Okay, Hot Take.

[LittleSoftTail.8405]

GW2/Anet devs, if you want players to experience the story of GW2 naturally without players missing major plot points or major character introductions, either include Living World with the expansions OR make Living World optional to the story and have the characters introduced through HoT and PoF/have a recap on Living World through HoT and PoF. It is REALLY frustrating getting into HoT for the first time and being like "WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE, AND WHAT AM I DOING?" and then realizing Living World is actually insanely necessary to the story which, DLC is supposed to be optional, not crucial to story. People, like me, are going to see Living World as optional DLC because it's not included with the purchase of their respective expansions. It's a really dumb mistake to make for a video game's devs.

To those that decide to use the "Confused" emote on my post, Living World is necessary for story, Living World isn't free and isn't included with the expansions and are most likely seen as optional to most players, therefore, major plot points and major character introductions are missed. Do I make myself clear?

Edited February 2, 2022 by LittleSoftTail.8405

[Farohna.6247]

After I purchased the game, I played HoT and PoF, not the living world seasons.  I then went back and purchase them and played through them.  You do feel like you missed a page, but it doesn't make it unplayable or that frustrating.  You can always look up any questions or a synopsis.  And pssssst it's a way to get you to spend some gems, or wait for the rare occasion it's free.  

[LittleSoftTail.8405]

1 minute ago, Farohna.6247 said:

After I purchased the game, I played HoT and PoF, not the living world seasons.  I then went back and purchase them and played through them.  You do feel like you missed a page, but it doesn't make it unplayable or that frustrating.  You can always look up any questions or a synopsis.  And pssssst it's a way to get you to spend some gems, or wait for the rare occasion it's free.  

Yes, but still, it's not a good idea to put major plot points and character introductions in DLC that isn't attached to any expansions.

[Farohna.6247]

I follow you there, it should be build up as opposed to a full scale elder dragon.  And it can be confusing to suddenly come into why the pact crashed in the jungle or that kind of thing without having a living world season.  On a storytelling level and for anyone trying to catch up it's frustrating.  For the people who played and got it for free it's an extra little cherry on top of content.  So I feel your exasperation with the way they've done it.

[LittleSoftTail.8405]

2 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I follow you there, it should be build up as opposed to a full scale elder dragon.  And it can be confusing to suddenly come into why the pact crashed in the jungle or that kind of thing without having a living world season.  On a storytelling level and for anyone trying to catch up it's frustrating.  For the people who played and got it for free it's an extra little cherry on top of content.  So I feel your exasperation with the way they've done it.

Yeah, and sadly, apparently I talk in some eldritch language because every time I say something, people get confused or on here, just use the confused reaction emote. If what I am saying confuses anyone, I'd like to know what so I can be more clear with what I am saying.

[Rasimir.6239]

Honestly, the story journal in your hero panel makes it pretty obvious that living world seasons are just as much a part of the story as the expansions.

2 minutes ago, LittleSoftTail.8405 said:

it's not a good idea to put major plot points and character introductions in DLC that isn't attached to any expansions

So what do you propose? Stop offering living world as episodes on the gem store and instead sell the seasons as expansions, too? Somehow I can't imagine that that would go over well.

 

Let's face it, selling dlc that include story parts isn't exactly new in mmorpgs. ESO does it (and even goes so far as to put parts of the ongoing story into dungeon-only dlc twice each year), LotRO does it, it's just nothing out of the ordinary these days.

If you want a game that gives you the full story with a single purchase, your best bet would be single player games, not live service games that expand continuously. Expanding the world and story exclusively through expansions is unrealistic in today's fast-paced world, where people expect bite-sized content drops regularly.

[voltaicbore.8012]

15 minutes ago, LittleSoftTail.8405 said:

Yes, but still, it's not a good idea to put major plot points and character introductions in DLC that isn't attached to any expansions.

This is far from a hot take - many threads have been made about this in recent years. I agree with your position, and I mention this every time there's a discussion about LW and new players feeling blindsided by it.

Unfortunately I think this stupidly hybrid structure is here to stay; the "hybrid" part comes from the mixture of LW (1) being entirely optional in terms of moving your gameplay forward, but (2) being required if you want the full story experience.

If ANet always planned on making LW a mechanism for continuing mainline story, they should market and sell it that way, instead of making it look and sound much like side story or optional DLC from other games.

At this point I'm certain this problem will never get fixed, likely because ANet doesn't even see it as a big enough problem. And from a revenue standpoint, maybe it's not. So for example of ANet ever does get around to a Steam release, chances are new players won't even find out about the LW issue until after the refund period is up. As for the current reality (where we can only buy the game directly from ANet) I suspect people demanding refunds and uninstalling - solely because of these LW gaps - is not a frequent occurrence. So either way ANet gets their bag.

Ultimately it's another weird quirk to live with, kind of like how GW2's LFG doesn't actually port group members into the instance from anywhere in the world. It's something that almost every other peer title does, but we just live with our weird little handicapped LFG. Just how it is.

Edited February 2, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[LittleSoftTail.8405]

2 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

Honestly, the story journal in your hero panel makes it pretty obvious that living world seasons are just as much a part of the story as the expansions.

So what do you propose? Stop offering living world as episodes on the gem store and instead sell the seasons as expansions, too? Somehow I can't imagine that that would go over well.

 

Let's face it, selling dlc that include story parts isn't exactly new in mmorpgs. ESO does it (and even goes so far as to put parts of the ongoing story into dungeon-only dlc twice each year), LotRO does it, it's just nothing out of the ordinary these days.

If you want a game that gives you the full story with a single purchase, your best bet would be single player games, not live service games that expand continuously. Expanding the world and story exclusively through expansions is unrealistic in today's fast-paced world, where people expect bite-sized content drops regularly.

Well then, it would be nice if they, at least, did a recap on what happened in Living World for those who don't want to spend extra for it. Being broke, all I can do is wait until the rare occaission arrives where they give away bits of it for free. Most I can afford is the expansions. Back in the day, you didn't need to buy random kitten DLC to get the full story on an expansion in MMOs.

[AgentMoore.9453]

GW2 really does feel like a book with the first chapter ripped out, huh? I don't mind that the living world is something you have to buy, but LS1 being gone and LS full stop not being included in the various 'complete' editions of the game offered over the years has been a huge issue among new/returning players who think they're buying the whole game only to learn that they actually aren't.

Given that this has been a frequently-recurring conversation since the dawn of the game, I guess it's either a really hard packaging problem to solve or ArenaNet just don't care to solve it. Feels bad for a story-focused game either way.

[LittleSoftTail.8405]

Just now, AgentMoore.9453 said:

GW2 really does feel like a book with the first chapter ripped out, huh? I don't mind that the living world is something you have to buy, but LS1 being gone and LS full stop not being included in the various 'complete' editions of the game offered over the years has been a huge issue among new/returning players who think they're buying the whole game only to learn that they actually aren't.

Given that this has been a frequently-recurring conversation since the dawn of the game, I guess it's either a really hard packaging problem to solve or ArenaNet just don't care to solve it. Feels bad for a story-focused game either way.

Yeah, it just... frustrates me. GW2's story may not be great, but it would be really kittening nice if I didn't need to fork over an extra $60+ dollars for DLC that should be optional but isn't. It's, honestly, kind of a kitten move and needs to keep being addressed until it annoys the devs enough to change it.

[Randulf.7614]

I agree it needs to be clearer and better packaged, but the living story is the main driving force of the story itself. Suggesting to make it optional after 9 successful years seems like a really odd request to make. This is never, ever going to be changed.

Season 1 certainly needs a recap, but the issue largely revolves around Anets poor marketing. Living World Seasons are mini expacs and in fact often have equal or more content. They really just lack new elites and features. Because Anet uses both expansions and seasons for releases, newer players don’t always realise that seasons are just as big and important - in some ways at least - as the expansions themselves.

So, making it optional isn’t really… well an option

 

Also, people use confuse vote as a dislike apparently. Bless ‘em

Edited February 3, 2022 by Randulf.7614

[voltaicbore.8012]

18 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I agree it needs to be clearer and better packaged, but the living story is the main driving force of the story itself. Suggesting to make it optional after 9 successful years seems like a really odd request to make. This is never, ever going to be changed.

This is pretty much exactly how I see things.

We can question the wisdom of the decision to make LW continue the main story, but that decision has been made already. I think it would only make things stupider to now, after 9 years and 5 seasons, to suddenly turn them purely into side-story-only DLC. Also as you pointed out Randulf, LW seasons contain a ton of content, and are well worth the price. As such, I don't think the content or design of LW needs to change.

So really the only reasonable solution is to vastly improve the way this good & worth-the-price content is marketed to new players. Describing them as having "additional" story and sticking them in the same giant list as recurring festivals makes them look like side content. Even worse, you can't even buy anything other than S2 directly at the point of sale. It's just... bad all around.

Edited February 3, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Gibson.4036]

A “hot take” is a response to a brand new event. It’s “hot” because it is immediate.

Perhaps that’s the source of some confused responses.

Or perhaps it’s confusion that this wasn’t just added to any of the other recent threads about the same thing.

[mungozen.2379]

12 hours ago, LittleSoftTail.8405 said:

GW2/Anet devs, if you want players to experience the story of GW2 naturally without players missing major plot points or major character introductions, either include Living World with the expansions OR make Living World optional to the story and have the characters introduced through HoT and PoF/have a recap on Living World through HoT and PoF. It is REALLY frustrating getting into HoT for the first time and being like "WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE, AND WHAT AM I DOING?" and then realizing Living World is actually insanely necessary to the story which, DLC is supposed to be optional, not crucial to story. People, like me, are going to see Living World as optional DLC because it's not included with the purchase of their respective expansions. It's a really dumb mistake to make for a video game's devs.

It is optional.  You can go to YouTube and find the entire story from LWS1 through IBS captured in many different ways.  I have also run across transcriptions of the Living World and Expac stories for those who want to read it.

So there are free options.

However, a question for you.  Before buying the expansion, would anything have changed for you knowing that there are 4 DLC that cost 12-15 dollars each?  That there are 7 'blocks' of content after the Core game, not 3?

As an aside, it has been a while since IBS was released as well.  I am interested to see how people who haven't played during a Living World release feel when they are getting that content for free simply cause they logged in when it went live (assuming Anet gives us another LWS).

Edited February 3, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

So, what you are asking for is that ArenaNet raise the price of expansions and make it so that no one can acquire Living World Season Episodes at no cost?  I'm not sure that would please everyone. 

[Vayne.8563]

I would feel the OPs point stronger if LS Season 1 was available in game, but it's not. 

Which means that even if Anet gave away the entire living world for free, you'd have a chunk missing anyway and you still wouldn't know who most of the characters were. You'd be in the same boat either way.

Also, you don't have to pay cash for the Living World, you can farm gold for it. It takes time, but it's an option.  

[ClickToKill.8473]

As someone who didn't play much during LS 1, I would certainly pay the gems for that.

[Teratus.2859]

I agree and I've played all the story as its come out.

I've spoken up a few times in the past that I also think the living world should be bundled into the expansions or at the very least it should be bundled into the Deluxe and Ultimate editions with no additional costs added.

I know that you never have to pay for living world (a point I bring up constantly when arguing against pro subfee requests)
But it is still a part of the game that some do find annoying and/or time consuming to obtain that way.

I have mentioned several times in the past that I have real world friends who give up on Gw2 years ago because of the living world structure.
They simply don't have the time to farm gold to unlock all of it and they are not in the financial situation to just pay out for 2 expansions and 4 years of DLC content just to experience the story.
Not to mention the absence and unplayability of the first LW season also puts them off as well.

They like the game and really enjoyed playing it when they did but they can't deal with how the story is structured out and ultimately broken by missing content, they feel like they are being punished for coming into the game late and that ultimately makes them not want to come back to Gw2
And I definitely see where they are coming from when they say that.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[Healix.5819]

Most people never got to experience season 1, so the broken story is normal. If they were ever going to fix it, it would have been during season 1 when they decided to launch in China, but instead they had them jump straight into season 2.

Realistically, they'll just keep pushing forwards. Avoiding this problem is as simple as killing everyone off in EoD and starting over with a new campaign.

[Obtena.7952]

21 hours ago, LittleSoftTail.8405 said:

Yeah, it just... frustrates me. GW2's story may not be great, but it would be really kittening nice if I didn't need to fork over an extra $60+ dollars for DLC that should be optional but isn't. It's, honestly, kind of a kitten move and needs to keep being addressed until it annoys the devs enough to change it.

While I agree it's a massive mis-step that we don't have LS1 to play through, the story IS still accessible, just not as playable content. 

So no, the DLC content IS optional and even if you think it's not, paying for it isn't unreasonable either. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[kharmin.7683]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:16 AM, LittleSoftTail.8405 said:

Being broke, all I can do is wait until the rare occaission arrives where they give away bits of it for free. Most I can afford is the expansions. Back in the day, you didn't need to buy random kitten DLC to get the full story on an expansion in MMOs.

Not sure that Anet's business model (or their stakeholders) really factor in customers who are broke and can't afford to pay them for their work and/or to keep the servers running.

[Swagger.1459]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:16 AM, LittleSoftTail.8405 said:

Well then, it would be nice if they, at least, did a recap on what happened in Living World for those who don't want to spend extra for it. Being broke, all I can do is wait until the rare occaission arrives where they give away bits of it for free. Most I can afford is the expansions. Back in the day, you didn't need to buy random kitten DLC to get the full story on an expansion in MMOs.

You could probably watch youtube to get a recap. 

 

Being unable to afford things for the game is not anyone's issue, nor should it be a reason for Anet to change their business model and monetization methods. 

 

Back in the day, I'm pretty sure you had to pay a reoccurring monthly fee for most mmos. GW2 doesn't charge a monthly fee, so be grateful. 

 

Having written that, you can still get the LW episodes for free (free meaning $0 btw) by exchanging gold to gems... Now your problem is solved. Isn't that nice of the devs to offer a method of obtaining gems for things for free, while also not charging a monthly fee? Right?  

 

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

play the game, get LW for free. Don't play it and have to pay a miniscule amount that doesnt even compare to other games monthly's/battlepasses/premium account time.

I do not see the problem with the current model. I do see the problem with entitled people who want everything for free. On a silver plate. With a band playing and fireworks.

Sorry people, grow up. The world does not work like that. Someone has to pay the devs. Someone has to pay for the servers. So ANET asks for a tiny amount of money for those who did not log in during the hot phase. 

If you want to see what a real ripoff is: Warhammer 40k. The models are extremely expansive plastic garbage. Whenever there is a new codex/edition/FAQ update, you can trash part of your minis and buy new ones.

Or World of Warcraft. Monthly subscription AND pay to win gemstore AND you have to pay for expacs that invalidate everything you have done so far.