Can devs make something new and stop changing the old. [Merged]

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Adding a fig leaf to classical nudes is art censorship, this is an example of modern day equaliant and I want anet to stop engaging in this behavior.  

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

13 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

well except the watchknights aren't human, they had inhuman proportions because they are constructs. Besides, all the little gears in the boobs and the butt were visually interesting, instead of flattened smooth plates.  

Considering they were constructs meant for combat, it would make sense for them to not want to leave this much of internal machinery exposed, and hide it under plating 😛

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I wish they'd work on the medium armor. Most of it's fairly shabby, especially the early release stuff. To much of it with exposed arms have forearm coverings that should be part of hand armor skins.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Tekoneiric.6817

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Yes, "polical" reasons are the worst! 😄 Also, it was more like three years ago, not one.

Twisted Marionette change was in 2021, not 2019. It is still 2022.

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

ts interesting, the boos have been reduced, but it kind of has a more feminine pose? like the hips and the posture are "enhaced" could be the world? i dont realy understand why the change though.

Posture is the same btw, it's just angle of the camera accentuates it more on the new model in those images.

[Gibson.4036]

I like the rework. The old one was kinda embarassing.

As in, “I didn’t really need to see inside the head of whoever modeled that,” embarassing.

From a pure lore standpoint, why did the Queen’s engineers decide over-the-top fembot was the way to go, and why did she give approval to the design?

[Dawdler.8521]

32 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Twisted Marionette change was in 2021, not 2019. It is still 2022.

Just to clarify further, kittenless watchknight v2 was released in 2018. They didnt change the marionette then since it was long since obsolete content.

[Tiamat.8254]

The audacity of the dev team. How dare you attempt to bring outdated content up to date and make it worth playing again. What kind of infidel would think of such a thing?!  🙄 #sarcasm

[Saranos.9703]

Rarely comment on the forums but this thread is hilarious so I couldn't resist.

 

Let's clarify things: We are talking about a fully nude woman in stilleto heels that becomes mad, warps itself into a parody of the missionary position, legs wide open, on its back, mouth open in a silent scream which we then proceed to beat up.

 

The male equivalent of that is not Lord Faren in his undies. No one is censoring south sun Kasmeer. The male equivalent would be a nude male robot with a dog collar that goes insane, twists on all fours and attacks you with lasers from its comically exagerrated junk.

 

But nope, the choice to slightly censor this is not due to trying to keep the game to a PG12 rating but rather politics/feminism gone mad...

[Jski.6180]

Anet is very bad at moving on to the next thing before they even done with the old so i cant disagree with your point any more then i do. No.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Considering they were constructs meant for combat, it would make sense for them to not want to leave this much of internal machinery exposed, and hide it under plating 😛

they were meant to be beaten in the jubilee. they are literally dummies to smash to pieces. they only got repurposed for war due to the white mantle attack in season3. in addition to that they quiet literally turning into eldritch horrors "exposing" even more of their insides. clearly having armor for "protection" is not much of factor.

Edited July 20, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

51 minutes ago, Saranos.9703 said:

Rarely comment on the forums but this thread is hilarious so I couldn't resist.

 

Let's clarify things: We are talking about a fully nude woman in stilleto heels that becomes mad, warps itself into a parody of the missionary position, legs wide open, on its back, mouth open in a silent scream which we then proceed to beat up.

 

The male equivalent of that is not Lord Faren in his undies. No one is censoring south sun Kasmeer. The male equivalent would be a nude male robot with a dog collar that goes insane, twists on all fours and attacks you with lasers from its comically exagerrated junk.

 

But nope, the choice to slightly censor this is not due to trying to keep the game to a PG12 rating but rather politics/feminism gone mad...

if you think turning into an clockwork eldritch horror is the same as a woman spreading her legs for private time, then you sir have an issue 

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

10 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

they were meant to be beaten in the jubilee. they are literally dummy to smash

Didn't play the new version yet, but during original run it was literally "hey guys, lemme showcase you newest krytan defenders that will replace human troops on our frontlines so people no longer need to die to defend kryta, and we will do now practical demonstration too!"

They were NOT meant as "literally" dummies for smashing. They were NOT "repurposed" for white Mantle attack during S3, that was first battleready deployment we saw within story, a deployment that had been delayed due to MK1 watchknights getting stolen and turned into clockwork monstrocities by Scarlet - so obviously when your new main combat golem proves suspecible to this sort of shenanigans, you get it back to the design board, and see how to make sure it no longer is vulnerable like that, which obviously delays actuall deployment. Also on additional note - before MK2 watchknights got ready to deploy AN has moved out of the idea of doing "living world" in the way LWS1 did, so even if they got "in lore" deployed sooner to the frontlines, we would not see it easilly, due to the whole "maps frozen in time" shtick.

 

10 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

in addition to that they quiet literally turning into eldrich horrors "exposing" even more of their insides.

Which was result of Scarlet twisting them, not part of original design, nor intent of it's original creators.

10 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

clearly having armor for "protection" is not much of factor.

I mean haven't you see Scarlet at this point of the story? that sylvari was already mad. And since when "mad scientist" would care if the clockwork horror they are creating out of somebody elses tech is adequatelly protected from application of force on it's mechanism?

Edited July 20, 2022 by Lord Trejgon.2809

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

6 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 we will do now practical demonstration too!"

there, dummies.

6 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Which was result of Scarlet twisting them, not part of original design, nor intent of it's original creators.

so? protection still is not relevant. doesn't matter who made that change to monsters

6 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I mean haven't you see Scarlet at this point of the story? that sylvari was already mad. And since when "mad scientist" would care if the clockwork horror they are creating out of somebody elses tech is adequatelly protected from application of force on it's mechanism?

mad, not stupid. also its HER tech. she was commissioned to build them, the DR royalty didn't knew about her plan sure, but scarlet made the Knights. its her design, her tech. or in short: Scarlet did it!

Edited July 20, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[Taclism.2406]

I mean I get the sentiment but god you couldnt find a more cringe way to make your point.

- I agree the old model is better, but only because it feels more horrific, and thus themed appropriate imo.
- I also think polishing old content is probably the thing gw2 needs the most right now, but agree with OP going for updated models / voices over fixing bugs / mechanics is dumb, it should be the last touch of old content updates instead. I'd much rather have new models for every enemy in lw6 / exp4, than reskins like we did with EoD and these reworks no one really asked for

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

1 minute ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

there, dummies.

no, there is clear distinction of making something just to be smashed up, and making something for war, and then have it demonstrate it's fighting capability on arena. In particular, for example, at no point was Logan Thackeray supposed to win it's duel with a watchknight, during the "demonstration", and he would have no issue beating a dummy down, if it was just that.

3 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

so? protection still is not relevant. doesn't matter who made that change to monsters

....

ok so let's try a better paralel there.

let's say hypothetical country A, designs a new battletank. It is meant for war. Now it turns out they are vulnerable to hijacking and I being mad scientist, stole them, and then twisted them to some mad vision of mine - that was unrelated to original vision, and actually exposes alot of machinery to be hit.

What you are doing here is saying that any armor those tanks had in the first place was irrelevant because I stripped them anyway.

5 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

mad, not stupid. also its HER tech. she was commissioned to build them, the DR royalty didn't knew about her plan sure, but scarlet made the Knights. its her design, her tech. 

Except she was NOT comissioned to make them (at least according to original story), she ASKED to get access to them, and got DENIED which is why she made a show of stealing them like she did.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

As long as they don't touch armor sets it's fine.

Just did a quick count on the Wiki, and of the 83 Armor Sets we have on the game, it's around 10 that are very skimpy, then you have some showing bits of skin here and there (some cleavage, some arm and neck, some belly, etc), but the majority is covered, and that's in the humam/norm female section, medium and heavy you see even less of this stuff.

So anyone that says "GW2 sexualize female armor too much", either never played the game or is nitpicking lol.

Here if anyone want to see: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Human_female_light_armor

[Saranos.9703]

28 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

if you think turning into an clockwork eldritch horror is the same as a woman spreading her legs for private time, then you sir have an issue 

 

Of course it's not the same 🙄Note the words 'parody' and 'warped'...

My point is that it's blatently sexual enough to not pass a PG12 rating which is important to consider when transforming temporary content into a permanent story arc.

You assume I dislike the previous models. Personally I thought the sexual element was a brilliant choice to add a level of visceral horror to the twisted abominations and display Scarlet's sadism and depravity. If this game wasn't PG12 I'd be arguing that the censorship negatively impacted the original storytelling. I'd choose the new version for the jennah's watchknights and the old version for Scarlet's Abominations.

But Anet wants to sell the game to as wide an audience as possible and that unfortunately means they need to consider censoring the sexbots.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

33 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

no, there is clear distinction of making something just to be smashed up, and making something for war, and then have it demonstrate it's fighting capability on arena. In particular, for example, at no point was Logan Thackeray supposed to win it's duel with a watchknight, during the "demonstration", and he would have no issue beating a dummy down, if it was just that.

then what is the crown pavilion? representations of old enemies unable to be beaten by the participents? sure.

33 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

ok so let's try a better paralel there.

let's say hypothetical country A, designs a new battletank. It is meant for war. Now it turns out they are vulnerable to hijacking and I being mad scientist, stole them, and then twisted them to some mad vision of mine - that was unrelated to original vision, and actually exposes alot of machinery to be hit.

What you are doing here is saying that any armor those tanks had in the first place was irrelevant because I stripped them anyway.

well the issue is that country A didn't design the tanks but commissioned a weapons manufacture to design and build them for them.  that's how also works in the real world mostly unless it's topsecret military Projects, which we can disregard cause these watch knights anything BUT secret.
So no the mad scientist didn't steal anything. they were literally hired to build them. and according to that hired scientist that design didn't need plate protection. specially with the snuck in designs.

33 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Except she was NOT comissioned to make them (at least according to original story), she ASKED to get access to them, and got DENIED which is why she made a show of stealing them like she did.

how about you actually PLAY the story and read the "hidden" material, maybe even look up the wiki cause that's how it happened. 

regardless the point still stands that the change of the watch knight was unnecessary. it doesn't violate any PG rating (cause other wise this would have caused trouble back then as well) the time and effort put into this to make the changes SHOULD have put somewhere else and if there really care so much about sexualization then they need remove all of it. its not a spectrum. it doesn't matter that "X is "milder" than Z" or that "it's not the same as...". sexualization is sexualization. remove it all or stop changing things with a clear bias.

Edited July 20, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

3 minutes ago, Saranos.9703 said:

 

Of course it's not the same 🙄Note the words 'parody' and 'warped'...

My point is that it's blatently sexual enough to not pass a PG12 rating which is important to consider when transforming temporary content into a permanent story arc.

You assume I dislike the previous models. Personally I thought the sexual element was a brilliant choice to add a level of visceral horror to the twisted abominations and display Scarlet's sadism and depravity. If this game wasn't PG12 I'd be arguing that the censorship negatively impacted the original storytelling. I'd choose the new version for the jennah's watchknights and the old version for Scarlet's Abominations.

But Anet wants to sell the game to as wide an audience as possible and that unfortunately means they need to consider censoring the sexbots.

if it was then LW season 1  back then should have already caused the PG rating to alter. cause the tonic remained even after the season went away.
bureaucrats do not care if a thing is not available by normally playing the game. if its in the code, it's a reason to change the rating. this is why GTA San Andreas had to deal with their unused cut content because of the hot coffee mod.

[Saranos.9703]

Just now, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

if it was then LW season 1  back then should have already caused the PG rating to alter. cause the tonic remained even after the season went away.
bureaucrats do not care if a thing is not available by normally playing the game. if its in the code, it's a reason to change the rating. this is why GTA San Andreas had to deal with their unused cut content because of the hot coffee mod.

 

I could be mistaken but I believe the guidelines are something like can contain nudity but not in a sexual manner. Regardless of lawsuit threat potential I can see many parents not being happy with their kids being exposed to such content. Devs probably made the 'better safe than sorry' decision. GW2 doesn't do overt blood/gore or overly sexual content. At this point we're just arguing over whether the sexbots are inappropriate for that market or not and I daresay we'll just have to accept that we disagree on that point.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

2 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

then what is the crown pavilion? representations of old enemies unable to be beaten by the participents? sure.

Rest of the pavilion is not representation of what watchknights are meant to be, but a reuse of already developped tech for entertainment.

4 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

how about you actually PLAY the story and read the "hidden" material, maybe even look up the wiki cause that's how it happened. 

I did play the story and read all there was to read, within original scope of it. That being said, they could have made alterations I am not aware off.

11 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

regardless the point still stands that the change of the watch knight was unnecessary.

In case you failed to notice at no point I implied it was or not necessary, I just made a lighthearted joke that new design makes more sense from perspective of what it is was supposed to be for, which you felt super necessary to assault and take super seriously.

 

Disclaimer: my responses to you attack on my joke, were 100% serious, even if based on retconned by now lore.

Note: even if scarlet actually took part in building and designing them, it does not change the fact, that the state that ordered the production of those war machines, meant them for actuall fighting.

[Labjax.2465]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

They actually did censor at least one armor set: Female heavy Arah armor.

Mind you, I like this censorship that includes adding more armor/clothing to hide the skin as I felt it was way too skimpy compared to the male version, but it was something done.

 

I won't be surprised at all if we get more in the future. And you know what? That's fine. Games sexualize women too much as it is. But be equal about it - if you desexualize women, desexualize the men too, and don't open interviews saying things like "Faren’s fancy panties will live on forever, so help me."

And if it isn't about desexualizing but polishing or altering for gameplay improvements, don't pretend its something else. ArenaNet never cared for consistency before and the game is so full of inconsistencies that ArenaNet has earned the moniker "consistently inconsistent" so I just cannot believe that, suddenly, out of nowhere, they actually care about consistency with minor things. (Especially since the Twisted Marionette still isn't consistent in its new appearance - every visual of the TM outside of The Mists' WB instance uses the old version still afaik).

When it comes to armor PC can wear, I think if they do anything relating to such going forward, it should be an option split, i.e. female version shows skin where male version does not? split into two versions, revealing and covered, give female version missing covered version and male missing revealing version. Then mail people transmutation charges when the change happens so they can adjust existing appearance if the change impacts their look.

That's how I would do it anyway. Like I do agree with you in that I think there's a legitimate reason to complain about some female armor in this game being uncovered where male is, in ways that are inconsistent. And in some cases, the male version just looks way cooler as a result. But I am also a fan of skimpier armor styles some of the time (kinda depends on my mood and vision of the character) and in general, I think drastically changing long-standing armor people already have is a big no-no practice, regardless of the reason.

In this case, I find it hard to see the issue even on that principle, I guess mainly because it's a friggin metal robot thing NPC and the closest form to it as player armor is a tonic. But I know the elephant in the room here is some people play games in part for... well, you know, that kind of enjoyment. And running from that reality on a game studio's part is silly. Also some people just enjoy the style of looks that show off skin or body definition for reasons that aren't to do with that kind of enjoyment at all. Annoying either group too much is definitely a financial choice that involves losing some money in the long-term.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

21 minutes ago, Saranos.9703 said:

 

I could be mistaken but I believe the guidelines are something like can contain nudity but not in a sexual manner. Regardless of lawsuit threat potential I can see many parents not being happy with their kids being exposed to such content. Devs probably made the 'better safe than sorry' decision. GW2 doesn't do overt blood/gore or overly sexual content. At this point we're just arguing over whether the sexbots are inappropriate for that market or not and I daresay we'll just have to accept that we disagree on that point.

don't you think 8 years later is a bit to late to make that argument?

Edited July 20, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[Saranos.9703]

1 minute ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

don't you think 8 years alter is a bit to late to make that argument?

Dude, I really can't be bothered arguing with you on this point anymore. The transistion from temporary content that few people had the chance to play that lasted about 2 weeks to permanent is when things like this get reviewed/updated. Could they have kept the old tonic the way it was and been fine: yes. Do I understand why they would choose to update the forms in the story: also yes.

[Teratus.2859]

14 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Huh. Ok. Looks like they made it more realistic representation of female body. Struggling to see that as "censored."

Doesn't look that to me, just looks more detailed in general.

 

While I do get where OP is coming from and that most certainly is a needless thing in some games these days I also have to admit that I do prefer the new model.

I am one of the voices which for years has called for improving the older content so I am more inclined to think that these model changes have little to nothing to do with "removing sexualisations of female characters" and see it more as what Anet claims it is.. simply bringing an older model upto a more modern standard, which is what they just did with 3 world bosses as well.
 

I am aware that Anet has done some needlessly pointless changes because of the "sexualisation" thing in the past though, like Female idle animations so yes maybe they did take some liberty to change that with this model too but either way it still looks better overall and I don't think it's as big of a change as OP is making it out to be.
That said, I do agree with them that old art should still be respected and censorship in general is something that I also believe can go right to hell where it belongs.
And I also agree with what Konig also said regarding the double standards of oversexualising men, especially when it is done by people who claim to have a problem with it being done to women.
That kind of hypocrisy is much to common on the internet these days and it is both annoyingly tedious and very transparent and hollow.
And it most certainly isn't the "equality" such people often claim to fight for either.

That imo is a far more irritating problem than a simple model being updated and loosing some of it's more "defined" elements... not that I particularly cared about those elements in the first place anyway, but that's how the original artists designed them so it is what it is.