Can-we slow down the pace of the game's combat? While we are at it, can-we talk about lack of builds and skills/traits that are viable/unviable?

[ChillyKoti.1928]

Now, first and foremost,

I am well aware I will attract a ton of negative attention and I will be called x and x thing but I took the risk and will post it anyways.

First,

I am not old, disabled, etc, (25 years old, super basic and even kinda "normal" in some ways)

I am also not a nostalgia hungry type of person.

But I used to be a part-time pvper, and even some days I was doing just that and nothing else.

It was back a bit after HoT released, (Sigil of Force was there and things like Soldier Amulet too, can you believe it?)

Now my point;

The game's combat is way too fast.

Balance is always bipolar. Either it's too busted and spammy, or we are locked to only use auto attacks.

Time to kill is way too short.

There are way too many abilities (even some on low cooldowns, either active or passive abilities) that grants,

Teleports,

Superfast dashes,

Evade frames,

Block frames,

 

And now, the next main thing,

There is the presence of skills and traits that are entirely useless and unviable. Why does it exist?

I perfectly understand that balance will never be petfect, but a DECENT one that isn't bipolar is DEFINITELY POSSIBLE, I will dare to say, objectively speaking.

 

Now, I will say a few things I particularly enjoyed back then,

-You could make almost any build viable to some extend,

Now, I know meta builds exists and will always be popular, heck It's inevitable and almost needed in a way. 

BUT It should not be the ONLY way to play.

 

Want a taste? Go into pvp as a core Warrior and use Mace and shield and I don't know, a rifle..

 Now, try to win against a Vindicator or a Mechanist.

Or even against a Ranger of any variation, or anything really.

My point beeing that, and it was not perfect by any mean back then, you could make a build with your favorite playstyle and weapons and have some degree of success (or not, it could happen).

-Combat took timing and knowledge (to an extend, cheese always existed).

 

Today I am actually stressed to go to a point to fight someone; I know it's gonna be a spam fiesta with exploding festival lights all around, the whole point covered in red circles and if I dare to engage, I am completely immobilised and cced while having lots of conditions that melts me in seconds (condi clear, break stuns and my low amount of stability included).

Oh, I needed to dodge to enter the point and another one to dodge one of their combo, well, stamina management might be an issue but it beeing the main defense of gw2, I feel I should be able to use it more, tough many meta builds that I just don't enjoy has lots of blocks and evades/teleports anyways...

And I won't mention mid point fights.

 

Conclusion,

I really wish to enjoy pvp but it seems personal player skills is no longer the way to go;

-I need to go into a website and use a build there to just have a chance to survive because there are too many skills and traits completely unviable, also weapons.

-I need to play every playstyles that I do not enjoy, in other words, play the cheese or don't pvp.

I am honestly confused to be honest.

I would love to enjoy pvp again, any tips are welcome but it will never fix the main problems of the game.

I won't enjoy to always change playstyles to playstyles to find the next cheese to play after the balance patch.

-Stats are insignifiant for the most part lately, I could use Avatar Amuley, rune of the monk and transference sigil on a guardian and the healing is only increased by a small bit (included the lack of defensive options to defend against the focusing ennemy team you will have on you.)

 

Make simple playstyles decent again, make timing matters more. 

Not spam all the time in a build, and be locked to only auto in the other.

 

I don't understand the bias of promoting assassin-like builds, or aoe chaos mage builds if you see the picture. Sure, Warriors DID had a nice moment at some point but again, bipolarity, either full cheese or full unviable. Why...

I am unable to enjoy pvp again. Even the training npcs are a pain to fight with my very high cooldowns and low power from what I used to enjoy.

My only saving grace is I enjoy the pve aspect of the game even if I am restricted to play only with friends because pve does suffer from "only meta or unviable" tough to a lesser extend.

 

P.s. Horribly sorry for the huge text, amazing patience and thanks to those who read it.

P.p.s. I am fully aware to the vast negative attention I will attract and will react very minimally to replies that are not constructive.

 

Best wishes and peace.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Edge.8724
Added precision to the title.

[setdog.1592]

the best solution for you, may simply be to play a bunker build.  that way you can survive and the game will seem dreadfully slow to all your opponents.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, Edge.8724 said:

Now my point;

The game's combat is way too fast.

Time to kill is way too short.

Balance is always bipolar. Either it's too busted and spammy, or we are locked to only use auto attacks.

Here, let me just do that for ya so that this is much more readable.

That probably felt like a lot more to type than it was actually.

 

Anyway, TTK and combat are at the second slowest point that they've ever been in. I say second slowest because EoD just released. Before that, they were the slowest they had ever been.

If balance truly is bipolar, then this period is something of a manic episode. It would be for the best to not encourage any self-destructive ideas balance gets in this volatile state.

1 hour ago, Edge.8724 said:

Now, I will say a few things I particularly enjoyed back then,

-You could make almost any build viable to some extend,

Now, I know meta builds exists and will always be popular, heck It's inevitable and almost needed in a way. 

BUT It should not be the ONLY way to play.

My point beeing that, and it was not perfect by any mean back then, you could make a build with your favorite playstyle and weapons and have some degree of success (or not, it could happen).

This honestly sounds more flip-flop than balance to be real. 

If you want slower TTK and slower combat then you nerf and remove build options. They've done that already; infact, they've been doing that for 2 straight years.

If you want speedy TTK and faster-paced combat you buff under or totally unused skills while for the most part keeping the current status quo around. 

1 hour ago, Edge.8724 said:

I am unable to enjoy pvp again. Even the training npcs are a pain to fight with my very high cooldowns and low power from what I used to enjoy.

Which makes this extra confusing. If your problem with PvP is high cooldowns and low power then slowing down the game even more would only exacerbate said problem, would it not?

It sounds more like you want lower CD's and speedier TTK; which, yeah. I feel you there.

[xblankk.4207]

I totally feel you, I've always thought the game could be a little slower too, but most of the community seems to feel the opposite. I've adapted and learned more about fights, classes/builds, and map awareness, etc and come to appreciate where we're at a little more. 

When I came back to PvP I often felt like fights were a cluster f and kittens were just exploding everywhere and I couldn't keep up for weeks. But now(7 months later lol) that I better understand fights and classes the gameplay feels much better the more I know and can tell what is happening and understanding my role and positioning. It took awhile for me, and I'm still learning, but the effort has been worth it.

 

Anyway, I hope you find a class and build you enjoy and are able to get back into PvP. 

[Myror.7521]

I see the Problems are more going to the side damage things like random aoe or simply Aa chains. Both actually dealing insane damage. So the game end ub being spamy af instead of well timed high damage skills.

[Guirssane.7082]

The TTK is fast when you're bad and have no idea how to kite. With Feb 2020 patch TTK was slowed drastically

Edited March 13, 2022 by Guirssane.7082

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The problem with pandering to less skilled players by changing the design in ways to reduce the skill gap is that the people on top will still be on top, which means the lesser skilled player complaining will not actually get what they want. The only thing reducing the skill gap actually ends up doing is making the game more difficult to balance, due to mechanics mattering more than player skill.

This is why "noob pandering" makes sense for PvE, but not for PvP. Pandering can work in PvE because the "skill" level of the enemy in PvE is static. You cannot control for this in PvP. 

 

[Swagg.9236]

I've got a solid solution:  play Elden Ring.  Also, starting off any statement with a superfluous mini-bio to force credibility or impartiality is, if not the worst then at least top 3 worst habits that the average internet-goer has developed over the past decade.  Just say your piece.  You'll get the responses you deserve (but then again this is gw2 so there's no guarantee on any sort of discussion lmao).

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The low TTK isn't from the damage, but as the OP points out in the entire post that the game has become a spam fest; this is even moreso on the new specs. Buffs like Quickness have made this even more overwhelming, to the point where its possible for your entire party to be downed within seconds.

 

My enemies should be people that challenge me, not pinatas I break open to get candy.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

17 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

The problem with pandering to less skilled players by changing the design in ways to reduce the skill gap is that the people on top will still be on top, which means the lesser skilled player complaining will not actually get what they want. The only thing reducing the skill gap actually ends up doing is making the game more difficult to balance, due to mechanics mattering more than player skill.

This is why "noob pandering" makes sense for PvE, but not for PvP. Pandering can work in PvE because the "skill" level of the enemy in PvE is static. You cannot control for this in PvP. 

 

I feel like the current system requires less skill than ever before. I don't know why players keep equating movement and attack speed with skill, it has nothing to do with it. Bursting is the easiest thing you can do in this game, and many classes and builds and the current speed of gameplay support that.

 

Blowing your enemy up before they react doesn't mean they're unskilled, it means that your reflexes and ability to piano all your keys fast enough to 100-0 them are better than theirs.

 

Its kind of like the old "APM=Skill" myth from RTS games.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[lotus.5672]

7 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I feel like the current system requires less skill than ever before. I don't know why players keep equating movement and attack speed with skill, it has nothing to do with it. Bursting is the easiest thing you can do in this game, and many classes and builds and the current speed of gameplay support that.

 

Blowing your enemy up before they react doesn't mean they're unskilled, it means that your reflexes and ability to piano all your keys fast enough to 100-0 them are better than theirs.

 

Its kind of like the old "APM=Skill" myth from RTS games.

Thats some nice mental gymnastics right there

[Pleurodesed.7625]

I completely agree with the game being too fast.

I have the feeling the game has been consistently watered down since the release of HoT. I believe this was in purpose, to cater to the more "traditional" MMORPG players.

 

Maybe my memory fails me, but I remember struggling in caduceus manor the first few couple of times when one of the bosses had sort of low health and did that whirly whirl thing after the pull and wiped anyone who wasn't careful enough.

I also remember scarlet and "Wooo epic massive scale choochootrain" which made me abandon PvE altogether.

 

Before I used to have highest mobility on guardian over most classes (permaswiftness on staff wow!) and bait heartseeker meme thieves on retaliation to lower their health so I'd finish them off with a burst. Condi cleansing was selective and I even remember choosing WHEN to drop those 4 seconds of protection.

Now I just roll my face on the keyboard because unused skill is wasted skill. Pump those boons. Pump those cleanses.

I just chased on willbender with someone a spellbreaker who'd run in circles in the camp preventing cap. You'd think 25% extra speed plus swiftness plus multiple leaps plus immobilize on both scepter and offhand sword and pull on greatsword would stop him, right?

Or what about staff mirages which are pretty much invulnerable while pumping every single condi there is on you? Not that it really matters since I can just cleanse them all as fast. There's no "oh he's vulnerable to stun between those two attacks, maybe I can immo stun and burst 2 times to kill him, but it'll leave me vulnerable to his thing because I used the leap to get closer". He'll just have 2+ stunbreaks up his sleeve. Just like me.

 

This game has turned into a spammy mess. It's evident by the uselessness of some things which remained the same. Just look at guardian hammer. It used to be SUPER effective. Now it's worthless because it has remained just as slow while everything else is on steroids. Nevermind that, banish can be instantly stunbroke and ring of warding is waltzed through with so much stability available.

 

If this keeps up we'll end up with multiple stacks of aegis, rotatable invulnerability to condis and uncleansable condis.

[Telgum.6071]

I prefer fast combat over bunker meta, by far. Everyone having infinite boon duration + survivability tools while also vomiting conditions so the foe with lower sustain or condition cleanse is the first one who dies...

They took celestial amulet down for a reason, because stat stacking is OP and it was being abused by bunkers. They should do the same with celestial stats in WvW.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Telgum.6071

[Bazsi.2734]

TTK is too long. Under the assumptions that the overperforming EoD problem-children get nerfbatted back into their rooms, we're one minor balance patch past the slowest meta we had in years(if not ever).
So a hard pass on slowing the game down. If I wanted something slower I'd play something with GCD-s and stationary casting.

[Gundam Style.8495]

No, get better. Also, put your focus on the broken EOD specs if you want to make balance suggestions, but other than that, the factor that makes the game seem fast is your lack of brain speed.

[coro.3176]

This is what gameplay used to be like. This is slow combat.

I think that era was better. Fights were more of a chess match, where small mistakes added up over time to cost you the fight.

Currently, it's more like a very intense shootout, where each player trades burst with the opponent and hope yours kills them before theirs kills you. So yeah, TTK is still too short.

[Bazsi.2734]

4 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

This is what gameplay used to be like. This is slow combat.

I think that era was better. Fights were more of a chess match, where small mistakes added up over time to cost you the fight.

Currently, it's more like a very intense shootout, where each player trades burst with the opponent and hope yours kills them before theirs kills you. So yeah, TTK is still too short.

I checked the time of the upload, this was from the time where quickness was an irremovable 100% attack speed buff. Warriors oneshot you with a bullscharge+100blades+eviscerate combo. Thieves autoattacked you to death within 2-3 seconds.
Celestial wasn't even added to the game yet, this was the first era of meme oneshots... your video and comment is mighty misleading.

[coro.3176]

6 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I checked the time of the upload, this was from the time where quickness was an irremovable 100% attack speed buff. Warriors oneshot you with a bullscharge+100blades+eviscerate combo. Thieves autoattacked you to death within 2-3 seconds.
Celestial wasn't even added to the game yet, this was the first era of meme oneshots... your video and comment is mighty misleading.

Not at all. Just because there *could* be meme one shots did not mean they were common, or even good. Also, no one was hitting back-to-back 10k attacks (which harbinger currently does pretty easily). 10k was unheard of. *maybe* a thief could do that kind of damage ONCE if the stars aligned. No, that was an era where 4k was considered a big hit.

[Nimbus Nomad.1237]

The mobility creep has sped the game up way too much. Anet please make larger pvp maps. 

[Lucentfir.7430]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:30 AM, coro.3176 said:

Not at all. Just because there *could* be meme one shots did not mean they were common, or even good. Also, no one was hitting back-to-back 10k attacks (which harbinger currently does pretty easily). 10k was unheard of. *maybe* a thief could do that kind of damage ONCE if the stars aligned. No, that was an era where 4k was considered a big hit.

That era you speak of had high damage spikes back in the day when game used to run on straight % crit damage berserk stats instead of the ferocity version we have now which is a converter stat like precision. People back then used to build tanky af ( so many people running copy pasta AH guardian builds too) because a lot of people didn't know how to play well, the ones that did though normally ran burst builds, which were able to explode people for absurd numbers if they ate the combo. Power Mesmer existed, Medi guard existed, Full Zerker Axe/GS  Warrior existed, Power Necro /w lich. kitten I still remember the one time I got bodied by Doctor Beetus back then in WvW, a well known(at least back then) Static Discharge/mine field engi, which funny enough that combo got simplified to just hitting nade barrage these current days, but yeah S/D Engi existed back then, even though there was the much easier spam condi nade/bomb kit build at the time. 



 Just make Gw2:Classic already so people can live in the past, like every thing was hunky dory back in the day, the real pinnacle of the game 'skillful' gameplay. The only time a lot of these people preaching about core times to have fun is when everything is big dung compared to what they play .  Fun facts for some newer people that weren't there to witness olden core times. 

-Revenant did not exist.
-Expertise and Concentration did not exist
-Culling, where invisible targets would render after 1-2 second of actually being revealed.
-Most damaging conditions used to be duration based instead of intensity based.
-Torment did not exist
-Confusion and bleeds were the only conditions that used to stack intensity and capped at 25 Stacks. 
-Condition cleanse was severely limited unless your class had ways to manage them(I can still remember how many engis cried about necro being OP)
-Chaos Armor had no ICD back then.
-Confusion could one shot on action use if it got moderate stacks.
-Blind used to just AA or any action into the air to take it
-Ferocity didn't exist back then, it was straight crit damage 
-Trait system used to be a point investment system for particular traits in lines via 30/x/x/x/x system, and depending on the line gave you very specific stat increases based on what the line was about. 
-  builds like Turret Bunker Engi with crit and condition immune turrets, , Cele core ele(a reason why might got nerfed,also had some really dumb potential, like actually escaping wvw zergs solo because their cooldowns were really low), while pretty much being unkillible except for the occasional confusion mesmer), Zoo necro(We saw that return didn't we?) 

There's plenty more but that's just what comes to mind when I recall playing in the core days. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Lucentfir.7430

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Op u do realize the reason build diversity has been gutted, traits ruined/deleted and skills nerfed to near uselessness is in large part to players like u who keep asking for a slower paced combat in a game designed to be fast paced, please think about what ur asking before making threads.

[Spellhunter.9675]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Op u do realize the reason build diversity has been gutted, traits ruined/deleted and skills nerfed to near uselessness is in large part to players like u who keep asking for a slower paced combat in a game designed to be fast paced, please think about what ur asking before making threads.

Do you realize build diversity is low because anet doesn't want or can't balance properly? Do you realize build diversity was lower before feb 20 patch when the game was "faster"? Do you realize the game was not designed to be fast paced in it's core? In vanilla there wasn't million blinks on every spec, there wasn't permaswiftness/permasuperspeed on everyone etc.

[Lethion.8745]

I agree with useless traits. Especially in Mesmer there are so many useless traits. Like not bad but completely useless that you will never pick in any game mode. Most of them are results of past nerfs and unfortunetly Anet is tend to nerf a thing and completely forget about it. It feels like we have been rotating between same 3 metas in every game mode for last couple of years. They really need to start doing buffs in addition to nerfs because nerfs just moves the next strongest build to the meta. With buffs  to some forgotten traits we might actually start seing some fresh and new builds in meta.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

54 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Do you realize build diversity is low because anet doesn't want or can't balance properly? Do you realize build diversity was lower before feb 20 patch when the game was "faster"? Do you realize the game was not designed to be fast paced in it's core? In vanilla there wasn't million blinks on every spec, there wasn't permaswiftness/permasuperspeed on everyone etc.

I agree with ur statements regarding anets lack of ability with regards to balancing but u are flat out wrong about gw2 not being designed for fast paced combat, sry anyone who takes a good look at gw2 combat mechanics, skill design and the combats over all feel can easily see that gw2 was designed with fast combat in mind.

[Spellhunter.9675]

18 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

u are flat out wrong about gw2 not being designed for fast paced combat, sry anyone who takes a good look at gw2 combat mechanics, skill design and the combats over all feel can easily see that gw2 was designed with fast combat in mind.

Then why there were heal, downstate and defensive amulets originally?