can still totally rework Alliance and F2 based on the overwhelming feedback. If they don't it means that Beta events are useless. 

[Zaret.1450]

13 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Just to be clear I’m talking *specifically* about WvW/PvP when I say “it’s to allow hybrid builds to exist.”  The amount of condis on the Alliance skills are actually enough to help support condi/hybrid builds in those modes (obviously not PvE). 

There are condis on GS. Chill -> Abyssal Chill -> Torment.  Since it has some defense baked in GS could replace S/X or Staff in condi/hybrid competitive buildS

also Renegade only has condis on Razorclaw in its utilities which is almost never useful in competitive.  Alliance actually has more condis in its skills than Ren. And ofc Shortbow is a condi weapon, yet it’s still used for its power damage mostly in Competitive.  Things don’t have to be hyper focused to be useful in a variety of builds in non-PvE modes. 

Herald can do it, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be able to do it with the new spec too?  Kind of like how you can play Mirage as power in Competitive modes despite it being designed as a condi spec and there also being a a power spec (chrono) released before it.  

They’re not holding back Vindicator because of 5 stacks of Torment on the elite and burn on one of the utils. They’re holding back because it’s undertuned and they clearly haven’t done much testing with the spec yet to realize that.  It’ll be fine once they buff the numbers before the next beta.  They can provide meaningful choices for wvw/pvp within the kit while also providing meaningful power DPS for all of PvE/wvw/pvp 

it’s funny you mention guardian though which has Burning literally baked into everything (including all of its high performance PvE power builds). Clearly having a few condis attached to skills doesn’t hold back a spec from performing well.  And why should it since condis don’t scale with power/precision/ferocity anyway??  What holds back the spec is the developers not buffing the power coefficients enough to be viable, not having 5 stacks of torment and 1 stack of burning attached to two skills 

 

okay ill admit youre right, i dont know that much of wvw or pvp or hibrid builds so i thought vindi would be worse than rene or herald.

[Zaret.1450]

One thing id like to see is a dev or someone from anet comenting on the post. Something like, "Ok we are listening to the feedback and we might be able to chsnge this or that, or maybe choosing some proposals and letting us vote, like.

options for dodge anet can implement:

1 you can dodge once and dodging again makes you land

2 on some traits you get a shorter dodge so you get dmg modifiers/heal/barrier faster but also being more exposed

3all traits on dodge make them 75 instead of 100 so you can dodge more and also buffs/dmg/heal are incemented.

and then we can vote one.

I know its a huge work and also they would have to do it for each elite, but i thik its worth, also betas were of 3 elites each so work would be better distributed and last beta with all elites would be just a last minute tune like a bit bigger numbers here or less numbers here.