Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[Silent.6137]

17 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

I agree the phrase is is seriously bad taste given the implication.
100%
I'm just wondering who came up with it, because it seems like the person I quoted was forcing a line they had heard somewhere into their posts....just wondering where they got it.,

But those words sure sound so impressive, don't they?🙄 Convoluted words with no real meanings,

[Blude.6812]

6 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

For quite a lot of players these “experiments” do have a positive outcome. Because of the DE meta players started to communicate and cooperate with each other again, new groups and guilds were formed. 
Bur of course, you can’t please everyone. 

Actually the consequence is players not playing the EoD maps anymore and even playing the game less.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Blude.6812

[yoni.7015]

9 minutes ago, Blude.6812 said:

Actually the consequence is players not playing the EoD maps anymore and even playing the game less.

This is hardly the only consequence.
Like I wrote, you can’t please everyone. Some players don’t like EoD, others do. I was never really a fan of the PoF maps, others liked them a lot. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by yoni.7015

[DeceiverX.8361]

4 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

 

Lol where does this hard meta is only for raiders narrative come from? Do you think someone able to solo a WvW camp struggles endlessly against DE. You think Someone in Gold isn't able to break a defiance bar or dodge an ability. Fractal player lack the ability to beat the meta? You think you couldn't do the meta with 5 random strikes groups? People who farm Kralkatorik crumble before the sea dragon? The guys carrying people thought other OW events absolutely can't do it? It is just a loud Minority in the forums who perceive it as to hard.

Wasn't the argument to be had here initially about communication and DPS being the major gateways here, not the mechanics (dodge, positioning, etc.)? 

Reason I ask is that I'm going to just assume you don't know much about the PvP modes, because your examples provided are extremely contrary to what I think you're trying to say, and directly support your opposition's stance lol. 

 

Honestly, it's all boiling down to a philosophical debate on what the landscape of OW should be and how rewards should be handled.  At what scale depending on other players to perform to a certain magnitude is alright per time investment.  Like if that guy who's dealing 30k DPS spends 2 hours to fail because of a bunch of sub-par performers dragged him down has a right to be upset and not bother again.  If 50 people did a run with flawless mechanics and never got hit once but still failed if that's okay.  How build-dependent the game should or should not be.  What skill is or is not.

The reason I'm critical here - and again, I have no knowledge of this encounter or even most of the PvE metas - is because those defending the timer right now are echoing the same sentiment that killed WvW/sPvP: To adjust how we play the game, build, organization, etc. to conform to a preset standard.  When we start making generalized statements of "change your build to ABC because you won't reach XYZ benchmark and have no mathematical chance of victory if you don't," the very nature of the foundation this game was built on - which is that anyone can do anything and should never be upset to see another player on-screen regardless of their build or skill level - is challenged.  Diversity is reduced.  Players become extremely unwilling to experiment with new thinking or strategy.

The mindset of "accept what's best"  in terms of PvE is generally the competitive mindset that only raid players look for.  Which is definitely a minority as presented above, because most players do not even want that kind of environment.  That's what gives me pause for concern here; logic dictates that if you need to organize and comp to succeed here, the underlying approach to the encounter mirrors that of a raid environment which we know a lot of the GW2 playerbase did not like by ANet's own metrics.

Whether or not those numbers are fine... I'm not here arguing implementation.  I just don't know because I haven't stepped foot in PvE in probably two years or more at this point.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

This is hardly the only consequence.
Like I wrote, you can’t please everyone. Some players don’t like EoD, others do. 

But the company looses money .

Let's hope from now on , it won't be repeated

 

 

(btw old gg , if you see some people asking for"unique rewards" . If it;s RNG i am ok with that...but if the ask something the LI-token system , like the  Legendary armor ... then do the same thing WoW + FF14 did to sellers and then implant the token system . We don't want to devalue the worth of the next armor-imfusion , while other people make 20k gold per year :P)

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Silent.6137]

11 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

But the company looses money .

Let's hope from now on , it won't be repeated

There are players who may dislike any of these: PoF, HoT, Raids, Fractals, WvW, PvP, JPs, etc., etc., etc.

So what are you suggesting? Get rid of all of them or don't make anymore of them because the company "loses" money?

Edited June 3, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

There are players who dislike PoF, HoT, Raids, Fractals, WvW, PvP, JPs, etc., etc., etc.

So what are you suggesting? Get rid of all of them or don't make anymore of them because the company "loses" money?

If people  abandon the DE, like Marrionete +Chac+Ire , i don't think they should waste any more money to those kind of people .

They have the Fractal>Normal Strikes >Raids >Raid CM> Strike CM as a progression system + if they love "hardcore stuff"

Open world should remain for the casuals

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[mindcircus.1506]

31 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

But those words sure sound so impressive, don't they?🙄 Convoluted words with no real meanings,

I guess.
I was under the impression that the term "non-consensual" had a very real and specific meaning.

[Silent.6137]

17 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

If people  abandon the DE, like Marrionete +Chac+Ire , i don't think they should waste any more money to those kind of people .

They have the Fractal>Normal Strikes >Raids >Raid CM> Strike CM as a progression system + if they love "hardcore stuff"

Open world should remain for the casuals

Who are the casuals? Anyone who dislike harder contents?

15 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

I guess.
I was under the impression that the term "non-consensual" had a very real and specific meaning.

No real meanings as in the game context. Terms created merely to impress.

[SlayerXX.7138]

50 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Wasn't the argument to be had here initially about communication and DPS being the major gateways here, not the mechanics (dodge, positioning, etc.)? 

No that was a strawman of the Pro nerf side. You can take an openworld build, pay attentions to mechanics and not doing a dps rotation an succeed.

I also don't see how i'm contradiction myself the majority of the player base can handle such a fight. And the only part of the OW player base who cant is the same part who refuses to improve. Just improve, no meta chasing, no 100% optimal build just refuses to try in earnest. The fight was designed to have players be mentally present, you couldn't nerf it enough so the people complaining here could be happy. Lets say we at 10 more minutes to the timer. Would the people failing right now enjoy failing mechanics for 8 more minutes? NO they would still be complaining while encouraging them to do even less. So why bother?

 

Why should Anet balance a meta event around people who don't want to do it? 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Who are the casuals? Anyone who dislike harder contents?

 

Any person who demands something specific   - less boss HP , don't touch the mechanics  for multiply threads .

 

Who is a raider then ?

A person that tell 'it's ok if you don't it , you can leave this content to us , but they should increase the rewards"

 

But , based on previous encounters (Chac,Marrionete,Ire) , they will soon drop it once again .

Wasting the money of the company

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Silent.6137]

3 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Any person who demands something specific   - less boss HP , don't touch the mechanics  for multiply threads .

 

Who is a raider then ?

A person that tell 'it's ok if you don't it , you can leave this content to us , but they should increase the rewards"

 

But , based on previous encounters (Chac,Marrionete,Ire) , they will soon drop it once again

 

 

You reply makes absolutely no sense at all. You're trying to peg a casual as something that's not.

A casual by most definitions is someone who are not very invested in the game. Play the game but do not spend inordinate amount of time in that particular game. They range from those who just like simple and easy contents to those who enjoy more challenging events. There's no one-size-fits-all.

A raider is someone who does Raids. Period.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

You reply makes absolutely no sense at all. You're trying to peg a casual as something that's not.

A casual by most definitions is someone who are not very invested in the game. Play the game but do not spend inordinate amount of time in that particular game. They range from those who just like simple and easy contents to those who enjoy more challenging events. There's no one-size-fits-all.

A raider is someone who does Raids. Period.

Nope , you have secretly players that play both .

Casuals that participate in the Training guilds and people hoping casuals to get gud and benefit the re-release of raids

https://imgur.com/a/qkQFRGE

 

Here the casual from the open world want less boss HP .

Others (like yori) are telling them "it's ok if you don't do it , but increase the rewards"

I say increase the rewards + re-create the Raid Legendary Armor , more beautiful than ever , but ban people that sell runs (so the new set is not devalued - they gain extra cash)

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[kharmin.7683]

52 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

 

A casual by most definitions is someone who are not very invested in the game. Play the game but do not spend inordinate amount of time in that particular game.

 

Uh... what?  Not even close.

[Cuks.8241]

4 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Uh... what?  Not even close.

Um thats exactly what it means. 

[Erise.5614]

  

10 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

This I agree with, it helps if people know what they are getting into. However It leaves the danger of people missing out on things they might enjoy out of fear associated with the "difficult" thing. 

 

It is a though balance to strike. 

That's fair. My main point is that DE ain't that balance. While it's not actively lying about the experience, it's also not doing anything to try and make itself seem different from other OW content until after you experienced frustration. Some may be positively surprised, some may not care. But personally and as far as I can tell a lot of other players too were negatively surprised. Which was predictable and which should be minimized for OW. 

4 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Who came up with this line? ("non-consensual raid boss")
I keep seeing it being parroted by one side of this debate...
Does anyone know where this line came from?

The original line is "non consensual raiding" and came from Mukluk. It was focused on the organizational aspect of the meta and assuring sufficient performance.

He made that point back in march before most of the changes when he commanded a raid full clear with all CMs for a video one day. And then failed over a handful of DE metas trying to command. The point is that while the mechanical complexity and DPS requirements are higher in raids, it is much less effort to actually play it. Less time to complete, less dragging people around groups. And about as much necessary chat usage by all other participants. Plus constant join spamming or map hopping to find a map with any chance of success. Making it about as much or more effort as a raid in specific aspects. Without players being informed this would be necessary while still requiring above average DPS performance. 

Though, obviously, that statement was immediately exaggerated by some and used in much less accurate contexts. Claiming all sorts of aspects are harder than raids as well. Inaccurately so. While others who did not listen to any of the context just focused on ridiculing the premise. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Erise.5614

[kharmin.7683]

13 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Um thats exactly what it means. 

No, it's not.  I'm a very casual player but to say that I am not invested in the game?  By what standard?  To say that I don't spend an inordinate amount of time in GW2?  What's inordinate?  How does anyone know whether or not I spend most of my gaming time in GW2 over other games?

I spend several hours a day on average each week in GW2.  I play OWPvE.  I don't PvP.  I don't WvW.  I don't do fractals/strikes/dungeons/raids.  I enjoy the story, but have only one toon who made it past Claw Island.  I don't enjoy HoT (but do appreciate the zones for the effort put into them!), have traveled PoF only enough to map complete it on a few toons and haven't even finished EoD.

I dabble in SW:ToR from time to time as well.  I am concerned for the direction of both games and am quite invested in how they continue to progress.  I know that several of my guild mates are about the same, too.

That definition of casual doesn't work.

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I spend several hours a day on average each week in GW2.  I play OWPvE.  I don't PvP.  I don't WvW.  I don't do fractals/strikes/dungeons/raids.  I enjoy the story, but have only one toon who made it past Claw Island.  I don't enjoy HoT (but do appreciate the zones for the effort put into them!), have traveled PoF only enough to map complete it on a few toons and haven't even finished EoD.

Can I ask what you do every day for several hours in the game? I am genuinely interested

[Erise.5614]

I mean. There's several valid definitions of casual. 

In some parts of gaming communities it does mean not very invested and not playing much.

The general dictionary definition is just "relaxed and unconcerned". Which is very valid too. But someone who's playing for relaxation and isn't concerned much about game mechanics or high performance can still be very invested. 

It reads to me as if you fellas are talking past one another using these two definitions. 

[Firebeard.1746]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:18 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

15+ or so runs. 3 fails.

 

If you are looking at 80% personal failure rate at this point in time, it's your personal inability to join a proper map or make use of the LFG. 

 

That said, yes the failure rate of random maps with a random mix of players on map will be far higher. That is to be expected the lack of control over how prepared the available players are. Does everyone have appropriate food? Have they stacked up buffs? Are waystations present for cc? Are boons even remotely covered? Do players know the fight or are explanations necessary?

 

This map meta is similar to tripple trouble in that it requires a minimal amount of organization. Going in hoping for the best is not going to work (even if the success rate is higher than TT) or will work rarely. Instead if complaining, improve your own approach to making use of the LFG.

 

Random maps failing is the issue. If this requires a proper organized raid like in other mmos, it belongs in instanced 50 man content. And what you're saying, sounds like organized raiding.

 

And if you think about it, most people don't play this game orbiting their communities. So anyone who doesn't play that way or anyone who joins new is guaranteed to fail, according to you. And that's not fun gameplay. And quite possibly the worst new and returning player experience possible, especially with the story and achieves leading up to it encouraging you to do the event. 

 

I have no issues with anet making difficult content or even large scale raids. But this is a worse experience than raiding in an mmo that focuses on raids as content. Because you have 0 control over who is in your group (map) and can't reset at will. And people will literally leave in the middle of the encounter if the slightest thing goes wrong, further screwing up scaling and success rates.

 

I only started playing this game seriously when i tried it out again at the end of season 4 because it gave me a raid-like experience (dragonfall) without all the bs. This is with more bs than a typical raid experience in other mmos and is gw2 not playing to its strengths.

 

I had high hopes when anet said they were adding strikes and making cm versions that they were finally acknowledging they had different players with varying levels of skill/or commitment to being hardcore in this game. EoD has felt like trying to get everyone trying to play like a raider all of the time. Which is fine, if you're  a raider. Or think it's the funnest thing to do all the time. If you don't fall into that bucket (and even some people who raid don't because they expect non raid content to he casual and enjoy it that way), this expansion sucks. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

Can I ask what you do every day for several hours in the game? I am genuinely interested

I run with the world boss train, sometimes hit larger ones like Karka Queen, help new players in low zones, pal around with guild mates with crazy builds in LS maps that usually kill us.  Farm some for gold.  Stuff like that. 

Some days I spend more time in game than others, thus the several hours a day per week on average point.  😉

[Cuks.8241]

According to dictionary I see: relaxed and unconcerned, not regular or permanent. A person who does something irregularly.

Seems pretty straightforward. Naturally its a relative term.

[kharmin.7683]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. There's several valid definitions of casual. 

In some parts of gaming communities it does mean not very invested and not playing much.

The general dictionary definition is just "relaxed and unconcerned". Which is very valid too. But someone who's playing for relaxation and isn't concerned much about game mechanics or high performance can still be very invested. 

It reads to me as if you fellas are talking past one another using these two definitions. 

I was merely disputing the point that the definition provided was the only definition of casual.

[Cuks.8241]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I was merely disputing the point that the definition provided was the only definition of casual.

Yeah but to say you're invested and you spend a relatively large amount of time (again based on your own perception, for someone this might be 5 h per week, for someone 25) goes against one of the simplest definitions.

Again its a relative term and I am aware different communities might use it differently. But you have players here that say that are casual while in the other sentence saying they spent 40 hours failing the meta in the first week it was released (just an example). That is not casual by any definition.

For example, for me someone that logs in every Sunday evening for 2 h for a guild raid but otherwise is not really invested is casual.

[Gibson.4036]

I know this is off the topic of the current direction of the thread arguing the definition of “casual” yet again, but  in response to the idea everyone agrees EOD needs to be shorter…

There is totally a place in the game for a longer meta if the rewards match the time spent and rewards aren’t close to all-or-nothing based on final success.

I would say that metas or world bosses on set timers should be short, though, and long metas should follow the pattern of starting when the previous ended so they move around the clock.

Players shouldn’t be locked out of a two hour meta because it always takes place over the same two hours, and their play time straddles the end hour of one and the start of the next.

Other metas in the game are much more friendly to players with restricted game time when you can pop in as your schedule allows and generally find a meta in early stages because there are several instances with the same meta at different levels of progress.

This might also help players struggling to find an organized instance because there wouldn’t be one small window every two hours to get in on a coordinated group through LFG. Players could instead start watching LFG whenever they’re ready and catch them as they appear.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Gibson.4036