Since the only good dodge option was gutted

[lotus.5672]

Can we just have 2 regular dodges now please? I just want to play gs with my rev without feeling like gimping myself with this 1 dodge bs

[Telgum.6071]

Double dodge is how this should've been from start. They could've just made a single, more interesting legend which main boon was fury or might and the current greatsword skill set.

But no, they needed to reinvent the wheel and make an inconsistent dual legend and the entire specialization revolve around the single dodge.

[Ephyr.2175]

Exactly 1 dodge is not enough. Especially since it seems to cover a shorter distance than using the 2 dodges available on other specializations.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm going to be "that guy," and say Saint's Shield was way too strong.  Healing for 6.2k every dodge was really good, and made the Vindicators I fought in WvW nigh immortal.  Healing for 3.5k, while not as strong, is still pretty good.  For comparison, Elementalists have the trait Flow Like Water, which heals for 478 when dodging an attack, with an internal cooldown of 10 seconds.  

[Master Ketsu.4569]

One of the Grandmasters could be reworked to give 2 dodges back. Since Saints shield has proven itself "problematic", it's probably the best candidate to be reworked this way. Nerf the healing and barrier down an additional 75% ( Would need to be more than 50% nerf due to vigor and endurance regen on the spec ), reduce the evade duration to 1s, it no longer increases the radius, but you then get two dodges and a normal endurance bar. Basically massively nerf the trait in all other aspects but give it 2 dodge.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm going to be "that guy," and say Saint's Shield was way too strong.  Healing for 6.2k every dodge was really good, and made the Vindicators I fought in WvW nigh immortal.  Healing for 3.5k, while not as strong, is still pretty good.  For comparison, Elementalists have the trait Flow Like Water, which heals for 478 when dodging an attack, with an internal cooldown of 10 seconds.  

Agreed. I will also be that guy. 

[lotus.5672]

4 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm going to be "that guy," and say Saint's Shield was way too strong.  Healing for 6.2k every dodge was really good, and made the Vindicators I fought in WvW nigh immortal.  Healing for 3.5k, while not as strong, is still pretty good.  For comparison, Elementalists have the trait Flow Like Water, which heals for 478 when dodging an attack, with an internal cooldown of 10 seconds.  

Theres no denying the heal was way too strong, but at least to me it was the only thing that made the spec bearable to play and why Im asking for normal dodges now, this 1 dodge feels so awkward and kitten to play, you dont even use it to dodge stuff, it became part of the rotation to do dmg if you take the dmg option, and its bad at even that cause its so telegraphed and doesnt even have full evade frames through the entire animation

[Buran.3796]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm going to be "that guy," and say Saint's Shield was way too strong.  Healing for 6.2k every dodge was really good, and made the Vindicators I fought in WvW nigh immortal.  Healing for 3.5k, while not as strong, is still pretty good.  For comparison, Elementalists have the trait Flow Like Water, which heals for 478 when dodging an attack, with an internal cooldown of 10 seconds.  

   What are you talking about? The heal and barrier in PvP were exactly 3099, and THE SAME in WvW (with full damage stats, aka: berserker, viper, grieving, etc.). IF anyone was getting 6.2k then He was running minstrel cleric or some similar crap which means that his weapon attacks would do no damage at all (and EVEN then, I don't believe that numbers, taking in consideration that with the new patch ANet BUFFED the healing power coeficients and still you need 1000 heal power to recover the 1361 heal points the jump lost -so even in FULL CLERIC with Monk runes AND the current  buffed coeficients you won't be able to heal 6.2K HP in a single dodge- ).

   Again, I must remark that the healing was never 6.2k; was 3.1k and now is chopped to 1738, which without dedicated traits and sigils to proc buff your vigor (which of course means dealing less damage) at 100 endurance unit cost means that you need 20 seconds to get a new dodge, and that puts the default "healing" from jumps at the astonishing number of 86,9 HP x second  (around the same as the mango pie consummable).

Edited March 16, 2022 by Buran.3796

[ArthurDent.9538]

44 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   What are you talking about? The heal and barrier in PvP were exactly 3099, and THE SAME in WvW (with full damage stats, aka: berserker, viper, grieving, etc.). IF anyone was getting 6.2k then He was running minstrel cleric or some similar crap which means that his weapon attacks would do no damage at all (and EVEN then, I don't believe that numbers, taking in consideration that with the new patch ANet BUFFED the healing power coeficients and still you need 1000 heal power to recover the 1361 heal points the jump lost -so even in FULL CLERIC with Monk runes AND the current  buffed coeficients you won't be able to heal 6.2K HP in a single dodge- ).

   Again, I must remark that the healing was never 6.2k; was 3.1k and now is chopped to 1738, which without dedicated traits and sigils to proc buff your vigor (which of course means dealing less damage) at 100 endurance unit cost means that you need 20 seconds to get a new dodge, and that puts the default "healing" from jumps at the astonishing number of 86,9 HP x second  (around the same as the mango pie consummable).

By 6k he meant the sum of healing + barrier. I would have assumed that was obvious.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

The dodge nerfs in WvW are honestly justified.  Both Death Drop and Saint's Shield were both overtuned in terms of damage and healing, respectively.  Death Drop was absurd, especially alongside the pre-nerfed Eternity's Requiem.  Was an easy one or two shot against many enemies. 

As for the one dodge, the spec has tons of ways to avoid damage in WvW, it just requires using a bit of brain power.  Energy Sigil + Energy Meld + Shiro's Riposting Shadows (not all 3 of these at once, obviously) give you frequent dodges for either offense or defense.  This doesn't even include the other defensive options rev has with Alliance/Shiro, like GS4, S/S 3 or Staff 3/5, Viktor battle dance.  The spec is all about the active damage mitigation and quickly killing your enemies.  It's a glassy spec with high damage that requires active gameplay to get the most out of, even more-so than the previous Rev elites. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[captrowdy.9561]

14 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   What are you talking about? The heal and barrier in PvP were exactly 3099, and THE SAME in WvW (with full damage stats, aka: berserker, viper, grieving, etc.). IF anyone was getting 6.2k then He was running minstrel cleric or some similar crap which means that his weapon attacks would do no damage at all (and EVEN then, I don't believe that numbers, taking in consideration that with the new patch ANet BUFFED the healing power coeficients and still you need 1000 heal power to recover the 1361 heal points the jump lost -so even in FULL CLERIC with Monk runes AND the current  buffed coeficients you won't be able to heal 6.2K HP in a single dodge- ).

   Again, I must remark that the healing was never 6.2k; was 3.1k and now is chopped to 1738, which without dedicated traits and sigils to proc buff your vigor (which of course means dealing less damage) at 100 endurance unit cost means that you need 20 seconds to get a new dodge, and that puts the default "healing" from jumps at the astonishing number of 86,9 HP x second  (around the same as the mango pie consummable).

Bro he is talking about the combined heal and barrier. Which was in fact overpowered in pvp. 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

ANet made the correct choice with the nerf to the heal dodge: nerfing it at base value while still enabling support builds to profit from it to an impactful degree by buffing the coefficients. Nothing should ever give you that much sustain at base value except for your own personal healing skill. The middle dodge is still good if you build it correctly and the prot it offers will still offer you sustain. IMO with the heal dodge nerfed to a healthy degree, it will also be easier to balance the elite spec. I hate to say it, but the heal dodge was a big bandaid to the elite spec that covered up some of its flaws. With the sustain nerf and the GS5 (over?)nerf, hopefully the issues Vindi faces will become more apparent. 

[Buran.3796]

On 3/16/2022 at 6:31 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Healing for 6.2k every dodge was really good, and made the Vindicators I fought in WvW nigh immortal. 

   Everyone roaming in WvW is either "immortal" (running celestial/trailblazer builds with ustatin traits) or able to disengage from any fight (insane mobility and/or stealth). This is a random figth from las Saturday between me and a Bladesworn; (so far most of my fights at the time vs BS, Untamed, Mechanist, etc. were extremely long, no matter the result; the exception were Necros: any kind of them crushed me in matter of seconds):

 

 

@captrowdy: my fault.

   Anyway, I'll remark that 3099 heal + 3099 barrier weren't the numbers from Vindicator in the Saint jump at the second beta: ANet tuned up those for the four and last beta because they normalized the endurance cost across all the dodge-jumps to 100, which means that they doubled the previous cost of the Saint. Now Vindicators keep paying x2 the cost but lost the compensations.

   Not like I care anymore: my work with the class in PvP and WvW is done and I returned to the vastly superior Herald and Renegade builds. I'm farming Vindis in PvP like crazy...

[Catchyfx.5768]

I was trying boondodge, but sustain is very low, even if I play perfect, alliance heals doesnt help either.(im running shiro alliance, so im with the worst ren heals, but withour shiro breakstun is mandatory for me). Herald better.

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

 

   Not like I care anymore: my work with the class in PvP and WvW is done and I returned to the vastly superior Herald and Renegade builds. I'm farming Vindis in PvP like crazy...

You can stand in gs5 it is 2k no crit or 4-5k crit 😂 meamwile i can go 10k arcs on my warriors gs every 6 seconds. Balance

 

Little rant. When cmc and dudes took math guy to confirm that indeed two legends are more then one, they maybe should take him to dodge talk too. You know 2 are more then 1

Edited March 18, 2022 by Catchyfx.5768
Salt relieved

[Gwaihir.1745]

On 3/16/2022 at 4:37 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

But no, they needed to reinvent the wheel 

 

This is the hill anet will die on. Instead of just taking the easy win and calling vindicator dragoon with some massive aerial attacks and a spear weapon transform, they went down this road. Instead of taking the winning path and just giving guardian a paladin spec, we get willybender. 

They are so dedicated to not taking winning path when it is handed to them on a silver platter. Now they have a balancing nightmare they will never address (vindicator), traits that dont work(particularly willbender since its passives are removed and its core traitlines modify the passives), and are doing jack kittening kitten for competitive game modes.

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Gwaihir.1745

[Silesium.5623]

the moment they nerf gs5 in competive modes this spec is done for, gs5 was burst dmg but slow animation easy to dodge now its max dmg 4-5k if if if u hit. I my self dont run alliance in wvw or pvp as shiro and jalin do better job but sinc last nerft to heal trait and gs5 this space is not worth use as is close combat have 0 buff generator like other classes (stability/agis/resistance) to make it survive all cc and condi also nerf to sigil make it even worse and we all know they do that cos of sigil of energy. Every update they trash rev to ground nerfing or removing staff with out proper explenation. They moment player find that something work/synergise anet nerf it or remove it. Some example : Hammer nerf to ground / shiro quicknes+superspead removed/ added windup to staff/Soulcleave's Summit added interval/Call to Anguish change from pullsing area to aoe pull cc/Removed sigil from legend swap/slow down off sword/and there is match more.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

On 3/17/2022 at 8:45 PM, Gwaihir.1745 said:

 

This is the hill anet will die on. Instead of just taking the easy win and calling vindicator dragoon with some massive aerial attacks and a spear weapon transform, they went down this road. Instead of taking the winning path and just giving guardian a paladin spec, we get willybender. 

They are so dedicated to not taking winning path when it is handed to them on a silver platter. Now they have a balancing nightmare they will never address (vindicator), traits that dont work(particularly willbender since its passives are removed and its core traitlines modify the passives), and are doing jack kittening kitten for competitive game modes.

 

It's in the culture of game developers as a subset of all people involved with creative work to do exactly that. Why take the simple, efficient path when you can reinvent the wheel and leave your mark on the world? Sometimes that yields exciting results, often though it just causes more headaches.

Edited March 19, 2022 by nosleepdemon.1368

[Esufer.8762]

43 minutes ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

> Eternity's Requiem: This skill will no longer create guaranteed impact areas underneath enemies who are in stealth.
Honestly, I think there is a strong bias among devs towards revenants.
Thieves can still spam stealth for as long as they want. Harbringers still oneshot. Any necro spec can still run and spam staff skills without facing target, while Forced Engagement got nerfed range and we have to face targets now.

Fk you anet, I am not going back to shitherald boonbot to play it another 2 years.


 

Don't forget stuff like rangers and engis being able to 100-0 people in WvW no problem. 'Nade barrage is fine, right?

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

25 minutes ago, Esufer.8762 said:

Don't forget stuff like rangers and engis being able to 100-0 people in WvW no problem. 'Nade barrage is fine, right?

yeap and DHs can now pull revenants out of vindicator's dodge

[Catchyfx.5768]

After how many years they come up with sigil legend swap is bug... dont hope for buffs bois, this is there from the start and took them eternity to find out.

 

Even new warrior is able to fish about 20k in few very quick strikes, with 10k slash.Untamed omegalol, harbinger same kitten. Eternity is telegraphed and deals same dmg on 20cd as #1 skill in my granade kit lol, i can spam this kitten for days with no icd no tell where the nades lands.

 

Fk them. Atleast they are curing my addiction to this game.

[Kulvar.1239]

Vindicator has nothing to do with FF Dragoon, you'll need to get out of this delusion.

I play FF14 on the side and never thought the Vindicator had something remotely alike to the dragoon.

[Gwaihir.1745]

On 3/19/2022 at 8:54 PM, Kulvar.1239 said:

I play FF14 on the side and never thought the Vindicator had something remotely alike to the dragoon.

 

Vindicators dodge is literally the same animation as Kain's jump in FF IV.

And no one is saying it is. We are saying anet should take the win when it is handed to them rather than shoehorning stuff that doesnt work.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3.5k healing with Healing power scaling is jusssst enough to [Redacted], which I have been upset about for upwards of a year now in pvp.

Not as stronk as healing for 6k  on assassins/sinister but ill take it. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Thornwolf.9721]

Just make the elite skill for both the two dodges, that is for huge impact and make it work like an on target version of shadowfall from specter? Like I don't understand why they need to dabble with the dodge mechanic. You'd think after mirage and the cluster it was through its entire and current life-span that they'd of learned a thing or two... guess not.

[wayneericgouin.9371]

Best dodge option? Death drop? No sir, it was the weakest because it literally only did damage. In terms of overall usability it was the least robust of the 3. Semantics perhaps but still..