Siv.4351 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) Super excited when I crafted Twilight then uh, a little birdy told me rev was getting GS. Peak hype achieved. That said, cruel reality has struck. Lets get into it. Legendary Alliance Stance: Dual Legends sounds much more exciting on paper than in practice, but this can easily be fixed with tuning/changes. The cooldowns on utility flips are infuriating and serve no purpose the energy system shouldn't already solve. Profession Mechanic: Underwhelming, compared to other elite specs. I was really hoping there was a similar signature skill like Citadel Bombardment where you would summon both legends to deliver an attack on an enemy, just like they did our boy Shiro back in the day, but sadly, no. The F2 Energy->Endurance on non Alliance legends is just flat out boring. This skill screams bandaid fix for an introduced problem. Greatsword: Obviously under tuned. Zero CC on it. Same for the Legend skills for that matter. Something throws up a blue bar or they're about to deliver an attack you want to CC? Pray to the six you didn't just swap into GS+Alliance. On top of that, It's slow, does pitiful damage, animations I hope aren't final and begs to be used for aoe but has nothing to support it. Perhaps a small pull on GS3 (or a dodge) to help group things up for the followup aoe on every other skill you have? - GS2 does have some weirdness with the direction of the aoe when moving. Seems to actually do the effect partway through the animation. Could be ping related idk, it's not like I can just turn off my 'straya handicap to test thoroughly. - GS3 is well documented to not cover the range listed. Also has some weirdness with elevation and missing the final hit. - GS4 is clunky to use and downright impossible with ping. - GS5 is interesting, if hard to actually see it going off and where. Utility: As said, the cooldowns imposed on flips is clunky and ruins any sort of flow going on with the spec. - Nomad's Advance- The lunge is great if a little redundant because of GS3 and its short CD. Flipping over to Battle Dance we have a skill that does what it says on the tin. Neat. - Scavenger Burst- Quickness on this I love to see. Was really hoping Vindicator would have a support build with quickness/boonshare or healing but alas there's just not enough here. Flipping over to Treesong we have probably the only skill I think is above average in the entire kit. - Reaver's Rage- Stunbreak with aoe attack and stab and fury and oh what’s this it’s an aoe stunbreak? Yes, dear gods all of my yes. Flip over to Awakening which stunbreaks and 4secs of prot. Yawn. Elite: Oh boy. As basically every single person has figured out by now- Urn is terrible. Spear is not far behind it to be honest. Traits: I feel this is where the class falls apart the most. - Two of the adept traits do nothing outside of Alliance stance. Red flag right here. In fact, if you run Leviathan’s Strength without Alliance slotted, you increase the cooldown on F2 for no benefit whatsoever. Big Oof, as the kids say. - All the master traits focus on mitigating the issue of only having a single dodge. Song of Arboreum is so clearly the default here and should honestly be one of the minors (with tuning). - Forerunner of Death is just awful. Everyone hates it for numerous reasons and they're all correct. I'd love to see the dmg buff from this given the Kalla’s Fervor treatment and the dodge becomes a selfish dps burst+boon but I don't think it'll happen. A man can dream though. (side note- burning your only dodge to upkeep a dmg buff and being left open to the multitudes of aoe enemies poops out in this game is just gross) - Vassals of the Empire is interesting and there's a neat build where you can keep up a whole host of boons on yourself. I don't feel as though this offers enough to warrant a GM trait all by itself. You could bake this in with Saint of zu Heltzer and do a quick tuning pass and I would not fault you for it. - Saint of zu Heltzer is fun and gets my support healer build senses all tingling. It is a little silly constantly hopping up and down all over the place. Overall, I'm very uninspired with the elite spec, which is a real shame. It needs more oomph. Less fighting the systems introduced and more utilising them in an engaging, fun way. The dodge isn't as bad as I had thought but needs less pressure on traits & a sigil to carry it. There is some serious potential for some very interesting, effective & fun builds. I think this beta you've gone a bit too light handed with things and need to put more focus on the spec's identity and place in the game. The most fun/effectiveness I've managed to have with the spec is by ignoring Alliance stance and just going Shiro/Jalis. It slaps. All that said, I can't wait to see what comes next with the Vindicator. Edited September 25, 2021 by Siv.4351 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlin Sanders.3587 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 Honestly the utility skills flipping is a cool mechanic on paper but in practice is impractical and makes the specialization lose focus. I would prefer if the flipping mechanic was entirely devoted to the F2 ability - switching between modes basically, as if archemorus was tagging out with saint viktor and vice versa. Moreover I feel that the "hybrid support" focus is too much for this class, as its other specializations already do this. As such I would recommend changing the spec to be much more "DPS" focused, with archemorus being the "Power" DPS and Saint Viktor being the "Condition damage" DPS. Moreover i feel that both should also include defensive traits or usages, such as movement or providing barrier in order to counter the dodge mechanic being used only once every X seconds. Speaking of, if one plans to introduce only one dodge to the class one should also make such a sacrifice far more worth it, as this will already result in the fact that the revenant will be taking a lot more damage. perhaps add unique mechanics not seen in other classes, such as long knockdown times or creating a field of healing. make it so the dodge isn't just a dodge but also a part of the revenants offensive arsenal. lastly the greatsword honestly feels underwhelming compared to other specs/professions that have access to the weapon. mainly raising its power and adding on additional effects, such as conditions based on your legend(s) as well as perhaps make GS 4 block a little bit longer would help make it feel like a weapon with impact. All in all i'd rethink and redesign the elite specialization in order to give revenants something a bit different from its other elite specializations - herald gave support in boons, renegade was a hybrid of boons, conditions and power, vindicator should represent the other end of the spectrum and focus on power and conditions as its main goals, and with the dual legends of both saint viktor and archemorus I feel like it has the potential to be. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 The jumping is kinda cool il admit. It kinda makes me thinks of dragoons from early final fantasy, which is really neat. Its extremely unique and gs does have its own set of stuff that looks cool. I can see why its problematic, because if you have too high generation of enduracne you got a invincible jumping revenant dragoon since you could evade infinitely sorta like the way mirages exploited evades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhonti.5162 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) A question about traits. The traits such as in invocation that trigger on invoking legends but should it also not trigger on use of the F2 on vindicator? Basically on vindicator that is a legendswap aka invoking the other of the 2 legends available. Which kinda makes the build more fluid and the dodge faster available especially through spirit boon master trait Edited September 25, 2021 by Dhonti.5162 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithyy.3287 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 Urn skill is horrible. The dodge is slow and feels like it locks you in place afterwards. The dodge animation looks ridiculous on charr. Why do we have to leap ? Can't we pop into the mists and pop out again. And the spec generally is geared towards healing instead of DPS which is a real shame considering the support rev already offers on other specs. I know other people have said all of this but I reiterate because I think changes need to be made. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lydradon.3087 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) As many others here i want the Vindicator to be as good as it can be on Release-Day. So i tried my best as a Revenant Player to push this new Elite Spec to its limits. With over 9000 Hours Playtime on my Revenant alone, i think i got a got idea what im doing by now and where Arenanet wants the Vindicator to stand. This whole week i tried some different approaches and read nearly each post in this section, to get also other Points of View into my perception. The Huge Problems in the Room at the moment are "The flipping Skills" of the Legendary Alliance, "The different Dodges" and there viability and as with nearly every Class in this game, "Finetuning of the Damage Numbers". Legendary Alliance Skills: Selfish Spirit/Selfless Spirit: These 2 Heal skills are in my Eyes perfect for this class. 15700 Heal from Selfish spirit if you stay in 5 Enemies is a solid Selfheal in the midst of the fight and the same amount divided on 5 Players with Selfless Spirit. It Balances itself depending on the number of Enemies and Allies around you. The 6 Utility skills follow the same logic, you want to be in the midst of the Fight and in the enemies, to profit the most out of all of them. I was able to maintain 6 stacks of Stability and 25 might alone with Reaver´s Rage when i stood in 5+ Enemies (50% boonduration on my Set i used). Same was for Scavenger Burst i was able to Buff myself 15+ Seconds of Quickness inside of Enemy rich Fights, wich DPS can do that with the use of 1 Skill. Wich by the way is ranged and hits for 10k+. Now the Elite Skills. They need improvment, not much but: Spear of Archemorus needs some Improvment, from my Testing it needs to be Piercing, and to bring it on par with other Elites and be called an All or Nothing Shot, give it a 3 Second Stun for all Targets hit, up to 5 is fine (Vindicator needs a little bit cc, Defiancebar breaking is Mandatory since HoT). Urn of Saint Victor is very problematic, the idea to make it a Self-Killing ability wich lets profit your allies is interesting but can be in long fights very... unforgiving. Decrease the Damage from 5% per tick to 1%, like the effect states. Decrease the Energy Usage to -6 or maximum -7, from -10 (-10 isnt justified with the current effects). And for the second Part of the Skill, make Drop Urn of Saint Victor an Instant-Cast, so you have an "Oh-kitten-Button" if everything goes south. And for the Overall Performance of the Legendary Alliance split Archemorus and Saint Victor, keep the F2 Skill Energy Meld on all Legends (maybe decrease the energy cost to 20 or 15) and integrate an F3 with 15 Seconds CD that allows us to switch the Utility-Skills of the Legendary Alliance when we want, so we can be DPS when its Possible and Support when its necessary. ( I read about this wanted Change from many here, and stay behind that Community Request. We support Arenanets way that Revenant is a DPS and a Support, but let us Choose wich we wanna be in the Heat of the Battle for Tyria and dont Force us into it by Switching our Skills on every use). Dodges: Saint of zu Heltzer and Vassals of the Empire are Fine as they are. Very intuitiv, and helpfull in the midst of the Fight. Forerunner of Death needs tweaking, Decrease the Evade window from 3 seconds to 2 seconds, wich also should result in and Endurance cost decrease from 150 to 100. The other 2 Dodges should cost 50 for the Healdodge (unchanged) and 75 for the Support/Control Dodge (Evade Frames then also down to 1.5 seconds). Greatsword: I Love the Greatsword, its a long wanted Weapon and fits the Revenant/Vindicator perfectly. The Casttime of Mist Unleashed should be reduced from 3/4 second to 1/2 second and increase its range to the intended 480 (at the moment it only reaches to half the Impact animation. Fix Phantom´s Onslaught to reach the 900 Dash Range and include the Hidden Mechanic of generating Fury on Enemy-Hit (wich is the mostly unnoticed way of Fury and Might Generation of the Vindicator). Imperial Guard and True Strike: Make Imperial Guard Quickness Independent (probably a bug that quickness decrease the Block-Time) and True Strike needs a bit more Damage, Range and maybe a small CC (0,5 Second Stun per Stack of Imperial Guard accumulated during the block) All in All i Love the Vindicator and Hope Arenanet takes the best of the Feedback from us, the Community and improves the Vindicator based on our provided Feedback during this Beta. Edited September 25, 2021 by Lydradon.3087 5 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKitty.6120 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) (Note: Kitty's almost exclusive endgame PVE player so these insights are from that standpoint and focuses on DPS) From what Kitty figured out, the jump is kinda interesting part as you need it for the damage bonus if playing DPS. But it requires making it worth using it for DPS and currently it's...quite not. Since Vindicator is seriously lacking in offensive bonuses (15%+240 power vs 20%+7-11% of heral vs 15%+693 precision since rene can't dodge much either+2 BIG damage skills) compared to other e-specs and Alliance skills cost so much energy to use them that you can't really use weapon skills and them and as such, power Vindicator is about as strong as core revenant...but essentially loses dodges in the process and can't even refresh the energy to use more skills. And from what Kitty tested, good ol' Shiro+Jalis seems to still be the better option utility and dps-wise. Also, Kitty needs to emphasize that like Herald, Vindicator is very dependant on Roiling Mists-trait in Invocation or it needs to throw good portion of damage away by taking tons of extra precision so that also limits skill use quite a bit and thus damage. So, Kitty's suggestions (Kitty's spreadsheeted co-efficients and such): -Increased Spear of Archemorus' power co-efficient from ~2.2 to 4.0 due to its high energy cost. You can realistically use it only once per 18 seconds when playing DPS so even 4.5 wouldn't be too much as you need to use F2 to make it useable again and that makes the total energy cost 50 per use which is extremely high. Alternatively reduce the energy cost to 20 and increase to co-efficient to 3.2. -Reduce the energy cost of Reaver's Rage, Scavenger Burst and Nomad's Advance from 15 to 10 and increase their power co-efficients by 50%. Currently they do half of sword/greatsword skills' damage while costing more and you can't even use them for damage if you need them for utility. Doing those changes would make Alliance Stance an alternative to Dwarf Stance in instanced content Greatsword is currently pretty well balanced with revenant's other power damage option dual swords so there's no point in touching those. Then to traits which require quite a bit of boost if this spec wants to see any light in raids and fractals. -Forerunner of Death: Increase the damage bonus to 20% or even 25%. Since it's the main damage boost of the spec and Vindicator essentially trades all survivability for damage when DPSing, that would make Vindicator at least somewhat relevant option and even then you need to follow a specific rotation timing the bursts after dodge to get full advantage of it. Due to Vindicator's dodge taking a long time, it really needs to somehow compensate for that ~6-7 power coefficient lost in DPS uptime to get that boost. -Balance in Discord: Replace Regeneration with "Way of the Luxor: xxxx heal (similar to regen) or +10% Outgoing Healing, +10% Incoming Healing (9s)" and add "Way of the Kurzick: +10% damage (9s)" as 2nd effect and which effect is triggered depends on which heal you swap to in Alliance Stance by using F2 or what is the other stance you swap to. As DPS-specialized stances Assassin and Demon Stances would trigger damage bonus and Dwarf+Centaur Stances would trigger heal boost. Those changes alone would make Vindicator a lot more rewarding to play and that legend/Alliance heal based Balance in Discord would open another interesting gameplay element. Edited September 25, 2021 by LadyKitty.6120 4 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluukie.5701 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 First of all my first language isn't English so I'm sorry if the grammar is bad. I also primarily play PVE. I was super excited when I heard rev would get GS, but let's say that excitement has largely gone away after trying the spec for a couple of days. I like the vindicator on paper and the flipping between utility skills sounds very cool, but it doesn't work. It's clunky and feels odd to manage around, it honestly feels like an obstacle to having fun. Secondly the dodge has a lot of issues, it doesn't give enough benefits to justify having only one dodge that takes very long to charge imo. Also the urn elite has to be fixed, at this point it's basically a suicide button which is made worse by the dropping of the urn having a cast time. I also dislike the f2 skill, I would prefer the f2 to switch between the different utility skills or to lock them and not just to flip. Another thing I would like is that the f2 skill was different for the other legends (so you would have a little bit of uniqueness for the other legends) and not just the same skill for every single one. I am very disappointed because I would've liked to use this elite spec to explore Cantha, but this legend just doesn't feel fun to use at all. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorasnobody.9350 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 Beginning notes --------------------------------------------------------------- (As a small interjection before I begin, I will be giving feedback from the perspective of solo/open world play and PvE in general). As a bit of background on myself for this specialisation specifically, I have played Revenant since a few months after it was released in HoT. I fell in love with Revenant and then the good ol’ solo condi Herald dominated my game time and then I came back and fell in love with Renegade and that has been my main/most played spec to date! Onto Vindicator, it is a really fun spec? There might be elements of personal bias among my love for it. The leap mechanic feels interesting and not just a carbon copy of Mirage’s ambush, the Alliance skills feel fun and provide benefits (at least when I am solo) and making sure you are using your F2 properly to get the skills you want, when you need them takes a bit of practice. It is something I am still working on myself! It is quite refreshing to play and of course it has a greatsword and I cannot tell you HOW MUCH I SCREAMED WHEN REV GOT A GREATSWORD, AAHHHHHHGJKFNGJKDF. Back to the introduction, as much as I enjoy the spec I feel some parts of the spec feel a little clunky, counterproductive and straight up wasteful. Please note, my feedback on this spec might be a little more critical as it is my most anticipated but still all proposed changes will be in my opinion, plausible in the time scale from now to the release of EoD. (I am going to implement a different format of giving feedback to help get my points across in each section as a divided segment. I give full credit to @Geralt_Romalion on the gw2 subreddit for this format. Your catalyst feedback was great!) General utility notes --------------------------------------------------------------- The low costs and array of utilities are a nice shift away from the singular heavy costing ones of Renegade for example. It feels more interactive than Herald as well as you don’t just enable loads of upkeeps and just forget about them. Each utility has a really good use in an array of situations which for me at least keeps each encounter fresher and more interesting for longer. A problem I did run into when solo and it is really the only thing that majorly disappoints me about the utilities is that there is ZERO CC skills in Vindicator utilities or greatsword. Jalis has to be run on power for CCing or you will need to run staff and no one wants to run staff when you are sword/sword and greatsword on power Vindicator. Axe 4 and Axe 5 were carrying me for CC on condition Vindicator but I do not see condition vindicator being used in proper end game situations. I know Renegade is a tough act to follow as they are gods at CC, but at least 1 or 2 skills giving daze/stun would be great. To finish up utilities. I feel there is a running theme of “please fight five targets to make Vindicator the best it can” and you will never be doing that, especially not in raids/fractals. I mentioned this on Catalyst and it feels Vindicator has been hit with the same treatment in this case. Some parts of them just seem really disconnected to the rest of Vindicator and some boons that are provided would be better off being another type of boon. Archemorus --------------------------------------------------------------- Can I just say as a side note, the voice lines of both of these legends feel so good! The “Switch tactics!” and “It’s my turn!” just give me adrenaline when I’m in a fight. It makes me feel more connected to the legend instead of just channeling a legendary figure from the mists. Now onto this half’s utilities, I simply love them! They match the theme of Archemorus, very aggressive, wanting to rush the enemy and constantly being on the offensive, just waging war against your adversaries. Selfish Spirit > great as a smaller self-heal. I’ll be honest I’ve come to realise most Revenant heals on their own just feel lesser to most which is fine as you do have two heals whereas every other class only has one heal. The might it generates is nice for solo and the vulnerability works nice with generating battle scars especially if you are running Battle Scarred. Nomad’s Advance > probably the skill I used the least. I didn’t need to make much use of it in most cases except closing the gap. I got enough might from using Saint Viktor skills as well as leaping to get to 25 might and I have other ways to buffer the down time on might. However the first occurrence of an issue that persists through the utilities begins here, the target link. Hitting multiple targets being the most rewarding is a bit of a poor choice I feel. I mentioned this system in my Catalyst feedback as realistically you are never fighting more than 2 or 3 and when you are solo you tend to be 1v1ing tough mobs so this giving more might up to a cap of 5 targets feels a little wasted. Proposal: Add diminishing returns to the might this skill gives. If it stays at 5 targets make the first target give 3 might and subsequent targets give 1 might at a reduced duration. Or, change this so it’s 3 target cap and make the first target give 5 might and subsequent targets give 1 might at a further reduced duration. Scavenger burst > yes, yes, YEEEES. I really like this just being a form of ranged damage where you just lash out Archemorus’ rage inside you to just nuke a location. The burning on it also made me try condition Vindicator which I had the most fun with. The quickness feels good and the diminishing return on it is exactly what I want. Again though, the endurance regenerated is gated by hitting maximum targets, same issue as Nomad’s Advance. Despite me liking the burning on this for condi potential, Vindicator feels very power focused so the random burning feels out of place. Proposal: Move the fury generation off Reaver’s Rage onto this skill and remove the burning off it. This makes space for Reaver’s Rage to have additional effects as the condition damage feels a little confusing here. If you want to keep the condition damage whilst also moving the fury generation, lower it’s damage or duration. Add diminishing returns to the energy endurance. Let the first target give an inflated amount of energy return and subsequent targets give less. Reaver’s Rage > another amazing utility in my opinion. A 10 energy break stun that gives stability which is nice if a mob CC chains. The fury is also really nice especially when solo! However again, the extra stability and fury is at maximum potential when you hit 5 targets so again feels wasted. A cheap stun break is why I really love this; it lets me swap to Alliance stance after being knocked down and just slap R to break out efficiently without draining my entire energy pool. However, as stated above, the fury off this could be slotted elsewhere and this would be a perfect place for CC Proposal: With fury moved to Scavenger Burst it would allow for this skill to have some form of CC. As it has the theme of rage and just breaking out of impairing effects to fight back constantly I think this could have baseline stun/daze for 1 or 2 seconds and if you break a stun it does extra stun/daze so it still has a unique use when used as a break stun. Again, add diminishing returns. Reduce the initial stability and make the first target give maybe 2 stacks of stability and subsequent targets give 1 stack at a reduced duration. Spear of Archemorus > the visuals of this skill give me such joy! Seeing him just emerge from the mist behind you and hurl a spear at your target whilst you charge towards them feels so exhilarating. The damage feels good on it. It seems to have a tooltip error at the moment though as it does not cost 10 energy. I’ve only been able to cast this at 20 energy or above, a very minor oversight though! Much like Scavenger Burst, the torment on this just feels really random as if it was just a case of “throw something on there to give it another effect besides strike damage.” Proposal: Remove the torment off this and up the strike damage or make the torment have more of a place/use as it seems a little random. Also to go back to removing the torment, you could replace it with a 3 second stun. Thematically, Archemorus is emerging from the mist to hurl a spear of immense power at his foe. That much force would cause a debilitating impact so a stun would fit beautifully here. Saint Viktor --------------------------------------------------------------- The boon potential and healing from this half feels really great to balance out Vindicator for a happy medium of offense and defense. It provides strong utility overall as well as having great uses when solo. Selfless Spirit > a nice simple and effective heal. However, a very specific criticism I have on this is I don’t know why it heals the Vindicator too. Selfless to me would suggest they sacrifice their own sustainability to keep their allies around them alive instead. Proposal: Make this do no self-healing. I have never been one to hinder a skill as a suggestion but for the sake of Saint Viktor’s utilities theme, this makes sense not healing yourself. It could give higher healing to allies too or even give a boon. Extra regeneration here wouldn’t be a bad shout. Battle Dance > is a nice quick evade frame dash, always nice. The regeneration on this allows you to keep up permanent regen along with other utilities in Saint Viktor. The resistance though, I don’t get that much. It feels a little out of place and not really that impactful. I would never use this utility for the resistance it provides. Proposal: Change the resistance to vigor. Without one of Vindicator’s traits and Invocation with Song of the Mists GM traited and some elements of Retribution, you have no vigor access on a spec that has an entire class mechanic revolving around dodging more often. Tree song > I just loved using this skill. The condi cleanse is great, especially for solo, more regeneration, always nice to have as well. Much like its counterpart though, it has a niche gate on maximum endurance gain. Ideally when you are in a group situation, conditions get cleansed constantly and quickly before this will probably be able to cleanse so giving more endurance on each condition cleansed feels a little counterproductive. I don’t wanna be running into condition fields and taking them to the face just to make this generate extra resources. Proposal: Make the endurance you gain based on how many targets you grant regeneration to from this skill. There is Purifying Essence in Centaur that works exactly like this, that it heals based on conditions removed so I’m okay with more healing from more conditions removed but the endurance generated needs to not be gated by this. Also for some reason the visual on this just gives me blast finisher vibes, I’d love for this to be made a blast finisher! Awakening > I like this having more of a supportive variation to its counterpart. It isn’t just two break stuns that do the exact same thing but with different names. However, it does feel like a weaker version of “Stand your ground!” as it breaks only 5 allies out of CC and it doesn’t even give any follow up stab. The protection from it is nice though! Proposal:Simply make this give stability to allies as well upon using it so it has more group support. If you feel that makes it a little too unbalanced you could even remove it giving stability to the Vindicator to further tie into this set of utilities sacrificing self sustainability for ally bolstering. Urn of Saint Viktor > visuals? 10/10 I just love this thing floating above my head, explusing it’s magic to heal my allies. The boons when you smash it are nice also, aside from resistance. Again that boon just feels so wasted here. With how high risk it is, something like resistance being at 25% or below is a little lacklustre and I didn’t really feel the Urn’s ticking healing too much. I would kind of use this more alongside protection for 80% DR to avoid high damage. That sounds good but it’s a selfish reason when this elite is meant to be to support allies. Proposal: Turn the resistance into vigor and make each interval give one extra boon. So 75% you gain the regen, below 50% you gain regen, protection and maybe might? Then below 25% you gain regen, protection, might, vigor and two other boons-maybe keep the resistance and add resolution. It seems like a lot of boons but these could be on a lower duration and the high risk of going below 25% with internal ticking damage to the Vindicator and receiving no healing I would say demands a really good pay off. I don’t feel fulfilled, almost dying to give everyone resistance honestly. I was only testing this on about 700 healing power or so with celestials but the healing this gave when I dropped it also felt a little lacklustre for the risk you run of going below 25% so some base numbers/healing power scaling adjustments would be good! Also to give the Vindicator some stronger soft CC, let the drop part of this ability cause slow in an area around it’s smash. Hard CC here feels overkill with my other proposed changes but again in a sense of theme, you are smashing this powerful urn into the ground to expend its stored energies to heal and give boons, that intensity of an impact would cause some kind of shockwave that would hinder enemies from utilizing abilities in battle. Alliance tactics & leap mechanics --------------------------------------------------------------- Alliance tactics, I love and dislike. I love it in Alliance stance, any other stance, eh...I actually think getting to master this to know when to use it to get the utilities you want is a nice mini skill ceiling to get used to. It lets you do more while in Alliance stance and it providing energy while in Alliance stance lets you get more leaps off to better improve performance with different grandmaster traits. However, whenever you’re in any core Revenant specs it just being a “here is a free sigil of energy, kinda?” just feels sloppy and not thought through. As if it should have had more for each core spec but was scrapped and a filler button was added. I NEVER use Alliance tactics outside of Alliance stance as you get the energy and extra bonuses in Alliance stance. I know it’s meant to be more useful in Alliance tactics but I’d love to have a reason to use it outside of that stance too. Proposal: Either base or when traited into, make the F2 in specs aside from Alliance do more. An idea I had that could stretch into a very slight rework is to integrate Saint Viktor/Archemorus more so. Kalla lets you use her Citadel orders in all stances. For this at least it would work as follows (also excuse the lore complications that could arise).Shiro & Mallyx as these are both offensive orientated stances, the F2 could still refund energy but have Archemorus emerge from the mists and lacerate enemies in front of him to do a burst of strike damage in Shiro and torment damage in Mallyx respectively. Jalis & Centaur being utility/support style stances, the F2 could again give the energy refund but have Saint Viktor emerge from the mists and pulse boons inside Jalis (resolution/resistance/vigor maybe?) and healing inside Centaur. It would add a little more interest to using the F2 outside of Alliance stance as right now using Energy Meld just feels like I’m trolling myself. The leap mechanic as I mentioned is a nice take on turning the dodge key into something aggressive. I like what you can do with this and augmenting it with grandmaster traits makes it great for a damage booster that you need to constantly manage to keep up or a nice boon giver and vulnerability stacker which I found great when running battle scars. It turned this leap into a mini burst heal when I proc’d all the battle scars which shows nice synergy through the core Revenant specs. It gave me reason to try retribution too for more vigor/endurance regeneration which felt nice as I hardly touch that spec and I feel that spec could come into use for something such as a heal Vindicator. There is a small learning curve of making sure you don’t leap too much but also don’t leap too little to get a nice space in between which is good too! Also, kudos to this having a really nice animation. My friends told me you literally see the Vindicator go up into a mist portal then crash back down instead of just yeeting into the sky then landing again outta nowhere. A small issue I have found though, on uneven terrain, your character kinda bounces/wobbles up and down while in the air instead of properly ascending and then descending. It doesn’t break gameplay but would be something to iron out before release. Overall though, I don’t feel there is anything that needs to be changed with how the leap mechanics is at its core. Traits --------------------------------------------------------------- With these traits, I’m not sure how to feel about them. They seem useful in some cases but overall just feel bland and not very interesting. I could run whatever trait and it would hardly change how the Vindicator plays as some traits just seem a little useless in comparison to their counterparts in the same tier. There seems to be the adept and grandmaster tiers focusing on the leap mechanic so everything else in the spec gets crushed into the minor tier which I think contributes to the class hardly playing any differently despite choosing different traits. I’ll mention notes on traits that I had the most concerns with as not every single trait needs work.There might be a lot of proposed changes here as well as quite a lot of differences but I feel the adept and grandmaster tiers should be combined and right now it’s just singular traits pulled apart to fill the gaps. (A side note here, I will say the proposals for traits are somewhat sitting on a higher grade of implementation than previous proposals. Despite them feeling a bit more intense, please understand I am not one of those that are saying “scrap this class, it sucks, go again.” I just think the traits need to reflect more areas of the spec and not just the leap mechanic with everything else being an afterthought). Proposal: This is more of a general proposal for the traits as a collective group. They need to be shifted around. I am going to mention some changes below and suggest where they should move to and what should move into their place instead as some proposals feel a little over the top for minor tier but they could benefit better from being in the grandmaster tier. I will give a full loadout of how the trait line would look under my proposals. Leviathan Strength > just feels like it will have no use outside of niche situations. There isn’t anything in the utilities where I would say I want to cast them back to back to achieve a certain goal. How this trait seems to be worded for me at least is it would let you for example use Scavenger burst, then Alliance tactics to flip Tree Song back into Scavenger burst and it would be off cooldown again. I just don’t see reason to desperately need any utility a second time in a row. Also it needs to be considered that you begin with 50 energy. You will be using weapon skills amongst utilities. If you were to Shackling Wave & Death Strike then Scavenger burst into Alliance tactics into another--oh wait you’ve not got enough energy to do this without going Charged Mists. The trait feels too niche and tailored to a 1 in 20 chance situation that will probably never arise in general gameplay. The 20 second increase in cooldown feels way too overzealous of a trade off of spamming two utilities from the same half effectively. Proposal: Make this trait cause your F2 in core legends to do more. It could do something like what I mentioned above to make the F2 in other legends feel impactful or something else (if the F2 gained some kind of baseline effect outside of Alliance tactics, this trait would add even more to it). I just think the traits need at least a single choice to make the F2 useful outside of Alliance tactics. This could be renamed to something such as ‘Alliance’s intuition/pact/etc.’ to show Achemorus and Saint Viktor are working with other legendary mist figures too. This would move to the grandmaster tier as I think a trait that changes how the f2 works is quite a game changer and deserves a better spot than the minor trait tier. Amnesty of Shing Jea > a nice simple trait that adds some more ebb and flow to the spec and I like that. The only issue I think that needs fixing with it is that the boons get applied almost 2 seconds after using the actual corresponding skill. I initially thought this was bugged but later realised it was just because the boons were taking a while to apply. Just make the regen/might apply as soon as you use the corresponding utility and this will be perfectly fine. Redemptor’s Sermon > really feels niche. I get this could work with Saint Viktor’s Urn if the ticking damage happens to work with this trait and obviously it’s just extra healing/utility when you take a big hit but it just feels boring. Saint Viktor’s utilities give nice condi cleanse and decent enough healing. When running this trait you’ll probably be playing a full boon support/heal Vindicator so you’ll have plenty of healing from staff and Centaur so this trait won’t really get that much use. Proposal: Scrap the idea of this just giving passive healing that you forget about. It could give extra benefits while inside Saint Viktor’s utilities such as extra outgoing healing on the utilities. Their activations could apply barriers to allies they affect as well. The tl/dr is this trait would make Saint Viktor’s utilities do more so it feels like a strong support choice. To balance this out more so it could also do something to make Archemorus’ utilities weaker. Reaver’s curse > feels again like it is linked to this design decision of “hit more to make it fully useful”. I realise that this synergizes well with Saint of zu Helzter but it still means you’ve got to be hitting multiple targets to get full effect with this. When you compare this to its counterparts, they outshine it too much. Proposal: Combine this trait with Forerunner of Death as it feels this has just been picked out of that grandmaster trait to fill slots. I can ignore the “hit more targets to make this more useful” side of this as well with my proposal for Forerunner of Death. Angsiyan’s Trust > is a nice way to gain back the energy in a proactive method as you will be using Alliance tactics a lot and constantly legend swapping for fast paced gameplay but the issue with this is I don’t see it performing better than Song of Arboreum. When I tried both I had pretty much identical numbers of leaps to execute and SoA also provides vigor to allies so it just feels like the better choice. Proposal: Combine this trait with Vassals of the Empire. I feel it is just a case of preference right now on which one you want to go with, this or SoA so linking it to VotE bakes it into your way to augment your leap mechanic, freeing up a trait slot. Song of Arboreum > is my favourite out of the three. This plus Spirit boon in Invocation and 50% boon duration lets you keep up perma vigor in most scenarios and it also lets you provide another boon to your sub-group which is great! It easily feels like the supportive choice of the three but I would still take this even when I’m not playing support on a Vindicator which does raise a few questions. Proposal: As you probably guessed, combine this trait with Saint of zu Helzter. This might seem a little overloaded in the current version of SozH but I have a few recommendations for that as well to simplify it and keep it effective. Forerunner of Death > is surely interesting to say the least. Keeping up that buff that it provides is nice to practice and it surely is the best choice for pure DPS on Vindicator. I think it could have a few more components and the vulnerability from Vassals of the Empire make more sense on this trait as then this would be the choice to go when you want to be doing damage. Proposal: Move the 10 vulnerability that Vassals of the Empire stacks to this. Those 10 stacks along with battle scars (which you will run on Power Vindicator) let you get even more damage from using this. With this being a smaller radius to hit enemies in as well and considering the combination of Reaver’s curse, this could pull up to 5 targets within its radius to the middle so they can’t just run out of it if say for example a mob has some kind of leap back or dash and they use it when you’re just about to land. It also would give some CC options outside of Archemorus (if you consider my previous proposals) Vassals of the Empire > is a nice option, especially for solo play. I was using it a lot to generate 25 might easily for myself and the protection is nice but I did ponder the question of what does this provide outside of that? DPS will go Forerunner of Death and pure boon support/healers should go with Saint of zu Helzter. I get the concept of wanting to make Vindicator players choose if they want healing or boons but in a realistic situation, a Druid gives 25 might to 10 people. Protection can just be provided by an alacrigade so all you get from this augment is a bit of chill and vulnerability (which would work better on the aforementioned Forerunner of Death) Proposal: Make this more of a personal utility augment. By doing this you would remove the might/protection it grants to allies and maybe alter the chill to do something more useful. It would do something such as reducing your Alliance tactics cooldown depending on how many targets it hits or reducing the remaining cooldown of your current utility skills. It would open some interesting play to use one half of the utilities, leap and then get the utility you want in the other half up sooner. As I mentioned with the utilities, they are cheap and quick so this would let you rapidly fire them off for really fast paced and dynamic gameplay. These reduction timers would be something like 1/1.5s with maybe diminishing returns beyond the first target (first gives 1.5s while following targets give 0.5s for example). In contrast, this could instead let you restore energy depending on how many targets you hit. It’s great to have the utilities up faster but having no energy to make use of them isn’t the best. Saint of zu Helzter > is a great support option. I didn’t make use of it when solo for obvious reasons as Vassals of the Empire gave me boons when solo as well as extra healing through battle scars. A rapid fire leap feels fun, especially with sigil of energy and lining up your Alliance tactics correctly. But my issue with this is it just feels like a case of “it’s there, okay?” I think it could work better in other iterations. The barrier feels random in the current state of this ability. The outgoing healing effectiveness is nice but you will be running this leap while playing a healing Vindicator and you get 50% outgoing healing effectiveness from standard healing traits in Salvation so that extra 20% just feels like a massive overkill on outgoing healing effectiveness stacking. Proposal: Add the might/protection granted that has been removed from VotE to this augment instead. Remove the 20% outgoing healing effectiveness you get as it feels wasted/overkill in this case. Remove the healing or barrier off it to balance it out. Out of the two I would say removing the healing would be the most plausible. This would allow for you to trait into this and my proposed Redemptor’s Sermon to support your sub-group in a way that is quite unseen on revenant through barriers. Now this does leave three empty slots in the traits overall which I intended as I have a few trait ideas to tie into other elements of Vindicator so there aren't just 6 traits to do with one part of the spec whilst every other element is left out to dry. To begin with we will go over the two gaps on the minor tier. Unified Steel (minor) > this would be a trait focused around the greatsword. It could have generic enhancements; more damage on the greatsword as well as reduced cooldowns on skills. I also thought of the possibility of it making the final strike of the auto attack chain reduce the Alliance tactic’s cooldown by 0.5 seconds. This again would really allow for fast paced swapping between tactics alongside my proposed changes for Vassals of the Empire. Balanced Dualism (minor) > this trait would create further synergy between the two halves of the utilities. Essentially how it would work is when you use a utility, you gain a new buff on your hotbar. You’d have 3 seconds or so to use the alternate utility that matches the first one. If you do, it flips back to the original again on a reduced recharge (1/1.5/2s maybe?). If you were to not make use of Balanced Dualism within the time frame, the buff would simply expire and if you were to use the corresponding utility it would flip and go on a 10 second cooldown the same as normal instead of a 5 second cooldown Example:Scavenger burst > (you gain Balanced Dualism) > use Tree song within three seconds > flips back to Scavenger burst but on a 9/8.5/ 8 second cooldown instead of 10 seconds. It would again allow for fast paced flipping and also add some more decision making on your utility usage as I did find myself sometimes just smashing every utility. This would let you decide on what you want to focus on. Warfiend’s Rage (grandmaster) > This is pretty much the counterpart to Redemptor’s Sermon. This would focus on empowering your Archemorus utilities over the Saint Viktor ones. It could cause every utility to expel a blast of malicious energy around the Vindicator to give each utility an extra burst of damage. This could do strike damage and a little bit of condition damage if it felt appropriate. It could also make them do a flat damage increase. Just something to make them all have even more offensive capabilities. Similarly to the proposed Redemptor’s Sermon changes, this would make your Saint Viktor utilities weaker to balance this out. (An example of how the traits would look with my proposed changes). Unified Steel Forerunner of Death Warfiend’s Rage Balanced Dualism Vassals of the Empire Alliance’s intuition Amnesty of Shing Jea Saint of zu Helzter Redemptor’s Sermon Greatsword --------------------------------------------------------------- Overall, with the greatsword as a weapon, I am very happy! As I mentioned in my beginning statement, I had been anticipating this weapon for Revenant pretty much since the beginning of EoD’s teaser. It feels fluid, has a nice array of damage as well as utility such as the dash and the block. The block could have some secondary feature that could aid in the lack of CC of this spec overall. Eternity’s Requiem feels a little odd in a way? It does it’s damage like it should but it stating 24 impacts and only visually creating about 7 or 8 feels a little off. I do sadly have to agree with people saying the Vindicator greatsword is the love child of reaper and ranger. I really love the kit and I don’t think the kit should be changed, but it needs slight adjustments. Proposal: Change the animation for Eternity’s Requiem. Something such as you stab the greatsword into the ground a bit like Fiery Greatsword’s Fissure would be really nice in my opinion. That way you are stabbing your greatsword’s mist energy into the ground and it’s erupting from the earth in all the mini blasts you get on this skill. Do something with the visuals of the hits as well; I don’t mind if the tooltip gets reworded to 8 hits and you see 8 hits and the damage get’s balanced out among these hits but with it saying it hits 24 times and you don’t see that many it just doesn’t seem right. Also, to aid in the lack of CC, True Strike could have a small stun/daze on it as you are unleashing all the blocked hits back to your target. If this was to gain some CC then I would say the proposed CC I made for Archemorus’ utilities would have reduced durations as you would have a few accessible ways of CCing now between Vindicator and greatsword. Solo/open world --------------------------------------------------------------- Soloing on this felt so nice, and I mean that, really nice! Using all the utilities in certain situations such as needing an evade or a break stun or condition cleanse really added more depth to the gameplay for me. The boon coverage on the Vindicator was really good too. 25 might, permanent protection, regen and vigor/fury if I traited into invocation. That many boons while solo has got to be commended in all honesty. There was a strong ebb and flow in the class that felt refreshing. As I mentioned on a few occasions before now, the constant quick costing, fast firing utilities just felt amazing for me as it engaged me in the fight more so. Running Vassals of the Empire feels necessary when solo due to the boons it gives and then the vulnerability provided on it makes it work with Dance of Death amazingly. The only downside I faced when testing Vindicator was its lack of CC; as stated before now, Vindicator without core spec intervention has zero CC which made CCing harder hero point mobs a problem. You either have to use Jade winds in shiro (goodbye energy), swap to Jalis for Forced Engagement (goodbye damage), use Call to anguish (goodbye energy again) or go with a staff which feels really deflating when you want to use the class weapon plus another set for your damage type as mace/axe is mandatory for condition and sword/sword is too good to pass up on power. I won’t repeat my proposals here as this has already all been covered before now. Overall though, soloing on Vindicator felt smooth, fun and efficient. In a comparison, it felt a lot better than when I tried my solo testing on Catalyst. Vindicator felt like it had its own identity too when I was soloing. It didn’t feel like I was just playing core Revenant with just an extra button or so which was great! Support gameplay --------------------------------------------------------------- I didn’t mention this in my previous feedback for Catalyst as sadly I didn’t really see Catalyst (in its current state keep in mind!) being able to be a support at all. I did try heal Vindicator with a friend, and quickly in Cold War with some guildies along with testing if it can sustain with the ‘moderately threatening’ toggle in the Special Forces Area. I realise this isn’t the epitome of testing a class's healing capabilities but it is what I had to work with as I didn’t really want to start running into raids with this. Centaur stance alone has enough healing to carry Revenant playing a healing role and the extra healing from Saint Viktor utilities felt really good honestly. I did try to make use of the Urn but it did feel a little clunky as I couldn’t really get to below 25% hp for the extra healing as its energy drain is humongous. The healing skill felt potent though and the other utilities were nice for some smaller might generation. Being able to provide regeneration also made the situation easier! Overall it can provide: 25 might | permanent protection | permanent regeneration | permanent vigor (if traited into Spirit boon and Song of Arboreum) It feels strong in an off-heal position. It does mean you need two quickness DPS but honestly that doesn’t phase me at all. I was running Vassals of the Empire though as my leap augment for the boon generation. I’ve mentioned it with trait proposals but Saint of zu Helzter isn’t the best choice, despite it being the healing choice. Healers are in a position in the game design where unless you provide an array of boons along with healing, you won’t be considered for content. Yeah, Vindicator can provide permanent regeneration, vigor and a bit of might without VotE but that for me doesn’t feel like a very strong healer and that is again relying on Druid. Who knows, these three final elites might make room for new comps/metas so you can’t use Druid’s 10-man might as a crutch. Conclusion --------------------------------------------------------------- To close my analysis, I’d like to say well done Arenanet with this one! Despite me giving such extensive proposals, I did really enjoy this spec when I tested it and getting to grips with the traits/alliance tactics and timing my leaps felt fun! There is probably personal bias somewhere among that but it was mostly down to Vindicator’s concept. However I think the class is lacking a few things here and there; some more interesting styles of playing where your traits really impact how you play. Some of the current traits are underwhelming, lacklustre or hardly impact your gameplay, aside from the current grandmaster tier. I am by no means saying Vindicator should be scrapped and built again; when writing this I did get really anxious that I was proposing too much and being too hostile/critical but I just have such a strong place in my heart for Revenant and I would love to see some different styles of play (that feel impactful) be introduced with Vindicator. Thank you for reading! 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katary.7096 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 My observations are all based on PvE. Greatsword Skill #1: Pretty much the standard for greatsword autos. Perhaps add vulnerability to chain skill #1. Skill #2: The animation of the swing is identical to a part of the skill #1 chain, which looks weird. Please consider changing it to something otherwise not seen in the Vindicator's kit. Skill #3: Sometimes it does not travel 900 range, I am suspecting it occurs due to differences in elevation. Overall the ability that is the most fun to use on Vindicator. Skill #4: Cast time of the counterattack could be slightly faster. Skill #5: The effect clearly does not last for 9 seconds. No hard CC option on the weapon is a bold choice. Legendary Alliance Stance Overall the legend skills are relatively low powerlevel: Damage values, boonstacks & duration and healing compare poorly to the skills of other legends. I have had better results with Vindicator builds using only core legends. (And even more success with Herald and Renegade builds.) The flip-over effect would greatly benefit from the legendary stance skills being more generally useful. Casting a skill which then turns into an ability that isn't actually helpful in the situation is a problem. Alternatively more control over the legend skills could be useful, for example if an F3 ability would flip all skills to version A and an F4 ability could flip all skills to version B. The legend skills have no hard CC abilities. Traits Leviathan Strength is useless in builds without the Legendary Alliance Stance. Amnesty of Shing Jea is almost useless in builds without the Legendary Alliance Stance. (1 Stack of Might & Regeneration every F2 activation.) Redemptor's Sermon is a passive trigger that casts an ability for you when struck, I thought those kinds of traits shouldn't be in the game anymore? The grandmasters: The bottom option is so cleary the most powerful it is not even funny. Which is mostly due to the fact that it makes the dodge skill cost 50 endurance. (Although the healing and barrier are nothing to scoff at.) The contrast with the top slot is stark, with an activation cost of 150 endurance the damage output of Death Drop would need to be multiple times the current value based on the its lengthy cast time alone. And realistically you are playing a build with no dodge at that time. Please normalize duration and endurance cost of all 3 dodge options. The activation of the skills tied to dodging (Saint's Shield, Imperial Impact, Death Drop) should be covered by the evade frames of the dodge, meaning the Vindicator should stop evading the moment the skill has finished casting. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowghost.6025 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 Vindicator The vindicator is another really cool concept, however, there are some issue with the current build. The stability skill on the new legends need to give more or last longer 1 stack is not enough, especially with the new dodge mechanic taken up so much energy. Once you burn this with out stab you will get lock down and kill instantly in zerg fights. They also need a least 1 more stun break. Having a weak stability skill and that is also your only stun break is just setting the class up for failure. Another thing is this class seem to lake blast finisher, I feel like the dodge should be a blast finisher because of the impact. This would really synergy well with field combos. finally the 5th skill on the GS why do the animation look exactly like the reaper's this will cause confusing to player who turn off player model because you wont be able to tell if it the necro that using their skill or Vindicator that's using theirs. Using the same animation will cause confusing and really lazy animation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angesombre.4630 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) At first, before I saw the special, I was afraid that you could only play with the legendary alliance. In the end there is the skill reversal which has a CD on the skills. I think that if they want to keep the current system except for some changes the CD should be on the skill used and not on the next one to make the class more dynamic. For the red elite we should either assign a permanent offensive buff that follows the player with energy consumption, or place an attack zone to hit multiple targets. I won't talk about the rest knowing that it has already been mentioned several times. Edited September 25, 2021 by Angesombre.4630 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chichimec.9364 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) Meh. The balancing act involved in trying to make the Legendary Alliance work effectively did not interest me at all. Instead, I tried a suggestion someone made in another thread. That was to use the greatsword with Shiro's Impossible Odds to rack up the Battle Scars, enhancing one's durability. The result was okay but nothing to get excited about. I simply didn't see any compelling reason to play this spec and I've been running a Rev main for years. A dps Herald and a condi Renegade do me just fine and this spec doesn't look like it will change that. So far, the only new specs that have caught my interest are the mesmer's and the guardian's. The mesmer's effects just looked so cool, that I want to try it. As for the guardian, I can't wait to try it's new spec in WvW. It looked like it could be awesome there. Haven't tried the warrior yet but I will later today. That one also looked like it might have some real possibilities. Oh, and I realize that my feedback is nothing at all like that of the folks who dive deep into the theory crafting. My reactions are those of a much more casual player but I figure you need to hear from folks like that too, so I am posting this. 🙂 Edited September 25, 2021 by Chichimec.9364 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwalt one.4895 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) I don't have much to add on top of everyone else's points but just wanted to share some thoughts on giving us more control of our builds and profession. Flip mechanic - Get rid of the automatic skill flip and instead allow us to slot either red or blue abilities(something we don't have) and then F2 can keep the skill flip. I'm not a fan of adding an F3 or F4 because then it just feels like we're getting F1x2, in which case they might as well have just given us 2 separate new legends to use Dodge jump - I like the idea of the mechanic but I feel like I'm being punished for using it, there's a few ways I think this can be tweaked. First would be to behave similar to raptor/skimmer in that the longer you press the dodge key the longer it takes to complete, this would give us a degree of control over our dodge instead of locking us in timeout(where I've been cc'd and damaged even though it's a "dodge"), can be tweaked to either fully consume endurance on landing or not, requires a minimum amount of time/endurance in order to land, etc. Another option would be to allows us to activate the dodge key a second time to land. If there's a concern for pvp/wvw and seeing the landing marker then again you can make it a minimum amount of time required before the jump can be ended. I just don't like the feeling of the dps jump taking me out of a fight for so long, seems counterintuitive. Edited September 25, 2021 by gwalt one.4895 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martzi.7341 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 The Spec feel agile, the greatsword skills are good in their class, the alliace legend feels a bit underwhelming/complicated to use and doesn't have many viability in PvE game modes, the F2 skill is to demanding to use (high energy cost). Overall the spec is versatile, allowes damage and support (or even hybrid) playstyle (mostly with older legends). 1 tiny trifle: the new dodge animation has 2 parts: standing up from the strike and pulling out the sword fron the ground, then swirling with the main hand weapon weapon. While the the first part understandable would seem weird during movement, the hand movement would not, so that part of the animation could (or rather shoul) be added to the skill during non-static dodge too (hella great animation). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inokumasan.5196 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) The dodge mechanic is cool but it feels too slow/clunky for dps focused builds. 1. Forerunner of Death—Make the dodge animation faster or increase damage to accommodate the dps loss in pve. (Duration could stay the same and damage can be scaled down for pvp/wvw.) Daredevils and Mirages don’t suffer from their dodge mechanics. Vindicators shouldn’t either. 2. Major Master traits should restore flat 50 endurance on successful hit/heal/legend swap (25 in pvp/wvw). 3. Keep endurance set at 100. (Additional edits) 4. Alliance Tactics/Energy Meld—Change F2 and add an F3 skill. (Selfish Tactics, Selfless Tactics) F2 focuses on self while F3 focuses on allies. Both skills go on cooldown when one is activated. Alliance—F2 resets skills to Arch and apply might and fury to self. F3 resets skills to Vik and converts conditions to boons for allies. Assassin—F2 applies 5 stacks of might to self. F3 applies quickness to allies Demon—F2 consumes conditions on self. F3 applies resistance to allies Dwarf—F2 applies stability to self. F3 applies aegis to allies. Centaur—F2 applies resolution to self. F3 applies protection to allies. 5. Spear of Archemorus—The skill should stun instead of applying torment. Maybe change it to an upkeep skill that tiers up in potency the longer it’s activated. Spear is thrown upon deactivating upkeep (Throw Spear of Archemorus). 6. Leviathan Strength—Increased boon duration/conditions converted . Increased cooldown. Edited September 27, 2021 by Inokumasan.5196 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zikory.6871 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 A lot of pages to read. Has swapping the endurance requirement and the self buff time for Forerunner of Death and Saint of zu Heltzer (dodge traits) been suggested? 50 endurance fast pace dodge combat seems to be more in line with damage. The hangtime from 150 endurance is just dead time. For support, reworking it a bit so it gives barrier while you are dodging and lands with a heal and gives the healing buff seems like it would allow more use of the other skills instead of dodging every 6s. (I didn't test in PvE so maybe bad idea, i dno) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 Ok, after creating and playing a bit the new specs in the beta last Tuesday I was busy getting the WvW diamond chest with my regular Revs until Friday, so yesterady and today had more time to test the Vindicator (this time mostly in PvE). So let me re-adjust my impressions about the spec: I think that most of us agree that the main hole to fill in current Revenant builds ia a pure power (strike) dps role for PvE. Is not like power Rev can't do both Open World and instanced PvE well, but in terms of damage output (comparatively low) and keystrokes per minute (comparatively high) it requires much more effort than condi Herald or condi Renegade, specially against multiple foes. It can be said also that this is relatively common amongst other classes: at PvE condi builds have been outclasing their power varaints for quite a while, usually having better sustained damage, better AoE and better sustain due condi is less stat intensive to maximize damage. The surprise with the Vindicator is that although power oriented (the output damage for conditions is minimal and oriented to soft cc) the numbers still aren't here. What we have instead is a quite strong bruiser with promising off heal capabilities). But as was said, numbers can be changed easily, so let's take a look over the gameplay and features, instead: 1) THE ALLIANCE. The new legend is dual and has two sets of skills: the Luxon guy is more oriented towards attacking and the skills are okish, I guess (but not better than anything we current have). The Kurzik guy is oriented towards defense and support so it could have powtential paired with Ventari for pure support builds. The problem is that instead of having 3 legends we have two slots with the Alliance working in a tandem with flipping over skills. I think that the flip mechanic is trash and ruins the performance of both legends, and they should work separately asigning each one to F1 and F2 respectively. BEING SAID THAT: I'll never use The Alliance, the same as I never use Kalla. I find that Jalis, Shiro and Mallyx are stronger for both PvP/WvW and PvE than The Alliance so I would never bother equiping Abott & Costelo, specially under their current swap mechanics. They would have to buff the numbers to INSANE levels to make me chose them instead of Jalis, Shiro or even Mallyx. So I can't comment much about what to improve in them. Albeit one thing is for sure: the developer which designed the elite doesn't deserve his position. 2) THE F2. The F2 function is bland with The Alliance legend and really mediocre with other legends; most of the time I don't use it but I would lie if I say that bothers me. Core, Herald and Renegade Revs have stronger F skill functions. As I said, I would reserve F1 & F2 for Abott & Costelo and put something else in F3. 3) THE TRAITLINE. The Vindicator spents too much traits improving the self-inflicted handicaps of the Alliance, leaving only 4 traits usable for other legends and 0 traits devoted to the new weapon, the greatsword. Honestly, playing without The Alliance (which you should) you should run 3,3,3 or 3,3,2. Those are fine for PvP/WvW and PvE respectively. The traitline is decent, but has almost no synergies with other traitlines, legends or weapons. Is a super self-contained thing which puts most of the interaction in a legend that will have no use, so feels like hast a ton of wasted space. 4) THEDODGE MECHANIC. Ok, I was wrong with this one: feels good to use (despite is bugged, too long lasting and with long recoveries which hurts the usability) and has tons of potential to be incredible broken. On one hand, the damage output with the first trait is so low and the endurance cost so high that no one would use it (would have to deal 120k+ damage in PvE to even consider it), because is a net loss in dps and a huge oportunity cost to perform more active things instead. Why would I want to retire my character from the game for 3 seconds + recovery in normal gameplay? Maybe evadin a Brsitelback channel? But no because is better just to cc them and kick their backs... On the other hand the 2nd and 3rd traits are REALLY strong: in PvE you can easily recover the endurance so your evading time will equal or surpass regular dodging, and the freeze, damage, protection, barriers and heals (some of them shared) over a large radious will benefit both solo and team play. ANet has also a problem here due the shorter the evade is, the stronger the build is at PvP and WvW. So far for roaming and small skirmishes the third trait makes the Vindicator a extremely strong bruiser in competitive game modes, and the second trait is great for PvE. 5) THE GREATSWORD. As happens with the Renegade, the best part of the Vindicator is the new weapon. The sound design is stellar, the best part of the package; on the other hand the animations are outsourced from attacks from Ranger, Warrior and Reaper, and those would be replaced with ones with more personality. I still think that this was a waste of potential of having a telekinetic wielding greatsword with Bathazar legend (specially seeing what legend we have instead), but the overall functionality at least is good. Let's take a look: the #1 autoatacks are boring, nothing special, but the freezing at the third hit is good and the 5 foe cleave is nice and wellcomed. The #2 has the meat of the damage (not enough) but is spammable and even with current numbers can work (see later). #3 is a good movement skill which was much needed lately (neither shield, trident or short bow have any). It has to work consistenly as in other greatswords but once fixed will be great. #4 has lovely sound design and works well but the counter attack is buggy as hell (needs better target track to get consistency). #5 this is the one I would replace for cc, oriented towards PvP; at the moment is bugged and too random even in PvE, but when fixed the numbers could be massive for OW PvE. At competitive game modes can work for cleaving cced or downed foes, but #2 is just better and more consistent. Overall the greatsword is a good tool and along the new evade and a few traits it can be combined with core Revenant to generate some builds with good potential at PvE and PvP/WvW without being annoying to play or too v¡convoluted. Builds: I've using three combos of weapons for an offensive PvE/PvP/Roaming spec; support builds with Ventari and other configurations have potential but I'm less interested in those, wo I would talk obout what I did use: Legends: Jalis + Shiro (already saw a Jalis + Mallyx performing very well in PvP with mace + axe, but if I wanted to run a condi Rev I think that both Renegade and Herald would be stronger). Greatsword + swords, greatsword + staff and greatsword + hammer: double swords is more aggressive and maybe optimar for duels, but then your cc will rely almost entirely in the legends. I think that greatsword with staff (PvE and PvP/WvW) or greatsword + hammer will be better for PvE and teamfights. Satts: full diviner armor with full berzerker at everything else; vision and celerity (or force) sigins in greatsword and energy and cleansing in staff. Leadership runes. Traits: (PvE): Devastation 331, Retribution 133 Vindicator 332. WvW/PvP: Invocation 121, Retribution 133, Vindicator 233. I did test gs + staff with this build mostly in Drizzlewood, soloing hordes of enemies and some champions; the stats, sigils and traits are based on the core Rev build I'm currenly running in WvW roaming and uses tha same principles replacing Invocation with Vindicator traitline. The goal is to overcome the low damage numbers of the greatsword running a very bursty (stat wise) build with over 50% boon duration to get full advantage of brutality and sigil of celerity. The elevated quicknes uptime benefits the autoattacks but also the cast times of the other skills in the weapons, making it harder to interrupt/evade them (against human foes). I found that Shiro, while bursty, lacked stability/damage mitigation in an anrea so filled with AoE damage & cc, blinds and enemies, so most I spent 2/3 of the time in Jalis. The build performed very well against both bosses and hordes and torned apart silver veterans and their footman at way faster pace than power Herald while retaining high sustain. Most of the time evades weren't required as part of the damage rotation and I used them mosttly for damage and cc avoidance. Veredict: despite the narrow time I spent with the Vindicator and the overall lame numbers in dps and bugs that currentl has, I can see how this spec has potential to surpass other Rev specs with power damage for OW and even instanced content, but some buffs and bug fixing needs to be done. For competitive gameplay could end being a resourceful bruiser which maibe couldn't outpace power Herald as a dueler but can have pressence in teamfights due the AoE damage and great shared sustain. I would rate the Vindicator at his current state as the first or second best new spec of the 6 revelaed; is not quite as good as pure power dps role as we expected but the jump evade mechanics isn't as debilitating as I though at the beginning. I still think that the Alliance legend is mostly useless along most of the traits, but the greatsword is quite good and mix well with the core tools available. They should fix bugs, replace animations and fine tunning some mechanics, tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artorias.8271 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 As a pvp player (over 2k games played as rev) and pve casual. I really like this spec concept. But the implementetion seams not very well-conceived. From what I understand these specs brings a whole new perspective over endurence as a second source of skill fuel. That is the first weakness, F2 looks cleary as a way to transition between energy and endurence which is so cool! but... why it is not fluent with a mechanics that Rev already have at its disposal, upkeep skills! From what I see this legend doesnt have a proper upkeep skill -> Urn of Viktor, nah you wont gonna make it : D I have constantly struggled with having too much energy and no endurence or vice versa. With upkeep skill you drain more energy in reward for endurance. You need quicly 20% endurance and got 70 energy left, activate an upkeep and no problem : ) I see this solution very dynamic and engading. My suggetion of F2 rework (numbers are theoretical) : - Energy Meld ( 5 energy cost, 8e/s upkeep): Gain 8 endurance each second. That instantly brings me an idea off one trait that enhance this effect : D Tier 2 Major trait: - Forceful Training: Energy Meld now gives more endurence at higher energy cost (10e/s - 10 endurence) Second part, I don't like the way that evade skill is now a fixed one master trait option, and moreover duration of it is long and fixed as well. IMO I would consider making it like adding 3 new "F" skills that which represents the master tier effects, dont force us to choose only one! Even I dont like Renegade image when master tiers instead of enhancing particular "F" ability, make only one avaible, disabling the rest! Here my idea how I would like to see it ; ) Tenacious Ruin gets replaced with - Echoing Banishment: instead of dodging you step into the mist eveding all attacks for 2 second. During the time you get access to 3 finishers, before the time expires. If no skills were triggered you land with no effect (cool if you just want to evade, and escape) 3 new skills of choice (can only be triggered during Echoing Banishment (Tenacious Ruin) evade frame): - Death Drop (...) - Imperial Impact (...) - Saint's Shield (...) What it comes to master tier they can do the same what Renegade does IMO very well. Enhance an abillity plus a buff. Moreover, because all three skills share same endurance pool if devs sees Death Drop more costly, you can add exhoustion debuff the same as Daredevil has, problem solved ; ) As I said at the beginning I see this spec has the best potential of all 3, it only needs some more development : ) I wish you the best and hope you liked my simple ideas ❤️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXXL.8047 Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 I like this elite spec and it's concept. For me it's kinda hard to master so far and I still struggle a lot with the dualty, but I'm getting better day after day and this very dualty makes this spec so special and cool. At the beginning I had a lot trouble with the new dodge and never could dodge when I needed to, but as soon as I got to knew the skills and traits and how to gain endurance faster even this got much better. The only thing I think is a bit too weak is the GS skill 4. Yes, the concept is to block attacks with it and then making more damage, but even if I blocked - let's say five attacks at once it felt like doing almost no damage at all. Even the auto attack was still stronger then... That's the only real criticism I have about this spec, but everything else seems to be something you can master and utilize in many ways - probably takes longer than with other specs, but why don't do something more challenging, too. Like this one, great compliment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrNoooooo.8430 Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 Don't have as much to add about this spec as others have already done (Tho I don't really post too much as one can tell). I would make the following suggestions tho: All the dodge leaps should be blast finishers, after all you hit the ground with a fair amount of force, no reason for it not to be able to blast a field or two. I think the Luxon elite should give out some CC instead of Torment (Especially considering none of the other Luxon skills outside of Scavenger Burst do any form of condition damage) or something in the Alliance stance should dish out some form of CC. The Kurzick skill Awakening should also give out AoE stability to players too, there needs to be more sources of AoE stab in WvW. Conversely I would extend the range of Selfless Spirit to 360 range so that it can have a better range of affecting players. I kind of think this spec is okayish, but I think there needs to be more in regards to CCs, and supporting other players better. I would definitely make the Kurzick elite heal better or at least pulse out some important boons like quickness or alacrity to make up for the fact you're draining your life to give it to everyone else. I also think the dodge leaps should do a little something before you land, like with Vassals of the Empire or Death Drop/Forerunner of Death there could be a little bit of pulsing damage that's done to enemies inside the landing area before you hit with the big damage from landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Mirage.8174 Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 Hello! I will be giving my thoughts as a casual player who enjoys open world content. I tested the Vindicator in the Drizzlewood Coast meta events for its offensive and supportive capabilities. Overall: I enjoyed it! The skill flipping between Archamoris and Viktor provided a cool balance between offense and support. I appreciate the callbacks to GW1, such as summoning and holding Saint Viktor's Urn and then dropping it for a second effect. I also found the Vin to be easy to pick up, since the utility skills are simply opposites of one another. Since I was testing the class in a large meta event, it's difficult for me to gauge how effective my damage and healing was. Greatsword: I thought it was fun to play! Skill 5 felt satisfying to use and the blocks were pretty handy. Improvements: When things got tight, I was very reluctant to use the Urn of Saint Viktor to heal my allies because my health was also quite low. I know I could easily activate the Urn and drop it for a quick burst, but I personally think it would be nice to keep that skill pulsing even in clutch moments. Perhaps instead of sapping health, it reduced the Rev's moment speed? Or, you could draw more inspiration from the GW1 ritualist in that while holding the Urn, you cannot use your weapon skills. Since in GW1, while you are holding a bundle you cannot use martial weapon skills like swords, bows, etc. I realize this wasn't the most detailed feedback, but I hope it helps! Thank you for the beta and I can't wait for this spec to go live. ^_^ 1 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruakumfd.4817 Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 I wasn’t too worried about the greatsword moves, even though I really only like the ones for the Rangers. So, I’m glad that was the case because they were so fun to use! Also, I guess it’s cool there are two ways to switch moves. One last thing: I'm going to have to get used to that drop. I don't mind it because I'll take that over a second of invulnerability as I stay in place. (If this was more of a number cruncher, it wouldn't be so bad.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thon.3780 Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 Testing day3 part1 Comment and suggestions Weapon skill GW skill 1. Is ok . However it would be better if vulnerability will be add to make synergy and player can vary the build between legend trait. Skill2. Animation is ok but the damage range is to short compare to ground animation. This will make player suffer from expectations. It will be good if range will increase from 240 to 360 - 450 same as shackling wave skill 3 rev jump . If possible , make it leap between lift . It will look nice. and add Evade 1 1/2 sec. why? It is easy to interrupt. And please make Aggressive Agility effect to this skill due to dodge mechanic is change so the Elite can’t avoid damage. skill 4 True Strike should not have action time same as warriors or if is has the time should be 1/4 sec or 1/2 at worst skill 5 player can’t see area effect , so it is difficult to use . In opposite way. Enemy can see? So I mostly work for Open wold. I feel Vindicated is design for focusing damage dealer with no CC , let say destroyer with regen healing on center of battlefield. But it look like fight and die . No need to retreat. Just die and respawn. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yohoia.1850 Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 On 9/22/2021 at 12:20 AM, Kidel.2057 said: 1. change F2 to be only Energy Meld (even on Legendary Alliance). 2. make a new Alliance Tactics on F3 and change the effect to "disable flipover and keep the current skillbar" 3. remove the cooldowns on Legendary Alliance skills (except the healing, of course) 4. replace Leviathan Strength with a permanent damage modifier (or something like +15% damage with Vigor) 5. obliterate Urn of Saint Viktor from existance. 6. make the dodges FAST. DPS and momento are more important than a longer evade window. All the dodges should be AT LEAST as fast as Saint's Shield. 7. Death Drop basically removes your ability to dodge (can't be used frequently and needs to be used offensively). It needs a BIGGER payoff. At the moment it's not even good for DPS. 8. Slow/Cripple/Chill should not impact dodges. 9. make GS as fast as the other GS core classes. At least. This is an elite spec, come on. 10. add a hard CC to Nomad's Advance or Spear of Archemorus (last but not least) All of this! In particular the F3 to lock and removal of the urn elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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