The Untamed - new ranger elite spec

[Dadnir.5038]

After seeing the showcase:

- The AI is worth than ever and the new UI don't help with that (Which somehow lead me to understand why it's named: "Untamed")

- The heal skill is terrible, I thought ANet couldn't make worse than Spellbreaker healing skill and it seem I was wrong.

- Puting ranger pet and Mechanist golem back to back was a stupid idea, the cleaving damage of the drake AA couldn't even hold a candle to the cleaving damage of the golem and it hurt deep inside to see that (especially since drake is one of our only cleaving pet and non cleaving pet don't do much more on their AA).

I'm also left with questions (because english isn't my native langage and I hadn't all my head on what was said):

- Does the "corrupted mode" also change other weapon skills or just the hammer one? (If it's just the hammer skill, that's just another elite spec that isn't thoroughly thought out in my opinion)

- Is it possible for the untamed to switch pet in combat? (If not... that's even worse than I thought)

- If the pet can be switched, I wonder if the "corrupted" skill are the same for all pets and if they share cool down?

All in all, I'm not really fond of this spec, the hammer seem to be a good PvE group content dps weapon thought.

[InspectorCaracal.2970]

5 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Does the "corrupted mode" also change other weapon skills or just the hammer one? (If it's just the hammer skill, that's just another elite spec that isn't thoroughly thought out in my opinion)

- Is it possible for the untamed to switch pet in combat? (If not... that's even worse than I thought)

- If the pet can be switched, I wonder if the "corrupted" skill are the same for all pets and if they share cool down?

To answer your questions:

- It only changes hammer. They are still considering having it change other weapons.

- Yes, you can switch pets.

- Yes, they are the same skills. I don't know about cool-downs, but we'll find out on Tuesday.

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

You should probably go back and edit all the other posts you made where you didn't mention mobility then. Just to be helpful.

Mobility is the speed and freedom with which you can move to your target and pathing is the route you take to get there. Pathing is controlled by AI. Mobility is controlled by skills, traits, runes and boons. Pretty different stuff. 

I wouldn't bother, I have seen him troll over multiple class forums now. His attitude in this thread should show you. Absolutely nobody else has ever denied that pets have a hard time hitting moving targets.

[Xukavi.4320]

I have mixed feelings regarding the Untamed honestly. I love the hammer skills and how they switch when you're unleashed. Its upsetting but understandable that they decided on not giving unleashed abilities for the other weapons. Just feels like being forced to play hammer with the spec, then again Holosmith only has sword that interacts with heat as they did say.

Pets all having the same unleashed skills is a missed opportunity imo. If anything they definitely should consider adding more unleashed pet skills based on pet type (like what they did with Slb). Unfortunately as we thought, doesn't seem like the pet AI is getting any changes. Shadowsteps on pet skills helps with the pathing issue but that's a band aid solution. Its like treating the symptoms but not the disease itself. Also unless those skills have pretty short CDs (didn't notice really) pet pathing will still be an issue once you've used all the skills. It looked to me like the pet abilities were instant now? Definitely helps a bit with making sure your pet abilities land on the target. We'll have to see how well in practice that is against moving targets as none of this helps making sure pet autos land on a moving target. Also since we seem to lose the old F1 for the pet to attack a target, how does attacking 2 different things work now? If I had my pet attack the first target and I switch to a different target does the pet change targets to mine or stay on the old target. I'd see this as a concern in PvP and WvW when going 1v2 for example.

I'd say what honestly disappoints me about the Untamed is how all the changes they're making to the pet feels like it should have been fixes to core Ranger and not a new e-spec. Having access to all the pet abilities and giving them instant cast timings or at least from the looks of it priority over any other action should have been baseline with core ranger and not a new e-spec. The bandaid solution of pets shadowstepping to target on ability use could have been a band aid for for Core Ranger pets. Its like they're saying if you want these pet fixes then you need to play the Untamed, but then since the spec heavily revolves around hammer you're at a disadvantage if you're not using hammer.

[Nova.6084]

Other weapons apart from hammer should also get the unleased version as well. 

[wolfyrik.2017]

1 hour ago, Xukavi.4320 said:

I have mixed feelings regarding the Untamed honestly. I love the hammer skills and how they switch when you're unleashed. Its upsetting but understandable that they decided on not giving unleashed abilities for the other weapons. Just feels like being forced to play hammer with the spec, then again Holosmith only has sword that interacts with heat as they did say.

Pets all having the same unleashed skills is a missed opportunity imo. If anything they definitely should consider adding more unleashed pet skills based on pet type (like what they did with Slb). Unfortunately as we thought, doesn't seem like the pet AI is getting any changes. Shadowsteps on pet skills helps with the pathing issue but that's a band aid solution. Its like treating the symptoms but not the disease itself. Also unless those skills have pretty short CDs (didn't notice really) pet pathing will still be an issue once you've used all the skills. It looked to me like the pet abilities were instant now? Definitely helps a bit with making sure your pet abilities land on the target. We'll have to see how well in practice that is against moving targets as none of this helps making sure pet autos land on a moving target. Also since we seem to lose the old F1 for the pet to attack a target, how does attacking 2 different things work now? If I had my pet attack the first target and I switch to a different target does the pet change targets to mine or stay on the old target. I'd see this as a concern in PvP and WvW when going 1v2 for example.

I'd say what honestly disappoints me about the Untamed is how all the changes they're making to the pet feels like it should have been fixes to core Ranger and not a new e-spec. Having access to all the pet abilities and giving them instant cast timings or at least from the looks of it priority over any other action should have been baseline with core ranger and not a new e-spec. The bandaid solution of pets shadowstepping to target on ability use could have been a band aid for for Core Ranger pets. Its like they're saying if you want these pet fixes then you need to play the Untamed, but then since the spec heavily revolves around hammer you're at a disadvantage if you're not using hammer.

This is soulbeast again. Fixes to problems, locked behind especs instead of integrated into the class.

[Gorem.8104]

Ranger, the pet and range class. 

And what we get? Even more GIANT projectile blocks into the game, great. Good to see so many of these new classes get the ability to remove entire specs from the game. And Warrior like hammer, which as it does CC, could mean it does 0 damage in pvp/wvw game modes. Also did not show pvp/wvw based pet stats, which are A LOT lower due to nerfs. Pets used to be so strong at gw2 launch but now they die instantly, all the time, and are utterly useless. 

This class will be utterly useless in wvw and pvp. The 10% heal though could make it interesting for pve solo content. Elite is interesting with it being a more powerful Dolyak stance, too bad the recent changes to damage reduction massively reduces its effectiveness as it doesn't stack right with protection anymore, it could have been great if not for that change. 

And now Engie's get a better pet to use. Funny that. I so wish this spec had a ton of unlockable abilities so that you could actually range with it but instead, we are still shafted on that front unless we use our single signet for it. 

Doing no damage range and this spec is utterly useless looking for wvw and pvp, they really don't like Ranger much, do they at Anet. The reason SB works so well, is we remove the pets super badness at everything after all its nerfs, and gain abilities to use that actually do something with awesome stance skills. 

The stance utilities are just so much better then the cantrips here. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[Fueki.4753]

Untamed seems to be decent, unlike what the teaser suggests. The hammer looks fun, too.

But I have not seen a trade-off anywhere.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Gorem.8104]

33 minutes ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

This is soulbeast again. Fixes to problems, locked behind especs instead of integrated into the class.

TBH, this should just be core ranger, this is not an elite spec, cause what exactly is the reason for core ranger even existing anymore? Its like "here, have your bad ai pet back after you got so used to SB fixing the problem by removing the pet, also its still terrible in any format outside of pve content". 

 

Its like a slightly better core Ranger. Nothing special about this E-spec, its just core Ranger back. 

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

33 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Ranger, the pet and range class. 

And what we get? Even more GIANT projectile blocks into the game, great. Good to see so many of these new classes get the ability to remove entire specs from the game. And Warrior like hammer, which as it does CC, could mean it does 0 damage in pvp/wvw game modes. Also did not show pvp/wvw based pet stats, which are A LOT lower due to nerfs. Pets used to be so strong at gw2 launch but now they die instantly, all the time, and are utterly useless. 

This class will be utterly useless in wvw and pvp. The 10% heal though could make it interesting for pve solo content. Elite is interesting with it being a more powerful Dolyak stance, too bad the recent changes to damage reduction massively reduces its effectiveness as it doesn't stack right with protection anymore, it could have been great if not for that change. 

And now Engie's get a better pet to use. Funny that. I so wish this spec had a ton of unlockable abilities so that you could actually range with it but instead, we are still shafted on that front unless we use our single signet for it. 

Doing no damage range and this spec is utterly useless looking for wvw and pvp, they really don't like Ranger much, do they at Anet. The reason SB works so well, is we remove the pets super badness at everything after all its nerfs, and gain abilities to use that actually do something with awesome stance skills. 

The stance utilities are just so much better then the cantrips here. 

Bro, I think  you may be over reacting with this one. I think in sPvP and WvW smol scale at least it will be good and in PvE too since really anything works and since it has a big damage modifier, it may bring Ranger up in raid DPS too, where the pet won't die. 

I always hate bringing this up too, but Ranger =/= ranged.

[anduriell.6280]

1 minute ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Bro, I think  you may be over reacting with this one. I think in sPvP and WvW smol scale at least it will be good and in PvE too since really anything works and since it has a big damage modifier, it may bring Ranger up in raid DPS too, where the pet won't die. 

I always hate bringing this up too, but Ranger =/= ranged.

You are not mistaken, Untamed may be decent in smol scale but the question is : Better than a soulbeast? Wouldn't it be another Druid but without the sustain and Ancient Seeds? So worse than Druid then? Better than core then? But core can equip a dps traitline and still keep WS/BM traitlines... Then worse than Core too? 

[Gorem.8104]

13 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

You are not mistaken, Untamed may be decent in smol scale but the question is : Better than a soulbeast? Wouldn't it be another Druid but without the sustain and Ancient Seeds? So worse than Druid then? Better than core then? But core can equip a dps traitline and still keep WS/BM traitlines... Then worse than Core too? 

 

Exactly, there is no point to be this spec. Why we'd want our terrible AI pets back and lose out on damage entirely, we'd basically be cc bots in meta squads that do no damage, one thing to remember is that CC abilities do exactly 1 damage in wvw. I doubt they'd let this hammer hit for more then 1 unless they change that update. 

When playing the closest meta build we have for squads, Immob SB, at least we can actually still deal good damage while having lots of access to Immob already. We already have a lot of that cc, and can already do good damage and it all be Range or melee with GS / x/axe.

Make this a core Ranger spec choice and give us an actual E-Spec  

Edited October 23, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[aymnad.9023]

I could go in depth about each skill and utility but I will be waiting to try it. It looks super fun to play with some nice utilities for small / medium fights. I never expected it to match slb or druid in pve. It does not bring support with healing or boons but has some things that ranger was missing and is going to make the pet management a bit harder (in a good way).

 

First to the dev / balance team : thank you for trying to change some stuff on ranger. It is going to be hard to push ranger in big fights. I can see a mix of multiple concept (physical skills, corruption skills) that are really cool (maybe 1 should have been pushed more?) and hope they will find a place.

 

To players: For WvW and PvP I think this spec is going to get a lot of hate and go through some hard balance times where it is not going to be seen anywhere. I can already foresee people not mentioning the extra damage taken or that you deal less damage, that now the ranger has to time everything while they keep saying “uh no skill spec”.   I just fear it will get a soulbeast treatment the moment people will freak out (and they already do without seeing it).

Edited October 23, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

 

19 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

You are not mistaken, Untamed may be decent in smol scale but the question is : Better than a soulbeast? Wouldn't it be another Druid but without the sustain and Ancient Seeds? So worse than Druid then? Better than core then? But core can equip a dps traitline and still keep WS/BM traitlines... Then worse than Core too? 

Yeah, I think it will be better than SB because of the hard CC. You can have a smoky and control its KD, plus two shadow steps (or Cheetah), plus hard/soft CC on the hammer, plus there are some very interesting trait interactions by comparison to SB which is pretty bland. Some of the interactions, depending on how the pet skills are classified, will open up core traits to new play styles. If you are running small scale, you probably don't need a huge amount of sustain so I think it's better than Druid for that since there is no resource to build and I think it's better than core because you have the ability to micro pet skills, shadowstep them, combos and also remove or corrupt boons and another AoE poison application. If  Venomous Outburst skill is not considered a Beast skill, then Go For The Eyes is now viable, combined with Blinding Outburst, meaning we have two skills that blind in an AoE on short CDs which is very powerful if you're playing around it. 

And my god, if you love LB and I think that as Rangers we all love that thing, along with the other possible interactions, just imagine Fervent Force combined with Read the Wind, Quick Draw and Point Blank Shot. That is going to be insanely good. It's an instant recharge on PBS if it hits and Rapid Fire will recharge in 4s. You can also trait for PBS to give you quickness for 3s every time. Then you can combine it with Sigils of Frenzy and just run double LB for laughs and A-10 levels of brrrrrrrrrr.

If you want to play pure LB Ranger, Untamed is the best LB buff to ever happen. 

I think that with the buffs to cele gear and Untamed, a dual bow, both LB and SB is now viable for the first time ever. Well, just for laughs anyway. I'm having a play around on the build editor as we speak. Untamed 2-1-1.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I wouldn't bother, I have seen him troll over multiple class forums now. His attitude in this thread should show you. Absolutely nobody else has ever denied that pets have a hard time hitting moving targets.

I am ALSO not denying pets have a hard time hitting moving targets. I'm saying we can't conclude it's a problem on this espec until it's played and certainly can't be concluded from watching a 20 second video.

 See, the problem here isn't my attitude ... but the reading comprehension around here that needs to go up a few notches.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

22 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I am ALSO not denying pets have a hard time hitting moving targets. I'm saying we can't conclude it's a problem on this espec until it's played.  See, the problem here isn't my attitude ... but the reading comprehension around here that needs to go up a few notches.

 

Using ad hominem means it is your attitude. 

If you're not denying pets have a hard time hitting moving targets, what have you seen in this eSpec that may correct that? Nothing. Ergo, it still has the same problems. If there was some ground breaking news about pet pathing (not mobility) being improved, they would have shown it against moving targets. Now, we did see a gap closer on a 10s CD while the pet is unleashed, but otherwise there is nothing else in the spec to suggest it is improved over core.

I would stake a lot of money that they will not improve the pathing. If they did, they would have to adjust everything else about pets because they'd do far more damage in sPvP and WvW. It's a lot of work. I might be wrong, but I very much doubt it.

Anyway, I think at this point you are just arguing semantics, trying to hang onto this tiny little point - fence sitting - which you think will allow you to claim victory no matter what happens after the beta.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

If you're not denying pets have a hard time hitting moving targets, what have you seen in this eSpec that may correct that?

I'm not denying OR confirming it ... it needs to be PLAYED. It's not an ad hominem if it's TRUE> 🤷‍♂️

These aren't semantics ... you can't conclude ANYTHING about the spec without PLAYING it. Remember, we are talking about people in this thread who think they can already write off the whole class just because it has pets.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not denying OR confirming it ... it needs to be PLAYED. 

These aren't semantics ... you can't conclude ANYTHING about the spec without PLAYING it. 

🙄

[Krispera.5087]

As many said already, this spec seems to be WvW and PvP focused, but the pets will die in seconds in WvW fights. They need to put some protection over the pets for that one reason. Make it a Untamed unique thing if anything.

 

They need to make all the skills disabled AND movement-impaired foes (Not Fervent Force) so it can take advantage of Predator's Onslaught. If it's not changed, I don't see the Untamed ever be necessary in sPvE for DPS. Maybe, make it a PvE only specification ? 

 

I don't get why we would get reduced damage with Vow of the Untamed, just so unnecessary. It's too high penalty for the player and too low buff for the pet. 

 

It would be nice they change skills on other weapons while Unleashed, but I guess their devs are spreaded thin. 

 

For a spec more focused on the pet, the Hammer doesn't even have a buffing skill for the pet. 

 

Stuck being on Soulbeast for another 2-3 years. Yay. I'm legit hoping the new pets gonna bring a fresh air to Soulbeast, that's how low my expectations are. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Krispera.5087

[VocalThought.9835]

After watching the live stream, I think to fit in with the theme, the best thing they should have the Untamed Minor Adapt trait do is Increase the Power and reduce the cool down and condition damage of all weapons skills when the player is unleashed.  I think this would make players feel the benefit of being unleashed with other weapons than the Hammer.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I'm just glad he got some boon hate. I hope he'll get more of it than just one skill though.

[Levetty.1279]

I'm trying to hold off forming opinions till we can actually test but...well the pet classes pet focused elite spec doesn't even buff the pet in any significant way *glances over at mechanist*

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

Yah, I understand that complaint. Though I also understand why. Even just using the archetypes that'd be 15 new skills on top of the hammer's 10 new skills and the utilities to design. And while they aren't NEW having direct control of the old pet skills does add more toys to play with for each pet species all the same.

 

Plus this way does have an advantage in that you don't need to weigh the effectiveness of two different sets of pet skills per pet choice. You also don't need to worry about situations like the fire wyvern being a Deadly pet and getting condi skills even though its main toolkit is chiefly power oriented. Or marsh drake getting support skills even though nothing about its main skillset is meant for support. Or whole archetypes being less appealing because their abilities aren't useful.

Pretty much this. I've found that soulbeasts can be pretty limiting in terms of what pets you can use because you need to find a pet where both the archetype and the pet skills actually fit your build. So many pets, especially from the larger families, are mismatched.

 

A bit of difference between Unleashed skills for different pets certainly could possibly be good to see, but I'd rather it didn't result in a significant subset of pets being rendered nonviable due to not fitting with the elite spec mechanic.

 

It probably is a solvable problem, since there still wouldn't be as many things that need to line up as soulbeast - Untamed doesn't need to worry about the pet being aligned with the ranger's own statistics, for instance. But I do get the impression that the Unleashed skills when the pet is active do draw from the ranger's stats, so modifying them too much might result in there being some Unleashed skills that are better than others for most Untamed builds, narrowing the field of which pets are practical. Hammer, for instance, seems to be pretty much pure power damage, so distinct Unleashed pet skills could lead to pets with power-based Unleashed skills becoming significantly more viable than others.

[anduriell.6280]

Double post

Edited October 25, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[anduriell.6280]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:03 AM, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

This is a glaring issue. You can't call it back. It's unleashed, lol.

I can live with having no access to pet skill 1 to get the leash back because pet skill 1 is rubbish anyway.

Gotcha!

I was thinking about a solution to this problem, the inability to blink back the pet. What about F1 allows to target friendlies also, so if you need your pet back you can cast the f1 with yourself selected as target or using the hotkey to target closer ally.

For some pets like moas healing screech would be good to allow to use the Fs over Allie’s instead enemies.

This would be good too to be able to cast the unleashed F3 on friendlies location instead enemies….As we can’t ask the pet to move to specific locations.

Edited October 25, 2021 by anduriell.6280