Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Kidel.2057]

22 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Introduction

I hereby present my feedback on the Vindicator elite spec for the Revenant class. I will divide my feedback into several sections and will try to look at things from mainly a PvE perspective. Vindicator was the spec that hyped me the most out of the three newest beta elite specs. I really loved the idea of getting two legends to toy with, and that dramatic dodge looked awesome! But after playing it for quite a bit (as far one can say this in a Beta event), I am afraid the spec has a lot of issues that completely kill both its DPS and support potential.

The PvE DPS numbers:

Unfortunately the thing is that the Vindicator as a whole is dramatically undertuned for damage. Greatsword is only a part of this issue. Both it and traits need help to get the damage to a good level. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k damage barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers. The fact that the damage on the legend skills (even the spear elite) is quite low doesnt help either.

 

Possible issue with the theme:

None to be honest, none. It feels fitting to get the legends of two of Cantha’s greatest heroes in our new spec, I don’t think there would be a better suited choice for me personally. I know that Archemorus and Saint Victor aren’t everyone’s first choice ( I have seen suggestions for a Naga legend, a Tengu legend, Master Togo, an ancient evil mage legend, Vizu or Nika, even Razah at one point), but at least they are influential figures in Canthan lore.

 

 

Possible issue with the mechanic:

The Flip over nature of the legend skills feel clunky, you don’t have access to what you want when you need it, and the shared cooldowns don’t help either. The current F2 skill could also use some additional/other functionality or a split into different skills. It really hurts that I come to this conclusion, because on paper this flip-over system is a highly creative one that was guaranteed to add a new flavour to the revenant playstyle. But after trying it extensively, the only conclusion I am able to reach is that it is a mechanic that does not work as well as I hoped it would.

 

Some proposals:

1. I am wondering if it wouldn’t be better to just separate the two legends and switch between Archemorus/Victor with F2, while switching to a non legendary-alliance legend with F1. I understand that would hurt the uniqueness, but at least it would work and not frustrate the player.
 
2. In addition the current F2 skill feels harsh when it comes to flipping skills, essentially adding a big energy cost to the first skill you want to use from the other half of your alliance (you are pretty much forced into the trait for this if you want to be able to somewhat reliably access your skills).

 

3. If the suggestion to split the two into seperate legends doesnt work, I feel this F2 needs to be split into an F2 and an F3, with F2 trading energy for endurance, and F3 flipping/resetting the legend skills, with adjusted costs and recharges (meaning you roll the Leviathan Strength trait into an F3 skill). Because currently you will often find yourself stuck with skills from a legend you don’t want, or use something to get to the legend you need only to have the thing you want on cooldown. I appreciate the flavor/idea, but I currently feel it is holding the spec back.

 

4. Another suggestion: Combine the two legends in one skillbar. Make the heal skill Saint Victor, proceed to give Victor and Archemorus 2 Utility skills each on your bar, Move Urn and Spear to F2 and F3 and create a new elite skill that is an attack performed by both legendary heroes together, like how they struck down Shiro together. So your elite truly show their ‘alliance’.

 

5. Or how about this: Make Vindicator the first spec that allows the Revenant to pick its skills for that legend, so you can pick if you want an Archemorus or a Saint Victor skill in a slot.

 

6. Something else: you only get endurance from F2 when used in a non-legendary alliance legend. Is that enough to make it appealing to use outside of Archemorus/Victor? Perhaps it could do something else based on the non legendary-alliance legend that you swap to? Just so you may also be tempted into using the skill when NOT channeling the legendary-alliance stance.

 

Possible issue with the Greatsword skills:

Not much, I feel like the greatsword is solid as an idea. An auto-attack chain that rewards finishing it (because the last hit does more damage if the tooltip is to be believed), two  hard hitting skills in greatsword 2 and 5, a gap closer and snare on 3 ( but I do not believe the tooltip that claims its 900 range, it’s not even half in reality), and a block on 4 with a follow-up/flip-over. So looking at what the skills do, it seems like a well-rounded kit.

Possible issue with the roles this legend may fill in PvE:

 

Role 1: DPS Vindicator:
Vindicator appears to get the option for mainly two roles, being a selfish DPS spec and a healer/supportive spec. With only Forerunner of Death being a 15% damage modifier and the conditional power from Empire Divided, the spec pretty much has to rely on the greatsword (which currently cannot be traited) to do the damage. I feel this is not going to be enough, especially with the damage on the legend skills being abysmal, even on the Archemorus elite. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers.

 

Another problem is the lack of CC the spec comes with for higher end PvE (I will probably mention this multiple times, because it is THAT important imo). The spec has 0 hard CC, 0, ZERO. Now a spec can get away with doing no cc at all if its busted in other aspects, like busted damage or busted utility/support. But if it has no CC but also no damage, it becomes a problem in a DPS position. And staff is not the answer, considering the big DPS loss that staff is, causing your damage to drop even further. 16 new legend skills. Zero with hard CC. Zero.

 

For the goal of DPS Vindicator to be achieved, the DPS numbers will need to find their way upwards through either raw damage on greatsword and Archemorus legend skills, or through trait modifications giving it additional damage modifiers or way to increase damage in other ways, currently this part of the spec is undertuned. And find a way to weave some hard CC into the spec so it does not need to rely on the staff. Staff can work on support renegade and perhaps support Saint Victor Vindicator, where DPS is not the main role or goal, but it will not work on a DPS Archemorus Vindicator. To me this problem is really glaring. I am sure there is a way to incorporate some pulls and/or stuns into the utility skills of these legends.

 

Role 2: Support/Heal Vindicator:
The heal/support part is in a better state numberswise, but has a major oversight: a healing spec in PvE does not merely get chosen for their raw healing power, but for the offensive buffs they can bring in either quickness+boons (FB), alacrity+boons+some heals(Renegade), quickness+heals (Scrapper, and this is fringe already), or heals+fury+massive might(druid). Rarely if ever is a healing spec brought for raw healing, even heal scourge offers some additional utility in for example teleport resurrection, another epidemic and some might. Vindicator right now pretty much only brings a bit of healing, some barrier and a bit of regeneration. This is not enough to compete where it matters, those places will still bring Firebrands/Renegades/Druids.

 

Vindicator needs its own healer niche, which means it either needs to bring some more offensive boons (something extremely good or it will never compete with alacrity renegades or quickness+boonspamming firebrands, hell it loses out to boonsupport Herald as it currently is), or it needs to go down the healscourge path and become a very powerful carry spec through heals, blocks, ressing and omega-barriers. Without massive buffs, this playstyle might be dead on arrival in PvE, and personally I do not want that to happen!

Possible issue with the artwork of skills and traits:  

Like most of the EoD icons so far, I feel they are missing details and polish. There is a very clear difference between EoD skill/trait icons, and the basegame/HoT/PoF ones.

 

Proposal:
Do another pass over the icons so they won’t look as out of place as they currently do when compared to their basegame/HoT/PoF counterparts.

Possible issues with Utility skills:

Archemorus:
Most of Archemorus his skills are supposed to feel aggressive, but in reality aren't very damaging and very situational. It’s obvious they felt a bit afraid to make the abilities OP because you get 2 new legends instead of 1.

Example: Spear of Archemorus is a 2000 range intercontinental ballistic missile...that hits like a wet noodle. For something that looks so amazing, the damage is pitiful. Please up the damage on it, by a lot.

 I feel like this half of the legend could also use some harder crowd control options, right now Vindicator lacks that a lot. Archemorus was a Luxon, and a big part of Luxon Culture was the Convocation and the hunt on Zhu Hanaku the Kraken. Perhaps we could see some of this Kraken power in this legend, perhaps a tendril pull or other type of CC ( icing on the cake would be if it has better or different effects/buffs based on certain conditions)?

 

Overall this stance could use some more unique stuff, some things feel like it’s copy-pasted from the Shiro legend with minimal changes. As it stands, there is very little reason to use the skills this legend comes with. Even worse, the best damage right now seems to come from ignoring this legend entirely and just play with Jalis and Shiro. Please, make me want to use the legend skills! Make them menacing, make them cool, make them do cool things!

Saint Victor:
Healing feels like stepping hard on the toes of both Renegade and Ventari. Either it can do better heals than Renegade/Ventari, only to still get sidelined because you bring no alacrity to the group, or it cannot do better heals and will never be seriously played because Ren/Ventari does it better. I Feel Saint Victor should get a niche of its own (preferably in a way so that it is not hard-chained to Ventari), perhaps with less emphasis on raw heals, and some more on short duration aegis and notably barrier applications, with how Shield of Saint Victor in GW1 was basically a massive barrier drop. The grandmaster giving heals+barrier on dodge already toys with this idea (and I think that is a great trait), I feel the entire Victor line could make use of that philosophy. You could then maybe make it give some of the buffs/boons high end PvE likes so much through traits enhancing barrier or aegis application.

 

I honestly have trouble wrapping my head around the complete lack of aegis here.
The entire Saint Victor line is lacking any form of the boon, and that for a guy who was pretty much the Canthan version of the Shield Hero. This legend could really use it. Tree song is mostly fine, but won’t do much unless you party drowns in conditions (but I suppose the evade on it is nice). Perhaps it could actually spawn a tree that for a period of time gives out some boons on an interval? Or some barrier build-up? Or perhaps this could could spawn a shielding Juggernaut/image of the Zu Heltzer Cathedral with relevant buffing?  Awakening would be nice if it shared some stability with allies as well I think.

Urn of Saint Victor functions mechanically, but it might just be the worst elite in the entire game in its current form. I cannot heal myself, I damage myself, drain all my energy, for hardly worthwile effects.

 I also feel it’s a missed opportunity to bring back the functionality of one of Cantha’s most iconic skills. In the original GW1 the ‘Shield of Saint Victor’ spawned a massive damage absorbing shield, so I am surprised this skill pulses healing while damaging yourself. Why not give out a massive barrier (like a fat 15k barrier with high healing power) with initial aegis/projectile block/attack block? This is a healing legend that is in dire need of a niche.

 

Issues with Vindicator traits:

Amnesty of Shing Jea:
Both of the effects feel underwhelming to me, simply because both a small jolt of regeneration or a single might stack won’t achieve much, especially on a playing field where some specs can put out 15-25 might on their own in addition to other boons and heals. I do think that a form of boonshare is the right way however.

 

Proposal:

Why not give Kurzick skills self-quickness or fury and allow it to share any boons it applies to itself with Kurzick skills to allies? If you then rebalance some of the boons on the Archemorus kit it might become worthwile to at least use them in groups.  Luxon ones can maybe either apply a short duration aegis or some barrier or maybe resolution for synergy with invocation, with perhaps later traits capitalising on this?

 

Leviathan's Strength:
I feel this is a mandatory trait in order to get around the clunkyness of the flip-over mechanic. This should honestly be an F3 skill as described in the mechanic section, and not a trait.
Rework this into an F3 skill and use this space for something else, the current mechanic of legend-flipping makes this trait 100% mandatory if you wish to enjoy the spec and not get frustrated.

 

Redemptor's Sermon:
I see little reason to take this in PvE on the DPS side of things, meaning this is mostly a support Vindicator trait. But...there is no reliable way of triggering this outside of camping Saint Victor’s Urn and praying something lightly taps you. You could argue that this is meant as an “OSHT” type of skill to go off and save your kitten when you get caught with your pants down, but I personally never found these type of traits very engaging, and there is a reason we rarely if ever see them around anymore.

 

Proposal: 

Rework so the effect can be reliably triggered in a way that does not involve camping Victor’s urn and praying for a foe to hit you with a light attack. Being reliant on randomly getting hit promotes bad plays and is not what I would consider a very attractive design.

 

Balance in Discord:
When you use Alliance Tactics (20-40 CD) or swap legends (10 CD) get a base 1.1k heal + 6 secs of regen worth a base of 780, meaning its a ~1.8k heal on roughly a 10 second cooldown ( the cooldown on legend swap). I suppose it will help a bit with staying power in combat, considering revenants will typically cycle through their legends on cooldown, but it’s not really that strong.

 

Perhaps keep this functionality for when Saint Victor is active/swapped to, and think of a 2nd type of effect for when Archemorus is active/swapped to? Perhaps Archemorus could do an offensive action or get some offensive boons?

 

Angsiyan’s Trust, Reaver’s Curse and Song of Arboreum:
Song of Arboreum is without a doubt the best endurance trait out of the three, it’s so superior there is almost zero reason to run the others as far as I can see in PvE. These three traits are essentially trying to solve a problem the devs created by giving the Vindicator only a single dodge, but only one of these options really feels as if it makes a difference. Both Reaver’s Curse and Angsiyan’s Trust are hilariously underpowered in comparison and it might be better to scrap them in favour of something else.

 

Some Proposals:

Perhaps this would be a good place for a greatsword trait? The spec could really use an additional damage modifier, so perhaps something like how on a greatsword-attack crit you summon the heads of the Luxon clans who try to copy that critical attack on your target after a delay? Tie a cooldown to it and you have a proc to dance and plan around while increasing the damage when used on the right skills.

 

Or maybe a trait that procs on crowd control  you inflict for damage and/or a damage buff? That could go in tandem with perhaps adding some cc to the Archemorus side of things, to solve the lack of CC it currently has.

This way you might solve the issue of Arboreum completely making the other two traits in its line look like thrash, and it might give people incentive to actually use some of the legend skills that give endurance based on foes hit (because they might be swayed into picking another DPS trait, meaning endurance has to come from somewhere else).

Empire Divided:
This truly is a punch in the gut of the Willbender. Willbender having to pick either power or healing power as an adept and needing to give up something substantial as well, and Vindicator getting both for almost free?

 

Proposal:

Maybe tie the stats to something else but health thresholds, because it would mean a support Saint Victor has to be permanently below 50% health to get any benefit from this, while having obviously a lot less use for the bonus power when above that threshold. The only way you are going to reliably get there is by channeling Saint Victor’s Urn for a prolonged period of time, meaning this part of this trait pretty much has the same problem as Redemptor’s Sermon: It completely hinges on camping the urn skill or praying you get pinged with a mild hit, which is a pretty passive way of doing things.

Should Anet decide to go with the idea of seperating Archemorus/Saint Victor into seperate legends that F2 switches between the solution is as simple as tying the stats to the channeling of the relevant legend, with possibly reduced bonuses of both stats when channeling a non legendary-alliance legend.

Forerunner of Death:
And there is our damageboost. Pretty much our only damageboost. 15% for 15 seconds, while doing damage on impact. I am mostly fine with this as an idea, but I do wonder how gamebreaking it would be to add a small daze component to it in addition to the damage and vulnerability when landing. Just to give it that ‘superman feeling’ and your opponents standing their shocked as you make the dramatic entrance. Would once again also solve some of the CC problem.  I would also keep an eye on the PvE damage so it’s not to low, because it would be a shame if the dodge, even with the 15% modifier, happens to not be enough, which is how it is currently looking.

 

The damage buff is not enough and the animation simply takes longer than needed. Perhaps the Vindicator could land/end the animation earlier, but keep some evade frames after landing?  The idea for this trait isn’t bad, but the execution of that idea is currently either lacking or not strong enough.

Saint of Zu Heltzer:
I really like this trait. It changes things, it has healing but more importantly barrier, while also reducing endurance costs required for its use. Combined with vigor and endurance management from the rest of the spec this could make for a very dodge-heavy healer and I really like that idea, it dares to be different, and the 20% healing bonus is the cherry on top. Only thing I would consider is making this 10 targets in PvE, just so it is on par with the target-cap of other supports. Very good trait imo, just not good enough to carry a support/heal Vindicator spec all on its own.

 

Vassals of the Empire:
Yeah...I have a bit of a problem with this one. Damage is going to pick Forerunner of Death, support and healers are probably going with Saint of zu Heltzer (or at least try to), so why would you pick Vassals of the Empire? For 10 might and protection? Both boons you can get from a support Renegade that isn’t sacrificing much? For the 2 second boon extension? Remember when Tempest got that boon extension with Sand Squall and how we all used it? Neither do I.  

 

In my opinion this trait could use an additional pass by the devs, because it seems like the other two completely overshadow it in most situations I could think off. Perhaps make it give out fury as well so you can maintain protection, fury and decent might stacks with the dodge. If Vindicator then gets a modifier aside from Forerunner of Death for damage this trait might become barely viable as a might/fury provider with some more side boons, but only very very bottom of the barrel barely ( It would feel a bit like maybe the old Phalanx Strength Warrior, which has been mostly absolete for a long time). The lack of a distinct boon/buff exclusively for Vindicator to give out hurts. It’s not like this trait is total trash, don’t get me wrong. But the other two options have way more distinct roles/purposes and give way stronger/better effects. I just can’t think off a situation where this would be better than either Forerunner of Death or Saint of zu Heltzer.

Closing statement

Vindicator is a daring spec that really tries to shake things up for the revenant. And despite some things like the flip-over and F mechanic feeling clunky to me, the undertuned damage and support options and some traits needing work, I feel like this has potential to be a cool spec with interesting gameplay options. I think Vindicator’s most pressing issues are fixable by Anet, but it depends on how much they are willing to invest.

DPS is fixeable by just adjusting a few numbers, but fixing some of the bigger issues like traits and legend skills would take a lot of work...I am unsure if Anet is willing to do that and if they are, how much time they would need to come up with alternatives.

 

If inspiration is an issue I hope Anet feels free to perhaps grab a bit of mild inspiration from my own interpretation of a Saint Victor/Archemorus dual spec:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/izlkld/presenting_my_concept_for_a_canthan_revenant_spec/

 

There are already some similarities, so I wouldn’t mind if something I did there inspires Anet to think off some fixes for Vindicator its current issues. I know how hard it is sometimes to come up with a fix for an issue when you are closely involved in a project, a new outlook often helps with getting inspiration (that’s what works for me at least, perhaps it can work for Anet as well!). Not saying it’s better, but it’s different, and sometimes seeing a different take helps.

Thanks for reading!

 

 

 

After reading all of it I can claim to agree with most of it. The only thing I don't agree on is the "f2 as a second legend swap", but you provided other options that I also have been pushing around and like. 

I seriously hope your analysis and suggestions don't go to waste. I'd love some fredback from the devs on the matter. Especially when you suggest what it takes to make Vindicator useful in PvE as a DPS and as a supporter. Because at the moment it cannot function in both of those roles (as you said, unless it has a ludicrous DPS). 

Let me add that the problem with the icons is also on the "splash" art that appears when summoning the legend. It's totally different in quality from core arts and HoT/PoF. It feels like a placeholder or there was a change of artist. 

The other problem with Forerunner of Death is the fact that, as by design, it must be used offensively, so you basically give up your ability to dodge if you use it on cooldown to keep the damage buff and CC. You can't have it "ready" as a dodge in case of emergency. Cool, but this needs a big payoff in sustain and blocking. 
 

Quote

Even worse, the best damage right now seems to come from ignoring this legend entirely and just play with Jalis and Shiro

Thanks. Tell this to people who say "but Vindicator is kicking kitten in PvP". Sure, with no GS and no Alliance, so 1/5th of the spec. Basically just Saint's Shield. 
 

Quote

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/izlkld/presenting_my_concept_for_a_canthan_revenant_spec/

Lol can't believe this is a post from 1 year ago. Saim idea, better execution. 

This is truly an amazing post. Great job. 

[Kidel.2057]

6 minutes ago, AdelaisAer.4109 said:

I'll repost here what I posted on the subreddit:

As someone with ADHD, I hate the vindicator so far. Having two sets of skills, switching back and forth, and keeping track of so many things, all just ends up being a nightmare. Maybe I’m playing it wrong, but it’s just way too confusing and all-over-the-place for me. I do like the new dodge and the greatsword skills, though.

The lack of boons compared to Herald and Renegade is just a huge con, alongside the very confusing gameplay mechanics. You constantly need to look at your skill bar and remember the two sets of skills that have little to nothing to do with another (i.e. a Luxon skill has nothing to do with its Kurzick counterpart).

I like the greatsword skills, and the new dodge mechanic is kinda cool. However, the rest of the skills are just a nightmare to deal with in high-level PvE maps, especially if you're gonna do meta events.

I already know there'll be people who disagree with me on my feedback, and that's fine - I am sure it can work well for someone who can micro-manage this sort of play-style. I, on the other hand, can't. I'll be sticking with Renegade and Herald, personally.

I don't think anybody disagrees with you here. 

The community is unanimously telling that the flipover management is a nightmare. If Anet decides to ignore this feedback for some reason than I don't really know why they do beta events and ask for feedback. It would be a huge middle finger to players. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

In response to the “why are conditions present on some of the skills” complaints:
 

It’s fairly simple; they’re there and intended to help support hybrid or condition damage variants in WvW/PvP.  Herald does the exact same thing with elemental blast and song of the mists which helps enable multiple build types in competitive settings.  Having options for pvp/wvw is only a good thing and we shouldn’t be looking to reduce options 
 

They can still increase the power damage massively for PvE while leaving the conditions on the skills. They don’t need to be removed in order to increase the damage for PvE since condis naturally have no scaling with zerker stats. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[AdelaisAer.4109]

6 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I don't think anybody disagrees with you here. 

The community is unanimously telling that the flipover management is a nightmare. If Anet decides to ignore this feedback for some reason than I don't really know why they do beta events and ask for feedback. It would be a huge middle finger to players. 

That's really good to hear. I look forward to Anet redesigning it completely. I think the core idea was really cool, but it was just poorly executed.

[Kidel.2057]

3 minutes ago, AdelaisAer.4109 said:

That's really good to hear. I look forward to Anet redesigning it completely. I think the core idea was really cool, but it was just poorly executed.

To be honest I don't have much hope on them redesigning it. But I've also never seen a beta feedback with ALL the posts about how we hate the loadout management (with some people even asking to split the 2 legends entirely). 

They should really learn from the Sonic live action movie here.🦔

Edited September 23, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[AdelaisAer.4109]

5 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

To be honest I don't have much hope on them redesigning it. But I've also never seen a beta feedback with ALL the posts about how we hate the loadout management (with some people even asking to split the 2 legends entirely). 

They should really learn from the Sonic live action movie here.🦔

Well, I'll give them the benefit of doubt. I'm gonna try to optimistically expect a new redesign where either we get two legends you can switch back and forth, or alternatively, getting a mix of Luxon and Kurzick skills (e.g. 6-7 could be Luxon, 8-9 could be Kurzick, 0 could be a combination of Luxon and Kurzick in one skill).

If they end up redesigning it and it's just as bad or worse, then I will have learned my lesson. If they don't redesign it, then I will just be extremely disappointed. I'm hoping that they do learn a lesson and give us something good, though.

[Jijimuge.4675]

Not a rev main, but something odd about the flip skills is that the elite skill "Spear of Archemorus" needs a target to be able to use it so, if one wants to get to "Urn of Saint Victor" and there are no targets around, one's only way of doing so is to use Alliance Tactics - seems a bit clunky.

[Kidel.2057]

15 minutes ago, Jijimuge.4675 said:

Not a rev main, but something odd about the flip skills is that the elite skill "Spear of Archemorus" needs a target to be able to use it so, if one wants to get to "Urn of Saint Victor" and there are no targets around, one's only way of doing so is to use Alliance Tactics - seems a bit clunky.

I've noticed that too but thought "why would I ever want to go into Urn?". But yeah, it's a problem if Urn gets good eventually. Another design issue with this terrible loadout management. 

[Keider.8652]

People made some good points already, but I'd like to add a few of my personal observations:

1. F2 not necessarily filling your endurance bar for a predictable amount, depending on the grand master used, makes it feel really awkward
2. F2 not flipping your skills as fast as a legend-swap feels off and unintuitive
3. F2 doing two different things means I've never used it for both effects: only either skill-swap or endurance gain
4. F2 doesn't interact with the other legends and doesn't stand as much on its own than the renegade skills
5. Icons look very different
6. The alliance skills are not terribly impactful for their cooldown
7. I rarely have the skills I need on hand because of the flip-over mechanic
8. There is no hard CC on any of the skills
9. There are no combos on the greatsword
10. There are no upkeep skills 😪

Overall it's still fairly fun, but it doesn't feel like I'm playing a revenant: the energy management is minimal since there are no upkeep skills and the skill effects (outside of Greatsword 5) don't have that revenant flair.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Keider.8652
typos

[Jthug.9506]

3 hours ago, SnakeKouki.6503 said:

Please, please, please hear me out. Get rid of the horrible Elite skills and move the leap "dodge" move as the Elite skill. The elite spear sucks, and the elite heal sucks. Get RID of them. The whole leap was like the eye candy big showy thing of the Vindicator. Make it the ELITE!!! keep the traits which are focused on the leap anyway. It basically makes it appear as if the leap is the elite skill anyway so move it to the elite button.

 

Add actual dodges back because it doesn't matter what game mode you are in you HAVE to dodge. The class was described as being more focused on larger fights but in larger fights you need DODGES. I tried the leap dodge and got shot out of the sky and instantly spiked to death. It's pointless. 

 

PVE, PVP, WvW, Raids, Strikes, Fractals, Hell even beginner training there is a point that you NEED DODGES. 

 

I love the Great Sword abilities and I think they can work great but I probably will never run Vindicator if there isn't a way to dodge properly. That's a shame because I feel like I've been waiting and hoping for years that Rev gets GS.

 

And the switch back and forth from Archie and Vic seemed good at first but it's very clunky and doesn't work if you are running a power only or support only build. Alac Renegade makes a way better Hybrid DPS/Support class with Harrier gear. You can't change your stats on a cool down to match so it's really not going to work. I think it should stay on whatever you have it set to and it stays that way during combat and you get out of combat to switch. But also all these cooldowns and such don't feel like a Rev at all. What's the point of having an Upkeep Bar anymore? Make it so that instead of a cool down after you use and Archie skill that if you have enough Upkeep you can use the Vic skill right afterwards and then there is a small cooldown afterwards because you just blew both moves. That would be more like a Rev is you ask me.

Ain't gonna happen, the mechanic is here to stay, best we can hope for is that they shorten the length of the dodges. The heal dodge works well, IMO they should all be that short. I did several hours of gvg team fight training on it last night with the damage dodge, it's fine. Just take hammer and don't get into the fight until the other team has blown most of their cooldowns, then dodge in and swap to GS and do work, use energy sigils and take both retribution and the bottom middle trait in vindicator for 100% more endurance gain from vigor. I had no issues with survivability, however I did go dwarf shiro instead of the new legend, the alliance legend is not good enough right now to replace either dwarf or shiro. They need to fix the elite skills, and the cast times on the heals are way to high. Also there has GOT to be some hard CC in the alliance legend somewhere if it's going to see play.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Kidel.2057]

15 minutes ago, Keider.8652 said:

There are no upkeep skills 😪

There is one and I wish it wasn't there. I agree on the rest. 

[Keider.8652]

1 minute ago, Kidel.2057 said:

There is one and I wish it wasn't there. I agree on the rest. 

Fair enough, but not something you want to stay in like the other legends 🙂

And nothing for the damage side!

Edited September 23, 2021 by Keider.8652

[lunaeclipse.6843]

Whatever you do to the spec, I dont wanna lose current GS5. I love this skill so much. Sure, change the blade animation if need be, but I love the mist portals exploding everywhere and rapid high damage numbers from it.

[Jthug.9506]

1 minute ago, Ertrak.9506 said:

Whatever you do to the spec, I dont wanna lose current GS5. I love this skill so much. Sure, change the blade animation if need be, but I love the mist portals exploding everywhere and rapid high damage numbers from it.

I agree, GS5 is amazing and I love it. I would like to see GS4 tuned up a bit to be more dangerous, IMO if you get it to block a lot of attacks it should hit harder than anything else in the kit.

[Kidel.2057]

GS is definitely a pro, just needs some tweaks to be different than double sword, but it doesn't have to be redone from scratch like the legend and F2. 

[makagoto.1204]

If Vindicator stays the way it is right now then i will give it a pass on release. So far the only two especs that got me intrigued are the virtuoso and the BS warrior. I could care less if either the engineer or the ranger get a nice escpec instead, but for now it seems anet doesn't really know what to do with those especs. Just from watching the stream back then i got the vibe they are fast forwarding those specs. They shouldn't ignore timers and skill/traits synergy just to try skills on their own. That's not how GW2 works. Instead of nerfing all the professions into the ground they should think more about what it takes to make them more fun to play. In GW1 i could try thousands of skills and most of them had their place and time. Maybe this is the first expansion pack i will give a pass since the release of GW1.

[Ashamir.9574]

I only play rev in WvW. Did Raids and PvP with it a few years ago, but never played PvE.

 

The Greatsword skills of the Vindicator are fun. It's a nice spread of damage and utility, range and movement. Personally, I had fun playing around with the dodge, can see that being used in fractals/raids for a kind of perma evade/damage class. The traits seem very much focused on the dodge as well, a little too much,. actually. I would have liked some more variety there.

 

The damage is... lackluster. I mean I don't die (Ele, say hi) but I also don't hit hard. It feels like you will die eventually, simply because your sustain is average and you take ages to take anything down. The dodge is fun, though doesn't hit super hard either.

 

For the icons: contrary to the Ele, both the Rev and the War, like the Necro, have obviously unfinished graphics. The weapon skills utilities and trait lines are bare-bone and in need of work. I assume these are placeholders, but pointing it out on the off chance I'm wrong.

[Hence.3542]

This is just from what I’ve experienced in the small bite I played and looked through. 
Good - 

-I really like the ideas behind this class. I like the idea of the duality of the class being heal and dps.

- And I like the jump mechanic. 
-The great sword seems pretty nice too. It didn’t super grab me with anything interesting on it though. I didn’t use it a lot. 
- heal jump spam is very satisfying as a healer for big shields and heals while Ventari sits under me and heals. But it does get a bit stale. 
 

Bad -

-The F2 mechanic feels lazy. It really only having a proper function within the alliance legend feels awful. 
-F2 should interact with every legend - potentially as an extra defensive option for each legend (evade for alliance, block for Jalis, Absorb for Ventari ect.)

- The traits in some places feel too safe and exclusionary to the Alliance legend.
- The Alliance utilities don’t feel great to use especially as they start flipping and it becomes less controlled on what you need. They don’t feel very powerful either. 
- the urn elite especially feels bad as others have mentioned. Cool idea but it doesn’t feel

Impactful enough or is a death sentence. If you don’t run out of energy. 
 

 

suggestions?

-The Dps jump could rain spears down on enemies while the jump aims and increase damage for each enemy hit before the final slam. Make it easier to use this jump and potentially end it early to trigger damage. 
- remove the boon jump and replace it with a jump that can jump once for damage and immediately again for healing. 

-The F2 could have defensive options to provide backup for not having extra dodges at the cost of energy. 
- Have more traits that interact with the idea of duality. When you heal others you get damage buff. When you damage an enemy you gain a heal to others buff.  Have a trait that restores endurance when attacking and when healing on long cooldowns. Triggering one lowers the cooldown of the other.

- The Alliance utilities need changes in numbers but they shouldn’t have long cooldowns and should be mainly energy gated. 

- make Song of Arboreum a minor trait?

- An idea: give a unique buff that affects nearby allies when hitting with kurzick skills that increases their damage in some way. And when helping allies with Luxon skills grant A buff to self that increases the damage of the next kurzick ability. Can only retrigger these unique buffs by activating the other. Could have traits that affect these unique buffs. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Hence.3542

[Zeivu.3615]

Not a fan about the HP requirements of the urn, but everything else is a button mashers paradise. Chaotic OP madness. My mind can barely keep up on this. I would hate to face this in PVP.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Zeivu.3615

[zallesz.1650]

OK, I already posted both an immediate and a detailed feedback, but here is my day 3 opinion:

Why did we need healing on this spec? 

Core rev can do healing, we have a dedicated healing weapon, a dedicated legend. Herald is effectively a support spec, a boon machine. Renegade is one of the most wanted support specs, and can also be played as a top-notch healer. 

WHY on Earth did we need another spec that has healing capabilities? Why can't we just get a single, selfish, power dps spec? We already have like 4 ways to play support or healer, we don't need a fifth, especially when it is bundles together with a power dps spec, thus taking away from its effectiveness. 

I just cannot imagine what the idea was behind it. 

Lorewise, the dual legend makes sense, and it is super cool, not gonna lie. But then make it so that Arch is like, ultra mega dps, and Saint is literally just utilities, evades, cc-s and maybe some selfbuffs. 

Worst part is that, even though we now have a 5th additional heal-support kit, it is arguably the worst of them all, and is basically overshadowed by Ventari in terms of healing, and Renegade for its alacrity. 

#notanothersupportspec

[Zenith.7301]

Archemorus and Saint Viktor also lack serious visual distinctiveness, which is why the garish orange and blue feels so out of place with the class's theme, as well as the legend swap portrait. It feels like for a legend we got two nobodies, because while they are involve in Shiro's defeat (they only delivered the coup de grace), they were not fleshed out ingame enough aesthetically or in personality to be effective legends.

 

You had so much design space. Jora was the obvious missing norn legend we needed. But even if you wanted to stick to Cantha, which makes no sense because you discarded an Elonian legend in favor of some charr NPC that wasn't even present in GW1's live game in PoF, why did EoD have this strict rule that the legend needed to be from Cantha if PoF did not play by this rule?

 

Even then there are so many more Canthan figures that are more fleshed out and better in keeping with the revenant theme unless you overhaul the aesthetics of Archemorus and Saint Viktor. They legit look like random foot soldiers in bright orange and blue armor. Like some cheap children's cartoon.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

The class really became a lot better when not using the legendary Alliance, and that is a massive problem.

 

I also honestly feel like, flipover mechanic aside, the new legends are incredibly boring. None of the utility skills bring anything new to the table. Just more dash in / dash out like Shiro, condi cleanse and healing like ventari, etc. The only unique skills are the 2k range elite and Urn that is kinda horrible to use as many have pointed out.

 

Also there seems to be a massive obsession with making rev a hybrid in all elite specs, even when they should be offensive. Herald was a support. Renegade was in theory, an offensive support, supposedly improving condi builds, but ended up having a buckton of alacrity and healing. Now we have a dual offense / support legend again. Focus on ONE of them for once please, we already have the 4 core legends to compliment the elite specs. The same goes for traits.

 

This clearly wants to be an offensive spec the way the greatsword is set-up. I will have to echo most of the suggestions and ask that you make F2 switch the entire set. I like the flipover mechanic on paper but it is way too combersome to manage in practice. If I'm already having trouble in PvE, I can't imagine anyone using this comfortably in competitive modes.

 

I also tried making a support build and it works quite well for the most part, but having to deal with the flipover mechanic also makes this too cumbersome to play. It also feels like as a support it's lacking. You don't bring anything other than raw healing and a bit of barrier, which can be easily achieved by many other healers while also bringing the main two boons (quickness and alacrity), insane revival carry (tempest and scourge specially) or unique buffs with druid. Support Vindicator needs something to compete. The dodge spam to heal and barrier is actually pretty fun to use, specially with endurance gain on allies affected and sigil of energy.

 

My proposal

 

This would be a massive undertaking so I'm definitely not expecting it to happen, BUT, since we have a very specific duality between offense and support with the new legend and Alliance tactics, I would really like to see this affect ALL legends. Offensive legends would get a defensive set, and vice versa. Using alliance tactics in any legend would swap them between their offensive kit or their defensive kit.

 

In this case Ventari and Jalis being more defensive oriented would get new, more offensive sets of skills. Mallyx and Shiro would get defensive sets of skills.

 

This would mean a total of 20 new skills which is...quite a lot admittedly, but hey, they've gone the extra mile for Ele twice already so why not give rev some love as well?

 

Realistic proposal

 

Leaving crazy ideas aside, if we have to work with what we have already, as stated the easiest solution is no flipover unless using alliance tactics. Power dodge should not be such a long animation NOR cost 150 endurance. I get the gimminck of increasing or decreasing the endurance they cost but 150 is just ridiculous. Make this one 125 at most if you have to go with the mechanic, but I would still leave it at 100 like the middle dodge. I've been using the middle a lot and it feels quite comfy, can be used relatively often so it gives you that cool FF Dragoon playstyle, without being so long that you feel like you are just leaving the battlefield.

Also remove the animation lock on all the dodges at the end and improve their evasiveness, I've still been hit by stuff mid dodge, but I expect that to be polished since it's just beta.

 

Then give the traits another pass, most of them range from incredibly weak to straight up detrimental. Increasing F2 cooldown if you don't bring Legendary Alliance with no gain whatsoever is...wow, how did this get through.

 

The alliance stance is fine if the flipover is not force, although I find it incredibly boring and repetitive compared to what other legends already did. Spice it up.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

4 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

You had so much design space. Jora was the obvious missing norn legend we needed. But even if you wanted to stick to Cantha, which makes no sense because you discarded an Elonian legend in favor of some charr NPC that wasn't even present in GW1's live game in PoF, why did EoD have this strict rule that the legend needed to be from Cantha if PoF did not play by this rule?

 

I hate this honestly. This was THE time to give us floating Balthazar greatsword which was clamored for and they went with two boring legends from literaly the exact point in the timeline as Shiro. I hate that they forced themselves into a Cantha legend. Revenants should not even exist in Cantha to begin with since it's still closed borders and Rytlock is the first revenant. 

[Axl.8924]

You know what just for you guys i'm going to test herald support vs this new spec with jump to compare and see how they do just to see how performance wise as a healer support it holds up.

[ArtimisTau.7902]

Alliance only had one upkeep skill which is a big part of Revenant. So with that line of reasoning, make the spear elite an upkeep. So Arch just keeps huckin' spears till you turn it off or hit zero energy. Balance the damage obviously. Additionally, get rid of the terrible self-damage on Urn and have the boons proc every second After you channel for x amount of seconds. Urn is honestly terrible and it's possible to down yourself with it. Also, why can't Urn be double clicked, right now it had a second ICD from activation before you can drop it.