Please anet dont forget vindicator exists

[soul.9651]

Just let us have a competitive pdps spec among all pdps choices in this game. We already were struggling with vindicators damage before the big balance patch dropped and  right now its not even close to what other top pdps specs can do.. i get it that it might take some time, and seeing soulbeast getting their dps fixed, promises to fix warrior banners and that 5% chance trait shows that you are trying to fix the balance. But in the process just dont forget that vindicator needs your help aswell, and not only dps, after ventari rework the supp option feels like its been thrown to the trash can aswell..

[Obtena.7952]

Vind is unlikely to be the pdps choice for Rev because of how legends work. I also don't see a problem that requires a change to it

[soul.9651]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Vind is unlikely to be the pdps choice for Rev because of how legends work. I also don't see a problem that requires a change to it

I mean havent you seen a problem with untamed aswell before they recently buffed it? Its the same story, noone is gonna play vindicator at content like strike cms or raids while other far better options exist. And yes it definetely can work as power dps if they boosted the numbers, people can have different opinions and thats fine, but if you personaly cant see how it could work it doesnt mean that other people cant figure it out how it actually could work and right now only the numbers are stoping vindicator from performing well. Unless you are looking at it from open world player perspective where ofc you wouldnt see any problem because there no matter what class or  build you play everything will work..

Edited July 4, 2022 by soul.9651

[Buran.3796]

   It could be top dps build and still won't be meta. Even if you buff the damage to levels unseen by other professions, what else has to offer?

* Doesn't provide alacrity.

*Doesn't provide quickness.

*Doesn't provide aegis, boon rips/corruption.

*Has no meaningful cc or team stability (can offer some from legacy weapons and legends but they are very situational).

*Doesn't have means to deliver damage at range and lacks teleports which others have to help with some gameplay mechanics.

*As a healer, its dps tanks from mediocre to terrible.

 

   If you've been aware of the race to complete Havest Temple in Challenge Mode you known that the team composition was more about which specs provided the tools to the group to fulfill the goals rather than just bruteforce the phases through massive dps. Mechanist, Firebrand and Virtuosos were the choices due their versatility. Vindi could deliver 50k dps and still wouldn't bring anything special to the table: every class can provide permafury, 25 stacks of migth and so on....   

   What the meta demands is builds with tools to perform well on several areas: being good at dps but also bringing up squad quicknes or alacrity; having instant access to team stability, protection, resolution; having team alacrity and good heals, reflects and tons of ccs; having consistent high dps at any range, boon stripping and AoE vigor...

   A few specs are like swiss knifes: they have a lot of those tools available, so even if they aren't the top dps or the top healers available they are extremely handful to deal with all kind of obstacles. Kurzik is the closest thing to being that which the Vindicator could offer, but pales against other support options and to be good at healing the blue has to give up its damage almost entirely.

   That's why nornalizing the boons across all professions won't change that some are intrinsically better than the rest: they lack the tools. Plus: a single dodge which costs 100 endurance is just asking a kick in the balls at the instanced hall entrance. SEALS won't pick crippled, no matter how good snipers they are.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Buran.3796

[ScottBroChill.3254]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Vind is unlikely to be the pdps choice for Rev because of how legends work. I also don't see a problem that requires a change to it

If it isn't the pdps of choice then what is it's purpose?

[Nephalem.8921]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Vind is unlikely to be the pdps choice for Rev because of how legends work. I also don't see a problem that requires a change to it

what is it supposed to be then? open world rp spec with a reaper shout collection?

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

If it isn't the pdps of choice then what is it's purpose?

Something else I guess .... I mean, it's obviously not pdps as it's  designed right

6 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

what is it supposed to be then? open world rp spec with a reaper shout collection?

Yup, that's s it

[Scoobaniec.9561]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Something else I guess .... I mean, it's obviously not pdps as it's  designed right

If only devs themself knew what they designed it for right?😆😆😆

[Lighter.5631]

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

If only devs themself knew what they designed it for right?😆😆😆

such a fail when they said that they designed elite spec solely based on aesthetics..

like what in the world.. 

 

you need to think about aesthetics and what role it plays and everything

[Fueki.4753]

You should actually hope that they forget about it.

At this point, they are more likely to nerf it further than to buff it.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Scoobaniec.9561]

27 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

such a fail when they said that they designed elite spec solely based on aesthetics..

?????

What aesthetics LMFAO

[Lighter.5631]

2 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

?????

What aesthetics LMFAO

probably simply wanted to copy the aesthetics of dragoon so they can be done with their work quicker, without much thought put behind it

Edited July 5, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Valisha.8650]

Perhaps they could give it quickness. No idea how or where, though.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Perhaps they could give it quickness. No idea how or where, though.

quickness actually fit way more Alliance than Herald :P

[Mike.7983]

Just a thought for the alliance elite, ditch the horrible spear and replace it with a toggled energy drain skill pending your second stance, like it will give quickness/impossible odds same time if merged with shiro/alliance, the hammers/protection with jalis, torment/resilience with demon etc.  Guess what trying to say is give alliance elite a 2 in 1 energy toggle based on what your running.  No power builds will ever want to waste cost on the wet noodle elite right now.  Vindicator does need a overhaul do not see any easy fix other than super buffing all power damage across the board. Condi damage is killing power badly.  Regarding the alliance pulsing the quickness/odds, feel if they keep it at maybe double the upkeep as impossible odds is right now then vindicator damage may bump up just enough to leave the "uninstall tier"

[Angesombre.4630]

It's funny to know the number of proposals, ideas that have been proposed, more than 40 pages on the vindi. It is still buggy since the first beta despite the times it has been said. Nerf I don't know how many times when it is not up to date on the legend of the alliance. While the mechanist already performing is still above the lot... (not the only one but an example). Not to mention the number of nerfing the revenant in general.

[otto.5684]

On 7/4/2022 at 1:33 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Vind is unlikely to be the pdps choice for Rev because of how legends work. I also don't see a problem that requires a change to it

What?! Vindicator is the power dps choice, BY DESIGN. Did you even read what the traits do or what the elite weapon does? 

[otto.5684]

Vindicator needs GS5 damage to be normalised against all targets. GS5 CD should be reduced to 8 secs. Compared to all power builds, it should be in 70-90th percentile, since it does not provide any support.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

48 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

What?! Vindicator is the power dps choice, BY DESIGN. Did you even read what the traits do or what the elite weapon does? 

That's the problem: Vind isn't the power DPS choice by default.  Renegade is, for a couple of reasons.

1. The shortbow is the only effective ranged weapon that rev has.  It's a hybrid weapon, doing good strike and condition damage.
2. In the majority of circumstances, there's little reason to not use sword/sword.  The advantage that Greatsword has is melee cleave, while sword skills 2-4 don't upscale.  But, that is only really an issue while fighting more than 3 enemies in melee range, since the sword auto upscales quite well.
3. Kalla is a far superior legend to alliance stance.  Kalla. does high single target damage, good self-healing, great CC, and it comes with a decent life-leeching toggle.  Alliance stance has some very flat and basic abilities, with the only notable thing bein self-quickness.
4. Brutal Momentum is a powerful trait that frees up the Invocation grandmaster tier, either getting more energy on legend swap or an attack that grants boons. Instead of being forced to dodge to do damage, Renegade is rewarded for not dodging and given Vigor to ensure its endurance refills quickly when it does.
5. Vindicator's gimmick is the dragoon dodge, and it's traits/abilities are all based around compensating for the inherent weakness of a mandatory giant dodge with double the endurance cost.  Renegade comes with 3 order skills that either grant might, alacrity, or launches a bunch of missiles to do extra AoE damage against an enemy.  

The end result is that Renegade is more versatile, can fight at multiple ranges, and hits just about as hard as Vindicator does.  The only advantage to Vindicator is that it is easier to do high DPS with.  

[SeTect.5918]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:01 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

You should actually hope that they forget about it.

At this point, they are more likely to nerf it further than to buff it.

Thought so too first but its Actually Wrong. 

Same thing happened to Herald. 

They nerfed core to the ground and then buffed renegade which resulted in herald getting nerfed even tho they forgot it. 

[Nephalem.8921]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:29 PM, Lighter.5631 said:

probably simply wanted to copy the aesthetics of dragoon so they can be done with their work quicker, without much thought put behind it

but dragoon works. dragoon jumps are actual skills and not their dodge mechanic changed. dragoon jumps are also extremely fast. some are sub 500ms animations. meanwhile vindicator has this 2second long rp jump.

try it on golem after the patch. it does insanely low dps on top of no utility or cc. its bad. untamed is in a much better spot than vindicator now and they wont buff it either anytime soon. it needs a rework. reaper is in its state for years afterall.

these devs are just far too casual to balance the game properly.

[Nephalem.8921]

11 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

That's the problem: Vind isn't the power DPS choice by default.  Renegade is, for a couple of reasons.

1. The shortbow is the only effective ranged weapon that rev has.  It's a hybrid weapon, doing good strike and condition damage.
2. In the majority of circumstances, there's little reason to not use sword/sword.  The advantage that Greatsword has is melee cleave, while sword skills 2-4 don't upscale.  But, that is only really an issue while fighting more than 3 enemies in melee range, since the sword auto upscales quite well.
3. Kalla is a far superior legend to alliance stance.  Kalla. does high single target damage, good self-healing, great CC, and it comes with a decent life-leeching toggle.  Alliance stance has some very flat and basic abilities, with the only notable thing bein self-quickness.
4. Brutal Momentum is a powerful trait that frees up the Invocation grandmaster tier, either getting more energy on legend swap or an attack that grants boons. Instead of being forced to dodge to do damage, Renegade is rewarded for not dodging and given Vigor to ensure its endurance refills quickly when it does.
5. Vindicator's gimmick is the dragoon dodge, and it's traits/abilities are all based around compensating for the inherent weakness of a mandatory giant dodge with double the endurance cost.  Renegade comes with 3 order skills that either grant might, alacrity, or launches a bunch of missiles to do extra AoE damage against an enemy.  

The end result is that Renegade is more versatile, can fight at multiple ranges, and hits just about as hard as Vindicator does.  The only advantage to Vindicator is that it is easier to do high DPS with.  

You call a 29k dps spec at best high dps? Both power specs hit like wet noodles. Both are extremely hitbox reliant. also vindicator cleave isnt even great. gs 5 is single target for some reason.

swapping to shortbow on power ren is a strict dps loss. swapping to gs as vindi is a dps gain. swapping to condi ren or any other dps except reaper or herald is a massive dps gain. this includes untamed.

[Kozumi.5816]

30 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

these devs are just far too casual to balance the game properly.

How can you be casual at your 9 to 5 JOB?

All that is required is basic math, not playing the game a lot.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

10 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

You call a 29k dps spec at best high dps? Both power specs hit like wet noodles. Both are extremely hitbox reliant. also vindicator cleave isnt even great. gs 5 is single target for some reason.

swapping to shortbow on power ren is a strict dps loss. swapping to gs as vindi is a dps gain. swapping to condi ren or any other dps except reaper or herald is a massive dps gain. this includes untamed.

Well, you just shoved a lot of words in my mouth.  To answer your question: no, and stop making things up.  I'm not sure how it is after the update, but power renegade used to hit for around 36k DPS:

 

You could take some away after the Dance of Death Nerf, but that meant it just hit around 35k.  Vindicator, meanwhile, hit for... 36k:

 

Basically, vindicator trades the toolbox, versatility, and safety of the renegade for... 500 DPS?  Maybe 1k DPS on current numbers?  If I go into raids again, and I insist on bringing power rev, I'm going with Renegade on most bosses because I will need to either CC hard, or engage at a distance due to mechanics.  Vind is only better against damage sponges.  

[Nephalem.8921]

37 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Well, you just shoved a lot of words in my mouth.  To answer your question: no, and stop making things up.  I'm not sure how it is after the update, but power renegade used to hit for around 36k DPS:

 

You could take some away after the Dance of Death Nerf, but that meant it just hit around 35k.  Vindicator, meanwhile, hit for... 36k:

 

Basically, vindicator trades the toolbox, versatility, and safety of the renegade for... 500 DPS?  Maybe 1k DPS on current numbers?  If I go into raids again, and I insist on bringing power rev, I'm going with Renegade on most bosses because I will need to either CC hard, or engage at a distance due to mechanics.  Vind is only better against damage sponges.  

PLease. Thats why i shouldnt read the forums. Those benches are from 2!!!!!!!! patches ago. And power ren didnt lose just 1k dps from the battle scar nerf. it lost more like 3k+ dps and was a 33k dps at best spec after that. The battle scar nerf murdered it. On huge. sub 30k on normal sized.

that vindicator bench was also pre patch on massive hitbox which doesnt even exist in the game. 

Here. that was vindicator on normal sized hitbox. its even lower than that on small hitbox which doesnt even exist in golem area. thats 200 dps ahead of power untamed btw.

Currently its sitting on 32k-33k huge at best with 0 cc. sub 30k on small. its trash.

And this is dps alone btw. Single dodge which is required for dps alone would disqualify it from content but it does almost 0 cc on top. its extremely bad.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Nephalem.8921