Am I playing a MMO game or reading a book?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

36 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

Look at the Wiki entry for Corpse Takers. Most of the information is missing and what is there is considered "stub entries". 

So, why don't you edit the article?  There's even a place to just leave feedback/information if you don't feel comfortable editing the article. 

[Astralporing.1957]

36 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

What would be an example of such a hardcore system?

The whole freeform build/gearing system multiplies even small differences in skill and knowledge into big gaps in effectiveness. It is a system that is aimed primarily at the more harcore-minded players - those that can utilize that system to the fullest. This is the primary reason for massive gaps in effectiveness between average and top players - gaps that are much, much smaller in other games in the genre. The encounter system being based around action combat, and skill use being heavily depended on speed and precision of your keypresses doesn't help there.

It is a system that would be a great boon to any hardcore-targeted game, but is an absolute disaster (for both players and devs) when utilized in a game where a huge majority of players are casuals.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

duplicate post as a result of forum hiccup

Edited October 4, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Maikimaik.1974]

31 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The whole freeform build/gearing system multiplies even small differences in skill and knowledge into big gaps in effectiveness. It is a system that is aimed primarily at the more harcore-minded players - those that can utilize that system to the fullest. This is the primary reason for massive gaps in effectiveness between average and top players - gaps that are much, much smaller in other games in the genre.

I'm not sure if I might be misunderstanding something, but this doesn't make any sense to me.

Meta builds are public, everybody can look for builds and easily find the current meta. There are also way more viable build options than in other MMOs I've played. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Maikimaik.1974

[Khisanth.2948]

There are 4 basic options.

1. discover everything on your own
2. learn from others
3. combination of 1 and 2
4. complain on the forum

 

1 hour ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

I figured out how to do that event simply by trying. I didn't have to look anything up.

Yeah that was a weird example. I've never had to look anything up for those nor had any discussion about them with anyone nor seen any discussion about them in map chat.

That may also explains why there is nothing written about them. Most people aren't going to consider writing any sort of aid for things  they thought was easy.

 

1 hour ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

What would be an example of such a hardcore system?

before that it would be necessary to define what is or isn't hardcore but that will never happen because nobody can agree

[misterman.1530]

2 hours ago, Dami.5046 said:

Not really an entry that will break your game progression is it? 😆

 

Who said anything about game progression? I'm simply pointing out one example of the wiki not providing a lot of viable information. That's only because their odd mechanic was fresh in my mind, so I looked it up for the post just to see...and I noticed the incomplete entry. I was replying to someone's post about just /wiki it.

[misterman.1530]

2 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

So, why don't you edit the article?  There's even a place to just leave feedback/information if you don't feel comfortable editing the article. 

Don't care enough to edit. 

[Borked.6824]

14 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

This seems par for the course in RPGs, both MMO and single player.

You might rephrase to "modern MMO".  WoW took a turn right around it's peak which ushered in heavy reliance on outside resources, and that was coincidentally the time when it plummeted without recovery.  Ever since this reliance, the genre and its players have turned into heady, angsty, antisocial creatures.  I've historically always used outside resources for MMOs, but for things like min/maxing and tweaking, by choice.  To firmly require them for every aspect of the game is literally breaking the immersion, along with other socially degrading side-effects.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The whole freeform build/gearing system multiplies even small differences in skill and knowledge into big gaps in effectiveness. It is a system that is aimed primarily at the more harcore-minded players - those that can utilize that system to the fullest. This is the primary reason for massive gaps in effectiveness between average and top players - gaps that are much, much smaller in other games in the genre. The encounter system being based around action combat, and skill use being heavily depended on speed and precision of your keypresses doesn't help there.

It is a system that would be a great boon to any hardcore-targeted game, but is an absolute disaster (for both players and devs) when utilized in a game where a huge majority of players are casuals.

It’s not. The primary reason for the gap is being able to perform the rotation. You’re going to see a substantial DPS difference between someone who mashes skills versus someone who optimally uses their skills. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by mythical.6315

[Dami.5046]

23 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

Who said anything about game progression? I'm simply pointing out one example of the wiki not providing a lot of viable information. That's only because their odd mechanic was fresh in my mind, so I looked it up for the post just to see...and I noticed the incomplete entry. I was replying to someone's post about just /wiki it.

yeah my post.

I think the wiki is the closest we will get to an 'in game guide' but honestly is tapping a few words into goggle such a chore?

[Sobx.1758]

16 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Bad at open world? people tell you to read a guide,watch a video,

Bad at raid?people tell you to read a guide,watch a video, join a discord and train,play for 100+ hours before you are able to play with them

Bad at dungeons and fractals?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video,join a discord and train or people just leave the group after saying you suck.

Bad at WvW?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video. join a discord and train.

Bad at pvp? people tell you to read a guide, watch a video, join a discord and train.

Does getting killed over and over and over again without understanding why despite reading the entire UI that you have feels good? if not, read a guide

 

Remember when arenanet posted a link to snowcrows and a lot of people on twitter bashed them or how mightyteapot say most resources are outside of the game?

Is there a need to read a guide every time a new player wants to play the game? Can't he or she learn through in game tutorial or in game guides?

 

You know, i actually just want to play the game like fortnite, LoL,new world,WoW,FFXIV,dota 2 instead of having to join discords and searching all over for an updated guide for a game where there isn't enough content on social media platforms.

There's no need to read a guide, you can figure it out by yourself. You're just not spoonfed every bit of information in the game (because then how is this any different than what you're just complaining about?). The thing is you probably don't want to figure anything out by yourself, which is why you're looking for help and subsequently get sent to the outside sources, because nobody wants to re-write guides that are already available online for every other person asking the same question.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Borked.6824 said:

You might rephrase to "modern MMO".  

Perhaps. It does make me wonder what to consider a "modern MMO". I've never played WoW or followed it much. I've never played the old-school ones people rhapsodize about like Ultima or Everquest.

It did occur to me to wonder whether our frame of reference is skewed, just because the internet is so available now and people do so much work to make wikis. Is it possible "doesn't hold your hand, you have to figure it out" is the same as "requires a wiki to play" but we are the ones who have changed, not the games. What makes me think this is that people praise recent turn based single player RPGs for not holding our hands, speaking out of some nostalgia for old school RPGs that I don't have the experience to feel myself. I know I've used the internet to look up things to play Dragon Age:Origins, D:OS1 and 2, and Shadowrun. I'm a pretty casual player, though, and I don't have time to muddle through hitting my head against a game until it falls into place, so I do research to find builds I'll enjoy and tips so I don't have to restart.

It seems like the alternative to the wiki rpg is either making the games simpler, or more explanation in game. The complexity is part of what appeals, so I'd rather they not simplify things. I'd also rather spend my time in game playing than reading extensive explanations. I can always read up on things on the wiki in little moments throughout my day.

TL;DR Is it the games, or is it that we don't really want to struggle through figuring it out, and it's so easy to search the wiki?

Edited October 4, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, and that's part of the problem, and one of the issues that make this game less popular than it could be. GW2 could use a lot more of being consistent at aiming at a specific group of players.

I mean, it is a game that is primarily played by casuals, with most of the content aimed at casuals, with some game ideas (like lack of gear progression) that casuals are definitely going to like, but with core game systems that heavily favour harcore players to the degree that is often not seen even in heavily hardcore-targetted titles. It's just a very, very bad combination to have.

Low skill floor for entry and high skill ceiling to master isn't a bad combination. It allows casuals to remain casual and at the same time gives less-casual players something to do long-term.

And as @Maikimaik.1974 said -getting a valid build shouldn't be a problem for anyone that wants it. If they're not interested in getting it in the first place, then that's hardly anything that can be blamed on the game (as by that logic any remote complexity is automatically not favoring any player not wanting to improve).

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

I can feel a kind of intergenerational divide here.
For me who started playing online games at the time when the Internet was still in its infancy, in my country, when we counted the minutes of phones and texts, when we couldn't download a game and where bookstores were almost the only source of guide solutions.

For an old player like me, it is always very surprising to come across players for whom it seems obvious, normal and expected, to have read the wiki or watch a tutorial before starting an activity in game.
The idea that it’s not normal to fail, to be bad, because you should have prepared before you started, always amazes me.

In fact, the generation that grew up with the Internet finds it normal that the first step in an activity is to learn about it on the Internet.
For me (and I suppose, some part of my generation) it is normal that the first step of an activity is failure and that we learn by the mechanics of fail and retry.

I find it more and more difficult to find that feeling ingame. Most players want to make the most of their playing time and this means getting informed upstream to be optimized.
That’s why I chose a guild with a high average age.
This is also why when I wanted to try bosses, without reading the wiki before, I always created the group by specifying in the search that it would be death & retry.

And very sincerely I advise everyone to try death & retry as much as possible, it can be very frustrating at first, but little by little, every time we succeed a little more, it's very rewarding and I do not tell you the essay that succeeds !
But yes, it will take longer than reading the wiki.

[Ashantara.8731]

While I agree that community-made content, such as guides, is super helpful in almost every game, the OP still has a point when it comes to basic stuff in GW2, not just min-maxing for the endgame/meta.

When I was still new to the game, I had to consult the Wiki and other resources about a ton of things, even simple ones at times just because the game provides no guidance nor tutorial even on many of the basics.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

17 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Remember when arenanet posted a link to snowcrows and a lot of people on twitter bashed them or how mightyteapot say most resources are outside of the game?

Is there a need to read a guide every time a new player wants to play the game? Can't he or she learn through in game tutorial or in game guides?

 

You know, i actually just want to play the game like fortnite, LoL,new world,WoW,FFXIV,dota 2 instead of having to join discords and searching all over for an updated guide for a game where there isn't enough content on social media platforms.

As someone who has created content guides for other games, what is wrong with the community expanding the knowledge base beyond that which the developer can offer?

What is wrong with taking multiple players in game experiences and having them distilled into a simple easy to read guide?

Regardless of how awesome the in game tutorials and guides could be, there will always be players who want more information, and there usually are other players who want to help you learn about it.  Having a Wiki that is public gives players a chance to give back and invest further into the game they enjoy.  That we have such well curated resources is an advantage GW2 has over other games.

and......outside resources are optional.  Players are at no point forced outside the game to play GW2 (unless the game crashes, thanks DX11, love you)

[Danjorus.2671]

16 hours ago, Zephire.8049 said:

Guides change as the game changes. Anet can't hardcode something in because it will be as relevant after a major change as getting a paper MMO guidebook.

Some things can and should be made clearer in-game (breakbars come to mind) but the guides people tell you to read were made as a community project and community response to something Anet cannot maintain themselves. You can get by fine in the game without guides if you are willing to listen to people but if you're looking to be at the top of any mode or be in the meta, you will have to use guides.

Which happens with every game where players want to min-max, not just GW2 or MMOs.

They can do it like dota 2 where there are tabs in game for you to post your created guides , they created a new player guide recently which helped or they could advertise guides to the game in game like saying type /commands to see a list of commands and include links to guides in there like /wiki, /snowcrows,/fractals etc

[ugrakarma.9416]

in PVE u can live without guides, i remenber i only started use them when i come to achievments hunting.

 

"medium level" pve encounters like fractals or strikes missions also.

[Danjorus.2671]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

With the exception of jumping puzzles. 

No human can possibly have made the first guide to them.

I'm not saying it was aliens but... aliens.

I had to read a guide on where to jump for jumping puzzle because some of them aren't obvious like not so secret i think. Maybe i should include them in my post as well.

[Danjorus.2671]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I will never understand this complaint ... at what point did reading the manual or some other guide become so unreasonable for learning to do anything, including playing a game?

At the point that i have to read a guide outside the game for my entertainment purposes. I am not studying for a job though.why not include links to them in game or have a tab to them like dota 2? Hearthstone and LoL also have quite comprehensive tutorials and everything else is intuitive due to good affordances

Edited October 4, 2021 by Danjorus.2671

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

It’s not. The primary reason for the gap is being able to perform the rotation. You’re going to see a substantial DPS difference between someone who mashes skills versus someone who optimally uses their skills. 

Well, yes. That's definitely part of it. It's not even just mashing skills randomly - someone knowing what the proper rotation is and trying to perform it, but doing it a little bit too slowly or messing up timing just slightly can lose as much as 50% of dps. It's to the degree that someone just autoattacking can have greater dps than someone using all of their skills (but not following the proper rota).

All of this however can be responsible for maybe one-third of the whole 10x difference between average and top players. The rest is traits, skill selection (including proper weapon selection), stat/rune/sigil selection on gear and boons that come from playing in a well-coordinated group.

And notice how the game at no point helps players in making better choices in any of those things. In example, in most other games the game itself will tell you which of the gear choices you get is better. In gw2 it requires in-depth knowledge of game systems and a lot of experience (or access to third-party sources that contain those). Without those, the question which stat selection is better is nowhere close to obvious, with some options being noob traps due to reasons that are not clearly apparent.

Notice that using the system well requires of player either mechanical savvy and willingness to do a lot of experimentation to "dig in" into the game systems, or a willingness to go outside the game in order to find information about those. It also requires spending a lot of time for training to perfect the rotations. As well as repeating all those on frequent basis to keep your build current and skills sharp. Notice also, how those things are something that characterizes hardcore players, not casual ones.

Which brings us back to my original point - this system is perfectly created for hardcore players, but heavily punishing for casual ones.

It is also something that is designed to magnify the differences between different player groups to the point where designing any content for more than one group is practically impossible.

In this system, a content that is extremely hard for one player, will suddenly become very easy for someone just slightly more skilled. It also creates some massive gaps in player effectiveness that cannot be gradually increased - there's no gradual step between players that make a build for themselves on their own, based on their personal ideas and (heavily lacking) understanding of the game, and those that either do understand those systems, or are going to third sites for resources. It's a seemingly small step, with nothing in-between, but it can immediately increase your effectiveness by 3-5 times right away.

This is btw why the idea of "stepping stones to raids" is never going to work. Because people are either at the bottom, and unable to climb on even the first steps, or they can climb - but also jump up to the top stairs right away. There's next to noone that could climb to the middle of the difficulty range but not higher.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Danjorus.2671]

40 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

As someone who has created content guides for other games, what is wrong with the community expanding the knowledge base beyond that which the developer can offer?

What is wrong with taking multiple players in game experiences and having them distilled into a simple easy to read guide?

Regardless of how awesome the in game tutorials and guides could be, there will always be players who want more information, and there usually are other players who want to help you learn about it.  Having a Wiki that is public gives players a chance to give back and invest further into the game they enjoy.  That we have such well curated resources is an advantage GW2 has over other games.

and......outside resources are optional.  Players are at no point forced outside the game to play GW2 (unless the game crashes, thanks DX11, love you)

nothing is wrong with that, i am saying those things can be put in game with a tab sort of like dota 2 where there are in game community guides instead of me having to google and find out which guide is the updated or more accurate

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Just now, Danjorus.2671 said:

nothing is wrong with that, i am saying those things can be put in game with a tab sort of like dota 2 where there are in game community guides instead of me having to google and find out which guide is the updated or more accurate

 

16 minutes ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

I had to read a guide on where to jump for jumping puzzle because some of them aren't obvious like not so secret i think. Maybe i should include them in my post as well.

So you tried and failed and looked for assistance from another resource?  That seems like the right thing to do.

However, I cannot see where having info such as where to stand to execute a jumping puzzle correctly would fit into an in game guide.  Like, I can understand saying "Hey CC and Breakbar are confusing, I needed a 500 word article to understand it" is something that could be improved upon in game.  But getting in game assistance for how to solve puzzles, riddles and the like seems counter to actually playing the game.

 

[mythical.6315]

50 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

All of this however can be responsible for maybe one-third of the whole 10x difference between average and top players. The rest is traits, skill selection (including proper weapon selection), stat/rune/sigil selection on gear and boons that come from playing in a well-coordinated group.

If you believe that it’s only a third then by all means provide your evidence. 

[Golvellius.7856]

I can only speak to leveling, open world, dungeons, and fractals.  I've no experience in WvW or Raiding, but...  Getting into PVE in this game is pretty straightforward and easy.  Anyone who has played any kind of RPG understands the basics of leveling, stats, and gear and the effect they have on your experience.  Traits and skills can be a little intimidating at first, but the in game descriptions are pretty straightforward.  With just a little bit of experimentation, you can figure out how stuff fits together quite easily... 

Not to reinforce your gripe, but there are build calculators and guides out there that literally do all the work for you. Googling things like "PVE Reaper build" or "PVP Theif build" or "Greatsword Warrior" will return so much cookie cutter simplicity  complete with gear, skills, and traits to pick...with as much or as little explanation as you need.  It's not a bad thing and it's not exclusive to GW2. 

Though, even with halfway decent gear...you could pick a bunch of random traits and still face-roll most if not all of the open world stuff.  What you can't do is charge into a group of mobs flanked by an elite and spam a bunch of attacks and expect to live.  You'll have to learn how to gear, spec, and play your class...and that part is up to you to discover.  But if you're not into class discovery and customization, then this really isn't the game for you.

My $0.02 on raids and people that say "go read up on it" and such...

I only have experience with a handful of MMO's, but raiding in those games have always been very self-study/meta driven.  I don't know if ANet balances the content/learning curve around this, but from listening to my son (who has raided a lot) it sounds like the raiding community does.  I've avoided the content altogether because <insert reasons we've all danced around>, but ultimately I think there's room for improvement there to get players into raiding (group finding, difficulty levels, training, etc.) that want to do it.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Golvellius.7856