At what point is it elitism vs efficiency?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

Edited July 3, 2022 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[SexyMofo.8923]

Difficulty is trivial. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

That's a two-way street.  Having people drop group or kick players from a group for poor performance is a chore.  It's also a chore to carry people through content they're not prepared for.

[mythical.6315]

On 7/3/2022 at 11:32 AM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

The second someone feels excluded. 

Edit:  Heh Heh.  Perhaps I hit a nerve with this post and it struck a little too true for them to bear.

Edited July 20, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Linken.6345]

32 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

As soon as someones feefees is hurt.

[Artemis.8034]

38 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

The fact is Anet created raid bosses with a thing called a dps check, it takes a certain amount of dps to beat the timer of most all while doing the mechanics. You can endlessly wipe on a dps boss if your group is not pulling the total numbers. You can get carried by a few dps over pulling the numbers, but thats up to the group if they want to do that. most prefer you carry your weight. Im not good at dps , I cant pull a high dps rotation most of the time, but in most pugs I have been in I was never kicked because of it, a few asked me if I could bring up the numbers, a few have just removed me, but overall most have been kind about it.

 

I dont want to be a burden on the group but i do love to raid, so the solution for me was to start playing roles that I could do well. So boons and healer , now learning tanking and pylon and pillars greens kiting. And honestly I have had comms when I really messed up something bad and wiped the group give me a second chance, if I fudged it again they didnt yell and cuss me out, they whispered me and said sorry man im going to let you go and get someone in that can do the mechanic. And thats fine im not mad , I go and learn where I went wrong and get better. I think I have only seen 3 or 4 actual ahole leads in all the raiding I have done. They stand out because they were screaming and flaming people in the squad. But overall most are decent if not downright nice. But then again i dont lie to try to get into a Dhuum cm or something I tell them if I have done this or that. Training raids are great for people to learn, but yes experienced runs want experienced people that can do the mechanics and carry their weight. 

[Danikat.8537]

IMO it's about tone and managing expections ahead of time rather than what the specific requirements are.

There's a huge difference between advertising a group with specific requirements and making sure everyone joining is willing and able to meet them vs. letting anyone in then deciding part way through one of them isn't up to your standards and kicking them. In the first case everyone considering joining knew what would be expected of them and if they weren't willing or able to do that they could simply find another group, so there's no problem. In the second case they were lead to believe whatever they were playing was fine, because no one said otherwise, then suddenly find out actually there are rules but no one told them what they are. (When I've seen it happen it's also common that they aren't told why they're being kicked, or just given some vague reason like 'not enough dmg' and given no oppertunity to do anything about it once they do know what the requirements are.)

Likewise there's a big difference between telling someone directly but politely they don't have the right build for your group and the group doesn't have a space for what they have so you're going to look for someone else vs. mocking them or insulting them for not doing what you wanted.

There are also groups who have excessive requirements, absurdly so in some cases (the one I saw recently was a group asking for 150 LI for Ascalon Catacombs) but IMO that's a seperate problem. It is a form of elitism, but I wouldn't call it toxic because it's easy for anyone who thinks it's unreasonable or can't meet it or whatever to simply ignore them.

[AgentMoore.9453]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team?

When communication breaks down and/or childish behavior becomes part of the team's first response or general mindset.

You can form a group with whatever expectations you like, and so long as you communicate those expectations clearly and treat players with decency, you're doing nothing wrong. Even kicking members from a group is perfectly understandable if you've been clear and polite about your terms and your team members are still not following directions.

Elitism and toxicity are frames of mind more than anything else. People who expect complete control in a public environment (and respond immaturely when they don't get it) are being elitist (and should probably stick to private groups where control is actually possible if they wish to avoid this). People who communicate poorly (and become upset when their needs aren't understood) or develop an overly negative/superior attitude toward anyone who doesn't meet their standards and who disparage these players in their day-to-day remarks are toxic.

It's pretty easy to be neither of those things, and mostly it just involves using your head a little.

[Freya.9075]

Elitism to me is more about the attitude then requirements. Nothing wrong with making lfg including requirements you want. How you deal with ppl joining is what defines elitism vs wanting effective group for content. 

[mirage.8046]

if you're getting bees in your bonnet how people are playing, then that sounds like elitism. there's no harm in having specific roles in LFG; having xyz means that's what they prefer or need to clear the content.

[dace.8019]

On the matter of elitism/efficiency, it's often about time. Time to do the thing and do it easy. In GW2 this often ends up with the people in question spending longer waiting for the optimal group than the time it takes to just run the content with an adequate group.

 

I've often sat in fractal groups waiting on, say, an Alacren for 10 minutes. Having one in the group doesn't take 10 mins off the time to clear the daily/recs. But they're gonna wait around doing nothing until they find one instead of just grabbing one of the billion DPS refreshing LFG and just doing it.

[Westenev.5289]

I'd say the difference is that an efficient group will take steps to improve efficiency (practice, explain, adapt), while an elitist group has their way or the highway.

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Freya.9075 said:

Elitism to me is more about the attitude then requirements. Nothing wrong with making lfg including requirements you want. How you deal with ppl joining is what defines elitism vs wanting effective group for content. 

This.

You could have a group who wants to do the content efficiently and has an attitude of camaraderie about it, for example ("your failure is my failure, your success is my success"). You could also have a group who wants to do the content efficiently and sees people who get in the way as lesser beings ("it's your fault we're being held up").

In general, the 1st group is going to be more efficient overall because failures are something to work through as a team, rather than a reason to start fragmenting and casting blame. There are times that something is a particular person's fault, but there are also times (and I see this in pugs far too much in games over the years) where people are just frustrated about something having gone wrong and want to find a scapegoat to put it on, without really considering the larger strategic picture. And even when something is a particular person's fault, publicly shaming them is probably not productive. It may reach the point their participation has to be reconsidered if the fight or goals require a certain level of skill they can't provide right now, but that is still something they can go work on, it's not something wrong with the person and the elitist attitude will instead often see the person as being in a permanent state of "lesser" that they can't escape from. So even if they want them to improve, they don't truly believe it can happen.

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, dace.8019 said:

I've often sat in fractal groups waiting on, say, an Alacren for 10 minutes. Having one in the group doesn't take 10 mins off the time to clear the daily/recs. But they're gonna wait around doing nothing until they find one instead of just grabbing one of the billion DPS refreshing LFG and just doing it.

This is indeed highly ironic. I wonder if they realize how counterproductive this is. 

[mythical.6315]

9 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

This is indeed highly ironic. I wonder if they realize how counterproductive this is. 

They’re looking for a smooth run. 

[Linken.6345]

28 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This.

You could have a group who wants to do the content efficiently and has an attitude of camaraderie about it, for example ("your failure is my failure, your success is my success"). You could also have a group who wants to do the content efficiently and sees people who get in the way as lesser beings ("it's your fault we're being held up").

In general, the 1st group is going to be more efficient overall because failures are something to work through as a team, rather than a reason to start fragmenting and casting blame. There are times that something is a particular person's fault, but there are also times (and I see this in pugs far too much in games over the years) where people are just frustrated about something having gone wrong and want to find a scapegoat to put it on, without really considering the larger strategic picture. And even when something is a particular person's fault, publicly shaming them is probably not productive. It may reach the point their participation has to be reconsidered if the fight or goals require a certain level of skill they can't provide right now, but that is still something they can go work on, it's not something wrong with the person and the elitist attitude will instead often see the person as being in a permanent state of "lesser" that they can't escape from. So even if they want them to improve, they don't truly believe it can happen.

Yes and that is in essence static group vs pick up group.

In a static you learn and try again in a pug were you might not see the person again why should you train  random people week in and week out?

At what point have you earned right to play with people who know the content at the same level as yourself consistently?

[Cyninja.2954]

28 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

This is indeed highly ironic. I wonder if they realize how counterproductive this is. 

 

Not counterproductive at all if it leads to the desired way of playing the game.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Einsof.1457]

dps means nothing if you cant do mechanics. I'd rather have a team of mediocre dpsers that have expert knowledge on mechanics than a group of top golem dpsers that cant dodge things. 

[mythical.6315]

6 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

dps means nothing if you cant do mechanics. I'd rather have a team of mediocre dpsers that have expert knowledge on mechanics than a group of top golem dpsers that cant dodge things. 

Or you can get players who are both. 

[Labjax.2465]

11 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes and that is in essence static group vs pick up group.

In a static you learn and try again in a pug were you might not see the person again why should you train  random people week in and week out?

At what point have you earned right to play with people who know the content at the same level as yourself consistently?

Those are some pretty leading questions.

Anyway, there are people and guilds who do meta bosses who explain the mechanics every time. They are both being efficient and being helpful, ensuring everyone knows what to do so it goes more smoothly and helping newer or returning players with being informed. It's not always something where you have to choose between playing at mach speed and playing like a team, just because it is a pug.

I'm not sure what to even say to the 2nd question, what kind of weird road you're trying to lead down there. Like "earned the right"? Is this a game still that we're talking about? Who is preventing you from already doing this?

[Linken.6345]

4 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Those are some pretty leading questions.

Anyway, there are people and guilds who do meta bosses who explain the mechanics every time. They are both being efficient and being helpful, ensuring everyone knows what to do so it goes more smoothly and helping newer or returning players with being informed. It's not always something where you have to choose between playing at mach speed and playing like a team, just because it is a pug.

I'm not sure what to even say to the 2nd question, what kind of weird road you're trying to lead down there. Like "earned the right"? Is this a game still that we're talking about? Who is preventing you from already doing this?

Well that is kinda needed since you cant really exclude people in an open world map mate.

So to ensure your own success you have to explain in to everyone and hoping people play with chat on ( and there seem to be alot who play with it off tbh )

I thought we were talking about instance pug/static squads/groups were you can actually have control on with who you play with.

Yes there is still a game and I dont expect every squad to take me into kanieng overlook cm or harvest temple cm for example.

Since I have not completed those instances so I look for training squads or try to form my own when I have time.

[Labjax.2465]

9 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well that is kinda needed since you cant really exclude people in an open world map mate.

So to ensure your own success you have to explain in to everyone and hoping people play with chat on ( and there seem to be alot who play with it off tbh )

I thought we were talking about instance pug/static squads/groups were you can actually have control on with who you play with.

Yes there is still a game and I dont expect every squad to take me into kanieng overlook cm or harvest temple cm for example.

Since I have not completed those instances so I look for training squads or try to form my own when I have time.

I'm talking about both, either or, I just used metas as an example and I don't agree that it's the difference between static and pug group like you mentioned in your previous post. You can still have an attitude of camaraderie in a pug group, people just don't want to sometimes and you don't have the time to bridge that gap. None of which is me saying that a person has to earn some right to want to play with other experienced players, or that they never can. I do think, however, that when pugging people need to be realistic about expectations; meaning, go ahead and make an exclusive group if they want to, but don't think they're entitled to a smooth run when they're potlucking a group. Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with elitism. You can want to play with other experienced players today and not be elitist, but if you are pugging, sometimes what you see is what you get.

I guess coming from games with automated group finder, I find it hard to wrap my head around the culture I see here of people wanting to pug, but also have a fast, smooth run every time.

[Danikat.8537]

32 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes and that is in essence static group vs pick up group.

In a static you learn and try again in a pug were you might not see the person again why should you train  random people week in and week out?

At what point have you earned right to play with people who know the content at the same level as yourself consistently?

It sounds like you've had some bad experiences before, but at least in this topic no one is suggesting it's something you have to earn. (I'm not even sure how that would work.) All anyone's said is that it's important to be clear about your expectations, and forming a static group is indeed one of the ways to do that.

Setting the group up in advance allows more time to discuss the requirements for whatever it is you're doing and everyone's expectations and make sure everyone involved knows what's expected of them and is able to do it. (Whether that's coming with the necessary build and knowledge of how to use it to succeed right away or a willingness to learn and adapt to the encounter.)
 

27 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Not counterproductive at all if it leads to the desired way of playing the game.

If your desire is to get through something quickly then spending longer waiting for your ideal group composition than you'd spend doing it with a less efficent group is counterproductive. If your choice is between accepting anyone and spending 10 minutes getting something done, or waiting 10 minutes for someone who can help you do it in 5 minutes then waiting is pointless - overall it takes 15 minutes instead of 10.

Of course it's not always that clear cut, but there's been many times I've joined a group for something and then we've been hanging around waiting for the 1 specific build the person who made the group wants, until someone asks if we need them and we get told "no, but it goes faster". A few times in T1 and even T2 Fractals we managed to get through an entire Fractal (and this usually happened with Sunqua Peak) 1 person short, because we'd start and hope the person we 'needed' would join before the boss, then we finished before that happened.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Einsof.1457 said:

dps means nothing if you cant do mechanics. I'd rather have a team of mediocre dpsers that have expert knowledge on mechanics than a group of top golem dpsers that cant dodge things. 

Yeah, I'm sure somebody who can pull off perfect golem benchmarks doesn't know mechanics or how to dodge. 🙄

[Silent.6137]

49 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

If your desire is to get through something quickly then spending longer waiting for your ideal group composition than you'd spend doing it with a less efficent group is counterproductive. If your choice is between accepting anyone and spending 10 minutes getting something done, or waiting 10 minutes for someone who can help you do it in 5 minutes then waiting is pointless - overall it takes 15 minutes instead of 10.

You see it often for Fractal. Groups that will stay in LFG for a very long time. Someone will join and then it'll be listed again and again. Hoping to get it done fast but instead failing miserably.

A good example is the T2 42 relic farm. The person who organized this will spend 1/2 hour to get the exact mix. It makes absolutely no sense at all wasting all these time waiting, Your relic/hour will be way less than simply repeating the daily recommended. Form a team and keep doing it. Someone dropped? No problem, just re-list and continue going through the 3 tiers. (Of course, don't choose to farm Daily Recs on days when you have something like Sunqua and Shattered together).

Edited July 3, 2022 by Silent.6137