3 Elite specs is enough. We shouldn't get more. Time for something new.

[Mungrul.9358]

I've always thought that Elite Specs were a brave, but flawed attempt to bring some of GW1's innovative dual-class system in to GW2.

 

Ultimately, I feel it was always going to result in power-creep, devaluing core specs and any Elite Spec that preceded the most recent one. And they would have been better served doing things the old GW1 way, simply introducing more skills with each expansion / living world episode.

Not in the excessive way that each expandalone extended the amount of skills available in GW1, but maybe 4 skills per traitline per expansion.

In addition, adding additional weapon skills could have worked and also served as a way to balance loadouts beyond excessive nerfing. My idea being that each numbered skill would have alternatives available, selectable in the same way utility skills are, by clicking the arrow above the skill. They could also have used a system like this to address the issue of weapons being pigeon-holed in to either power OR control OR condi.

 

As for introducing Monk as a new classs, to be honest, I'm of the opinion that Guardian should never have replaced it in the first place.

It devalued warrior; why choose a non-magical warrior when you can choose a magical one that has a lot of the same weapons while at the same time bringing HUGE amounts of utility and self-sustain?

And it has become clear over time that ArenaNet struggle to balance Guardian, with it or its Elite Specs consistently topping profession balance trees since release.

It's the Monk, but with none of its weaknesses, and all of Warrior's strengths.

[Alchimist.4738]

I wouldn't mind if they skip one set of e-specs next expansion in order to add new weapons (including new weapon types such as land spear), traits (a fourth choice for all grand-master) , and new skills to core classes and even older e-specs. It'd revitalize builds for the entire class, and not just bring a new subclass,  and some classes such as engineer could really use more weapon options.

 

 

[mindcircus.1506]

19 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Ultimately, I feel it was always going to result in power-creep, devaluing core specs and any Elite Spec that preceded the most recent one

In what way does Untamed devalue Soulbeast?
In what way does Holosmith devalue Scrapper?
Are you really going to argue that Willbender devalues Firebrand?

While it's clear that the Elite Spec system does indeed represent a direct upgrade over core specs, the idea that Spellbreaker's design is a power creep to devalue Berserker seems pretty far off the mark to me.
 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

What I'd like to see in the next expansion is Elite Specs that can only be combined with another Elite + Core traitline. So you'd get the versatility of even more class archetypes but further reduced build functionality.

 

For example, you could equip Reaper for Necromancer in 3rd slot, then take another Spec in 2nd slot that gives access to a different new weapon (besides Greatsword) and utility skill set, and finally a Core traitline in 1st slot.

 

Your 3rd slot spec would always be the one your F# skills come from, including the option to put your Core traitline there or whatever order you prefer to create various combinations (e.g a Dragonhunter with Traps but with Core F# skills instead), but you could never use more than one traitline from any spec.

 

It sounds bad, but other games have done something similar quite successfully.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Jessixia.5780]

Like someone mentioned above somewhere, personally I'd be over the moon if classes like monk we're introduced. Was my favorite class in gw1, would buy a char slot in an instant If that was an option. Can imagine new classes probs are alot of work though since they probs like to have the same number of specialisations since gathering hero points is a big part of progression, but still, I'd love to hold out hope on that one.

[mindcircus.1506]

2 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

What I'd like to see in the next expansion is Elite Specs that can only be combined with another Elite + Core traitline. So you'd get the versatility of even more class archetypes but further reduced build functionality.

 

For example, you could equip Reaper for Necromancer in 3rd slot, then take another Spec in 2nd slot that gives access to a different new weapon (besides Greatsword) and utility skill set, and finally a Core traitline in 1st slot.

 

Your 3rd slot spec would always be the one your F# skills come from, including the option to put your Core traitline there or whatever order you prefer to create various combinations (e.g a Dragonhunter with Traps but with Core F# skills instead), but you could never use more than one traitline from any spec.

 

It sounds bad, but other games have done something similar quite successfully.

With your system I could:
Create a Mechanist that permas Alacrity (Which only requires the mechanist trait line) and has access to gyros and the traits that will perma Quickness. from Scrapper
Create a Ranger that would have access to Oppressive Superiority, Furious Strength, 5 Stacks of Ferocious Symbiosis, Remorseless and Farsighted all at once.
Run a Vindicator with Forerunner of Death and Leviathan Strength stacked with Forceful Persistence while still being able to use Battle Scars.
Have you considered what the outcome of Mirage+Virtuoso really is?

And you see no issue with this because someone (you) wants to run Greatsword on Scourge or Axe on Willbender?
Yes it sounds bad.
But I will bite.... name one other game that has "done something similar quite successfully."

[Asum.4960]

5 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I've always thought that Elite Specs were a brave, but flawed attempt to bring some of GW1's innovative dual-class system in to GW2.

 

Ultimately, I feel it was always going to result in power-creep, devaluing core specs and any Elite Spec that preceded the most recent one. And they would have been better served doing things the old GW1 way, simply introducing more skills with each expansion / living world episode.

Not in the excessive way that each expandalone extended the amount of skills available in GW1, but maybe 4 skills per traitline per expansion.

In addition, adding additional weapon skills could have worked and also served as a way to balance loadouts beyond excessive nerfing. My idea being that each numbered skill would have alternatives available, selectable in the same way utility skills are, by clicking the arrow above the skill. They could also have used a system like this to address the issue of weapons being pigeon-holed in to either power OR control OR condi.

I don't entirely disagree with that, and things like selectable weapon skills is also something I've been suggesting since before HoT as option. 

But you have to consider that Elite Specs with their Names and Theme are exponentially more marketable than just some extra skills and Traits without that overarching theme/package/brand. 

 

With that in mind and considering that ship having sailed, I do think the Elite Spec system can work - and well so into the future, just that the current Trait design and general balance doesn't support it well in achieving the desired variety and choice. 

[Trejgon.9367]

I am still waiting for a shield-wielding ranger espec.

And dual shield guardian espec.

 

Trying to tie especs to any role trinity is flawed, and unimaginative.

[KeoLegend.5132]

19 hours ago, Artyport.2084 said:

I'm hoping they do armor specialization.

each armor set will add 1 new weapon across each class+ and elite and three options to choose from as a "super master trait*

 

further specializing each spec we currently have.
 

example: daredevil

All types of thieves gain access to the greatsword when equipping heavy armor

when daredevils put on heavy armor they become 

Shonin: agile heavy armor wearers that slice through enemies. 

all medium focused thieves gain longbows

Daredevils maintain there name in medium armor but gain access to a bow dodging and shooting long range arrows at their enemies 

 

all light armor thieves gain an offhand focus

a daredevil in light armor becomes a dancer and its traits allow it to supper allies while dancing across the battlefield 

 

 

So in essence character will focus on a specific armor type and based on that armor type it would further customize the spec. Light animation changes could happen like making all of the daredevils jumps dances 

 

daredevil: shonin(heavy)daredevil(medium)dancer(light)

 

Specter:

Darknight(heavy)Specter(Medium)warlock(light)

 

Deadeye

Gravedigger(heavy)deadeye(medium)shadowhunter(light)

 

 

 

I hope not. This will kill class identity and turn everybody into a gigantic mess

[Teratus.2859]

Honestly I'd like to see weapon expansion more than new elite specs going forward.

What I mean by that is customisable weapon skills, being able to choose between a mobility skill or a defensive skill, power damage or condition damage, high damage melee skills or weaker but safer ranged skills etc.

Atm you're kinda stuck with the weapons you have and the skills they have and that can feel quite limiting at times.
For example Core Ranger still lacks a decent main hand condition weapon.
But what if you could choose a different auto line for MH Sword? sacrifice a bit of it's power damage and gain the ability to stack the poison condition or bleeds.

What if Necros could choose between the current ranged axe skills or replace them with melee axe skills that do more base damage?

What if Warriors could choose between a set of power based Greatsword skills and Condition based Greatsword skills?

I don't know how many people have noticed this but even to this day there is not a single class in Gw2 that uses a Greatsword skill set that focuses on condition damage instead of power damage.
The closest is Reaper which is still a power damage focused skillset.
The only damaging condition element is if you run the Deathly Chill trait so you can gain bleeds from Chills.. but that's it, that's the closest one.

We've had plenty of elite specs that add new traits and add new utility skills, weapons and abilities.
I wanna see the other side of the skill bar get more attention this time.
I wanna see more customisation on weapon skills beyond just adding new weapons.

[draxynnic.3719]

Hard disagree. By the OP's logic, we should just have three professions and call it a day.
Control hasn't really been a role in and of itself for a while. Meanwhile, the categories of DPS and support have a lot of subcategories. Is your DPS ranged or melee, condi or power, single-target oriented or area-oriented? Support can mean heal, alacrity, quickness, might and fury, protective boons, barrier, or effects that simply prevent enemy attacks from landing in the first place. Even if a profession already has a "support elite", it could still have an elite that provides a different form of support, or a melee-oriented elite could stand alongside a ranged-oriented elite. And that's without even going into ancillary considerations like mobility, sustain (and various forms that sustain can take, and so on).
Furthermore, ArenaNet said right at the beginning that the intent was for different professions to be about representing different playstyles rather than different roles. The same logic can be applied to elite specialisations... in fact, arguably it already has been (for instance, one of the criticisms about bladesworn is that it performs much the same role as power berserker, but it goes about it in a very different way). So a new elite specialisation doesn't really even need to offer a role the class doesn't already have (although with only a few per profession, it's better if it does) as long as it offers a distinct new playstyle.

This is a large part of why Catalyst gets as much flack as it does. It doesn't have a new playstyle, outside of the new weapon it's basically just core ele with a buff field. And even after this week's patch the new weapon is still mostly oriented towards melee, although I think it does now succeed at being better in the 300-600 range region than dagger.

There's still a lot of potential for new ideas, and hopefully the next set won't be as hurried as this one. 

[Obtena.7952]

Disagree with OP ... 

the only thing holding Anet back from more especs is just their imagination and access to lore. The more especs we get, the more it will be evident that especs do not exist ONLY to fill roles or do something better than anyone else or whatever other balance principle you want to apply to them. 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[frareanselm.1925]

I think this shouldnt stop until all the classes were able to use all the weapons.

I need my thief to wear a greatsword!!! Or a light armor class with a longbow.

[oscuro.9720]

13 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

The elite spec system already expresses main/class subclass.
Class        +     Subclass    =    Name
Engineer  +     Warrior     =    Scrapper
Guardian +    Thief           =    Willbender
Ranger     +     Warrior     =    Untamed
Warrior    +    Engineer    =    Bladesworn
Rev           +    Guardian   =    Herald
ect...
You will find the above is true for all elite specs in that they are an attempt to bring one class' play style to another class without the balance nightmare that was GW1.

What is berserker? Warrior+warrior?

[Infinity.2876]

On 3/30/2022 at 3:17 PM, Kurrilino.2706 said:

 

How someone is supposed to silently climb a roof in heavy armor is far beyond me.

I also see sneaking in heavy clunky armor as a challenge.

very carefully

they can possibly make greatsword agile. They don't have to make greatsword clunky they just do. For example you can reduce durations and damage and not root people in place for once.

personally eod feels almost like they ran out of ideas ( ae. New Kaineng being sparsely populated the void being a bunch of copied dragon minions etc.) and it also feels oddly rushed like they had a deadline they needed to fulfill.

all that is to say it would be alot of work to add all weapons to all classes but it would be well worth the time if they had decent ideas for all of them.

as for how they are added could be: 2 weapons per spec then add the rest of the weapons to core gradually. 

thanks for reading ( :

Edited March 31, 2022 by Infinity.2876

[Redfeather.6401]

13 hours ago, Alchimist.4738 said:

I wouldn't mind if they skip one set of e-specs next expansion in order to add new weapons (including new weapon types such as land spear), traits (a fourth choice for all grand-master) , and new skills to core classes and even older e-specs. It'd revitalize builds for the entire class, and not just bring a new subclass,  and some classes such as engineer could really use more weapon options.

That would be awesome.

[TannerSlackOff.2834]

I'd like them to rework traits entirely so you have "core" then spec into a weapon to make that weapon and utility skills better. So all core skills and elite spec skills can stay the same. for example a guardian can spec into scepter/ focus combo to become a new elite spec "cleric" which either adds new effects onto the current skills those weapons have or change the skills entirely when entering this new elite spec, while gaining new utility skills, or just make whatever utility skills fit a support role better. Also have each elite spec be designed around a very specific role.

[LeMaxZ.6298]

Honestly I don't mind it. I just wish we had more different ones

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:28 AM, DavyMcB.1603 said:

The elite specs didn't happen because anet wanted every class to fill some arbitrary fixed "roles". That's your own assumption. They are first and foremost intended as different interpretations of the base classes in lieu of getting actual new classes. These "roles" only serve as additional layers to make these elites also functionally relevant in some capacities. Anet wouldn't care less releasing 4th warrior dps spec if they want to. 

Exactly. Wow has warlock and mage for example that choose between 3 flavours of dps. Or priest that has 2 healing specs.

It works because people want variety in both thematic and playstyle. 

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:02 AM, Mungrul.9358 said:

I've always thought that Elite Specs were a brave, but flawed attempt to bring some of GW1's innovative dual-class system in to GW2.

Ultimately, I feel it was always going to result in power-creep, devaluing core specs and any Elite Spec that preceded the most recent one. And they would have been better served doing things the old GW1 way, simply introducing more skills with each expansion / living world episode.

Not in the excessive way that each expandalone extended the amount of skills available in GW1, but maybe 4 skills per traitline per expansion.

In addition, adding additional weapon skills could have worked and also served as a way to balance loadouts beyond excessive nerfing. My idea being that each numbered skill would have alternatives available, selectable in the same way utility skills are, by clicking the arrow above the skill. They could also have used a system like this to address the issue of weapons being pigeon-holed in to either power OR control OR condi.

How is that solving the problem of powercreep you mentioned? If anything, it just makes it worse, because if you keep adding to the core class, you run into two situations: either everyone does everything, or the new skills are just powercrept versions of old skills. 

At least with elite specs, they are exclusive with each other, not an additional layer on top. And the data doesn't agree with your argument, the EoD specs didn't invalidate the existing ones. And I'm not talking about Untamed that short of flopped, you see for example Harbinger and Scourge used in equal amounts. 

[Zekent.3652]

Friendly reminder that gw2 subclass system, means an entire new class on most of mmos.

There are some people that acts like gw2 subclass system is something "pretty meh" lol, and don't forget the plus of this combat system being literally the best one on mmos.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Zizekent.2398

[InsaneQR.7412]

Tbh i Would love weapon specializations if they are chugged full with e-specs.

For example: Current Mesmer GS is ranged, but with a new GS weapon specialization you can gain a new set of GS skills whoch are foe example now melee. You have to choose either one or the other but you get more options to pick.

This could also affect the role of the weapon for esample. Ranger MH sword is mainly a power weapon with evades. A new Sword specialization could make it a condi weapon with blocks instead etc.

This would open up build choices a lot, even without making more specs. Not that I am against new specs but that would still be a cool option.

Lastly, I want to add that Core specialization updates are higher on my wishlist than new specs. I would love a ranger Pet rework, making fast hands baseline for Warriors, removing energy cost from weapon skills on rev, make marks a more distributed class mechanic on necro etc.

Overall I want more choices and versatility in playstyle not necessarily current traits that work like a"non-choice" between always good and always bad.

[Bleikopf.2491]

1 hour ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Tbh i Would love weapon specializations if they are chugged full with e-specs.

For example: Current Mesmer GS is ranged, but with a new GS weapon specialization you can gain a new set of GS skills whoch are foe example now melee. You have to choose either one or the other but you get more options to pick.

This could also affect the role of the weapon for esample. Ranger MH sword is mainly a power weapon with evades. A new Sword specialization could make it a condi weapon with blocks instead etc.

This would open up build choices a lot, even without making more specs. Not that I am against new specs but that would still be a cool option.

Lastly, I want to add that Core specialization updates are higher on my wishlist than new specs. I would love a ranger Pet rework, making fast hands baseline for Warriors, removing energy cost from weapon skills on rev, make marks a more distributed class mechanic on necro etc.

Overall I want more choices and versatility in playstyle not necessarily current traits that work like a"non-choice" between always good and always bad.

Before we get so far with weapons I'd like to see a spec using offhand weapons in main hand. 

Do main hand focus already, you cowards! 

[Artyport.2084]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:15 AM, KeoLegend.5132 said:

I hope not. This will kill class identity and turn everybody into a gigantic mess

ok what’s the class identity of a Willbender have to do with guardian 

 

harbinger doesn’t even feel like a necromancer

 

ele with a hammer feels more like a shaman not an eke 

 

a light armor guardian will just feel like a priest 

a heavy armor reaper more of a darknight 

 

the base of the profession’s identity remains intact but the style will be different. Its in no way different from specializations at current. 
 

people who gatekeep are so annoying 

[Kurrilino.2706]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:39 PM, Artyport.2084 said:

thats kind of the point. 
But its not destroying its creating class fantasies.

heavy armor thieves are no longer your classic sneaky boys they are agile heavy armor warriors.

 

you can still play your version or playstyle of a thief but you might gain another option with another class. 

 

And it doesn't occur to you to play warrior then?

 

I can't speak for everyone but i would say that people play thief because of sneaky boys

and warriors because of heavy armour and swords.

 

But why even stop here?

Maybe we introduce the class "Circus Clown" to the Rangers

Instead of mastering the forces of nature, you grow up juggling rings and pins in a tent all day long.

Sure this wouldn't be your classic, roaming the nature with your pet, but you would have options.

You could still play the original Rangers