Petition requesting the return of the second dodge for the mirage in all game modes !

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

It is my observation that it is really strong in pvp but I don't play it since i can't do well with it in pvp. 

Again it's so strong that no one plays it competitively. 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

It is my observation that it is really strong in pvp but I don't play it since i can't do well with it in pvp. 

 

If it's so strong in pvp how come you can't do well with it in pvp.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Hirosama Nadasaki.6792

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I used to main DPS Mirage in WvW til the nerf. I miss it, condi mirage is still gross so I refuse to play it (hence why bots typically use condi mirage)

On the other hand having 1 dodge make killing those mirage bots easier than 2 dodges lol (see em every week almost)

[Exciton.8942]

My proposal would be

Bring back two dodges to mirage in PvP/WvW but reduce the evade duration to 1/2s.

Both mirage's offensive and defensive kits are tied to mirage cloak. With only one dodge, you have to choose between offense and defense at given time. Such hard trade-off forces mirage to go with tanky condi build and heavily relies on getting evade frame from signet trait.

Mirage cloak is definitely strong which lets you evade even CC'ed or using other skill. To keep a trade-off in place, I think a evade duration reduction is warranted. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Exciton.8942

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 hours ago, Exciton.8942 said:

My proposal would be

Bring back two dodges to mirage in PvP/WvW but reduce the evade duration to 1/2s.

Both mirage's offensive and defensive kits are tied to mirage cloak. With only one dodge, you have to choose between offense and defense at given time. Such hard trade-off forces mirage to go with tanky condi build and heavily relies on getting evade frame from signet trait.

Mirage cloak is definitely strong which lets you evade even CC'ed or using other skill. To keep a trade-off in place, I think a evade duration reduction is warranted. 

Truth be told i rather then give back all the kitten they nerfed when we had 2 dodges, at this point returning all the crap that was nerfed will be a better tradeoff then giving us back 2 dodges.

[Jables.4659]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:15 AM, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

 

The through line is y'all just want to play power mirage and dont care how disgusting condi mirage can get with two dodges.

So as much as this is a meme at this point. Virtuoso IS your best hope for power mesmer.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I do care about cMirage turning back into a disgusting monster.  I want to trade Infinite Horizon for the second dodge.  If cMirage still needs to be toned down, it could definitely be done without neutering Core or pMirage.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

 

I can only speak for myself, but I do care about cMirage turning back into a disgusting monster.  I want to trade Infinite Horizon for the second dodge.  If cMirage still needs to be toned down, it could definitely be done without neutering Core or pMirage.

 Infinite Horizon is sadly our best GM trait for Mirage, compare to the other 2 GM traits and sand dune that was practically NEVER used in its lifetime. Compare Mirage GM traits with every other specs GM traits it is extremely lackluster and should not even be in the grandmaster traitline. 

Truth be told Cmirage shouldnt even be a issue anymore because they had removed burn from staff completely and changed how confusion and torment work.

Again its not condi that is the problem its trailblazers but this sparks the debate of power vs condi dmg...glass vs bunker.

If condi dmg required the glass stats as power builds do then power will always be the better option. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Zraurum.8493]

20 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

 

I can only speak for myself, but I do care about cMirage turning back into a disgusting monster.  I want to trade Infinite Horizon for the second dodge.  If cMirage still needs to be toned down, it could definitely be done without neutering Core or pMirage.

Infinite Horizon, this is what makes a mirage a mirage, by removing this feature you can safely change the name of the class. By dodge was originally two! No need to remove or replace anything else, you just need to return it as it was!

Edited January 26, 2022 by Zraurum.8493

[Moradorin.6217]

3 hours ago, Zraurum.8493 said:

Infinite Horizon, this is what makes a mirage a mirage, by removing this feature you can safely change the name of the class. By dodge was originally two! No need to remove or replace anything else, you just need to return it as it was!

Elite specs need defining mechanics that canbe used so one dodge is the worst possible thing that could have been to Mirage since its defining mechanic IS a special dodge.... Also Every class should have either good GM traits to choose from that work are generally beneficial just in different ways like say DareDevil, Scourge, etc, or at least one very good generally useful GM trait like Mirage has with IH.

 

No one should propose removal of IH in exchange for 2nd dodge back without some suggested replacement. IMO all that needed to change was IH should have gotten an internal cooldown of a few seconds and we could have kept the 2nd dodge. An alternative would be to just change MC to work the same as other dodges with respect to CC. After that its a matter of adjusting actual damage be it ambush damage or base weapon damage, but I would say base damage impacts core so IMO ambush damage would work best overall.

 

Its a simple doable change. That is: Return 2nd dodge and add cooldown to IH. Then later if its too powerful adjust damage.

 

Another general aspect of Mesmer that should be looked at eventually is all the cooldown nerfs that got added leading up to the eventual one dodge removal since all those cooldown changes seemed to relate to trying to nerf Mirage mostly.  Many of the cooldowns seem to really hurt the playability of core and general build options and seem unbalanced compared to other similar skills and cooldown timers. Signet of Humility and decoy come to mind.

[Zraurum.8493]

1 hour ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Elite specs need defining mechanics that canbe used so one dodge is the worst possible thing that could have been to Mirage since its defining mechanic IS a special dodge.... Also Every class should have either good GM traits to choose from that work are generally beneficial just in different ways like say DareDevil, Scourge, etc, or at least one very good generally useful GM trait like Mirage has with IH.

 

No one should propose removal of IH in exchange for 2nd dodge back without some suggested replacement. IMO all that needed to change was IH should have gotten an internal cooldown of a few seconds and we could have kept the 2nd dodge. An alternative would be to just change MC to work the same as other dodges with respect to CC. After that its a matter of adjusting actual damage be it ambush damage or base weapon damage, but I would say base damage impacts core so IMO ambush damage would work best overall.

 

Its a simple doable change. That is: Return 2nd dodge and add cooldown to IH. Then later if its too powerful adjust damage.

 

Another general aspect of Mesmer that should be looked at eventually is all the cooldown nerfs that got added leading up to the eventual one dodge removal since all those cooldown changes seemed to relate to trying to nerf Mirage mostly.  Many of the cooldowns seem to really hurt the playability of core and general build options and seem unbalanced compared to other similar skills and cooldown timers. Signet of Humility and decoy come to mind.

Even with two dodges, with all those nerfs that were made in the year 20, the mirage was already much inferior in pvp to all classes, they just took damage from the axe and cut it off by 30%, and the vortex chaos was also done in terms of damage as an auto attack almost.

What a cooldown of the horizon speech when, and so, the damage is cut to such a state that even the weakest class in pvp will inflict more damage than the condi mirage. I'm still silent that just with a stroke of the pen they reduced the number of clones by one and reduced their condi time by as much as possible and play as you want.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Zraurum.8493

[Moradorin.6217]

13 minutes ago, Zraurum.8493 said:

Even with two dodges, with all those nerfs that were made in the year 20, the mirage was already much inferior in pvp to all classes, they just took damage from the axe and cut it off by 30%, and the vortex chaos was also done in terms of damage as an auto attack almost.

What a cooldown of the horizon speech when, and so, the damage is cut to such a state that even the weakest class in pvp will inflict more damage than the condi mirage. I'm still silent that just with a stroke of the pen they reduced the number of clones by one and reduced their condi time by as much as possible and play as you want.

Personally I agree. That post I suggest IH get a cooldown is in response to the idea that IH should be removed to add in the other dodge. I guess Jables actually made the suggestion a few posts before. I quoted your post because I agree and was trying to spit ball a working solution to help bring the two sides of the argument to a workable consensus.

 

I would be inclined to agree Mirage was fine before the 2nd dodge was removed due to previous nerfs, however, that argument has never been well accepted by others. Therefore, I suggest a cooldown on IH or a change to how MC works while CCed. Either would seem to resolve any legitimate gripe people had about Mirage when it had both dodges.

 

Also a cooldown on IH wouldnt really hurt damage too much. Ambush skills already need a slight delay between dodges to activate don't they? It would cut down on the ability to counter CC with damage via IH in the form of clone ambush tho. Seems like a cooldown on IH would reduce burst in some instances but would allow Mirage to mostly function like before. Im open to being told why Im wrong in thinking this, but from I remember of playing Mirage it seems reasonable.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Zraurum.8493]

31 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Personally I agree. That post I suggest IH get a cooldown is in response to the idea that IH should be removed to add in the other dodge. I guess Jables actually made the suggestion a few posts before. I quoted your post because I agree and was trying to spit ball a working solution to help bring the two sides of the argument to a workable consensus.

 

I would be inclined to agree Mirage was fine before the 2nd dodge was removed due to previous nerfs, however, that argument has never been well accepted by others. Therefore, I suggest a cooldown on IH or a change to how MC works while CCed. Either would seem to resolve any legitimate gripe people had about Mirage when it had both dodges.

 

Also a cooldown on IH wouldnt really hurt damage too much. Ambush skills already need a slight delay between dodges to activate don't they? It would cut down on the ability to counter CC with damage via IH in the form of clone ambush tho. Seems like a cooldown on IH would reduce burst in some instances but would allow Mirage to mostly function like before. Im open to being told why Im wrong in thinking this, but from I remember of playing Mirage it seems reasonable.

Realize that the mirage is at the very bottom in terms of damage, it has low dps, doing something with the Infinity Horizon trait will cause the mirage to stop damaging her in pve, which will be complete nonsense.

I don’t know if you’ve been playing this class for a long time, just if you look at the evolution of mirage skills, almost every skill is nerfed in pvp either to an almost unusable state like a dune cloak and chaotic interrupt, or essentially a one-time use in pvp like illusory ambush. Also a trait like evasive mirror with 10 sec cooldown and one dodge how do you rate the usefulness of this skill ?

And if you look into the table of norms and see what was returned there, the return of the second dodge is only a small part of restoring the normal balance of this class

As I understood from the discussion on the forum, the desert distortion feature led to a problem with dodge, so let it be corrected.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Zraurum.8493
added correct translate

[Salt Mode.3780]

The biggest complaint for Mirage is being able to dodge while CC, problem is you really cannot remove the being able to dodge while CC aspect of this because a normal dodge allows more distance and is not susceptible to things like slow or chill or even the most annoying CC in the game root.

There is a tradeoff that most people will not speak of because all they see is that oh you can dodge while CC remove it then ok what is the trade off for a stationary dodge? Instead of coming with actual ideas for the tradeoff people just want a flat out nerf. Currently all dodge is a .75 sec iframe window to dodge attacks, you can lower MC into .5 sec iframe window which is huge btw so with 2 dodge Mirage is losing a total of .5 seconds of iframe.

Another would be instead of removing a whole dodge bar reduce our dodge bar from 100 to 75 which isnt a whole dodge but a dodge and a half.

In terms of IH, when mirage was release no one even bothered using IH because of how strong Elusive Mind is. Even when they put the 3 seconds of exhaustion people still preferred it over IH. 

Right now as it stands in PvP it removes 2 condis per dodge which the joke is Mirage only has 1 dodge so you are telling me a 8 second fixed cooldown on a dodge is worth taking for cleansing 2 condi when in WvW sigil of cleansing is 3 condis on a 9 sec weapon swap CD...

So let me ask why is it that Mesmers of all the classes are the ones that always have to think of something to trade off, its like give us back one eye while I trade you my ears.

If the biggest problem is casuals not being able to understand how to fight Mesmers then so be it, handicapping and nerfing the class for casuals to easier fight the class is only fostering bad players.

There is a reason why GW2 tourney viewership is so low. Lack of build diversity in sPvP, unable to truly balance jobs and classes. Lack of class diversity. What does this all stem down to...? Devs not playing their game to an actual competitive standpoint to understand what needs balancing. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Avion Blade.4869]

If the second evade will remain lost, then please compensate by having the Deception trait option (column 1 top option of Mirage spec line), reduce deception skill cooldown by 20% like how chaos column 1 bottom option reduces manipulation skills by 20%

 

This will make in WvW illusionary ambush go from 35 seconds to 28 seconds and the other skills of deception reduced similarly by 20% so that the mirage can almost have it's evade capabilities as it did pre-second evade removal. And, because it is selectable, it will forego mid option for condi incoming duration reduction for balance. Hopefully other people don't deny this.

[Mell.4873]

The second dodge and the lower the dodge frames would be okay since then you still build clones based of dodging. 

[Kylden Ar.3724]

On 11/29/2021 at 3:45 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

IPeople will tell the most absurd kitten to sell you something. 

Mirage was already one of the professions with the least amount of dodges before they cut out one dodge.

All vigor was nerfed into absurd levels, a single vigor trait from one of the other professions gets you the same vigor than mirage with three vigor traits. 

To add to that evade was reduce to match a regular dodge and the mobility of dodge was reduce to lower than a regular dodge and let's not even talk if you've impairing conditions on you. 

One dodge makes you spam on full endurance instead of playing smart. 

So please put the guitar back in the bag and go play your kitten music somewhere else. 

 

 

On 12/1/2021 at 10:07 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Mirrors are garbage. They give away your movement and are easily countered unless you waste a movement skill to get there, the only mirrors commonly picked are the heal an depending on the build desert distortion. 

Yeah it is superior in that aspect and the hard cc aspect but what about the movement aspect of the dodge? You can't create or close gaps with mirage cloak and it gets even shorter if you've cripple or chill unlike a regular dodge and they don't even cover the entirety of the ambush only around half of the cast. So while they're good they are not as godly as people like to make them. Are you trying to dodge on aoe, gl because you'll still be there at the end of the dodge. 

 

On 12/1/2021 at 2:01 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Yeah totally forgot mesmers are always on sword, silly me. And that's not to say that kitten is bugged since release and bugs out every time. Oh and the distance of thrust is affected by impairing conditions. 

Do you people even know how to read? Distance travel of a regular dodge is superior to distance travel of mirage cloak, and I'm counting only moving forward, because "dodge back or sideways" is non existant. 

You can twist and turn all you want, facts are facts. Mirage cloak does have trade-offs in itself. 

 

 

On 12/4/2021 at 5:26 PM, Yoci.2481 said:

You could build an entire new profession from all the stuff taken from Mesmer. And we are left a mere shadow of ourselfs, a phantasm if you excuse the pun, pale and shallow compared to other classes.

 

On 12/9/2021 at 12:06 AM, Hot Boy.7138 said:

i'd return to the game if they brought back the second dodge.  That february 2020 updated ruined all the fun i had 

 

AMEN TO ALL THIS!

All this crap is why I barely play now. They murdered my main, of YEARS. HOURS! Too many hours really...

Murdered it because some people can't pick human movement from AI movement.

 

While all this time, Scourge and Firebrand get to be truly opressive in WvW (or as I call the mode now, "The Floor is Lava, everywhere."). Where are their tradeoffs for their specs eh?

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

Anet had the dodges correct at Mirage Release.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

On 11/28/2021 at 1:51 PM, Zraurum.8493 said:

Dear arena and players, our favorite class is discriminated against compared to other classes, I would like the arena not to return the second dodge to the mirage. And I would like to bring this problem to the surface and not hush it up. Maybe if a lot of people sign this request to ArenaNet, then maybe they will hear us and return the second Dodge to our beloved mirage!

 

https://chng.it/ccnLZTxLqf

 

The way mirage works now is by breaking mirrors-cubes so that is how you get extra dodge. What makes mesmer tricky to play now is that you have to dodge and cast spells on cooldown but offensively and defensively- to evade enemy spell. 

[Nezekan.2671]

The issue here is how everything was designed to work with two dodges, but when mirage lost 1 dodge in some modes, nothing was done to change this. The regen trait and protection trait in mirage are now weakest regen and weakest protection respectively, because you were suppose to double dodge to stack their duration. Mirage is a very dodge centric class, and almost all traits interact with dodges. So losing one dodge should have meant buffing all these traits.

[Waffles.5632]

Honestly they could just keep one dodge but make it go back to 1sec duration again. It only makes sense that Mirage Dodges last the longest! Mwhahaha

[Yoci.2481]

They first need to fix core Mesmer and only after that adjust the elites accordingly.

[Tseison.4659]

As I mentioned a while back, if they want to reduce Mirage to a one dodge for PvP/WvW, then I suggest they do the same for Daredevil. I don't know why Anet has this strange obsession with making one dodge elites without proper compensation when we're all so use to using two...

[Waffles.5632]

4 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

As I mentioned a while back, if they want to reduce Mirage to a one dodge for PvP/WvW, then I suggest they do the same for Daredevil. I don't know why Anet has this strange obsession with making one dodge elites without proper compensation when we're all so use to using two...

This is a dishonest argument.

Look I'm all for bringing back the second dodge, but the fact of the matter is, Mirage Cloak is really OP. Daredevil could have 5 dodges and still not compare. Here I will explain.

 

Mirage Cloak operates completely separately from any other mechanic in the game. All one needs to do to be an ace with mirage cloak is just watch for animations, and press the button. It does not interrupt anything that the mesmer is doing. Even reviving/downing.

Every other dodge in the game, even the new vindicator one, locks you in a dodge animation while you are dodging, thus interrupting whatever current action your character is doing as well. This means making a choice, a choice that mirage never has to make. They are completely free of it.

 

I really cannot believe that people talk about mesmer pvp balance, but never bring this up about mirage cloak, and how insanely useful that is, and it is completely unique to Mirages.

 

We don't need to nerf other classes, and tbh, having one dodge isn't really that bad  either, rather, what we really need most are touch ups to bring our other traits up -just a smidge- to compensate the lack of 2 dodges, and seriously, perhaps an undoing of the dodge duration nerf. Make Mirage Cloak last 1 second in pvp, to compensate for the removal of the second dodge, and see how it works.

 

A lot of mesmers just like to complain, are jaded, and would rather have people believe that the class is completely broken and unplayable, when that is just simply not the truth at all.

 

 

[Senqu.8054]

18 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

This is a dishonest argument.

Look I'm all for bringing back the second dodge, but the fact of the matter is, Mirage Cloak is really OP. Daredevil could have 5 dodges and still not compare. Here I will explain.

 

Mirage Cloak operates completely separately from any other mechanic in the game. All one needs to do to be an ace with mirage cloak is just watch for animations, and press the button. It does not interrupt anything that the mesmer is doing. Even reviving/downing.

Every other dodge in the game, even the new vindicator one, locks you in a dodge animation while you are dodging, thus interrupting whatever current action your character is doing as well. This means making a choice, a choice that mirage never has to make. They are completely free of it.

 

I really cannot believe that people talk about mesmer pvp balance, but never bring this up about mirage cloak, and how insanely useful that is, and it is completely unique to Mirages.

 

We don't need to nerf other classes, and tbh, having one dodge isn't really that bad  either, rather, what we really need most are touch ups to bring our other traits up -just a smidge- to compensate the lack of 2 dodges, and seriously, perhaps an undoing of the dodge duration nerf. Make Mirage Cloak last 1 second in pvp, to compensate for the removal of the second dodge, and see how it works.

 

A lot of mesmers just like to complain, are jaded, and would rather have people believe that the class is completely broken and unplayable, when that is just simply not the truth at all.

 

 

Partially I can understand you that always being able to safe stomp, heal and cover up skills was to an extend toxic gameplay. But yet power mirage was an extremely fair fight in the past with a much better MC at this time. In fact, it was the first time gw2 offered a real alternative to daredevil. And I’m pretty sure if you would remove jaunt and sword ambush, you wouldn’t have a single point to choose mirage even with 2 dodges.
 

But here we are accepting that thief / dd kit is more or less meta since 10 / 7 years while mesmer got nuked out of existence. MC + mobility was the only real thing power-Mirage brought to the table. Everything else at power-mirage is just the core mesmer kit which is alone not competitive at all. This is very important to consider if you really want to discuss if MC is justified. 

 

This also results in the fact, that power-mirage played without any real condi remove again, after the elusive mind nerf. Allways the Limitation to weapon swap, jaunt and torch. Do people even understand what a pain this is?

 

If you haven’t taken portal and made smart moves with it, it was also better to take something else then power-mirage because without portal power-Mirage offered again not enough for competitive play.

 

So I’m asking again, is it really an MC issue or an Condi-Mirage issue that we have here? Condi-Mirage had the freedom to swap 1 stealth utility skill for something else. Condi-Mirage had the freedom to take axe and other de-targeting skills. Condi-Mirage could take on both weapon sets energy and cleansing sigil. Condi-Mirage had strong hitting passive ambushes. Condi-Mirage has condi pressure on almost every skill. Condi-Mirage can take inspiration trait line without the huge deficits it has for power. Condi-Mirage can play with 3 Signets / can take SoI and has access to double F4 without being punished in this extend like power-Mirage. 
 

To make MC here always the culprit just does not consider many other factors. The evaluation of the viability of MC by just looking at MC alone is a dishonest argumentation. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Senqu.8054

[Salt Mode.3780]

Ok MC is the main focal point but has anyone put up valid suggestions to nerfing MC? You take away the ability to dodge while CC then what about the fact that its a stationary dodge...? You can Jump dodge for more distance but you cannot jumpdodge MC. Being able to dodge in CC is to compensate for the lack of range. Also like to point out that dodges do not get affected by slow or chill effects unlike MC.

In terms of Condi mirage I understand how insanely broken it is in sPvP but in WvW truth be told you can simply out run the condi mirage and it literally cannot do anything to catch up to you. Memsers have 1 blink and 2 Jaunts, any class with weapon based mobility skill will and can outrun any condi mirage.