there was no explanation

[Lighter.5631]

there was literally no explanation

because they know it's not explainable lol

 

but i'll still add my two sense to this "explanation" that barely explained anything

 

"Banners will apply Quickness to nearby allies when they're deployed, and then continue to pulse a specific boon for its duration. This isn't intended to cover Quickness alone"

 

duh, we all know that, this is not the thing we want explanation for,

we wanna know what's the design thoughts behind pick up mechanics and the empty skill bar? hello

we wanna know what's the design thought for putting critical chance into Furious burst and longbow changes.

 

"Warrior players don't have a lot of options for utility skills that increase their damage output"

 

What? warrior does not lack utility skills that increase damage out put

(signets, peak performance, shouts, banners, frenzy, entire line of rage skill only to increase berserk for more damage and now half of bladesworn utility skills, they all increase damage output)

 

what warrior lacks are utility skills that DOES damage on it's own.

(like glyphs, pisonic, spirit weapon, wells, or even daredevil/willbender version of physical skills, why 4 out of 4 physical skills for warrior are control skills? we don't need that many which simply compete with each other, where's the variety?)

 

 

 

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I mean... how DO YOU explain 5% Crit in Arms other then " Im imcompetent"?

 

[Gorem.8104]

17 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I mean... how DO YOU explain 5% Crit in Arms other then " Im imcompetent"?

 

Love if Anet just put this in the Warrior notes: "I'm gonna be honest here, we have no idea what the kitten we are doing with Warrior" And then just move onto the next class 

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

I think because any explanation that they give would mean they'd have to be prepared to die on that hill. To me there is no explanation they could give that would make it worth that.

[cryorion.9532]

I think it was just more "detailed" balance patch notes. Notes that they would normally release if they didn't decide to release simplified notes due to translations to other languages (that's what Anet said 🤷‍♂️).

 

The 5% crit trait being in Arms is a symptom rather than the issue. The fundamental issue is that Arms is simply old and neglected traitline that wasn't adjusted at all for modern standards. It synergyzes better with condi builds and worse with power builds. Since condi builds don't require 100% crit chance, practically all critical increases in Arms are useless for power builds due to bad synergies. One would be better off using other traitline for power builds and fix critical hit chance with stats/runes/sigils/signets/etc. What needs to happen is either:

a) power and critical hit increase traits from Arms (e.g. signet trait, 5% crit increase trait) should be moved to Discipline and Arms should be reworked into pure condi/hybrid traitline with much better synergies for condition builds and condition weapons

b) Arms traitline should be reworked in a way that would provide distinct benefits for power, conditon or hybrid builds but it wouldn't be about critical chance at all (Arms shouldn't be picked to increase critical hit chance) - simply put, Arms traitline should focus more on enhancing weapons and their effects by adding more condition/hybrid synergies

This is all way too simplified and obviously requires to go into more detail but the most important thing is that Arms needs rework... oh wow who would have guessed that. The fact Anet naturally picked Arms as place for 5% crit chance trait shows how incoherent Arms is relative to warrior profession and it simply doesn't work very good with power builds.

Edited July 11, 2022 by cryorion.9532

[DKRathalos.9625]

10 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I mean... how DO YOU explain 5% Crit in Arms other then " Im imcompetent"?

 

Let's add "We are lazy to design something so when you pick up banner you got no weapon skills."

[DanAlcedo.3281]

10 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Love if Anet just put this in the Warrior notes: "I'm gonna be honest here, we have no idea what the kitten we are doing with Warrior" And then just move onto the next class 

If they actually came out and said:

"Guys. We majorly ducked up. "

I would be fine with it. Just don't pretend there was any logic behind it. 

[Hotride.2187]

13 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

we wanna know what's the design thoughts behind pick up mechanics and the empty skill bar? hello

"we found the code for picking up banners, we didn't find the code for the old banner skills"

[Puck.3697]

There simply is not explanation. 

All you can do is pretty much admit it was terrible and poorly thought through and offer changes, the.sad news is I doubt they will ever make banners fun to play. 

They should simply have us wear the banners on our backs while active so it pulses from the player.

There's so much backwards logic in regards to what has happened to banner. In a sheer support option it's terrible and repeats the problem they proclaimed was the reason for the cata nerfs. 

Now bladesworn can be stacked to provide quickness with little to none dps loss, so we now going to see bladesworn receive those same nerfs? 

Warrior needs a overhaul, the faster anet admit that and start doing that the better, stop with the silly attempt at bandaiding the issue and just simply say you needed til August for the warrior changes. 

Waiting a extra month to see a actual rework and a fundamental improvement would have been a 1000x better then what we received now. Given its a complete waste of time as now its even worse then it was originally. 

[Vancho.8750]

9 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

I think it was just more "detailed" balance patch notes. Notes that they would normally release if they didn't decide to release simplified notes due to translations to other languages (that's what Anet said 🤷‍♂️).

 

The 5% crit trait being in Arms is a symptom rather than the issue. The fundamental issue is that Arms is simply old and neglected traitline that wasn't adjusted at all for modern standards. It synergyzes better with condi builds and worse with power builds. Since condi builds don't require 100% crit chance, practically all critical increases in Arms are useless for power builds due to bad synergies. One would be better off using other traitline for power builds and fix critical hit chance with stats/runes/sigils/signets/etc. What needs to happen is either:

a) power and critical hit increase traits from Arms (e.g. signet trait, 5% crit increase trait) should be moved to Discipline and Arms should be reworked into pure condi/hybrid traitline with much better synergies for condition builds and condition weapons

b) Arms traitline should be reworked in a way that would provide distinct benefits for power, conditon or hybrid builds but it wouldn't be about critical chance at all (Arms shouldn't be picked to increase critical hit chance) - simply put, Arms traitline should focus more on enhancing weapons and their effects by adding more condition/hybrid synergies

This is all way too simplified and obviously requires to go into more detail but the most important thing is that Arms needs rework... oh wow who would have guessed that. The fact Anet naturally picked Arms as place for 5% crit chance trait shows how incoherent Arms is relative to warrior profession and it simply doesn't work very good with power builds.

I think arms should be about ranged weapons and swords so about hybrid condi power damage and ranged damage, it also needs the weapons to function on 10s swap time so it can contest discipline for a slot and should have better synergy with other trait lines that are not discipline and it needs some kind of sustain trait cause in the moment you can use arms only on core to get a full build in pvp, outside of that you get  glass condi builds which sure as hell doesn't work and glass power builds which are memes. It has the option of sustain trait line Arms, elite but at the end of it, it doesn't give much on sustain or damage to contest anything at the moment.

[cryorion.9532]

59 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I think arms should be about ranged weapons and swords so about hybrid condi power damage and ranged damage, it also needs the weapons to function on 10s swap time so it can contest discipline for a slot and should have better synergy with other trait lines that are not discipline and it needs some kind of sustain trait cause in the moment you can use arms only on core to get a full build in pvp, outside of that you get  glass condi builds which sure as hell doesn't work and glass power builds which are memes. It has the option of sustain trait line Arms, elite but at the end of it, it doesn't give much on sustain or damage to contest anything at the moment.

Yeah, sure. That can work, too. Just like Strength got MMR for sustain even though it is offensive oriented traitline. Anet just needs to wake up and probably retrain their balance devs, it is clear their balancing is not as sophisticated as it should be.

Edited July 12, 2022 by cryorion.9532

[Mungrul.9358]

I think I've mentioned before, but at first glance, Arms appears to be the crit trait line.

 

To play Devil's Advocate, prior to this patch:

Furious Burst granted Fury on burst

Opportunist granted Fury (and adrenaline)

Unsuspecting Foe increases crit chance by 50% against disabled foes

Sundering burst gives extra vuln on crit.

Burst Precision gives 100% crit on Burst

 

And that's without touching on all conditions or condition-affecting stats that apply on crit or benefit from higher crit.

 

I think what riles the community is that this is very 2012 GW2 design.

In 2012, because of the philosophy of the game being "No Holy Trinity", a lot of traits were expected to do double duty in order to promote builds that did a little bit of everything instead of heavily specialising.

 

And to be honest, I quite like that approach. It means there's less reliance on boons and more focus on self-sustain through good all round stats.

But the problem is that Warrior has pretty much stayed like this while other professions have move on to a more... "traditional" MMO style of play through player pressure over the years gradually shifting GW2 back towards the trinity.

 

Hell, you even have players now requesting that taunt gets buffed in order to provide a more traditional tank-like role.

Personally, I hate that MMO warrior stereotype, finding the entire idea ridiculous. All the best sword & sorcery features warriors being unstoppable forces, canny, agile fighters that are deadly in close combat.

I can't think of a more efficient way of killing this power fantasy than by making the warrior a passive sponge who simply stands still soaking up damage.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

"we found the code for picking up banners, we didn't find the code for the old banner skills"

I really think that this is what happened...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

36 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I think I've mentioned before, but at first glance, Arms appears to be the crit trait line.

 

To play Devil's Advocate, prior to this patch:

Furious Burst granted Fury on burst

Opportunist granted Fury (and adrenaline)

Unsuspecting Foe increases crit chance by 50% against disabled foes

Sundering burst gives extra vuln on crit.

Burst Precision gives 100% crit on Burst

 

And that's without touching on all conditions or condition-affecting stats that apply on crit or benefit from higher crit.

 

I think what riles the community is that this is very 2012 GW2 design.

In 2012, because of the philosophy of the game being "No Holy Trinity", a lot of traits were expected to do double duty in order to promote builds that did a little bit of everything instead of heavily specialising.

 

And to be honest, I quite like that approach. It means there's less reliance on boons and more focus on self-sustain through good all round stats.

But the problem is that Warrior has pretty much stayed like this while other professions have move on to a more... "traditional" MMO style of play through player pressure over the years gradually shifting GW2 back towards the trinity.

 

Hell, you even have players now requesting that taunt gets buffed in order to provide a more traditional tank-like role.

Personally, I hate that MMO warrior stereotype, finding the entire idea ridiculous. All the best sword & sorcery features warriors being unstoppable forces, canny, agile fighters that are deadly in close combat.

I can't think of a more efficient way of killing this power fantasy than by making the warrior a passive sponge who simply stands still soaking up damage.

Arms is indeed the crit line. Back when trait lines gave passive stats Arms gave condition damage and precision for every point invested. Deep Strikes prior to the Specialization introduction caused any unused signet to give +40 precision. But since then all the passive crit chance was removed from the trait line leaving Burst Precision and Unsuspecting Foe. The only real 'on crit' based traits are now Sundering Bursts and Furious. Its more of the condi line now than the crit line.

Personally I'd like to see +45 precision per equipped signet (used or unused) come back.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

🤓

[Fueki.4753]

Does anyone really expect a real explanation from them? Does anyone really expect them to admit "We don't like playing Warrior and we don't want people playing it in organized group play, so we chose nerfs at random."?

We know that is the truth and we know that they won't admit it.

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Lighter.5631]

18 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

I think it was just more "detailed" balance patch notes. Notes that they would normally release if they didn't decide to release simplified notes due to translations to other languages (that's what Anet said 🤷‍♂️).

 

The 5% crit trait being in Arms is a symptom rather than the issue. The fundamental issue is that Arms is simply old and neglected traitline that wasn't adjusted at all for modern standards. It synergyzes better with condi builds and worse with power builds. Since condi builds don't require 100% crit chance, practically all critical increases in Arms are useless for power builds due to bad synergies. One would be better off using other traitline for power builds and fix critical hit chance with stats/runes/sigils/signets/etc. What needs to happen is either:

a) power and critical hit increase traits from Arms (e.g. signet trait, 5% crit increase trait) should be moved to Discipline and Arms should be reworked into pure condi/hybrid traitline with much better synergies for condition builds and condition weapons

b) Arms traitline should be reworked in a way that would provide distinct benefits for power, conditon or hybrid builds but it wouldn't be about critical chance at all (Arms shouldn't be picked to increase critical hit chance) - simply put, Arms traitline should focus more on enhancing weapons and their effects by adding more condition/hybrid synergies

This is all way too simplified and obviously requires to go into more detail but the most important thing is that Arms needs rework... oh wow who would have guessed that. The fact Anet naturally picked Arms as place for 5% crit chance trait shows how incoherent Arms is relative to warrior profession and it simply doesn't work very good with power builds.

 

yes, it is a symptom

 

this just farther negates warrior, anet wanted "overall DPS builds to have better crit chance" and sure add crit chance to crit line make sense, if it's for other classes.

except arms line for warrior is literally garbage, which renders the bonus crit chance meaningless.

 

not many thoughts put behind this global changes, if they even tested it slightest, they would realize warrior does NOT use that line, because that line is completely utterly garbage. they simply wanted this global change and threw it and call it a day.

 

and warrior will just end up having a meaningless buff as long as anet does not rework arms(years now already) and just widen the gaps even more.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Pirana.2601]

In all the years I've been playing MMO's, this bizarre change is right up there with the best of them, or worst in this case. Maybe someone new on staff saw the title 'bannerslave' and really wanted the warrior class to live up to it. 

[Gorem.8104]

13 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

If they actually came out and said:

"Guys. We majorly ducked up. "

I would be fine with it. Just don't pretend there was any logic behind it. 

 

Truth. But I guess that is the problem here, it would require Anet having to actually tell the truth. 

[Bazsi.2734]

So while I disavow all threats and over the top toxicity, whoever designed the June 28 patch actually needs to not design any other balance patches in the future. Reshuffle the teams or something...
You didn't even try to justify what you did to warrior, because someone of you was actually competent enough to know that it's impossible. And I really hope the fix for this is coming soon, as you guys are one disastrous patch away from killing your game.

[DKRathalos.9625]

IMO I think they need 1 more disastrous patch to make ppl realize "It's time to really exodus." now they might lose a lot of player but that will be a good thing.

I am sure they will work harder and better if they lose 50% player base, they will use this as to never deliver bad balance patch again because they will constantly reminded "Hey remember June 2022? we lose 50% player base because we did bad balance patch, let's not do that again."
What anet needs right now is a serious negative reinforcement.

[artharon.9276]

Carrying banners with no skills is essentially making you inactive. Its only fair to add a skill or two there to make your downtime useful. Also checking up and some testing, I struggled to find need for a warrior. Absolutely nothing unique left. I hope they give back some unique things to warriors via banner bundles or stance rework after an eternity later....

[Crimthan.9308]

On 7/12/2022 at 9:51 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Does anyone really expect a real explanation from them? Does anyone really expect them to admit "We don't like playing Warrior and we don't want people playing it in organized group play, so we chose nerfs at random."?

We know that is the truth and we know that they won't admit it.

 

I've literally been thinking this since 2015/16 and even more so when path of fire came out.
I've been really working hard to fight this nagging suspicion, but I have to just come out and say it:
That the idea of "WARrior" is a total affront to those who hate the offense - make "War" mentality that would make a Warrior actually what it is.  That subconsciously, the philosophical leaning of some of the staff responsible for the various nuances of the warrior, has impacted their ability to impartially and objectively give the Warrior exactly what it calls for:
The WILL and SKILL to KILL.

The warrior is an offensive dominator on the battlefield.   Not some afterthought "Bannerslave" that they've been reduced to (which also just got mostly nerfed - SERIOUSLY LOL). 

Ironic that the one elite class that would really push this to the limit is the ONE that has been all but neglected (looking at you BERSERKER) - just look at the June 28 Patch notes.  NOTHING done with Berserker whatsoever.

Arenanet - you can't hide this anymore - you HATE the warrior.  Just admit it already.  

 

Please do yourself, and all of us, and the rest of the GW2 community a favor and hire truly dedicated staff to focus exclusively on the Warrior who truly care, have a passion for, and honor the legacy and future of the Warrior.   Thank you.
 

A little about me:

I've been a die hard fan of Warriors (and rangers) since the beta of Guild Wars 1... I'm guessing that it's maybe because I'm a former marine and grew up with a father who was a Navy SEAL...

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The balance team needs people who play each profession equally, or people who specialize into one profession each, in all game modes. The balance lead themself needs to play every spec in every game mode in order to effectively lead the team in their decisions.

 

[Infinity.2876]

21 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

Carrying banners with no skills is essentially making you inactive. Its only fair to add a skill or two there to make your downtime useful. Also checking up and some testing, I struggled to find need for a warrior. Absolutely nothing unique left. I hope they give back some unique things to warriors via banner bundles or stance rework after an eternity later....

Anet: "but that would make it a kit and you can't have kits with weapon swap"