Ideas to Disincentivize Pip Farming Without Disincentivizing Repair

[Stand The Wall.6987]

there will always be incentive to repair walls. cuz they're walls, they block stuff.

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

there will always be incentive to repair walls. cuz they're walls, they block stuff.

^This^
 

If your incentive to repair walls is anything else…,  Then the game likely isn’t for you.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

^This^
 

If your incentive to repair walls is anything else…,  Then the game likely isn’t for you.

Tell that to the zergs that leave walls open.

[Sviel.7493]

If nothing else, this thread has really made clear just how unappreciated time spent repairing already is.  Beyond just being taken for granted, people don't seem to realize what would happen without repairs.

It may just be a cultural issue with the EBG crowd.  Objective maintenance is fairly pointless on that map since afk trebs can hit most everything, so I don't imagine people that play there have the same mindset of wanting everything fully repaired at all times.  Full repairs are also less important as defense is less about stalling for reinforcements and more about having a larger zerg.  It seems that's also the map where the problematic behavior occurs, so EBG players seem to be predisposed to view this in a very different light.

[Strider Pj.2193]

17 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Tell that to the zergs that leave walls open.

If the Zerg that came to save a structure doesn’t want to keep it, then I move on to a different area of the map.  

[Luthan.5236]

Actually: How does the "afk" siege participation work at the moment? Don't even now this. I rarely use siege. I don't think you can just sit there afk without doing something?

Last time I noticed you either need to damage an enemy player - and if others manage to kill it you get kill credit - which is good and normal and should stay like this. Then the thing for attacking structures. This could get tied to events having the need to actually wait until you can get credit from the same event type again. Similar to the defense event an attack event with longer duration that gives credit if you attacked the wall during the event timer.

I still think that siege could get used more often. And that the defensive play is importand and fun - and that you should actually use more "suddenly" placed siege to defend. (For example if you defend a tower ... more often using the 300/300 supplies to build siege even if the enemy already is in lord room - to support your team.)

Scouts and defenders need an incentive.

Ideally the restructuring of the worlds brings more balanced matchups and serious players that actually want to defend. Currently I mainly do wood tier (for +1 pips in following weeks) at reset. Then stopping to play WvW - since tons of other content in GW2 (playing all game modes, levelling other chars and doing map completin + story) and other hobbies.

Of course I regularly end up in situations where I also do "easy mode" for pips: At an enemy borderland capping + recapping the camps near the corner/spawn: Cap it, go afk a few mins, then recap it (other will capture it again after 5 mins timer and then you can recap after 5 minutes again).

Of course I use this strategy in the EBG at SM sometimes with the repairing that is still possible. Depends on how much action there is and how far you'd need to run. If the commanders always runs too far away from spawn in borderlands (no T3 upgraded other keeps with uncontested spawn) it is boring after the wipe to run a lot. Even more boring if you end up in  matchup where you greatly outnumber the enemies and own almost everything. (Then you can just cap their home keep and "repair" it while the few players they have left try to attack lol.)

EBG still offers the best experience for me. Always big zergs to fight and occassionalyl the defensive play. Still ... if the commander runs to cap stuff in enemy corner while the enemy caps stuff in our courner. Of course I might tend to just ignore everything and take the 10 minute timer refresh from recapping our tower then.

Should be more focus on upgrading. Maybe more/different rewards or other stuff for upgrading own structures. (At least the ones in the own corner.)

The rewards for the defensive play could be tied to the type and tier of the structure - T3 stonemist giving a lot).

Edited October 23, 2021 by Luthan.5236

[Gorem.8104]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'll reiterate what I said somewhere in my linked thread above.

 

There have been times where I've been the only one repairing inner and outer of Garri after a defense as everybody else ran off. That takes a while. Without participation for repairing that would result in my participation starting to decay or already decaying before I finish and run off to tag a player/objective/guard. This is still active gameplay. This is a war mode, there is more than just PvP to it, and that includes maintaining objectives.

I'd rather keep my participation  up if I had the choice, and I'm sure a lot of players feel  the same considering how rough the reward structure is in this mode. So, if they start removing participation from things like repairing walls, you're going to start seeing objectives flip a lot more, and ktraining will become a thing again.

 

Exactly, all this change does, all it does, is punish active players who actually want to defend objectives. That's it. SMC will still have its supply spent on wall repair as people inside will still get 10 minutes, which means it will have 0 effect on afk people. 

Its literally just punishing people for sticking around to repair walls. If you defend something solo? You are basically punished with no rewards from the least rewarding game system in game. 

New way to attack something, break the wall, leave for 5-10minutes, break a nearly broken wall in seconds and grab the tower before its even CT'd. What Anet is telling us with this change is they want K-training to be a thing, they want everyone to blob as it will be the only reliable way in game when "actively" playing to get participation. 

[Sviel.7493]

Perhaps we just need more information on what they're hoping to accomplish with this change.

Initially, I had no clue what they were trying to do.  Later, it seemed like they were targeting afk repairmen in SM.  But as Gorem pointed out, the SM repairmen will still get defense event credit because SM is constantly under attack by afk trebs.  In addition, there was no change participation gain from siege damage.

So there are three likely possibilities here:

1.)  They were not targeting afk participation gain as they left a more common form of it intact.

2.)  They were targeting it and will roll back the change as it does not address that problem.

3.)  They were targeting it but didn't remove participation from siege damage as they considered that a bad trade-off.

It could be some combination of those, but it's hard to say with what we know.

[Leo.3428]

I'm trying to wrap my head around how participation and grace time work; had never looked at it before.

If the change to participation gets rid of the repair bots, it will automatically get rid of the treb bots too. Wall trading is over.

If the change also gets rid of the repair roamers on the maps where nobody else repairs, the maps will be King Adelbern's Ascalon after the Searing. We are in the Mists after all 😉 But then it may make the zergs repair again, could this be the untold intended goal?

  

On 10/23/2021 at 8:10 AM, TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

Keep in mind, from how it is worded, this will do NOTHING to punish those who repair SMC every few minutes. As from the sounds of it, they are only removing the "participation grace time", that being the little bit of time you get from putting supply into something, which doesn't matter to anyone but roamers and scouts, the ones afking EBG/SMC are repairing for the defending participation for the 10min participation grace time.

Can you please elaborate? I'm not sure I understand how the math works.

[Strider Pj.2193]

2 minutes ago, Leo.3428 said:

 

  

Can you please elaborate? I'm not sure I understand how the math works.

Each time a structure is hit or a guard is aggro’d, a defense event starts that lasts about 3:00 minutes.  If you contribute to that defense (kill an attacker within the bounds, repair a wall,etc) you qualify for credit for the defense event.  
 

at the end of the timer, you get participation.  🤷

[TheGrimm.5624]

Do we really have that many people 'AFK' repairing? By terms alone are we really picturing a player macroing F while against the wall as they leave? What happens when said person is out of supply. It would be different if you didn't need supply to repair in the first place. Just not certain this is really an issue enough to further discourage players from repairing after an attack. 

[Leo.3428]

22 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Each time a structure is hit or a guard is aggro’d, a defense event starts that lasts about 3:00 minutes.  If you contribute to that defense (kill an attacker within the bounds, repair a wall,etc) you qualify for credit for the defense event.  
 

at the end of the timer, you get participation.  🤷

Thank you! So losing the grace time does not prevent the AFK "repair staff" from staying there to always be within the events and get the points whereas the roamers can't have it because they repair when they happen to be there while the participation mechanics decays on them.

[Strider Pj.2193]

53 minutes ago, Leo.3428 said:

Thank you! So losing the grace time does not prevent the AFK "repair staff" from staying there to always be within the events and get the points whereas the roamers can't have it because they repair when they happen to be there while the participation mechanics decays on them.

Well, not exactly (if I am understanding you correctly)

As long as the ‘defense event’ is active and you repair DURING it, it doesn’t matter if you roam IN the BL before the event ends.  If you LEAVE THE BORDER, before the event ends, then yes, you would lose credit.  
 

Does that make sense the way I explained it?  Because I am not so sure it does lol…

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:05 PM, Sviel.7493 said:

Perhaps we just need more information on what they're hoping to accomplish with this change.

Initially, I had no clue what they were trying to do.  Later, it seemed like they were targeting afk repairmen in SM.  But as Gorem pointed out, the SM repairmen will still get defense event credit because SM is constantly under attack by afk trebs.  In addition, there was no change participation gain from siege damage.

So there are three likely possibilities here:

1.)  They were not targeting afk participation gain as they left a more common form of it intact.

2.)  They were targeting it and will roll back the change as it does not address that problem.

3.)  They were targeting it but didn't remove participation from siege damage as they considered that a bad trade-off.

It could be some combination of those, but it's hard to say with what we know.

As long as the defense event repair works, I really don't mind. I've never repaired a wall outside of it just for the phat lootz. (well, thin loots)

Typically we usually have to take back the nearby camp as the enemy probably took it to attack us in the first place, and then the sentry will come up, so there's little trouble. Worse comes to worst, escort the yaks.

It's just annoying vs the hit and run kinds though that are hoping you log off so they can take your keep.

Maybe ressing dead guards should count for partcipation? Dunno. Currently I don't think you get anything for doing that.

Edited October 27, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Leo.3428]

22 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Well, not exactly (if I am understanding you correctly)

As long as the ‘defense event’ is active and you repair DURING it, it doesn’t matter if you roam IN the BL before the event ends.  If you LEAVE THE BORDER, before the event ends, then yes, you would lose credit.  
 

Does that make sense the way I explained it?  Because I am not so sure it does lol…

Yes, it does make sense, thanks! I'll keep an eye on these numbers; I never did in the past.

[Coldtart.4785]

How about making it so that more of the wvw exclusive items can be sold to other players? That way wvwers get more g and people that don't want to play wvw don't come in and afk pip farm.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I guess this is what they had in mind when they said we're going to take care of the roamers with alliances.

 

But seriously, you do realize there are entire guilds dedicated to defense that currently switch maps to defend objectives.  You honestly think whole squads are going to keep doing that if staying where they're at is more profitable?

 

AFK farmers are no fun, but this change isn't going to affect them so much as it punishes everyone else.

[Excursion.9752]

I can just hear it in discord now..
Commander says "Don't repair! We do not get participation for that!" 
There are only a few times I have ever heard of a  Commander not wanting something shut, either when we were farming bags or if it's the outer wall of a T0 SMC.

I've always thought it was pretty lame that people could get legendary armor without what I consider really participating in WvW as long as they had enough patience to endure that boredom. I actually know a guy that this change will directly effect. He used to watch Netflix and repair walls to gain pips for armor...

I'm almost certain this is aimed at getting pip farmers out of WvW clogging up the queues.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

They made fun of the people that voiced concerns about the last defense nerf too, that'll never happen they said.  Month by month, year by year the scouts grow fewer and the zergs grow bigger.  Sure, a commander would never say don't repair, but that's assuming there's someone there in the first place to tell the commander it will be needing repairs.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

People actually “farm” pips???

[Gorem.8104]

8 hours ago, Excursion.9752 said:

I can just hear it in discord now..
Commander says "Don't repair! We do not get participation for that!" 
There are only a few times I have ever heard of a  Commander not wanting something shut, either when we were farming bags or if it's the outer wall of a T0 SMC.

I've always thought it was pretty lame that people could get legendary armor without what I consider really participating in WvW as long as they had enough patience to endure that boredom. I actually know a guy that this change will directly effect. He used to watch Netflix and repair walls to gain pips for armor...

I'm almost certain this is aimed at getting pip farmers out of WvW clogging up the queues.

 

Only has been discussed, if they were doing it in say, SMC, you don't actually need the 5min timer, because you constantly have the 10min timer for defence in effect. So this will do 0% to the people who afk in constantly attacked keeps/towers. 

Someone afk trebbing Duri? Hit repair every 10 minutes and you are good. This change only actually punishes active players. 

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:48 PM, Terrier.8732 said:

Or, like back in the day, commanders who come to defend a structure could stay for 1 minute and get the zerg to repair before moving on. The unrepaired wall issue is a player issue that allows afk'ers to exploit it.

Yet, they aren't planning on removing the participation for the auto treb guy who is AFK all day trebbing the towers from SMC.  It's two sides of the same coin.  If they remove the timer reset period from repairing, then they need to remove the timer reset period for doing siege damage.

 

This change has nothing to do with "unintended gameplay" and everything to do with the fact Anet does not want people defending...at all.  Every change, every nerf, favors the ktrain blobs.

 

They should just add a commander option that says if you have more than 25 people on tag, or outnumber your defenders by more than 20 (which is almost every zerg), you can just walk through walls because why waste that many people's time or siege.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Ubi.4136

[MedievalThings.5417]

18 hours ago, Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:

People actually “farm” pips???

The only time I see people doing this, they are yak escorting, 20 hours a week, every week.  At least it's a useful pasttime.

[Xenesis.6389]

21 minutes ago, Ubi.4136 said:

They should just add a commander option that says if you have more than 25 people on tag, or outnumber your defenders by more than 20 (which is almost every zerg), you can just walk through walls because why waste that many people's time or siege.

 

You know, after the last three weeks of having to deal with a kitten ktrain boon blobs every night, I'm coming to terms on how much wvw has turned to kitten with these groups, and agreement with any whacky conditions to add to them. The only problem with this suggestion is they'll still just sit in the lords room farming pugs, cause that's really what they're after, farming easy players who can't touch them.

[MedievalThings.5417]

6 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

You know, after the last three weeks of having to deal with a kitten ktrain boon blobs every night, I'm coming to terms on how much wvw has turned to kitten with these groups, and agreement with any whacky conditions to add to them. The only problem with this suggestion is they'll still just sit in the lords room farming pugs, cause that's really what they're after, farming easy players who can't touch them.

I suggested they just remove player drops as a solution in another thread, but, as the blobs farming outnumbered servers is Anet's idea of fun in wvw, they will likely just increase drops the larger the number advantage the blob has.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Ubi.4136