Stop ruining new Elite Specs with trade-offs, cast times and insane aftercasts

[mortrialus.3062]

8 minutes ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

I haven't played all of the current testing e-specs yet, but I had a lot of fun with the last 3.  You do have to remember every beta class we are getting is unpolished and is still currently being worked on by Anet, so changes will happen. 

 

Trade-offs are something Anet was planning since the HoT e-specs, but some of the HoT specs didn't get trade-offs.  Only later did they hit the over-performing specs with trade-offs in the form of nerfs. 

Anet's design for tradeoff simply doesn't make sense most of the time.  

Take druid.  It didn't have a trade off in the literal skill to skill sense, but the way the weapon, the traits, and the mechanic were designed if you took druid it meant inherently you could never rival the damage output of a core ranger.

Meanwhile Holosmith loses it's elite toolbelt skill which are all solid but hardly godly skills, and in return Holosmith provides the player;

• More damage through both Photon Forge and Traits and several of the Exceed tootbelt skills.
• More active mitigation frames through the use of Utilities such as Photon Wall.
• More straight durability and face tank through utilities like Hard Light Arena and Spectrum Shield.
• More mobility through forge abilities like Photon Leap.
• More sustain through things like Heat Therapy.
• More CC through Forge, Utilities, and traits.
• More condition cleanse through traits like Prismatic Converter.

If core specializations look like this;

https://i.imgur.com/8OP0VMq.png

Then elite specializations should be looking like this

https://i.imgur.com/GgFnJg3.png

And sometimes trade offs work for that.  Sometimes they don't. 

[mortrialus.3062]

12 minutes ago, Blocki.4931 said:

Or, and you could take the approach that actually makes sense and doesn't just blatantly disrespect the entirety of the last two years, you tune them according to feedback gathered so that the ones that feel awful to play due to an abundance of those issues to be fixed.

Why should people respect the last two years?  Minionmancer, a build developers and players both agreed should not be allowed to be good in PvP when we ended the zoo meta, is winning MATs now.

Edited September 22, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[DaZeeHero.5210]

whoever decided that was pretty dumb. having good counters to a playstyle in pvp fixes much more than nerfing a playstyle people find OP.

 

Sometimes a nerf is required, but it is very rare if ever that you need to make something not good or viable at all. 

 

Stealth spam getting too OP in pvp? that's because not enough people can reveal stealth or keep people from re entering it, for instance.

[Sindrener.1592]

45 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

There's always going to be tier lists and some classes / characters / builds will be on the top of the list while others on the bottom.  And we were way closer to balance before the megabalance than we are now, where at least every profession had one or more builds that was excellent for PvP. 

Like in the patch right before megabalance we had.

1.  Both Reaper and Core necro were both excellent, meta even, but weren't absolutely flooding the game. Scourge would have been good if it wasn't dealing with the loss of self shade.

2.  Support Tempest and Fire Weaver were excellent choices with Fire Weaver being the best sidenoder in the game. Core ele needed help.

3. Spellbreaker was excellent and core warrior was solid.  Beserker needed help after getting reworked and immediately nerfed.

4. Holo had 2 excellent builds, rifle and prot.  Scrapper had a number of solid but not excellent builds.  Core engineer needed help.

5. Firebrand had support and symbolbrand both of which were excellent.  Power core guard was gutted, but had a solid support build. DH was an okay C to B tier spec.

6. Revenant was still stuck with power herald which was meta.  Core could use help and renegade, like minionmancer, probably shouldn't be good in PvP in the first place.  At least Kalla legend shouldn't.

7.  Ranger had solid core and soulbeast builds but druid was struggling. 

8.  Thief was meta with Shadow Arts core.  DP daredevil and SD core were solid. 

9.  Condi Mirage was excellent and power core and mirage were solid.  Chronomancer was unviable after the removal of illusory persona. 

 

I'd go back to that in a heartbeat than the game we have no where ranked is a necro fiesta with matches being 40-60% necromancers.  And really the only core builds that were really really struggling were ele and engie and oh hey the megabalance didn't fix that.

100% there was some specs overperforming pre feb. Core dp thief was an absolute abomination, water weaver/and fire to some extent. Those prolly the most noticeable i can remember. Herald perhaps as well.

I would still take that meta/balance in  a heartbeat of what we have had so far lol

i still think trade offs should get reverted and please for godsake can we get some amulets back so wr have more options to theorycraft.. if spec is overperforming analyse what and then bring it down in a proper manner not a nuclear bomb of nerfs to unplayable…

Edited September 22, 2021 by bluri.2653

[mortrialus.3062]

1 minute ago, bluri.2653 said:

100% there was some specs overperforming pre feb. Core dp thief was an absolute abomination, water weaver/and fire to some extent. Those prolly the most noticeable i can remember. Herald perhaps as well.

 

i still think trade offs should get reverted and please for godsake can we get some amulets back so wr have more options to theorycraft.. if spec is overperforming analyse what and then bring it down in a proper manner not a nuclear bomb of nerfs to unplayable…

Oh for sure there were overpowered specs, Shadow Arts DP sticks out like a thumb.  But it was a way more varied and healthy environment than what we're seeing now.  And I will take Shadow Arts DP over 4-6 necros every game.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

45 minutes ago, Blocki.4931 said:

Or, and you could take the approach that actually makes sense and doesn't just blatantly disrespect the entirety of the last two years, you tune them according to feedback gathered so that the ones that feel awful to play due to an abundance of those issues to be fixed.

Honestly who even cares about the past 2 years. Everything after 2/25/2020 was and still is a complete joke anyway.

 

If someone were to go back and undo every major pvp balance update since that time, then PvP overall would objectively have more content in general.

 

 

When it comes to tradeoffs, I think @JusticeRetroHunter.7684and @mortrialus.3062have the right ideas. When done right, tradeoffs are the better way to do balance, but its important to get them right. 

 

They don't feel right with the new elite specs, because CMC has filled them all with too many huge takeaways as part of their balance philosophy. There's too many to the extent where they don't feel like tradeoffs, they just feel like strait downgrades. 

 

(This is just an example, don't hurt me pls) But DH has like 0 major tradeoffs. Willbender has like 3 major tradeoffs just in their traits alone.

Why even play Willbender in that case? 🤡

 

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Well so much for me looking forward to any of the elite specs, unless major changes are made.

[Lucentfir.7430]

3 minutes ago, DaZeeHero.5210 said:

Well so much for me looking forward to any of the elite specs, unless major changes are made.

The first impressions of these specs are kinda downers after actually playing them in a PVP/WvW environment. Honestly makes me wish they'd stop making E-specs all together now and just go with making new full fledge profession per expansion now. 

[Roads.5130]

1 hour ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

They don't feel right with the new elite specs, because CMC has filled them all with too many huge takeaways as part of their balance philosophy.

But also because they haven't finished working on them, hence the name 'beta event'.

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Yeah we have some months before end of dragons lets hope they fix it.

[crewthief.8649]

On 9/21/2021 at 2:36 PM, mortrialus.3062 said:

It's better to make exciting new elite specs / classes / characters in games that are ambition and you know have the tools to succeed, tone them down as needed, than make weak unviable new characters and classes that don't have the tools to succeed and try to puzzle out exactly what they're missing or letting them languish unplayed for years. 

The new specs reek of CMC's philosphy.

It really is as if “fun factor” is a secondary consideration. I’m not a super hardcore player or anything, I have a job, wife, kids, etc.. I’ve been playing GW2 since launch and honestly, being a Warrior main, I’ve been seriously considering just moving on from this game. Given the Feb 2020 patch, and now these overly penalized especs, that may not be a bad option, to be honest. The game has become a chore.

The whole notion of a tradeoff is that you lose something while gaining something else. It is important that the loss is equitable as it pertains to the gain. Taking Blade Sworn as an example, the following penalties are assessed in order to access the spec mechanic:

- Loss of weapon swap

- Loss of Burst skills

In order to access the “big payoff” (Dragon Slash), in addition to the above, the following is sacrificed:

- Movement (must remain stationary to access big damage payoff)

- Fluidity (must “charge” big damage payoff while remaining stationary, without stability)

The “big payoff” amounts to 4-6k crit in full-on damage gear. So, what’s gained? Honestly? Nothing. Why would you play this over literally anything else (that isn’t an EoD spec)? I find it very difficult to believe that these people (Anet) do not understand the concept of a properly executed tradeoff; something that any Freshman Business major understands halfway through their first semester. Honestly…

Edited September 23, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[nerva.7940]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:23 PM, snoow.1694 said:

And I know, people generally hate on the PoF meta, but there is no denying that power creep right at the release of an expansion is alot more fun for PvP than whatever this is supposed to be right now.

LOL. Um, the power creep on PoF's release is EXACTLY why I uninstalled the game for 2 years (after about a month of playing). Give me a break. I'm glad they're thinking about tradeoffs right out the gate. You kidding me?

[nerva.7940]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:36 PM, mortrialus.3062 said:

The new specs reek of CMC's philosphy.

Perfect. I like it. I'm actually not even buying EoD until I'm convinced the trash powercreep meta from PoF isn't present. 

[crewthief.8649]

2 minutes ago, nerva.7940 said:

LOL. Um, the power creep on PoF's release is EXACTLY why I uninstalled the game for 2 years (after about a month of playing). Give me a break. I'm glad they're thinking about tradeoffs right out the gate. You kidding me?

Except they don’t seem to actually understand what a tradeoff is.

[mortrialus.3062]

10 minutes ago, nerva.7940 said:

Perfect. I like it. I'm actually not even buying EoD until I'm convinced the trash powercreep meta from PoF isn't present. 

Cuz what this game really needs is another 5 years of everyone impotently and limp wristedly slapping each other while no one dies. 

[Kuya.6495]

The duality of man: Complaining that the new elite specs have too much counterplay, whilst every other thread in the forum is complaining about scourges being unkillable, and warriors, rangers and revs bursting people into oblivion in seconds flat. 🤷‍♂️

 

I for one think they just need to nerf the PoF and HoT specs to be in line with the newer elites (some specs, like willbender and catalyst, still need some adjustments). 

[Salt Mode.3780]

I doubt those calling power creep dont really understand where the power creep is and is blaming class mechanics as power creep. Thats why ANET devs don't know how to nerf or balance things cuz they themselves dont know. Power creep started when HoT dropped and PoF just continued it. 

Its quite hilarious PoF was the blame for whats happening now when HoT was the start of it. People are just ignorant and yell power creep when they cant handle or fight a class because they are ignorant to learn the class themselves.

Like many have said before, Necros are strong now because everything got weaker while necro did not get nerfed down to the weakened state of every other class that got nerfed.

MM Builds were a meme before everything got tuned down and often not you would get reported for trolling a match with a MM build. People making bold statements claiming they know kitten when in reality those who support CMC's philosophy is the cause of the downfall. 

SPvP was doomed when HoT dropped. When you open the floodgates there is no point in trying to go back because the damage is already done. EoD specs would've been great if it was the first expansion but sadly this is the third and its going to underperform and all they will be good for is PvE if even that. Like the way the e-specs are performing its more like a alpha test then beta, doubt they will be able to fix much of the issues they are facing now with a couple months considering their track record in the "CMC" past.

At least HoT and PoF specs brought things to the table other then just DPS.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Tescao.3042]

Slowing down in its own form does not necessarily have to stimulate the meta sustain. In addition to power creep, there are also peak values of sustain, as well as peak values of bursts and how quickly people can reach these peak values and also how long this peak value will last. There is an analogy with fine-tuning the torque in turbocharged cars and getting the desired result. This, in turn, can have a favorable impact on the core, hot and pof specializations and their weapons/utilites, which are currently artificially slowed down.

Edited September 23, 2021 by DomHemingway.8436

[Spellhunter.9675]

10 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

There's always going to be tier lists and some classes / characters / builds will be on the top of the list while others on the bottom.  And we were way closer to balance before the megabalance than we are now, where at least every profession had one or more builds that was excellent for PvP. 

Like in the patch right before megabalance we had.

1.  Both Reaper and Core necro were both excellent, meta even, but weren't absolutely flooding the game. Scourge would have been good if it wasn't dealing with the loss of self shade.

2.  Support Tempest and Fire Weaver were excellent choices with Fire Weaver being the best sidenoder in the game. Core ele needed help.

3. Spellbreaker was excellent and core warrior was solid.  Beserker needed help after getting reworked and immediately nerfed.

4. Holo had 2 excellent builds, rifle and prot.  Scrapper had a number of solid but not excellent builds.  Core engineer needed help.

5. Firebrand had support and symbolbrand both of which were excellent.  Power core guard was gutted, but had a solid support build. DH was an okay C to B tier spec.

6. Revenant was still stuck with power herald which was meta.  Core could use help and renegade, like minionmancer, probably shouldn't be good in PvP in the first place.  At least Kalla legend shouldn't.

7.  Ranger had solid core and soulbeast builds but druid was struggling. 

8.  Thief was meta with Shadow Arts core.  DP daredevil and SD core were solid. 

9.  Condi Mirage was excellent and power core and mirage were solid.  Chronomancer was unviable after the removal of illusory persona. 

 

I'd go back to that in a heartbeat than the game we have no where ranked is a necro fiesta with matches being 40-60% necromancers.  And really the only core builds that were really really struggling were ele and engie and oh hey the megabalance didn't fix that.

In pre-megabalance times meta was a shitshow. Powercreep was so high that usually u had no way to fight back or counterplay.

1. Reaper and Core necro wasn't exellent or meta. I was litterraly flamed couple of times for playing core necro in plat.

2. Support Tempest was deadweight. Only water weaver was meta last months before patch. And it was much worse than MM necro.

3. I Agree.

4. Scrapper wasn't meta or exellent.

5 Mostly agree.

6. Revenant was kitten. And was usually stacked in matches. I choose to play vs duo of scourges or core necros any day at least there is a room for counterplay, but heralds... oh my.

7. I don't remember tbh, so will virtually agree.

8. Agree, but mostly SD and DP were played.

9. Only mirage was meta.

 

So, we had water weaver vs MM necro we have now, we had double herald or double holo every game vs double core/scourge necro we have now. We had busted SD thief and condi mirage.

 

It was the same shitshow but with different icons on minimap. I personally prefer post-megabalnce meta because now I have time to play the game instead of dying in 2 seconds after I take a step from no-port spot. But megabalance should be just the fist stage as anet promised. But they didn't do anything meaningfull after.

I believe people actually not frustrated by overtuned necro or trapper dh or whatever. But they are frustrated because there is obviously something overtuned remains untouched by too long.

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

8 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

But also because they haven't finished working on them, hence the name 'beta event'.

Consider that my feedback then. In PvP the new specs all feel too CMCified.

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Trade offs are an important part of class balance but it's tough to get right especially in a game like GW2 where each class and spec can be built many ways.

 

The trade off can never be too extreme or be trading for something that is only useful in limited situations because that ends up making it weak or just only useful in those situations.

You also need to consider the interaction with every other ability able to be used with said skill on that spec. sometimes if you can't perfectly balance it, it's better to look at something else normally used to boost it, most of the time something that is OP is not OP in a vaccum it is OP when combined with other factors. by limiting how those factors contribute to that specific skill, you can nerf without nerfing it directly, which is sometimes the better option.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:23 PM, snoow.1694 said:

I can imagine from which influencial GW2 streamer you got the inspiration to heavily handicap the new elite specs through trade-offs, but you are creating completely useless specs for PvP in the process. We have seen 6 elite specs so far, of which all except Harbinger and Vindicator feel crippled before they are even released.

I know these are just betas, but fixing numbers won‘t fix specs when their designs are completely flawed. 
I am especially disappointed in how Willbender and Bladesworn turned out and hope there will be a major rework for most of the specs before the release, if EoD is truly meant to be the best expansion of all time.

And I know, people generally hate on the PoF meta, but there is no denying that power creep right at the release of an expansion is alot more fun for PvP than whatever this is supposed to be right now.

The problem isn't that the new e-specs have tradeoffs, rather that they are simply unviable with their current tuning/design. Bladesworn having no weaponswap isn't a tradeoff thats crippling the spec, it's what they get in return. You are supposed to get something at least equal to what you've lost, with nieches where you are clearly way better off(Like deadeye vs core thief in terms of ranged damage).
A-net just got the tuning(and in the case of Bladesworn and Willbender) the design of the new kits wrong.

But the idea of having tradeoffs is actually good. Let's hope a-net gets them right by the end of all the betas. Or we'll we see mid-season reworks of specs again? Like deadeye got in 2018 spring that prevented me from getting a top 25 title which im definitely not salty about? Who knows, we'll see!

Also powercreep is fun as long as you are discovering it. Once the meta starts to settle it just becomes a problem like it was with PoF for like 4 years. So no to powercreep, yes to tradeoffs.
 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Anybody against cast time / aftercasts / animations is against skillful play. If anything, poor tells is exactly what a lot of other specs lack, and this philosophy should be retroactively applied to the balance of previous specs. I will take better tells over "JuSt InCrEasE ThE cOoLdOwNz" any day. 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Master Ketsu.4569

[ThrakathNar.4537]

24 minutes ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Anybody against cast time / aftercasts / animations is against skillful play. If anything, poor tells is exactly what a lot of other specs lack, and this philosophy should be retroactively applied to the balance of previous specs. I will take better tells over "JuSt InCrEasE ThE cOoLdOwNz" any day. 

 

 

Cast times and proper animations sure, the stronger the skill the bigger the animation.

But aftercasts? That's missing the point of what people don't like about them. People are annoyed about how they restrict the flow of the game, especially when the aftercast is on a mobility skill.

The Willbender F1 skill is supposed to give you mobility, but because it just locks you in place at the end of the animation, it just nullifies any benefit you get from the mobility aspect of the skill.

If a skill is designed to move you, in order for the game to feel fluid, it should not have a static aftercast.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

It's lack of creativity. 

 

The idea behind a trade-off is built upon the change of playstyle the espec offers. Berserker, Spellbreaker etc. There is no need for further trait trade-offs when you create a mechanic which is supposed to interact differently with the core aspects of a class. 

 

Why has this still not been realised? Why does willbender need the 3 trade-off traits when it doesn't even have virtue passive effects to share with allies? 

 

Why does Berserker need - 300 toughness when it's burst mode is time gated and thus cannot heal itself as quickly as Core warrior to have both it's sustain and higher dmg? 

 

They simply lack creativity. Scrapper, Berserker etc are elites that the team had no meaningful changes to make for their mechanics, which resulted in adding a fake trade-off in the form of Stat distribution to match different class weight. All in all that's a failure imo. 

 

Its been said before. This is a beta, I've been running tests like crazy with Bladesworn, have suggested solutions to the issues and pointed out said issues and why we need the change, and will hope my posts and other warrior main posts are seen in a sea of suggestions from people who returned to warrior just to have fun killing mobs in Desert Highlands and go 'wooo 50k lol' only to drop the spec 2 hours later and keep doing their normal stuff.