Can devs make something new and stop changing the old. [Merged]

[Doggie.3184]

I think the new ones look better, personally. More gender-neutral since there isn't a male version.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

If you think the new Mark 1 watchknight is completely indistinguishable from the mark 2, you should check your eyes. They are distinct from one another lol.

So its a MK III then? Then why not still have MK I?

If the model file size and complexity was a problem (all of a sudden after 5+ years) then I am pretty sure Anet could have done something to just improve the MK I version so it still looked similar to before, instead of like MK II.

Unless the argument here is that Anet are incapable and no longer have the skills to repeat the modelling of the old days.

Considering they are completely incapable of fixing the missing cornerstone on garri DBL which is literally just an already existing box with different textures and has been broken for 6+ years, that might explain alot.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Farohna.6247]

23 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Comic book sales for Marvel and D.C. are at all time lows, I really think they are failing to appeal to their target audience.  I really thought western comics shared the same 18 to 25 year old target audience.  Twenty years ago, when I would see manga it was all shojo, and grouped in with visual novels that catered to teen girls, My little sisters certainly bought enough of the stuff at the time.

I think the art styles and stories are often more compelling and for Western audiences it's something fresh.  Also there are so many genres that there's bound to be something for everyone.  

[Zebulous.2934]

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I think the art styles and stories are often more compelling and for Western audiences it's something fresh.  Also there are so many genres that there's bound to be something for everyone.  

I... don't think that you are disagreeing with me?  I feel that the restrictions that western comics and western games have placed on themselves is hurting their business.  I point out that eastern media have not restricted themselves in those ways and are selling better in the west. 
  Would not a larger selection of themes allow for a larger more diverse audience?  Limiting visual, and story, themes necessarily limits one's audience to a fraction of the total potential audience. A smaller audience should mean fewer sales.

[Zebulous.2934]

yes, I wandered into a trap.  There exists negative value as well. Having themes and visuals that people don't want would drive them away from media. Still, that is why you look at the money trail rather than the political smoke and mirrors.

[Teratus.2859]

5 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

quiet the contradictions here. "modern standards" IS the go to excuse to change things from something that was visually titillating or appealing to something less or rather outright removing it. and in that context it IS the same as censoring.

It's not a contradiction, that's what I was arguing to you.

You were and still are implying the two terms mean the same thing, but they don't.

Hiding one action behind the words of another doesn't make them the same, it's just dubious and deceptive world play, a common problem we see all too often these days.

[Teratus.2859]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So far, from what I've been able to find, four things have not been affected:

• All three related Miniatures
• The Marionette corpse in Lornar's Pass
• The Marionette in The Departing
• Assault Knights in Nightmare Fractal CM

Humorously, MAMA was altered despite being a different model (retextured like Assault Knights). All other Watchknights, even in The Departing, was altered.

So yeah, it was actually consistent before they updated the models with this release. It was this release that made it inconsistent, ironies of ironies.

I do like me some irony tbh xD

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

When we've had armor like this in reality, I 1000% believe there'd be boob armor or exposed thighs and bellies in reality if women were on the battlefield regularly.

The only reason why boob armor isn't historical is because women didn't fight, not because it would be impractical as armor (I mean, it would be, but that wouldn't stop people).

I've heard plenty of arguments like that as well some from women who have had to wear some kind of armour for a job/acting role, but mainly from cosplayers who obviously make their own and have to deal with the lack of chest space in certain armour designs.

My wife is also a cosplayer and has also mentioned this to me in the past as well.
So from my experience quite a lot of women see boob armour as a positive thing overall because it's simply a lot more comfortable for them to wear.. which certainly makes a ton of common sense to me lol

Edited July 21, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[Gorem.8104]

Oh I see, from the title I thought it was about them focusing on old content to try and retain the few players left playing, but I see its actually about them censoring and changing things that shouldn't be changed, as it disrespects the people who designed them before. But I doubt Anet cares about that. They went and made both Watchwork tonics look the same to avoid a robot skin looking more menacing I mean having features females have. 

I mean whats next, Anet goes the complete route and does body type A and B just to truly show how dumb they are and how out of touch they are with reality. None of us would be alive today without Males and Females being together, and humankind would be all dead. We'd end as a species but no lets change female features because that's what people want while we leave muscular men with no shirts up anyway because standards don't exist unless you have double standards. 

Its such a dumb thing for Anet to finger point and "decide" what needs to be fixed from the past, instead of just releasing it as it is. And note to Anet - a lot of men play, and many of them do like looking at pretty woman, so doing this is once again you actively trying to make less money 🙂 While offending woman at the same time. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Oh I see, from the title I thought it was about them focusing on old content to try and retain the few players left playing, but I see its actually about them censoring and changing things that shouldn't be changed, as it disrespects the people who designed them before. But I doubt Anet cares about that. They went and made both Watchwork tonics look the same to avoid a robot skin looking more menacing I mean having features females have. 

I mean whats next, Anet goes the complete route and does body type A and B just to truly show how dumb they are and how out of touch they are with reality. None of us would be alive today without Males and Females being together, and humankind would be all dead. We'd end as a species but no lets change female features because that's what people want while we leave muscular men with no shirts up anyway because standards don't exist unless you have double standards. 

Its such a dumb thing for Anet to finger point and "decide" what needs to be fixed from the past, instead of just releasing it as it is. And note to Anet - a lot of men play, and many of them do like looking at pretty woman, so doing this is once again you actively trying to make less money 🙂 While offending woman at the same time. 

"Anet is ruining the game by removing booba from robot" If only this was the biggest issue in the game.

[Yello.3406]

I mean... it is kind of a weird place to complain about missing boobies. On a robot? srsly? On the other hand you can see a path the company is headed and I don't like it either. It is still very mild in my opinion but the signs are there.

Also i own 3 costumes i bought for the nice packaging of the rear end and i will strongly protest if they change the look of my girls. But I doubt this is going to happen. In fact, I think they should put some effort in removing the ugly butt-capes and make more pants for light armor (elegy-armor was a blessing).

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

17 minutes ago, Yello.3406 said:

I mean... it is kind of a weird place to complain about missing boobies. On a robot? srsly? On the other hand you can see a path the company is headed and I don't like it either. It is still very mild in my opinion but the signs are there.

Also i own 3 costumes i bought for the nice packaging of the rear end and i will strongly protest if they change the look of my girls. But I doubt this is going to happen. In fact, I think they should put some effort in removing the ugly butt-capes and make more pants for light armor (elegy-armor was a blessing).

They also need to do something about the overwhelmingly boringness of male armors and outfits, not just because it limits expansion on male characters, but becaause it spills over onto female Asura and Charr too. Example: The Pit Fighter armor is one of the best in the game for both genders.

 

The worst possible combination is medium-armored female Asura or Charr. Trying to get anything to look decent on them is like pulling your teeth out.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Ryou.2398]

10 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Comic book sales for Marvel and D.C. are at all time lows, I really think they are failing to appeal to their target audience.  I really thought western comics shared the same 18 to 25 year old target audience.  Twenty years ago, when I would see manga it was all shojo, and grouped in with visual novels that catered to teen girls, My little sisters certainly bought enough of the stuff at the time.

Yea what he said was a load of misinformation there are huge indie projects to counter the properganda nonsense.

[Kalavier.1097]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So its a MK III then? Then why not still have MK I?

If the model file size and complexity was a problem (all of a sudden after 5+ years) then I am pretty sure Anet could have done something to just improve the MK I version so it still looked similar to before, instead of like MK II.

Again, I don't understand how you cannot tell the difference between the new mark 1 model and the mark 2. It's... pretty obvious. Not only is one golden, but the Mark 2 is more armored with less exposed gears and the spine showing.

There is no mark 3. There is mark 1, and mark 2. That's it.

[Rauderi.8706]

Don't worry, ANet, I give you permission to update anything you want. 

 

Bonus points if that includes the entire game's attributes and itemization. 

[ShionKreth.1542]

Instead of disagreeing with you, I'm going to characterize your request based on your preferences to be something negative that negatively reflects your character. 

[Zebulous.2934]

There is a tangential discussion in the Watchknight thread about How many models of watchknight there are and what to call them.  I would comment in that thread, however that would only bring that thread closer to becoming locked.  I have noticed that when threads become more tangent than topic those threads tend to become locked.
So this thread is about semantics about Watchknights.
For those of you refusing to use the Mk III lable for the updated watchknight: How do you feel about people Using Mark Zero as the label for the original watchknight design?  Would that alleviate the confusion? 
Mk 0 sounds better anyway.  Since Roman numerals don't have a zero we can even cleverly pretend that it is a letter O for original.

I certainly understand that people would refuse to recognize the updated watchknights as true mk I.  It does appear to be using a different character model.  
I can understand why people refuse to recognize a mk III watchknight because it isn't cannon.
I think mk 0 neatly sidesteps the issue. If the original watchknight design is no longer cannon, a non cannon label can hardly be argued against.
Still, rather than argue on "principle," and get threads locked, I say just use Mk 0.  
Sometimes when you lose, you win.  Give them their hollow victory, and lets move on.

"What is that uncanny robot?! " 
oh didn't you know?  That is a "model 0" watchknight.  Rare these days. They were standard for years: bringing shivers to the back of the neck by activating neurons at the wrong time, for the sake of horror.
"What happened to them?" 
Well the powers that be decided to depart from the uncanny horror route and replaced all the watchknights with a different version.  Whenever you come across a mk 0 just think of it as a sort of prototype.
 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

19 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It's not a contradiction, that's what I was arguing to you.

You were and still are implying the two terms mean the same thing, but they don't.

Hiding one action behind the words of another doesn't make them the same, it's just dubious and deceptive world play, a common problem we see all too often these days.

still in denial eh? okay. lemme put it this way. JUST BECAUSE they do not use the same exact wording but it results in the same thing for the same reasons then IT IS THE SAME.

AND YES
it IS deceptive. it IS dubious word play. that's the point of using these words. it's intentionally left ambiguous what "modern standards" even means in the context of the watch knights models. even with the marionette, it was never actually explained what exactly was not "up to modern standards". 

[Teratus.2859]

48 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

still in denial eh? okay. lemme put it this way. JUST BECAUSE they do not use the same exact wording but it results in the same thing for the same reasons then IT IS THE SAME.

AND YES
it IS deceptive. it IS dubious word play. that's the point of using these words. it's intentionally left ambiguous what "modern standards" even means in the context of the watch knights models. even with the marionette, it was never actually explained what exactly was not "up to modern standards". 

It's not denial if you didn't understand what I was trying say.

My point still stands that just because someone misuses a word doesn't mean that word is forever redefined as the same thing as something else.

 

Modern standards does not mean censorship, and censorship is not a modern standard.
Censorship is a regressive and ugly concept that only plays antagonist to free speech and free expression.

Modern standards encompasses a multitude of things and is often misused to hide act censorship.

By calling them one and the same thing you are contributing to the misuse of the term by associating the two.

That was my point.

[Voyant.1327]

On 7/21/2022 at 9:32 AM, Zebulous.2934 said:

People say all sorts of things, but their purchase history is where you find the truth.

Its the root of all of this issue. Its not morality its finances. Corporations do not have feelings to care about individuals, they have bank accounts and bills to send people they don't want to offend.

Its less "because its right" and more "because they fear losing your dollar." 

So the motivations are based on being afraid of backlash & to be financially rewarded.

And I don't know if society being driven by fear & greed is exactly what I'd call progress.

[Zebulous.2934]

 I tried to take some of the pressure off this thread, they merged it anyway, ah well.

[Mik.3401]

To me the new dev team is not really a bunch of passionate game designers and artists. They are rather employees just doing what they are told to, and when they are required to be creative they either struggle or copy paste styles from other games. There is a huge creative crisis there it seems (among other crises). And to think this is the same studio which was one of the most creative and innovative game studios back in the day. Mind blown

Edited July 22, 2022 by Mik.3401

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

3 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It's not denial if you didn't understand what I was trying say.

My point still stands that just because someone misuses a word doesn't mean that word is forever redefined as the same thing as something else.

 

Modern standards does not mean censorship, and censorship is not a modern standard.
Censorship is a regressive and ugly concept that only plays antagonist to free speech and free expression.

Modern standards encompasses a multitude of things and is often misused to hide act censorship.

By calling them one and the same thing you are contributing to the misuse of the term by associating the two.

That was my point.

of course im not saying the text book definitions are changed because of it. but its PR SPEAK. its as unspecific as possible to not be pinned down by technicality and is used as euphemism. get that in your thick skull.

And yes it MEANS censorship cause it removed the old superficial look but declare some sort of technical reason that they for some reason can not further elaborate on other then calling vaguely "technical reason".
"Modern standards" is a flowerily way to say " yeah we removed booba for no good reason". (unless you can find a really good explanation by anet how and why they needed to change all watch knights this way and its not just "because of technical issues". spoilers you wont)

that is why it is means the SAME THING.

[Gibson.4036]

It's only censorship if it wasn't ArenaNet's choice.

[Derktarlms.6213]

I don't understand why to change the designs, it was fear or it was intentional and my niece didn't even ask before, hopefully it's not because of sexual or political reasons, I hope it's not dramatic for the future...

[Ashen.2907]

I was interested in pursuing the achievement in the new LS1 rerelease until I saw that the changes to the model affect the permanent tonic as well. The AP are meaningless to me, as is a censored reward. 

New content on hold while LS is being rereleased and the studio thinks that spending resources on censoring old  content is how they should be spending their time and manpower. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Ashen.2907