Why does Caithe outrank me as the Champion of Aurene

[Firebird Gomer.9563]

So this really bugs me.... No I am not talking for everyone.

I am (the player in general) the Commander. I am (again the player in general) Aurene's Champion. But Caithe is treated more like Aurene's Champion than we (the player in general) have ever been allowed to be. What really pisses me off is that somehow Caithe has the right to chase me (the Commander and Champion) off and I don't have the right to say no and that Caithe should rack-off instead. What pisses me off is that Caithe got Crystal Bloomed (which to me is Champion Marking) but as the Champion of Aurene I (again the player in general) gets nothing..... Not even a free skin (or even better an infusion that should Bloom us) that we should have gotten. Caithe should not have been bloomed.... We should have been.

The lore in this matter is very much broken..... If they called Caithe Champion and us just the Commander that would have been totally different and fine, but our player identity is BOTH Commander and Champion while Caithe is a dirty little egg thief that has never been held accountable.....

Think about it.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Firebird Gomer.9563

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

You're forgetting that Caithe is very much Aurene's adoptive mother, and what she is doing is being a mother taking care of a child she cares for who is not feeling well at that point in the story. The champion is also very much an adoptive parent, but that has to be a gender neutral role given that our characters can be either of those two sexes, so the nurturer role goes to Caithe. 
 

[Firebird Gomer.9563]

What did Caithe do to raise Aurene.... I can remember playing with, feeding, making toys, encouraging and correcting Aurene.... Caithe didnt do any of that..... Caithe has never once been called Champion..... (to my very bad memory). Caithe barged in and stole the egg. Caithe wasnt there during the hatching..... Only turned up after it... In fact she was told she wasn't allowed to go in... ONLY the Champion was allowed to go in...... I disagree she is an adoptive mother. She is something else.... I cant think of the word... But its very very very bad.....

 

So once again I ask why does Caithe have the right to override and kick Aurene's Champion out of Aurene's presence and why is Caithe bloomed as the Champion of Aurene when she is not..... It is broken lore

Edited April 5, 2022 by Firebird Gomer.9563

[maxwelgm.4315]

I get the feeling of what you say, and I agree with it in general. It feels a bit strange that Caithe is the one that gets "branded" by Aurene. On the one hand it would make sense if Aurene branded no one, because her bond to her friends is completely different to what EDs used to do before. On the other hand, having her brand Caithe just so she could speak to us during that one mission was very strange. We supposedly already had such a strong bond to Aurene at that point - why could she not communicate in telepathy with us already by then? Why did we not get branded instead as Champions who actually needed to communicate with Aurene the most? It seems like the devs just flat out wanted to avoid the skin change issue with that in gameplay, and also wanted to find something to do with Caithe and have her remain very important to Aurene.

 

We are only truly acting as a proper "dragon champion" during the end of the new expansion (which I will not elaborate on due to no spoiler warning on topic), and up until that point indeed it's more like being Aurene's best friend. Which again, does make a lot of sense as this emotional rather than corrupted bond to others is precisely what makes Aurene unique, but it starts to feel a bit strange with Bloomed Caithe being a thing.

[Firebird Gomer.9563]

Thanks Maxwelgm.... You added to my thought brilliantly... Whats even weirder is Aurene previously to the point of Caithe being branded (a much more accurate word, tho the minions of Aurene, for want of a better word do call themselves the crystal bloom) did actually communicate with us through visions.... So again why did Caithe need to be "branded" when we had been shown things before.... And communicated with.... If they wanted to find something to do with Caithe I could think of at least 4 things that doesnt involve her becoming a Branded Bloom.

The skin change issue really could have been done with a outfit or a infusion so people could have had a choice in the matter of if they wanted to use/wear it or not.

More broken or perhaps more correctly termed as forgotten and retconned Lore....

[celestia.3829]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You're forgetting that Caithe is very much Aurene's adoptive mother, and what she is doing is being a mother taking care of a child she cares for who is not feeling well at that point in the story. The champion is also very much an adoptive parent, but that has to be a gender neutral role given that our characters can be either of those two sexes, so the nurturer role goes to Caithe. 
 

Bit sexsist

[Telgum.6071]

It is just another hole in Aurene's plot, but technically while you were out there seeking for a way to destroy Jormag and Primordus and also tracking Balthazar, Caithe was helping the Exalted to raise her. So yeah, between that and their bond she fills some form of mother role where she understand her in ways you probably don't, the same way Glint had to express things in ways only dragons can understand, back in LWS4 during the trials. Caithe raised her and makes sure she has everything she needs, and of course she protects her alongside the Crystal Bloom. While as you fill the father role, teaching her how to fight and giving her insights about the world (call me sexist if you want I don't care).

It is this weird way Anet has to tell a story, back in the personal story you are pretty much Trahearne's bodyguard and strategist, and during Aurene's plot you are the main protagonist when that probably should be a shared spot between you and Caithe but I guess the guionists didn't want the community to develop some inner hate against Caithe like happened with Trahearne.

Just for the note, it is clear you have the full authority in the matters that concern Aurene (just under herself, of course), it is just this Crystal Bloom and Caithe being overprotective, nothing else. You are Aurene's Champion as it's seen in the last EoD episode, Caithe is more like a servant or a minion filling a role, just like Bangar was filling the role of Voice of Jormag. You wouldn't say Bangar is more important than Ryland because Jormag speaks through the first one, would you?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[Pax.3548]

2 hours ago, Firebird Gomer.9563 said:

Caithe should not have been bloomed.... We should have been.

Ehhh no, I wouldn't have liked it one bit if we've been bloomed, and I'm pretty sure a good portion of the community neither, so I'm glad Anet didn't do that, besides the final instance in EoD should have left you satisfied, I don't see Caithe enjoying what we did there.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Is just convenience, if Aurene brand "commander" for lore sake where ED always brand their champions, will be machanically problematic. Either RP radicals will complain about we are not walking around branded, or ppl who like immersion will complain about walking around branded breaking their immersion, so was just writers being wise avoiding this mess.

 

The poor Caithe, her time with Aurene are  almost offscreen, can't compare with our screentime with her, not taking "chilling" in Eye of north into account.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, celestia.3829 said:

Bit sexsist

You seem a bit confused about typical gender roles, but let me also remind you that said roles are not necessarily linked to biological sex. Grandfathers are well known for also being very nurturing. 

That said, Caithe is female, she raised Aurene where as the Exhaulted merely groomed her for her role. Caithe was there while Aurene was being raised far more than the commander. Glint might have laid Aurene's egg, but Caithe is her momma and Caithe kitten well knows it. Caithe is definitely acting in her momma role in this part of the story and not as a champion.

[Super Hayes.6890]

The point in the story where Caithe was "branded" was an intense moment where our allies were getting worked up. As Aurene hadn't developed the ability to speak on her own yet, it made sense to speak through someone to de-escalate the situation. Why Caithe and not us, that part is debatable. Obviously she is fond of Caithe too.

[Lord Korag.8439]

And yet, she has been corrupted only by the "blue" crystal magic by not-elder Aurene and not by prismatic magic of Elder Dragon. In my eyes, she is more like branded minion than a champion (and I am pretty sure Kralkatorrik would agree with me).

[Kalavier.1097]

Caithe does not outrank us lol.

 

Her "Shooing us away." was that of a friend. She held no real power there besides that of friendship. The Commander agreed because there was stuff to do and Aurene needed rest.

 

The commander has greater power and influence then Caithe does overall. Caithe merely went "Hey, Aurenes resting, now go get to doing all the other stuff you need to do so she can have a nap."

[voltaicbore.8012]

As others have noted, OP fails to account for the fact that Caithe has acted as Aurene's full-time guardian since Aurene hatched. Caithe was present for much more of Aurene's day-to-day than in a way the Commander never was.

As for why Aurene branded Caithe instead of the Commander, I remember the short story phase of HoT where we recover the egg from Caithe and end up walking around in-game with a manadatory Aurene egg backpack until we deposit the egg in Tarir. People didn't even like that short bit of visual change, I can only imagine the outcry against being branded. I think the story could have just as easily supported the Commander being the one to get branded, but a lot of people don't even like being forced to have their characters be "Commander" in the first place. Adding a Crystal Bloom branding on top of that probably wouldn't have been well received.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

She's a champion.

It's pretty clear we're THE HERALD of Aurene. That's a rank above normal champions as far as dragon minion hierarchies go. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Kalavier.1097]

12 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

She's a champion.

It's pretty clear we're THE HERALD of Aurene. That's a rank above normal champions as far as dragon minion hierarchies go. 

 

I think it'd probably be the other way around. We are constantly called her Champion, while Caithe is not.  Caithe acts as her representative(When Commander isn't around) and the head of the crystal bloom.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

2 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

I think it'd probably be the other way around. We are constantly called her Champion, while Caithe is not.  Caithe acts as her representative(When Commander isn't around) and the head of the crystal bloom.

Herald is a "sub-class" of champion, and ranks of higher importance overall. The gem store outfit is even called 'Herald of Aurene outfit'. Champions act as the 'representative' of their respective elder dragons all the time in the story. It's not something specific to a higher cast.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, Firebird Gomer.9563 said:

What did Caithe do to raise Aurene.... I can remember playing with, feeding, making toys, encouraging and correcting Aurene.... Caithe didnt do any of that....

You're right, we never see Caithe do that.

However, Caithe was with Aurene the entire time we were off galavanting in Bitterfrost Frontier, Lake Doric, Draconis Mons, Siren's Landing, and Crystal Oasis. Caithe remained with Aurene in Eye of the North after she became an Elder Dragon, and remained with Aurene during End of Dragons - agian, while we're off galavanting doing hero things.

And chances are, she did do stuff with Aurene in all those months we were never around.

 

I don't see the original argument that Caithe is "treated higher than Commander". As you yourself say:

Quote

Caithe has never once been called Champion..... (to my very bad memory).

She indeed is never called champion. We, the players, are. Caithe is not put on par to Ryland and Braham during Icebrood Saga's Champions, the Commander is. In the finale of End of Dragons, it is not Caithe but the Commander who is given a massive powerboost.

 

So by what right do you proclaim that Caithe is treated as superior?

 

The one moment where Caithe shoo'd the Commander out because the Commander was pestering an injured and recovering Aurene? The scene that was like a mother telling the other parent to just let the sick girl rest so she could recover from her illness? That isn't superiority over the Commander. At most, that's equality. The equality known as parenthood.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I think it'd probably be the other way around. We are constantly called her Champion, while Caithe is not.  Caithe acts as her representative(When Commander isn't around) and the head of the crystal bloom.

Dragon champion is a very, very broad title and despite Icebrood Saga's persistent in highlighting the Commander, Ryland, and Braham as being special "because they're champions", dragon champions are nothing special in of themselves. They can range as being as weak and meager as Labwan the Deceiver, or as great and important as Glint.

Heralds is an off-hand title given to the top dog of all champions, such as Drakkar, Glint, or the Great Destroyer. This is the position that the IBS: Champions storyline treats the Commander, Ryland, and Braham as, despite never using the term (to many's confusion).

Some players have taken to calling Caithe the "Voice of Aurene", due to her role as Aurene's, well, voice, in All or Nothing. To put her on par to Bangar's role as Voice of Jormag during IBS's second "half". In other words: a specialized champion, but not top-dog champion of Herald.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

16 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Dragon champion is a very, very broad title and despite Icebrood Saga's persistent in highlighting the Commander, Ryland, and Braham as being special "because they're champions", dragon champions are nothing special in of themselves. They can range as being as weak and meager as Labwan the Deceiver, or as great and important as Glint.

Heralds is an off-hand title given to the top dog of all champions, such as Drakkar, Glint, or the Great Destroyer. This is the position that the IBS: Champions storyline treats the Commander, Ryland, and Braham as, despite never using the term (to many's confusion).

Some players have taken to calling Caithe the "Voice of Aurene", due to her role as Aurene's, well, voice, in All or Nothing. To put her on par to Bangar's role as Voice of Jormag during IBS's second "half". In other words: a specialized champion, but not top-dog champion of Herald.

I always saw it like the Kodan do it. 

There is a Voice and a Claw. 

Caithe is the Voice. 

The Commander is the Claw. 

 

Caithe gets the Ability to speak for Aurene. 

We are the one who do Smash! 

 

[Ariurotl.3718]

Geez, it's the Caladbolg whining all over again. Ironically, the same answer I gave back then also applies: "The player's ego is being massaged quite enough already, don't you think?"

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I always saw it like the Kodan do it. 

There is a Voice and a Claw. 

Caithe is the Voice. 

The Commander is the Claw. 

 

Caithe gets the Ability to speak for Aurene. 

We are the one who do Smash! 

 

I never got the interest in relating to the kodan, since that's never been how it was for the Elder Dragons, tbh.

[voltaicbore.8012]

30 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I never got the interest in relating to the kodan, since that's never been how it was for the Elder Dragons, tbh.

I think it's just a mechanical analogy, not anything beyond that - just a demonstration of how a "speak" vs "smash" dichotomy of roles can exist. 

At any rate I'm not sure the analogy holds up, as it seems the presence and proper functioning of a Voice seems more significant than that of a Claw to the health and morale of a Kodan community. Ultimately every single Kodan (at least the ones we've seen) can participate to some extent in smashing. A Voice's direct connection to Koda seems much less widely shared, if at all.

[Aedil.1296]

I gree with op so much. It shocked me at the neginning of EoD when we got cut off from Aurene's cave in Shing Jea as she was resting and only caithe was allowed in. We count nothing as champion and caithe's bond with Aurene is clearly stronger/deeper as she was even branded. Total nonsense. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Aedil.1296 said:

I gree with op so much. It shocked me at the neginning of EoD when we got cut off from Aurene's cave in Shing Jea as she was resting and only caithe was allowed in. We count nothing as champion and caithe's bond with Aurene is clearly stronger/deeper as she was even branded. Total nonsense. 

That right there is momma bear in action mate.