Removed the WvW participation grace time granted from repairing

[Shroud.2307]

15 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Wow, that's nearly 10x what I've repaired. (I'm like 1600 for rank or something).

Lmao, well tbf I also did a lot of scouting and defense when I first started WvW, back when it was it's own mini game. Walking yaks, upgrading camps and objectives, building and refreshing siege, counter pushing enemy camps, etc. And I still do a lot of that, I'm just less restricted to the objective(s) I'm babysitting, so I can do more roaming than defending. But I always repair things back to 100% if it makes sense to do so (eg. objective not being attacked, not being harassed, lots of supplies, etc.), and often times I'm the only one to do so. So I've gotten pretty high in ranks in that category.
 

Quote

I don't really get the problems myself. Like you said, if you want loot, pve has tons. But it's more like "what's being lost". And my estimation is about a few greens and a yellow if you're really slow or somehow can't play the game at all.

I see people worrying about dropping below level 6, but you earn the same pips at level 3 anyways. I often drop down to level 3-4 when talking with a friend and forgetting I'm logged on. I may be like "oh no" but in reality the game's been rewarding for doing nothing already. It really doesn't matter. This whole "must follow a zerg" thing is absurd. In a worst case scenario if you're truly unable to kill a guard for some reason you might join a tag or a bigger group for all of 15 minutes. Big friggen deal. And you need to "join a zerg" to defend properly against a large attacking force anyways. It's World vs World kitten.  You can't just pick and choose these things.

Agreed, and exactly.
I totally understand the necessity for rewards. ANet has stated that they want players to be able to get what they need from their preferred area of the game without needing to do any, or very little, in other areas of the game. So of course rewards are important, and Pips are a part of that progression.

But people talk about this particular change like the only reason they do anything in WvW AT ALL is for the rewards. And I think it's pretty common knowledge by now that WvW isn't the place to be doing that. If someone wants to be showered in loot, PvE is the place to go, especially meta maps.
The part that strikes me though is how selfish people are about this. Are there really that many people that don't care about helping each other and being a part of the team? It's kind of eye-opening because I've always done a lot of the things I do with my server's best interest in mind. I don't care if I don't get loot or Pips for something, I do it for the sake of participating - not for participation.
Granted, I also don't care about winning or losing. It's more of a, I enjoy what I'm doing and I enjoy it more because it's contributing.
 

Quote

Honestly, people really wanted to keep their pips going, they could just go around in a golem. As long as you have mastery, it doesn't even matter how bad your build is, since you can just crash safely away. And contesting things with them can actually be useful, especially if you build more than 1.

But keeping up partcipation? Really? This is the type of stuff we give new players a pass for. For not new players, it's really not our fault if people don't understand how the game works.

Gold is so easy to get in this game. It is irrational to see gameplay as some kind of bizarre opportunity cost where some actions are valued in terms of shiny. Regardless of your content, as long you have some degree of good timing with TP sales, the gold is always there. Like every time some new content comes out and some random thing gets expensive. Just unload and get gold without doing most of the pve anyways. The game also hands you crap just for logging in.

 

Sometimes I just run around in Open World or cities just because I can. Am I worried about "but that doesn't earn me oodles of gold? Why am I doing this?" No, it's a game.

You repair because you don't like your enemy getting free things and want to kill them. That is all.

Oh, WvW rewards are still crap though.

Funny you say that because trying to solo or open things with Golems is something I do a lot, lol. Particularly when it's low activity I'll just build an Omega and see what I can get away with. Usually I go for towers without Watch Tower, see if I can open it or how many defenders it summons, and let the map know what's happening.
But I'm also aware that a lot of people don't have that initiative, and that's fine. I just think if you want some action, you can make it happen.

Anyway though, I'm just particularly frustrated with this issue because so many of these people deliberately cause problems under the guise of "but I'm just a solo player! How else will I get my loot?!" and they don't realize that what they're saying is exactly the reason this change was made.

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I don't have issues with participation. I don't even need tickets anymore they are useless after you get all three sets of Leg armor. But your own statement proves out what some of us are trying to express. You won't repair if you are alone, why not? Why would you want to lose something that yourside has ranked up? You see that argument goes both ways. Why did you give up a T3 keep for a T0 camp? Many zergs that react to a call out will move off today because they know that others will stop & repair.

 

It's not that they didn't want it kept, they came to defend but their trade off is they will move out while the scouts and roamers do the tedious bit to make sure it can hold out long enough for another attack and shout-out. Again you are assuming this about rewards but for some of us it's we don't like seeing our stuff fall and this just encourages more flipping. Nothing is more discouraging to defenders than to see something lost after they spent time building it up. 

 

For whatever previous change made you stop repairing if you are by yourself, the more changes like these discourage even more people from doing things like repairing. More changes like this impact more and more people who will just see a repair as a waste and then we get more people that are back to, just let them take it and we will take it back when they are gone.

 

That's the mindset that made most of the people I know leave this game. The long term concern here is the encouragement to attack over the encouragement to defend. The more out of balance they are the less fights we get. Unless you are here to just say you want the mode to be just full on k-train, which I am assume you are out there to fight then that's part of the issue. It's not about people standing in towers, if you think that's what most of the repliers do, I think you should think again and stop assuming. It's about more and more changes that tell defenders to stop defending. 

Oh but I do still repair, and I still make call outs and 9 out of 10 times you will see people come by to help, and this is something I've been doing for years not because of this change, you shouldn't feel obligated to repair the entire wall or gate by yourself. Now, will some of those people not bother with that now that they can't earn participation? sure I guess, it's why we have this thread. You say it isn't about rewards, but if people are not going to repair anymore because of this minor change, was it really not about the rewards for them?

I don't look at my bar every time I bother repairing a wall, calculating how much participation I would lose from taking the time to repair, I mean how tedious would that be? If this is a problem for people that think they lose so much from repair participation, then they didn't bother to top it off with other activities in the first place, and maybe now this will make them think about the other activities on the map, even as simple as taking camps. Those players who think repairing is the biggest chunk of participation for them, need to adapt and change their mindset, there's plenty of stuff to do to maintain participation.

Heck I even check for enemy siege after recapping something if we didn't kill any before break in, there's plenty of times when I'm the only one that does this, so yeah I also care about not losing something easily. Just yesterday we had a big break in on water gate garrison, after the fight the zerg went off to try and recap another keep, but the outer gate was wide open still, I went down and killed the rams, put in my 20 supply and made the call out for repair, few minutes later when I checked it was 100%. And map calls were still going out to take camps and get supply to garri.

Yes there are commanders(mostly "fite" ones) that tend to not bother because they know scouts will do the tedious work for them, but maybe with this change they will take it upon themselves to start making more repairs with their zerg, if they want to keep the objective that is, but there were many commanders who cared or didn't care before this change, don't know if this will motivate them anyways. But make the map calls, there are still plenty of people who do care.

I'll say it again, maybe argue for better time extensions on the other activities? Do you think capping a ruin or shrine, killing a guard, killing a sentry, killing a lord, killing a veteran creature, all giving 10 mins would be a better change for those scouts? so they have extra time to do the other non participation stuff like repair, sieging, building siege(even as useless as it is today)?

For you, this participation change was the most important day of your wvw life. But for me.. it was Tuesday.

My last post on this topic, good luck on the crusade.

P.S I was shocked to see a commander actually offer participation sharing spot in their squad with a scout yesterday. Props to TC community.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Xenesis.6389

[Gorem.8104]

7 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Wow, that's nearly 10x what I've repaired. (I'm like 1600 for rank or something).

I don't really get the problems myself. Like you said, if you want loot, pve has tons. But it's more like "what's being lost". And my estimation is about a few greens and a yellow if you're really slow or somehow can't play the game at all.

I see people worrying about dropping below level 6, but you earn the same pips at level 3 anyways. I often drop down to level 3-4 when talking with a friend and forgetting I'm logged on. I may be like "oh no" but in reality the game's been rewarding for doing nothing already. It really doesn't matter. This whole "must follow a zerg" thing is absurd. In a worst case scenario if you're truly unable to kill a guard for some reason you might join a tag or a bigger group for all of 15 minutes. Big friggen deal. And you need to "join a zerg" to defend properly against a large attacking force anyways. It's World vs World kitten.  You can't just pick and choose these things.

Honestly, people really wanted to keep their pips going, they could just go around in a golem. As long as you have mastery, it doesn't even matter how bad your build is, since you can just crash safely away. And contesting things with them can actually be useful, especially if you build more than 1.

But keeping up partcipation? Really? This is the type of stuff we give new players a pass for. For not new players, it's really not our fault if people don't understand how the game works.

Gold is so easy to get in this game. It is irrational to see gameplay as some kind of bizarre opportunity cost where some actions are valued in terms of shiny. Regardless of your content, as long you have some degree of good timing with TP sales, the gold is always there. Like every time some new content comes out and some random thing gets expensive. Just unload and get gold without doing most of the pve anyways. The game also hands you crap just for logging in.

 

Sometimes I just run around in Open World or cities just because I can. Am I worried about "but that doesn't earn me oodles of gold? Why am I doing this?" No, it's a game.

You repair because you don't like your enemy getting free things and want to kill them. That is all.

Oh, WvW rewards are still crap though.

Well yeah, that was the first words before we even found out about the other inconsistences and 2second grace time on siege not even dimishing returns like they said, wvw rewards suck, and they made bad rewards, harder to get for no reason other then "to combat afk'ers" which it doesn't even accomplish. I'm still so glad I was able to defend a tower from t1 to t3 solo for hours pre-patch, had a lot of fun getting to the diamond chest while I spent hours defending waves of enemies before this patch came that would have made me have to leave the tower every ten minutes which would have resulted in losing it. wvw was so fun before the patch that didn't buff rewards but made bad rewards harder to get. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

For you, this participation change was the most important day of your wvw life. But for me.. it was Tuesday.

My last post on this topic, good luck on the crusade.

 

 

Not really but hey, read what you would like into it. No, my 'crusade', a little melo-dramatic there I think, is to point out I don't want to see WvW get more and more reduced to K-Trains R us. It look a long time for the older dev teams to add more meaning into defending versus just attacking but the current leads seems to be going backwards, at least to people that like to both attack and defend. Attacking remains a much easier role than trying to hold things.

[Chaba.5410]

15 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Not really but hey, read what you would like into it. No, my 'crusade', a little melo-dramatic there I think, is to point out I don't want to see WvW get more and more reduced to K-Trains R us. It look a long time for the older dev teams to add more meaning into defending versus just attacking but the current leads seems to be going backwards, at least to people that like to both attack and defend. Attacking remains a much easier role than trying to hold things.

Remember they had to nerf yak escorting not long after launch because of all the zergs of bots escorting yaks for the karma?  Nerfing participation with wall repair is something like that.  So how do they reward active gameplay without providing unintended rewards for the afkers?  I don't want to see a reduction to K-trains, but I also don't want to see queued maps filled with bots and afkers doing the bare minimum for rewards.  And let's be honest about the difference between active defense where you're fighting against people attacking your structure and just hanging around.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Remember they had to nerf yak escorting not long after launch because of all the zergs of bots escorting yaks for the karma?  Nerfing participation with wall repair is something like that.  So how do they reward active gameplay without providing unintended rewards for the afkers?  I don't want to see a reduction to K-trains, but I also don't want to see queued maps filled with bots and afkers doing the bare minimum for rewards.  And let's be honest about the difference between active defense where you're fighting against people attacking your structure and just hanging around.

 

Botting is a different tale all together. No, not looking for more bots. I admit, I have never seen an AFK wall repairer nor a wall bot. Or at least I am not aware of. If others have, please let me know and maybe its not a thing on my server or those its been linked too.  Is this an AFK thing or people loitering on EBG and SMC thing? I can't speak to other servers, but most of the defenses I am at people are attacking the attackers while others are reinforcing walls, I need both sets doing their thing else we lose the wall. If the ones attacking fail to clear the siege it might be up to the peep repairing to slow the other side while more people show up. How is letting people thru the wall more active then stopping them from breaching? There is also a difference here in talking about people patching while an attack versus doing so after the after is over. But I say again, what helped a side more, the side that ran off to take that T0 camp or the few that stayed to repair a T3 keep? We keep talking about these AFK repair peeps, where are they SMC? Code rules for SMC then. Also I bring these up outside of just the repair issue, what else was hit? Testing in the borderland I see other defense activities were also impacted. As an active roamer I didn't see this since I mix defense and offense but after looking seeing other activities are also considered non active and seeing others post made me question. So can we not get full patch notes?  

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Well yeah, that was the first words before we even found out about the other inconsistences and 2second grace time on siege not even dimishing returns like they said, wvw rewards suck, and they made bad rewards, harder to get for no reason other then "to combat afk'ers" which it doesn't even accomplish. I'm still so glad I was able to defend a tower from t1 to t3 solo for hours pre-patch, had a lot of fun getting to the diamond chest while I spent hours defending waves of enemies before this patch came that would have made me have to leave the tower every ten minutes which would have resulted in losing it. wvw was so fun before the patch that didn't buff rewards but made bad rewards harder to get. 

I mean there are obvious inconsistencies that should be fixed, like defense event giving the proper credit, but that has little to do with intention. Siege timer is flawed.

And the extra pip or whatever does matter. (currently Mithril 5) though what they really need to do is compress the reward track to like 25 steps instead of 40 and just give more rewards in each individual section instead of sieging me with a bunch of useless boxes.

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Kasumi.8532]

The people saying scouts shouldn't be rewarded are probably also the first ones that start complaining in chat when no one's giving info on status of garrison when it's under attack or when something falls without any callouts whatsoever.

Since zerging or blobbing is apparently all Anet wants nowadays, they should just make a flat terrain and let the zergs hug each other until one of them wipes, rinse and repeat. Though I have to admit it's also kinda funny seeing blobs stack for so long at a door or gate that the objective falls in the meantime, and then wipe anyway.

 

[Gorem.8104]

On 11/30/2021 at 12:45 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

Remember they had to nerf yak escorting not long after launch because of all the zergs of bots escorting yaks for the karma?  Nerfing participation with wall repair is something like that.  So how do they reward active gameplay without providing unintended rewards for the afkers?  I don't want to see a reduction to K-trains, but I also don't want to see queued maps filled with bots and afkers doing the bare minimum for rewards.  And let's be honest about the difference between active defense where you're fighting against people attacking your structure and just hanging around.

 

Do you even play wvw? Cause you type like you've never actually stepped into wvw before. Just how many people do you see afking at walls? oh wait that number is 0 if you actually play unless they are repairing the wall to save the thing from being taken. if you defend an objective outside of EBG, The ONLY WAY to get participation, is to get kills. That is it. The defence tick does not give grace, and wall repair now does not give grace. Actively playing wvw now does not give grace unless you play a certain way. Which is not what GW2 is about. Actually go play some wvw before posting. 

[Chaba.5410]

8 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Do you even play wvw? Cause you type like you've never actually stepped into wvw before. Just how many people do you see afking at walls? oh wait that number is 0 if you actually play unless they are repairing the wall to save the thing from being taken. if you defend an objective outside of EBG, The ONLY WAY to get participation, is to get kills. That is it. The defence tick does not give grace, and wall repair now does not give grace. Actively playing wvw now does not give grace unless you play a certain way. Which is not what GW2 is about. Actually go play some wvw before posting. 

LOL! What a question!  You type like you are reaching for straws whenever anyone reports how their experience is contrary to your own experience.  Get out of here with that nonsense and go get some kills.

Edit: So you're saying you never played WvW before yaks were nerfed?

Edited December 1, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[Xenesis.6389]

Imagine asking a veteran like Chaba if they even play wvw.....

[ArchonWing.9480]

AFK often depends on how high activity is in general.

Killing things... is the norm in this game lol.

[Gorem.8104]

6 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Imagine asking a veteran like Chaba if they even play wvw.....

If you act like you don't wvw and make up things that don't exist and don't happen, you get treated as such. This patch objectively makes wvw worse, there's no discussion there. They took things away from grace period and did not add anything back. it's only gone factually one way. And its only hurt active players. 

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

If you act like you don't wvw and make up things that don't exist and don't happen, you get treated as such. This patch objectively makes wvw worse, there's no discussion there. They took things away from grace period and did not add anything back. it's only gone factually one way. And its only hurt active players. 

Nah.  It isn't about whether someone plays WvW or not or whether there's a belief that something is made up because it's outside of one's realm of experience or not.  It's about having an opinion on something and doubling down on it no matter what anyone writes.

I was trying to engage in constructive conversation by asking you: "So how do they reward active gameplay without providing unintended rewards for the afkers?"  It's unfortunate that you don't have an answer.  If you're running around all the time playing actively, it's not so easy to notice the people who just hang out and do the bare minimum to keep their participation up.  I've done it myself sometimes, including the one where you put a treb in SMC and sit on it for hours hitting an enemy tower with something wedged in the keyboard so it continues to fire.

Whatever did you think I meant by "active defense where you're fighting against people attacking"?  If you're not getting credit for kills while defending, you're not actively defending or you don't really have enough defenders which means the structure is a loss anyway.  At that point why are you even bothering?  It's a team game.  It's a team failure.

Is it really difficult to conceive that the problem with minimal play for participation is a lot more widespread than what you have personally encountered?  If you're wondering why Anet made the change, have you considered it is because they have full access to all the data and statistics that show them the problem is one that needs addressing?  I mean, I don't know either, but I trust that the change is for a valid reason and that reason must be because there's a problem with it.

You state that this patch makes WvW objectively worse yet by what measurement can you state that?  None.  There's nothing objective at all about what you've written because of zero access to the statistics!   So maybe instead of accusing people of making something up or not really playing WvW, offer something constructive.  Just reverting the change doesn't address the identified problem so that's a non-starter.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

8 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

AFK often depends on how high activity is in general.

Killing things... is the norm in this game lol.

I wouldn't be surprised if they look at kills+deaths and objective changes in relation to the number of players in WvW and participation levels to determine how much WvW activity is actually taking place.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they look at kills+deaths and objective changes in relation to the number of players in WvW and participation levels to determine how much WvW activity is actually taking place.

Ultimately speaking, if nobody is attacking, then nobody can defend. This is why there needs to be incentive to take the offense. A game that allows camping isn't really much of a game, because when camping is allowed.... people camp. So rewards need to reward offense, or else nothing happens.

As an extreme example, if all everyone did were repair walls, then nothing would be accomplished. You wouldn't even be able to repair walls because nobody was attacking!

But anyhow, there's definitely a lot of bashing about "karma trains" and stuff, but even the lamest of trains gives everyone something to do either offensively or defensively and requires a bit of effort to run.

As to prove a point, today I spent like 20 minutes repairing NE tower and fire keep, while repelling attackers. On a beta character, so there were no rewards anyways. Participation did not dip below level 6 once established. Now in all fairness, I only defended because someone requested and I didn't feel they should be alone xD.

Though this is also why I oppose the siege timer changes. Opening up objectives generates action1, but it's also a highly undesirable activity.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I was trying to engage in constructive conversation by asking you: "So how do they reward active gameplay without providing unintended rewards for the afkers?" 

 

If you're wondering why Anet made the change, have you considered it is because they have full access to all the data and statistics that show them the problem is one that needs addressing?  I mean, I don't know either, but I trust that the change is for a valid reason and that reason must be because there's a problem with it.

 

You have a number of valid points. And that question of what is active gameplay is the most important. The concern that some of us are raising is is it worth addressing a small percentage of AFKers, which aren't discouraged while in sPvP or PvE while punishing active gameplay by a larger non-AFK group in WvW? To people that actually try and defend and create fights are grouped with AFKers that are accepted by ANet in other game modes. That's an issue.

 

Sadly, as an analyst, no stats are really bad at proving a point and can be made to show one sided stories when not all sides have the same data to work with. Based on stats no one should win any 1v3s but it happens. No havoc should drive away a zerg, but it can happen with deception. Stats are easy to abuse. Since I also program I have 30 years of knowledge that devs can be mis-lead by stats as well. So no, all we can do here is provide feedback saying, maybe its not how it appears and what attributes did you record for those numbers? But I agree with your core thought, what is active gameplay and can that be captured?

[TheGrimm.5624]

36 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Ultimately speaking, if nobody is attacking, then nobody can defend. This is why there needs to be incentive to take the offense. A game that allows camping isn't really much of a game, because when camping is allowed.... people camp. So rewards need to reward offense, or else nothing happens.

As an extreme example, if all everyone did were repair walls, then nothing would be accomplished. You wouldn't even be able to repair walls because nobody was attacking!

But anyhow, there's definitely a lot of bashing about "karma trains" and stuff, but even the lamest of trains gives everyone something to do either offensively or defensively and requires a bit of effort to run.

As to prove a point, today I spent like 20 minutes repairing NE tower and fire keep, while repelling attackers. On a beta character, so there were no rewards anyways. Participation did not dip below level 6 once established. Now in all fairness, I only defended because someone requested and I didn't feel they should be alone xD.

Though this is also why I oppose the siege timer changes. Opening up objectives generates action1, but it's also a highly undesirable activity.

 

 

 

Yes and no. To me, attacking is about personal reward, and defending is about server rewards. Which right now we don't have server rewards so that is discouraged. Yes we need people to attack but its better if people attack and others defend. The imbalance is taking something pays, defending, and/or losing does not. For fights we need to find that balance between the two in both fun and in what people consider rewarding since some players will link rewards with fun. I am not saying reward inactive people nor those that defend something not under attack but we pay a lot more for those that take an empty structure versus those that try and hold something against larger odds.To encourage actual fights we need people to do both, but to many defenders we seem to keep hearing, stop defending based on changes. Just take the empty structures. 

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

 

Yes and no. To me, attacking is about personal reward, and defending is about server rewards. Which right now we don't have server rewards so that is discouraged. Yes we need people to attack but its better if people attack and others defend. The imbalance is taking something pays, defending, and/or losing does not. For fights we need to find that balance between the two in both fun and in what people consider rewarding since some players will link rewards with fun. I am not saying reward inactive people nor those that defend something not under attack but we pay a lot more for those that take an empty structure versus those that try and hold something against larger odds.To encourage actual fights we need people to do both, but to many defenders we seem to keep hearing, stop defending based on changes. Just take the empty structures. 

 

You are right that ideally you have both attackers and defenders, however the problem isn't so much that defending grants less rewards than attacking. If you successfully defend a structure by defeating the attackers you gain a lot more out of that fight than the latter, while also having a few advantages in the fight itself.  The problem is, that players want to avoid opposing players while farming rewards with as little effort and risk as possible (that's also where all those complains now stem from - defending didn't became less rewarding at all - stitting inside structures, avoiding any confontation with enemies is what changed).

And that's also the reason why there are less players willing to defend, before the changes just as much as now. Defending always means you have to deal with attacking players. Meanwhile you can attack empty structures and get easy rewards without having to deal with other players. And that wouldn't be a problem if players weren't so focused on rewards to begin with and it is one reason why WvW was better in the eyes of many when the rewards were garbage. It is also not something that can be fixed by addding more rewards, doesn't matter to which activity, because as long the focus is on earning those rewads instead of the actual gameplay, players will always seek the easiest and fastest way and that's typically the way that involves the least amount of PvP interaction, because PvP always comes with the risk of losing. Rewards should never be the main focus of an open world PvP game mode. Ever.

Edited December 2, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

 

Yes and no. To me, attacking is about personal reward, and defending is about server rewards. Which right now we don't have server rewards so that is discouraged. Yes we need people to attack but its better if people attack and others defend. The imbalance is taking something pays, defending, and/or losing does not. For fights we need to find that balance between the two in both fun and in what people consider rewarding since some players will link rewards with fun. I am not saying reward inactive people nor those that defend something not under attack but we pay a lot more for those that take an empty structure versus those that try and hold something against larger odds.To encourage actual fights we need people to do both, but to many defenders we seem to keep hearing, stop defending based on changes. Just take the empty structures. 

I've never really been a subscriber of this attack/defend dichotomy.. Just like I think people can scout, but it's not necessary to exclusively be a scout. And I sorta question how someone can be a scout without leaving structures and doing stuff out of it.

The game's always rewarded people more for partaking in all aspects, so a good WvW player should do both. But attacking and defending lead to kills and it's also easier to accomplish the later because of siege and keep buffs. It's just when you see examples earlier in the thread like people not even getting on siege or joining the fight when their own commander comes that well... that's way too passive lol. Proper defense still includes offense; many people do not understand that hitting targets on the enemy BL helps draw people away from your own.

The current concept of server rewards does not exist due to winning the matchup not meaning anything due to server imbalance. Now I admit a lot of what I described breaks down because of this, but you cannot expect the reward system to be balanced around dysfunctional servers. Repairing is only one aspect of defense too.

I mean this crap goes both ways. Commanders aren't going to respond to bad scouting (eg, THEYRE ON LORD HALP), and defenders aren't going to put up with commanders that tell them to get off their map because they want the map to be their guild's playground without regard to the BL structures itself.

I dunno. I think it is still ridiculous to stop playing over this. Though granted, there are very few things that would make me stop playing.

Oh btw, if I didn't care about defense, I would have a lot of extra inventory space: https://imgur.com/a/oYh7Zru

 

[God.2708]

Whilst it's all fun and games, a bit of research on what 'defense' is can be insightful.

Characteristics of proper defense can be described as disruption, flexibility, mass and concentration, preparation, and security.

Someone only repairing walls is only looking at two of those characteristics. Most 'scouts' are doing at best three of those things. Whether you like it or not, you are defending badly. Playing worse should lead to worse rewards.

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

Whilst it's all fun and games, a bit of research on what 'defense' is can be insightful.

Characteristics of proper defense can be described as disruption, flexibility, mass and concentration, preparation, and security.

Someone only repairing walls is only looking at two of those characteristics. Most 'scouts' are doing at best three of those things. Whether you like it or not, you are defending badly. Playing worse should lead to worse rewards.

And God has spoken.

[Shiyo.3578]

I personally don't miss the days of attacking a keep/fort and suddenly 15 people come and kill me, then I never see them again. Why? They were AFK repairing and not going to ever leave the keep/fort.

[Gorem.8104]

23 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

I personally don't miss the days of attacking a keep/fort and suddenly 15 people come and kill me, then I never see them again. Why? They were AFK repairing and not going to ever leave the keep/fort.

afk repairing and yet they came out and killed you, interesting form of afk there as they defended the area and also pvp'd and yet that's apparently being afk? heh. 
Yeah how dare people defend objectives am I right? How dare people play the game differently then K-training. 

[Sugar Min.5834]

On 12/4/2021 at 2:13 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

I personally don't miss the days of attacking a keep/fort and suddenly 15 people come and kill me, then I never see them again. Why? They were AFK repairing and not going to ever leave the keep/fort.

What? Now we have auto-attack-auto-repair-afk bots? 😄