Can devs make something new and stop changing the old. [Merged]

[Sobx.1758]

39 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

It's a vicious circle that continues to this day.  This thread is only about the most obvious change, but doesn't mention the four hundred kabillatrillion changes that occurred.  The watchknights try to match the marionette, who tries to match the watchknights, ad infinitum.  They say that the last black hole of the universe will die out before the cycle ends.

 

 

 

Yes, this is a /jk

tongue-in-cheek and all

Great, so since we have your "/jk take", now lets get a "non-jk" one 😉 

I mean, I'm completely aware that it isn't necessarily it, but saying that "censoring robo-bobs is a ridiculous conspiracy theory" while all you have is a "it was obviously censored to match the previously censored model*, so it's not censoring!" take is... well, ridiculous and not exactly too well-thought out, from my understanding 😄

 

*of marionette

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Linken.6345]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

How many armor skins have been actively edited after being released thus far?

I think the grand total is... 2 that I know of. In all of GW2? Arah female heavy dungeon armor apparently got a minor tweak, and Elegant Canthan outfit got a tweak.

Well there were that flamkissed armor that looked to close to human cultural light tier 3 

[Roksiel.6123]

I love how the shills brush off any complaints saying how it doesn't matter, that people who complaim are weirdos into robot booba or that we are grifters who only log in or post on the forum to complain about GW2. I have played GW2 for at least 5 or 6 years (could be more, but I don't remember exactly, and I do not plan to log in either to check because I said I am done with the game unless they change the tonic back to what it was), I made twelve fanart paintings for this game, and I have been playing almost daily since I got the game.

I had just gotten Aurora and Vision and was about to get the legendary amulet too, and next I was planning to go back to WvW to have some fun and get the two legendary rings from there (I've gotten the armor and the backpack long ago). After that, I was planning to go back to the new maps and explore to my heart's content.

Despite all that, that one tonic shattered any illusion of owning anything in this game. Nothing feels safe anymore. All it took is one thing to be changed (that I liked a lot), for me to lose that trust. I don't care about the enemies (though I think those shouldn't have been changed either), but if my wardrobe isn't safe, why should I even bother? How can I know they won't 'improve' or 'bring to modern standards' something else that I love? I can't know, and thus I see no point in wasting any more time with something that can be taken away from me at any time.

 

[Zebulous.2934]

It is true that people use past instances to try to predict future actions.  That often works.  There is a question about how relevant data is the further back you go.  Is six year old data relevant to a prediction of current trends?
 I argue that the studio producing Gw2 today isn't the same studio that made the game.  It isn't even the same studio it was last year.  Staff members leave, some come back, new staff is added.  The old staff are influenced by the new staff and vise versa.  Then you have Steam's influence and Steam's rating system.

Making an argument that relies on what choices Anet made over the years doesn't hold much weight for me.  Anet's current string of decisions This year feels far more relevant.

 

I want Anet to understand that my wardrobe is full of choices that I made, things I spent time and money on.  I feel those choices should be respected.  I want Anet to consider the wardrobe in the future when they make limited visual, or sweeping stylistic, changes to the game.

I am not going to quit the game over a tonic that I didn't particularly like, but I will be watching for more changes, and collecting examples to point to in the future.

 

[Reborn.2934]

Quote

Can devs make something new and stop changing the old. 

 

i disagree and agree same time with the title.

 

gw2 after 3 expansions is suffering from a sundrome that i call it PvE Frankenstein Syndrome and there is a need to address the issues this syndrome is creating..  i haven't mentioned it yet in my site (the previous link) but this issue is really annoying and makes the term PvE Frankenstein more valid than i have described until now.

 

The old and new skills icons design . 

 

maybe is a detail for many people, but it is obvious when someone uses 2 different weapons (one from legacy and one from expansion) or use mix utility skills from both legacy and expansions that the skills look different and the old ones needs redesign or just a reshade with the new color pallete, but ... come on . 

 

Skill Bar and the Skills icons are always in front of the eyes of ALL Players , in every game-mode and All the Time. 

I really can't explain why they haven't redesigned the skills to not look different as they look now.. Is this too dificult? i really don't know!

 

And yes, i agree that the voices or whatever changes they want to do in living story are the minor issues for ALL or the majority of players.

 

/sarcasmon

p.s. also i want to say bravo to the briliant mind that changed the dificulty of champions, word bosses and legendaries. You helped us logoff more often from the game and we saved money from the electricty that it is more expensive now in whole Europe.

/sarcasmoff

Edited July 28, 2022 by Reborn.2934

[Kalavier.1097]

21 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well there were that flamkissed armor that looked to close to human cultural light tier 3 

Which was changed due to the players yelling about it actually. Because it used the human light t3 look, so everybody pointed out how it not only devalued the original (because it was cheaper to get) but also made it no longer human exclusive.

So it got changed because of that.

On 7/27/2022 at 3:30 AM, Roksiel.6123 said:

I love how the shills brush off any complaints saying how it doesn't matter, that people who complaim are weirdos into robot booba or that we are grifters who only log in or post on the forum to complain about GW2. I have played GW2 for at least 5 or 6 years (could be more, but I don't remember exactly, and I do not plan to log in either to check because I said I am done with the game unless they change the tonic back to what it was), I made twelve fanart paintings for this game, and I have been playing almost daily since I got the game.

I had just gotten Aurora and Vision and was about to get the legendary amulet too, and next I was planning to go back to WvW to have some fun and get the two legendary rings from there (I've gotten the armor and the backpack long ago). After that, I was planning to go back to the new maps and explore to my heart's content.

Despite all that, that one tonic shattered any illusion of owning anything in this game. Nothing feels safe anymore. All it took is one thing to be changed (that I liked a lot), for me to lose that trust. I don't care about the enemies (though I think those shouldn't have been changed either), but if my wardrobe isn't safe, why should I even bother? How can I know they won't 'improve' or 'bring to modern standards' something else that I love? I can't know, and thus I see no point in wasting any more time with something that can be taken away from me at any time.

 

I love how you just brush off any opposing viewpoint by calling it a "shill". I've seen this behavior before and it's kinda sad because it often boils into "You don't hate this, you are a shill" and doesn't produce any discussion because the person doesn't want one, they just want to scream and rage.

 

Anyway, so you were using that tonic daily since you got it I assume? Every single time you logged in you clicked the tonic? If so, I can understand your dislike and reaction. If not, and you rarely used it, I question why you react so strongly.

Because over the years, I can think of four instances of "wardrobe related items being changed" One being flamekissed light, which was changed because of player reaction. Arah heavy female apparently got a minor edit but that was at LEAST 7+ years ago and was so minor nobody cared, as I've been playing since launch and never even knew about it.

You had the Elegant canthan outfit which got tweaked but nobody cared unless you were actively peeking under the flaps.
And then the marionette, which is what was actually changed and the watchknight was simply a copy paste of the model.

 

So over 10ish years of content, we've had a grand total of 4 pieces being changed. And the marionette model/watchknight model change was done with no grand statements or announcements of changing anything because "problematic" or whatever language is used. No indication of anything further.  And yet people are actively screaming about a crusade to scrub everything clean?

I've still not seen any statement from Anet indicating or implying they are editing anything else, even though they've had amply chances to edit or remove armors.

On 7/27/2022 at 10:02 AM, Zebulous.2934 said:

It is true that people use past instances to try to predict future actions.  That often works.  There is a question about how relevant data is the further back you go.  Is six year old data relevant to a prediction of current trends?
 I argue that the studio producing Gw2 today isn't the same studio that made the game.  It isn't even the same studio it was last year.  Staff members leave, some come back, new staff is added.  The old staff are influenced by the new staff and vise versa.  Then you have Steam's influence and Steam's rating system.

Making an argument that relies on what choices Anet made over the years doesn't hold much weight for me.  Anet's current string of decisions This year feels far more relevant.

So in the past two years we've had a total of TWO wardrobe edits. One was Elegant Canthan tonic that literally you'd only know about if you actively peaked under the flap.

The other was the watchknight tonic. The watchknight tonic and Marionette were changed with zero announcement or declaration of future changes to armors or such, yet people act as if there is hard proof they are coming.

On 7/27/2022 at 10:02 AM, Zebulous.2934 said:

I want Anet to understand that my wardrobe is full of choices that I made, things I spent time and money on.  I feel those choices should be respected.  I want Anet to consider the wardrobe in the future when they make limited visual, or sweeping stylistic, changes to the game.

I am not going to quit the game over a tonic that I didn't particularly like, but I will be watching for more changes, and collecting examples to point to in the future.
 

Well, you didn't spend money on the watchknight mark 1 tonic, besides maybe a few gold if you didn't get it from achievements originally.

This tonic is example 4 of wardrobe charges that I know of spanning back to the literal launch of the game lol.

I'd understand the viewpoint more if there was some posts from Arenanet about the marionette/watchknight changes which contained wording that strongly implies they'll be editing armor skins/content, but as far as I've been able to find nothing exists like that.

[Zebulous.2934]

I agree that the flamekissed armor is not an issue, though at the time, some of the player base protested the protesters.  After all, they had a human exclusive armor on their sylvari, or their charr, it must have been fun.

None of the other edits were made with any sort of warning at all.  Therefore; I would not expect Anet to give warning for future wardrobe edits.
  

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

19 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I love how you just brush off any opposing viewpoint by calling it a "shill". I've seen this behavior before and it's kinda sad because it often boils into "You don't hate this, you are a shill" and doesn't produce any discussion because the person doesn't want one, they just want to scream and rage.

Anyway, so you were using that tonic daily since you got it I assume? Every single time you logged in you clicked the tonic? If so, I can understand your dislike and reaction. If not, and you rarely used it, I question why you react so strongly.

Because over the years, I can think of four instances of "wardrobe related items being changed" One being flamekissed light, which was changed because of player reaction. Arah heavy female apparently got a minor edit but that was at LEAST 7+ years ago and was so minor nobody cared, as I've been playing since launch and never even knew about it.

You had the Elegant canthan outfit which got tweaked but nobody cared unless you were actively peeking under the flaps.
And then the marionette, which is what was actually changed and the watchknight was simply a copy paste of the model.

because they CAN be brushed off as shills cause i have not seen ONE person that didn't mentioned weirdness or being cringe in a direct or subtle way when they are for the change in this discussion. because those who do nto care do not even take part in the conversation to begin with.

and people DID complain about the marionette visual change as well, the threads just got deleted as it got a bit more heated.

and flamekissed is not even in the same ball park, this is an entirely different story. the change was not to cover up skin or reduce visual appeal, it was a matter of exclusivity of a skin variation at the time. WHICH nowadays is irrelevant in my opinion. we have so many Gemstore outfits now that should be cultural ( sheamoor academy anyone?) and yet charr asura and slyvari can wear them without issue, which i do not mind. So i say; let cultural armor be allowed to be worn by all races. Heck we got constantly non human NPCs wear human cultural armor pieces. (though there might be problems with charr armor but since when did anet care about clipping when its related to charr stuff)

And about the canthan elegant outfit. you can find threads and discussions about it, mostly talking about what dye fits which skin tone the best to achieve the same effect from before the change. so people using outfits also do not really like that change that well either, they're just more subtle about it.

[Farohna.6247]

On 7/25/2022 at 6:52 PM, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Why are people getting so deep over a model change that was barely even used?

It ruins their fantasy and role-play and they don't get to imagine giant robot boobs with gear nipples.  

[Dante.1508]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:53 PM, Farohna.6247 said:

It ruins their fantasy and role-play and they don't get to imagine giant robot boobs with gear nipples.  

No it worries them that the game they started at is turning into yet another avenue for Western social politics..

Edited July 30, 2022 by Dante.1508

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

18 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

No it worries them that the game they started at is turning into yet another avenue for Western social politics..

and that nothing they put effort into or actually swiped the credit card for just changes to be something they do not like

[sorudo.9054]

so instead of improving old content all they do is censor the game?

.....

[The Greyhawk.9107]

9 hours ago, sorudo.9054 said:

so instead of improving old content all they do is censor the game?

.....

Well even I wouldn't go that far, but with what long standing issues that do exist ingame I don't understand how they justify something like this when they could put work elsewhere, on top of altering or censoring of old content being bad in and of itself.

[Smoky.5348]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:27 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Anyway, so you were using that tonic daily since you got it I assume? Every single time you logged in you clicked the tonic?

That is a moot question based on hyperbole. It is a combat tonic, not one of those skill-stripping ones that can only reasonably be used in towns or when you're doing a pacifist run of hearts. It's a tonic that lets you use your skills mid-combat, so yes, it is highly possible for someone to make a character just to use that tonic as their main look, or even for someone to just use it a lot in general. I've been using the Olmakhan tonic for the last month, for instance, so do not presume that this vast playerbase can't have people who use transformation tonics.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Smoky.5348 said:

That is a moot question based on hyperbole. It is a combat tonic, not one of those skill-stripping ones that can only reasonably be used in towns or when you're doing a pacifist run of hearts. It's a tonic that lets you use your skills mid-combat, so yes, it is highly possible for someone to make a character just to use that tonic as their main look, or even for someone to just use it a lot in general. I've been using the Olmakhan tonic for the last month, for instance, so do not presume that this vast playerbase can't have people who use transformation tonics.

 

I have never implied there are people who aren't using the tonics.

I merely asked if the level of concern/reaction was because they constantly used this tonic, or if they hardly used it and are just reacting as if it was a core part of their characters look that was changed.

[Smoky.5348]

23 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I have never implied there are people who aren't using the tonics.

I merely asked if the level of concern/reaction was because they constantly used this tonic, or if they hardly used it and are just reacting as if it was a core part of their characters look that was changed.

You're asking the individual, Roksiel, the question? Hmm, even then l don't understand because they pretty clearly said the wardrobe doesn't feel safe anymore. While the Flamekissed armor is debatable and the other two skins were very minor, Watchknight is a complete model overhaul. As l think l said before, this creates precedent. ANET put no concern toward people who want to keep the original look and failed to separate the models and now it's gone. And when l remember how important Fashion Wars is to some, this is a major blow.

However, l get the feeling this Watchknight change was done out of some weird grudge against the original model. I can't figure out a concrete reason as to why, but they just really hate it and want to erase it from existence. As such, I want to suspect that any other major wardrobe changes are indeed safe...but I can't know that for certain, and the worry is now always there. (And even then, this is really bad because why do they have such a grudge that they had to remove it? But now, l'm talking in circles)

[Roksiel.6123]

It is irrelevant how often or how rare I used the tonic. I also had no idea of any of the other changes, like the Flamekissed skins and such. They were all things that happened before I started playing the game, thus also irrelevant. I also didn't know they changed the marionette enemies (I didn't play the LS1 episodes), and while that is annoying, they didn't mess with something I had in my wardrobe. 

The issue is this. Imagine you bought a painting. It's hanging nicely on your living room wall. While you were away, the artist who made it broke into your house and sneakily painted over some areas. The artist might think they improved it and even claim such a thing, but you liked the painting exactly the way it was when you bought it. Now imagine that same artist offers you another one of their paintings. Why would you buy anything from them ever again? How can you know they won't break into your house again and ruin another painting? You don't, and therein lies the problem.

I can see how sad my friend is when he mentions the game to me, and how he wishes I play again because we did so many things together. We encouraged one another to keep going and suffer through the grind of Aurora and Vision (the latest in a long string of things). He mentioned the festival. I can't say I care anymore, but today I logged in for the first time since I noticed the tonic change and did dailies. I wanted to see how playing the game makes me feel, if perhaps I overreacted. What I felt was bitterness while playing the game, like hanging out with someone who betrayed you. You can't trust them anymore. The trust is gone and it will never come back.

[kharmin.7683]

4 hours ago, Roksiel.6123 said:

 

The issue is this. Imagine you bought a painting. It's hanging nicely on your living room wall. While you were away, the artist who made it broke into your house and sneakily painted over some areas. The artist might think they improved it and even claim such a thing, but you liked the painting exactly the way it was when you bought it. Now imagine that same artist offers you another one of their paintings. Why would you buy anything from them ever again? How can you know they won't break into your house again and ruin another painting? You don't, and therein lies the problem.

 

Except, in GW2, you don't own anything.  Anet owns all of the content.  They grant you a license to use it.

[Katsugankz.7156]

Ya'll sure are mad they removed some ugly robot titties

[Smoky.5348]

On 8/4/2022 at 9:13 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

Except, in GW2, you don't own anything.  Anet owns all of the content.  They grant you a license to use it.

That argument was invalid before and it is invalid now. If you really were clever enough to know how "owning" a game really works, then you should also know no one refers to their ownership literally. They mean their right to keep what they have because they paid money or effort for it. And, don't act like your knowledge of licenses proves you're above your own emotions if they were to replace something you actually do care about.

On 8/4/2022 at 11:21 AM, Katsugankz.7156 said:

Ya'll sure are mad they removed some ugly robot titties

Y'all sure are good at not reading people's posts. The only people who've brought up the bobas have been people looking for the first strawman they can get or just plain memers cracking a joke.

[Ashen.2907]

30 minutes ago, Smoky.5348 said:

That argument was invalid before and it is invalid now. If you really were clever enough to know how "owning" a game really works, then you should also know no one refers to their ownership literally. They mean their right to keep what they have because they paid money or effort for it. And, don't act like your knowledge of licenses proves you're above your own emotions if they were to replace something you actually do care about.

Y'all sure are good at not reading people's posts. The only people who've brought up the bobas have been people looking for the first strawman they can get or just plain memers cracking a joke.

This.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Smoky.5348 said:

That argument was invalid before and it is invalid now. If you really were clever enough to know how "owning" a game really works, then you should also know no one refers to their ownership literally. They mean their right to keep what they have because they paid money or effort for it. And, don't act like your knowledge of licenses proves you're above your own emotions if they were to replace something you actually do care about.

 

But that's just it.  No one has any rights to any content, purchased or otherwise.  Anet can pull the plug on GW2 at any time, and no one would keep anything or get any "refund" for money spent over the years.

You clearly do not understand how this model works.

[Gibson.4036]

Reminds me of gen xers screaming that Lucas ruined their childhood.

Or the pearl clutchers wringing their hands that the Seuss estate chose to stop publishing a couple of his books.

[Katsugankz.7156]

6 hours ago, Smoky.5348 said:

Y'all sure are good at not reading people's posts. The only people who've brought up the bobas have been people looking for the first strawman they can get or just plain memers cracking a joke.

Nah, ya'll only brought this up because of the robot titties and you know it. This whole thing is some really stupid theater outrage over something that straight up doesn't matter. Things in MMOs change all the kitten time and everything in game is subject to change, going into an MMO without fully understanding this is just straight up stupid.

 

Anyone who has enough of an issue with this to actually whine on the forums about it is a complete tool.

[Labjax.2465]

15 minutes ago, Katsugankz.7156 said:

Nah, ya'll only brought this up because of the robot titties and you know it. This whole thing is some really stupid theater outrage over something that straight up doesn't matter. Things in MMOs change all the kitten time and everything in game is subject to change, going into an MMO without fully understanding this is just straight up stupid.

 

Anyone who has enough of an issue with this to actually whine on the forums about it is a complete tool.

Naw, I think the underlying principle (unwanted change to an existing acquired item) is valid. It just looks and feels foolish because of what it is on the surface. If it was that, say... idk, T3 cultural armor model was significantly changed in design, I think we'd mostly all agree it's a problem. Question is, would they go that far and what are their reasons for doing it in this case. Without knowing why they did it here, it's hard to know if the underlying principle is something to be concerned about or if the motivations were purely centered around the surface level of it and they only made an exception because of that. Cause if it was only about the surface level of it, there's little reason to think anything like it would happen again (I don't think there's any other design as absurd as that one was).