Mech haters - Do you really want harder builds to be stronger?

[Kuma.1503]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

You want to make this about my class vs. yours.  It isn't.  It's about the design direction.  Advantages should come with tradeoffs.  With mechanist they just don't.  It gets everything for free in a package that practically plays itself.  That isn't just a problem for non-engineers.  It's a problem for the other engi specs (including core engi) as well.

I'm curious what you mean by "trade-offs". 

I hear that claim thrown around on occasion. "Mech does everything with no trade-off", which is untrue if we're going by the generally understood definition of what a trade-off is in this game. 

Do you mean Mech is like Untamed or Tempestwhere the Elite spec has no real trade-offs?

If so, that's false because it gives up its toolbelt.

 

A lot of our high value skills are placed into our toolbelt. Elixir Gun and Slick shoes stunbreaks. Our heal skill in med kit. Toss Elixir R, Toss Elixir S, Surprise Shot. 

If playing HAM and using med kit, we also can't use Cleansing Synergy or Reconstruction Enclosure because we need Bandage Self to proc these traits. We also lose an important burst heal. 

If anything that is one of the hardest trade-offs in the game, but because this is a trade-off we get something in exchange, a pet that is able to make up for the loss of our toolbelts, and the accompanying traits that go with them. 

If you want to make Mech more skillful in general, I'd suggest asking for toolbelts to be added back when mech is stowed, then nerfing the jade mech accordingly. This introduces 4 new skills to manage (assuming no elite toolbelt), and requires the player to strategically recall and resummon their mech to access them.  

I'd  speed up the recall animation if this is done so that it isn't clunky to do. 

 

Do you mean it doesn't have trait-based trade-offs? You just get the boon without having to devote a trait to it, like Catalyst did pre-nerf?

If so, this is also false. The middle traitline is for boons. Top is for condi, Bottom is for power. This is as plain a trade-off as it gets as far as traits go. 

 

Do you mean we don't have to take any core traitlines to flesh out or boon list like elementalist has to go earth for stab, fire/water for cleanses, and air for fury/swiftness?

This is where the argument has some merit. We don't have our supportive effects spread out as much as elementalist does. Most of our support is contained within Alchemy and Inventions. 

It's still not entirely true that no trade-off exists whatsoever, because we have to actually invest in these traitlines to play a support role. We aren't doing it while taking Firearms or Explosives for extra dps, that would cause us to lose the all important Alch-Inventions synergy. 

In this instance, the trade-off isn't as harsh as it is for elementalist but it's not non-existant. The claim there is no trade-off here is still hyperbolic. 

 

Mech is a powerful build, sure, but I think you're misinterpreting "strong" for "has no trade-offs whatsoever". They are not the same thing. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[stormemperor.3745]

I don't care if your afk mech does 50k dps or 100k dps or even solo all raids/strikes one shot every wvw/pvp player.

 

I just want them to give some love to other professions.

[AliamRationem.5172]

31 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I'm curious what you mean by "trade-offs". 

I hear that claim thrown around on occasion. "Mech does everything with no trade-off", which is untrue if we're going by the generally understood definition of what a trade-off is in this game. 

Do you mean Mech is like Untamed or Tempestwhere the Elite spec has no real trade-offs?

If so, that's false because it gives up its toolbelt.

 

A lot of our high value skills are placed into our toolbelt. Elixir Gun and Slick shoes stunbreaks. Our heal skill in med kit. Toss Elixir R, Toss Elixir S, Surprise Shot. 

If playing HAM and using med kit, we also can't use Cleansing Synergy or Reconstruction Enclosure because we need Bandage Self to proc these traits. We also lose an important burst heal. 

If anything that is one of the hardest trade-offs in the game, but because this is a trade-off we get something in exchange, a pet that is able to make up for the loss of our toolbelts, and the accompanying traits that go with them. 

If you want to make Mech more skillful in general, I'd suggest asking for toolbelts to be added back when mech is stowed, then nerfing the jade mech accordingly. This introduces 4 new skills to manage (assuming no elite toolbelt), and requires the player to strategically recall and resummon their mech to access them.  

I'd  speed up the recall animation if this is done so that it isn't clunky to do. 

 

Do you mean it doesn't have trait-based trade-offs? You just get the boon without having to devote a trait to it, like Catalyst did pre-nerf?

If so, this is also false. The middle traitline is for boons. Top is for condi, Bottom is for power. This is as plain a trade-off as it gets as far as traits go. 

 

Do you mean we don't have to take any core traitlines to flesh out or boon list like elementalist has to go earth for stab, fire/water for cleanses, and air for fury/swiftness?

This is where the argument has some merit. We don't have our supportive effects spread out as much as elementalist does. Most of our support is contained within Alchemy and Inventions. 

It's still not entirely true that no trade-off exists whatsoever, because we have to actually invest in these traitlines to play a support role. We aren't doing it while taking Firearms or Explosives for extra dps, that would cause us to lose the all important Alch-Inventions synergy. 

In this instance, the trade-off isn't as harsh as it is for elementalist but it's not non-existant. The claim there is no trade-off here is still hyperbolic. 

 

Mech is a powerful build, sure, but I think you're misinterpreting "strong" for "has no trade-offs whatsoever". They are not the same thing. 

 

 

In this case interpret it as a performance tradeoff.  Having a pet that ignores mechanics and plugs away dealing significant damage from range the entire fight should come at a cost in DPS output overall.

We could obviously cite the overloaded utility skills granted to mech as well.  That it's meant to compensate for the loss of the toolbelt is just another way I think prioritizing ease of play over balance goes wrong. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

I am not sure which game mode are you referencing, but if we talk Raids (possibly the thing elite specs get balanced around);

Mechanist - 24,18%

Firebrand - 16,67%

Virtuoso - 11,15%

Scourge - 8,11%

Soulbeast - 5,57%

Specter - 4,17%

I am not sure if slightly above 4% can be called "dominant" 😜 

Source: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

I was talking in terms of performance.  Specter performs very well for a ranged spec with significant utility.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Engineer is my main since vanilla. I played core pp/ps for a long time and switched to Scrapper around LW3. Until Path of Fire, we have been a joke to the community in PVE. Fun to play, tons of gimmicks but no competition to any real class whatsoever. A little bit of everything, but inefficient. Most of the balance patches were a gamble, hoping for the least possible nightmare. ANet often felt the need to make our lives even worse. Things like the FT rework into a pure condition-kit and the infamous purity-of-purpose patches come to mind. Our numbers dropped over the years and after certain patches, I barely saw any engineer players at all.

Holosmith was the first time ANet tried to make Engineer viable. They looked at our class, were disgusted and decided to literally write a completely new class. That worked out. Holosmith is not really an Engineer specialization. It moves and plays like a Warrior/Thief hybrid. But that is why people like it. That is why people actually wanted to play Engineer in PoF. It was a normal class, not some gimmick toolbox with weird abilities and even weirder passives and mechanics.

Then came the Scrapper reworks. We received barrier & Superspeed, which made that specialization less of a joke. Still unable to fulfill the tank role ANet originally designed it for, but no longer a 1-shot target. The heal-scrapper was discovered and people started to play the weird elite specialization because it was useful. A weird synergy that was probably never intended to work finally granted the Scrapper a place in the meta. With the application of Quickness the situation became smoother. Scrapper became a viable support class.

On the other hand, core was gutted since the first elite specialization was released. Due to its synergies, it is great to amplify those other specializations. For balancing reasons, core was always beaten up. Holo too strong? Nerf core! Scrapper too strong? Nerf core! Core is a pain to play nowadays and significantly harder compared to the days I played it. I applaud to @Dawdler.8521and the few others who actually play core and end up being successful. Knowing my own skillfloor is not high enough to achieve this nowadays - it probably never was that high at all. 

With the Mechanist, we received a specialization that fits perfectly into ANet's current strategy for PvE. Easy access for new players to instanced group-content. The rifle-rework was necessary, but they completely overshot the target. Do I hate the mech for being that simple? No. Both Holosmith and Mechanist exist, because real engineer never worked for the masses. It is a niche profession for people with a special taste of difficulty.

Same as with Holosmith, I do not consider the Mechanist a real Engineer specialization. If you look at the other classes and their elite specializations, you can notice a huge difference to ours. They never defy their origin in such an extreme way as ours do. For me, playing Engineer means to work with limitations. Mechanist only has one, underwater combat. 

[Matoro.9708]

20 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I know that's what many claim. Lately Mech has been a hot topic in just about every aspect of the game. Issues mainly stem from it's ease of use and general durability, but to all the people complaining that mech is too easy and too effective, I have to ask. 

Where were all of you during PoF?

For the longest time, for the 3-4 years since I've been playing this game, Engineer has been among the least desirable classes in PvE. It only excelled in the DPS role, and even at this job, it was outclassed. You never LFG'd for an engineer, we didn't have that special mechanic, unique buff, or boon that had groups looking for us. We were warm bodies to fill in space one you managed to fill all of the important roles in your group. 

And sitting comfortably at the bottom of the barrel in the list of "Warm bodies" to choose from, was Core condi engineer. 

A high intensity, high APM, high skill build. 

With mediocre dps. 

It was also so undesirable, that snowcrows eventually dropped it from their benchmark list. Despite the effort that went into playing it, it wasn't considered worth the effort. 

 

Yet everyone complaining about Mech today were more than happy to go about their day, ignoring this dead build, happily out dpsing the enigneer players attempting to play it despite the fact that their build was not only easier, but provided far more value. 

To this day, core condi engineer is still a dead build, and even condi holo has fallen out of favor, but I don't hear people arguing how that's a problem, how either of these high intensity builds should be rewarded for the effort they put in.

So for people who want Mech nerfed, ask yourself, are you so upset about it because an easy build is outperforming a harder build? Or is it because you're upset that YOUR build isn't able to be top dog on the DPS charts as often as you'd like? 

I love you, and I want you to lead Anet. 

[Guybrush.4762]

I personally have zero problem with strong builds that are reasonably easy to get decent at. I do however believe that qualifying power rifle mechanist as being easy to get decent at does not paint the correct picture. It is a very passive build that require little to no input from the player to the point where mechanics that are supposed to pressure most build are struggling to impact its dps loop. I would argue it is more a design flaw than a balance problem. TLDR: I don't want this specific build to get worse but I do want it to get more involved.

I'd say other meta mechanist build are not nearly as problematic. Yes they are strong and probably too well rounded for the good of the game but at least their gameplay feel involved and enjoyable. Well... unless we are talking about underwater combat, I want to see some jade in the water and I don't think I am alone on that request 😄.

As for the initial post... Yeah I like exotics builds myself and I feel bad for some of the hard engi build op has listed. By the way Snowcrows have a legacy build section so you can find doc on them even if they fell out of flavor or never caught on.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Guybrush.4762

[Alcatraznc.3869]

99% of people asking for Mechanist nerf are player who know nothing about Engineer and to an extent, they know nothing about Ranger as well. The 1% remaining may not agree with Mechanist but at least they suggest something with a little more thought than just "nurf".

 

A lot of argument about Mechanist is that the pet deals "too much" damage and should be put at the same level as a Ranger pet. But these player dont know :

 

-Ranger doesnt give up its class gimmick

-Following the statement above, Ranger doesnt give up about 24ish utility/damage/breakstun/heal skill

-Ranger doesnt give up an entire trait line just for the sake of buffing the pet alone. 

 

Mechanist already ask a lot of tradeoff from the engineer and forces you into another playerstyle. The most noticeable is the heal kit. Non Mechanist could use the heal kit as a way to have some waterfield + cleansing while using the toolkit for selfheal, but Mechanist completely remove the toolkit, making the heal kit not worth it for Mechanist (at least for PvP content). Another example, also related to PvP content, is the breakstun from Elixir gun.  Anyway, my point is, Anet forces us to entirely give up our gimmick and to make sure the tradeoff is worth it, they have to give a strong mech worth using. 

 

That being said I would like to qualify some things a bit. While it is true Engineer had a rough time finding a place in group, it wasnt completely black or white. Quickness scrapper and HoloDPS were still pretty solid overall but it is just the perception people had that was flawed. There's no denying that FB Renegade and Scourge were king but at the same time, people wrongly thought the 6 remaining class were not worth. Even today, I am pretty sure Holosmith is still a good pick. Rifle Holosmith is arguably in a better position now than it was before the rifle changes and overall non mechanist trait didnt get changed too much. 

 

 

 

 

[Sunchaser.9854]

The thing is, class balance is more about giving up one thing in a class up, and more about a sum of parts.

When i was a kid, i was in both shoes, there was a class that i played as a kid that could do literally 2-3x the dps of most other players, all just for pressing 1-3 buttons. It was arcane mages. I had been playing wow for a long time tired of being ganked by rogues and silenced by priests. But the build literally let you kill people in 3 seconds in pvp by waiting for someone to cast a spell, counterspell them to silence them for 4 seconds, cast one arcane blast and then trigger a rune for a second instant blast that'd LITERALLY 2-3 shot other players in a silence.

 

To say it was balanced was a understatement, yet the wow dps gap of practical results was more like +50%, like 10k-13k WoW dps vs 15k arcane mage dps. And it had a mechanic where each time it was cast, it pretty much doubled the damage but tripled the mana cost. it was a spec balanced around the mana costs of the next Expansion, and all i'd say is "but mage is squishy, or we have trade offs. it costs more mana each time!" (But, we had so much mana, as well as a 60% mana regeneration ability, as well as a raid trinket that could provide near 100% nonstop mana discounts and free casting it didn't really matter.

 

When other classes talk about balance, it can be easy to think of it as "THEY WANT TO make my class weaker! I have to defend it, why shouldn't i be rewarded, i do top dps, so it's therefore skilled gameplay, etc!", and while it can be true performing high can be a sign of good play. The problem is, many players who perform 2-4k on other specs can literally perform at 28k-35k levels. The spec basically plays itself, just like a infamous meme of the 'faceroll' origin. Where a arcane mage in wow keybound every button to arcane blast by outdpsing most practical peers. Gw2 takes that one step further by adding ridicolous hidden features past break bars. Invisible cast time cancels that clip your dps on specs. Mechanist is literally balanced around afking to 35k-37k dps results while providing might and potential for 100% alacity while having 4 button rotations and often practical raid results putting 20-25k dps as a top raider with years raiding, 25k dps as a afk mechanist autoing, and 35k-37k for a mechanist using 4 buttons.

And 30k-39k for specs that often provide no group boons, are melee range, and often practically drop to 10k-15k raid dps due to mechanics or downtime or the fight having adds or invulnerability / boss swap phases where all condi damage gets clipped. When 90% of your damage is dots that take 10-15 seconds to deal damage,  and mobs can be shot from 1200 range away for instant power damage. Often times that 39k on a golem becomes 5-10k when the 39k over 10 seconds becomes a 4k in 1 second clip.

There are 8 other classes in the game, and all have to compete with mechanist literally afking itself to top raider results while providing might, 100% alacity vs 50% of other specs. Accessibilty itself isn't a problem, balancing it is.

In overwatch for instance, certain characters like Winston, Tombjorn and symmetra are given auto aiming abilities to help any player do decent damage and contribute. However, the OW devs are well aware that balancing auto aimed classes around 0.1% of gameplay would have greatly warped consequences. Imagine if a tf2 pyro, for instance, could headshot you with a flamethrower 100 miles away for pressing w+m1, at 95% of the dps of a tf2 aimbot. Sure, the 'aimbot' would have higher dps. But it'd warp the meta because one class would achieve 95% of a 0.1%'s results for 0-20% of the effort. One of the reasons tombjorn's turret was never buffed to say, be as strong as a Bastion or Tf2 turret was they just didn't want gameplay to revolve around a person pressing one button, going afk. and requiring 5x more effort put in than to counter a afk player. 

  

When people compare rewards without costs, they compare stuff like other classes have to give significant portions of dps as well as perform a 10-20 button rotation to provide 50% alacity or one boon. While mechanists can often provide: Might, 2x more alacity (100% vs 50% in a dps alac role OR healing role), which means they flat out just have 2x the payoff. While still keeping most of their dps or barely changing a rotation. 

Some of the low intensity builds listed on youtube also can make impractical trade off just to auto or use 1-4 buttons for 18k-23k dps, such as abilities that literally self damage themselves that would self down themselves without regeneration boons, or removing their only dodge for 1 dps ability (vindicator). The trade offs people are talking about aren't having every piece of cake in a set, but having boons on top of stellar dps and support while also having 1200 range which means in practical terms, nearly every open world arcdps is filled with screens of 1 player in the top 10 being a non mechanist in the 20k range. while 90% of top 10s are.. afk mechanists in the 25k-35k autoattack range. 

Mechanist by design, is balanced on 0.1% player benchmarks on a immobile golem that 90% of gw2 players are drastically below. (The average player, does about 2-4k bottom 25%, 4-10k middle 50%, 10-20k upper 20%, 20-30k upper 5%. 30-35k top 1%) Mechanist literally afks to the routine top #1-10 of every 50 man squad while one lone player might stand out. That's 2% of the population being next to mechanist's autos on a soo won meta.. That's just ridiculous. Now before you say skill issue, i've seen plenty of the same 2-4k dps players switch to mechanist and literally have 25k-35k dps instant results with mechanist. It's the spec, not the player that makes it so powerful. Because it nigh nearly plays itself off autos that often outdpses 10 average Dragon End's open world players doing 2-4k dps.

 

IMO Auto attacking should be balanced around 90% of the average players, not the 0.1% if they wanted to balance the spec. If they wanted to keep the 35k dps on a high effort rotation so it could afk to maybe 15k-20k and do a 5-10 button rotation to 25-35k, that'd be fair. And if they wanted to avoid nerfing core engi, they could easily nerf the mech itself or strip away it's option to provide 100% alacity to 50% to equalize it with other builds, or buff other 50% alacity dps specs to 100%. I think that'd be fair design. But right now, the afk power and performance seem a bit overtuned imo for a 35k dps 1-4 button build with free might and 100% alacity dps builds that provide twice as much alacity for half the effort. 

 

But as of right now, mechanist is a build tailored to autoattack at the benches of the top 1% of other specs.. for 0-20% of the effort. Just like wow arcane mage could be by spamming one button. But it didn't also double it's group's damage by +25% as well too while being able to autocast itself too if it wanted. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Guybrush.4762 said:

I personally have zero problem with strong builds that are reasonably easy to get decent at. I do however believe that qualifying power rifle mechanist as being easy to get decent at does not paint the correct picture. It is a very passive build that require little to no input from the player to the point where mechanics that are supposed to pressure most build are struggling to impact its dps loop. I would argue it is more a design flaw than a balance problem. TLDR: I don't want this specific build to get worse but I do want it to get more involved.

I'd say other meta mechanist build are not nearly as problematic. Yes they are strong and probably too well rounded for the good of the game but at least their gameplay feel involved and enjoyable. Well... unless we are talking about underwater combat, I want to see some jade in the water and I don't think I am alone on that request 😄.

As for the initial post... Yeah I like exotics builds myself and I feel bad for some of the hard engi build op has listed. By the way Snowcrows have a legacy build section so you can find doc on them even if they fell out of flavor or never caught on.

This deserves some thumbs up. It is correct this isn't a balancing problem; 28K DPs isn't a shocking amount, regardless of how many buttons are pushed. If the player doing 28K was some rando build and people had no idea how many buttons they were pushing to get it ... no one would even question it.  

You correctly indicate this is a design flaw. That resides in two places; the mechanist spec and the encounters themselves. The design flaw with the encounters is unlike to be resolved because of the work involved. They are design to have a difficulty based on interacting with mechanics of the encounter while delivering DPS. Obviously, LI builds significantly reduce the burden of the DPS part, enabling low skilled players to contribute to the encounter.  The weird thing is that we always had LI builds ... so for the complaint to surface now is likely because the objectors see massive usage numbers and ignoring the fact that these numbers include ALL mechanist builds, some of which are currently meta. 

Here is a hot take on this: It's not inconceivable that the majority of mechanist use in endgame are the meta builds, not the LI build (anyone have data to confirm or dispute that ... please provide). Therefore ... If a nerf is to be imposed on mechanist to curb it's use in endgame team content, it's not exclusively on the LI power rifle build. I'm going to bet that's how Anet will regard it as well, especially considering how well Mechanist stacks. 

For me the weirdest thing is that nerfing the DPS (or indirectly doing so by making it more 'rotation') doesn't really affect the people that choose to use the LI build; it's not why they are taking it. The impact is more on the people they team with. If it was 40K DPS, I could see why they are calling for the nerf but it's 28K ... it's just not worth nerfing that to shoot yourself in the foot for. 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

To answer the general question of this thread: Yes, I want harder builds to be stronger.  A harder build should have something that compensates for its difficulty.  Maybe it does more damage, maybe it has a wider toolbox with meaningful abilities, maybe it provides enough self-heals and self-barrier to be more durable, maybe it has flexible ranges, maybe it provides a lot of passive boons and disabling conditions, etc. and so on.  In a very simple matter of cosmic justice, greater effort should be rewarded with greater outcomes.  

[Zok.4956]

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, but we don't have Anet completely abandoning that effort/DPS relationship right? There are LOTS of choices that maintain that. Also, the LI mechanist builds are not even close to what anyone would consider meta level DPS. So basically, IMO, Anet hits the 'raising the skill floor' goal with this without impacting the skill ceiling.

Yes and no. I responded in this thread/subject to the question "ask yourself, are you so upset about it because an easy build is outperforming a harder build?" So the thread starter implied that the effort/DPS relationship is somehow broken.

And the subject of this thread is "Do you really want harder builds to be stronger?" and I tried to explain why I think that harder builds should be stronger so the game tries to not breaking the effort/DPS relationship.

If I compare just the Mechanist elite specs I think the effort/DPS relationship is not broken because you could get more DPS with Mechanist high-intensity builds compared to the Mechanist low-intensity builds.

But if I compare different elites/classes it seems broken.

Just one example: When playing Tempest (I like this class a lot more than Mech), it takes a lot of effort to get me anywhere near LI Mech DPS. Comparing those two the effort/DPS relationship seems broken. So: If I play selfish I play Tempest, but if I want to help my group/team better with DPS I should not play tempest. So there is a conflict between playing what I like and playing what I "should" and it decreases a little bit the fun playing what I like.

Yes, I know, this has nothing to do with Mech LI builds. Because this is caused in general by the big balancing problems between different classes/elites in the game and the effort/DPS relationship was somehow already broken before Mech existed.

However, increased DPS and the great popularity of the Mech LI builds has now made many people aware of it and some of them blame Mech LI builds for it.

I think if Anet would be able (one can dream) to balance all the elites/classes a lot better we would not have this discussions about Mech LI builds. 

P.S. I do have fun playing LI Mech from time to time just joking around in WvW as a glass cannon. I die a lot if I make the slightest positioning error and get separated from my support/healer in fights against other players but it is (somehow) fun to see the highest DPS numbers in my squad (i.e. against static bosses) without pressing keys (maybe rifle-2 and F1 F3 from time to time).  😎

 

[Tails.9372]

33 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

I know, this has nothing to do with Mech LI builds. Because this is caused in general by the big balancing problems between different classes/elites in the game and the effort/DPS relationship was somehow already broken before Mech existed.

However, increased DPS and the great popularity of the Mech LI builds has now made many people aware of it and some of them blame Mech LI builds for it.

I think if Anet would be able (one can dream) to balance all the elites/classes a lot better we would not have this discussions about Mech LI builds. 

Didn't they say that they wanted to address underperforming things across the spectrum and rework all of the outdated core weapons? If so then the main thing they are to blame for is yet again the lack of communication in regards to their future plans as this whole thing is nothing new nor is "AFK AA rifle mechanist" even the worst "offender" in that regard. There are other ranged builds which have higher "AA spam damage" while also having better self sustain and are offerenring better group support on top of it but I suppose they're not as "flashy" so at least for PvE no one really cares.

Also, the average casual player doesn't use a DPS meter, they don't know how well they actually perform. They don't play machanist rifle spam because of the inconsequential damage increase they got from putting their mech skills on autocast, they play it because "big mech flashy" and "gun go brrr" which are just popular things in general.

[Wolfshade.9251]

I used to enjoy playing engi in raids precisely because it wasn't a braindead class. Sure, power scrapper is pretty simple to play with good results, but how many low-toughness scrapper tanks do you see compared to full minstel chronos despite having great survivability and much higher damage? Almost none. Power holosmith was in a good place before the pdps nerf, but now gets outdpsed by an AFK mechanist to the point where it's not even listed on Snowcrows. Don't even get me started on condi-kit engi, it still is an epic feeling for me to play condi-quick-scrapper on fights that would otherwise be mechanically boring to me.

I really attempted to like mechanist. As a heal-scrapper enjoyer I found heal-mechanist incredibly natural for me to play. The condi-kit alac version was almost there in terms of enjoyment. But the fact that it dominates the squad composition so much with minimal effort (hell, with minimal player input!) is ridiculous.

Because of all the reasons for which I enjoyed engineer, I now despise mechanist.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

I'd argue the biggest problem is purely because of the sheer lack of APM required on Power Rifle Mechanist. When HoT first came out, Revenant sword auto-attack was so strong (typically Shiro/X builds) that it was a similar scenario. Doing almost anything--for old-Herald and current-Mechanist--besides auto-attack mostly results in a DPS loss and that issue cannot be understated.

No profession in the game should be able to maintain the current Mechanist DPS through pure auto-attacks--especially at the 2nd longest range in the game. If all professions were brought up to this level no one would bother with any of the other skills simply because it there's no point to putting in more effort for less output. We're already seeing this as a problem with strikes comprised of 5+ Mechanists.

Most builds that are benchmarked at 35K-40K are through having an average-to-above-average rotation (damage), understanding your profession's traits and gameplay loop (control), and being able to execute that loop while also handling mechanics of encounters (movement). As a result, many players actually see DPS considerably lower than the benchmark.

Having 22K-28K DPS on ranged auto-attack invalidates that balance design entirely

• Movement: At 1200 range, it is performing this at the 2nd longest distance in the game and allows players to avoid nearly all instanced mechanics in the game (few bosses have 100% map coverage). This removes any need to understand or interact with nearly all mechanics of an encounter.
• Control: Due to auto-attack, there's no risk or need for any actions beyond movement, further trivializing mechanics and leading to confirmation bias that "this game is too easy". There's no balance of impactful skills vs. timing because you literally do not need to use any skills other than auto-attack, meaning at all points of an encounter you should always have access to whatever skills are needed to handle a mechanic (defiance bar typically).
• Damage: Because there's no dropoff due to rotation breakdown, it is easy to consistently maintain 22K-28K dps whereas professions who can reach 35K can drop down to 10K-30K for pressing 1 skill too early or by moving slightly. Ties in with the range problem because when a boss moves there is a dropoff due to simply being out of range--100CM Fractal is notorious for this before the 66%/33%/15% burn phases.

The easiest way to see this is to watch recordings of current strike encounters.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I don't have any issues with mech. I play a tanky tempest build in sPvP and I'm on equal footing with the mechs. I usually burst down the golem first and then focus on the player. Sometimes they give up when the golem is dead and run off. I think I as often get killed by mechanist players than that I destroy them.

 

I actually enjoy playing against them. I got more trouble playing against various thief and mesmer variants with all the teleports, stealth and/or interrupts.

[Valisha.8650]

7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

To answer the general question of this thread: Yes, I want harder builds to be stronger.  A harder build should have something that compensates for its difficulty.  Maybe it does more damage, maybe it has a wider toolbox with meaningful abilities, maybe it provides enough self-heals and self-barrier to be more durable, maybe it has flexible ranges, maybe it provides a lot of passive boons and disabling conditions, etc. and so on.  In a very simple matter of cosmic justice, greater effort should be rewarded with greater outcomes.  

The increased input required IS a reward. By having more required interaction with your build (up to a certain degree, of course) you are getting more out of  the game, than someone who semi-afks through every encounter.

For example, the mechanist was so boring for me that I had to switch into condi alac specter - Another semi-LI build, but one that requires at least SOME input and management, since the HAM was making the game simply dull.

[Zok.4956]

6 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Didn't they say that they wanted to address underperforming things across the spectrum and rework all of the outdated core weapons? If so then the main thing they are to blame for is yet again the lack of communication in regards to their future plans

It's also been established (more or less) since the leak a few weeks ago that the main reason the LI mechanist has been buffed so much is because it's the favorite class of a dev who is/was responsible for balancing not just the mechanist.

[Shaogin.2679]

On 8/5/2022 at 5:37 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

I know that's what many claim. Lately Mech has been a hot topic in just about every aspect of the game. Issues mainly stem from it's ease of use and general durability, but to all the people complaining that mech is too easy and too effective, I have to ask. 

Where were all of you during PoF?

For the longest time, for the 3-4 years since I've been playing this game, Engineer has been among the least desirable classes in PvE. It only excelled in the DPS role, and even at this job, it was outclassed. You never LFG'd for an engineer, we didn't have that special mechanic, unique buff, or boon that had groups looking for us. We were warm bodies to fill in space one you managed to fill all of the important roles in your group. 

And sitting comfortably at the bottom of the barrel in the list of "Warm bodies" to choose from, was Core condi engineer. 

A high intensity, high APM, high skill build. 

With mediocre dps. 

It was also so undesirable, that snowcrows eventually dropped it from their benchmark list. Despite the effort that went into playing it, it wasn't considered worth the effort. 

 

Yet everyone complaining about Mech today were more than happy to go about their day, ignoring this dead build, happily out dpsing the enigneer players attempting to play it despite the fact that their build was not only easier, but provided far more value. 

To this day, core condi engineer is still a dead build, and even condi holo has fallen out of favor, but I don't hear people arguing how that's a problem, how either of these high intensity builds should be rewarded for the effort they put in.

So for people who want Mech nerfed, ask yourself, are you so upset about it because an easy build is outperforming a harder build? Or is it because you're upset that YOUR build isn't able to be top dog on the DPS charts as often as you'd like? 

You're assuming that the people that are speaking out against Mechanist being over-rewarding for brain-dead gameplay were completely ok with Core Engineer being unrewarding for complicated gameplay, yet you have nothing at all to back up this assumption. I have never seen anyone create a thread about Core Engineer being trash in PvE only to have others come in and justify it. It is possible, but even then they'd have to be trolling and definitely a small minority of players that likely do not represent the large playerbase that is currently unsatisfied with Mechanist's current levels of performance.

But honestly, yes, more complicated gameplay should yield better results when played correctly. This is not to say that there should not be options for viable low intensity builds, but they should not out-perform someone that is playing a more complicated, higher risk build. I mean, that is pretty basic logic honestly.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Shaogin.2679

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

But honestly, yes, more complicated gameplay should yield better results when played correctly.

OK ... and the game does do that. There are certainly lots of more complicated builds that give much more DPS. If that's what people want, they can play those builds. 

Quote

This is not to say that there should not be options for viable low intensity builds, but they should not out-perform someone that is playing a more complicated, higher risk build. I mean, that is pretty basic logic honestly.

Saying that LI builds should not outperform complicated higher risk builds is indirectly a statement that LI builds should have garbage DPS because they aren't complicated or high risk. That's just not inline with the game being accessible to everyone. 

I mean, what builds are you using to qualify this? because I can think of LOTS of builds that can be played that are high risk, complicated and don't have much DPS, so any line you make as a threshold for what should be the floor of a LI build based on complicated, high risk ... chances are LI builds will cross it. 

There is no black or white here. The rule for the threshold of what is 'reasonable' DPS for a LI build is not so easy to define but I think it's very easy to see that if it's too low, it will be discouraged by people to be used in teams, just like any other low DPS build would be handled. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... and the game does do that. There are certainly lots of more complicated builds that give much more DPS. If that's what people want, they can play those builds. 

Yet it is not consistent across the game, else threads like this would not even exist. But of course you know that already. 

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Saying that LI builds should not outperform complicated higher risk builds is indirectly a statement that LI builds should have garbage DPS because they aren't complicated or high risk. That's just not inline with the game being accessible to everyone. 

You can choose to interpret that however you want but it is very clear that is not what I said. There is a huge difference between LI builds out-performing complicated high-risk builds and LI builds having garbage DPS. But again, you already knew this as well. 

 

I said what I said and stand by it.

[Obtena.7952]

41 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Yet it is not consistent across the game, else threads like this would not even exist. But of course you know that already. 

You can choose to interpret that however you want but it is very clear that is not what I said. There is a huge difference between LI builds out-performing complicated high-risk builds and LI builds having garbage DPS. But again, you already knew this as well. 

Consistency in GW2 has never been that strong between the different build options; it's just a convenient thing to complain about NOW that people see something they don't want in the game. LI builds doesn't mean their won't be build choice for people that want that consistency though, it's just means there will be more options that don't adhere to it. The existence of those things don't make those consistent choices any less meaningful. 

I mean, you can believe what you like about how the game should be handled or you want to get wise about what is actually happening. GW2 at it's core, has always had a very casual sensibility and appeal. LI builds are inline with that. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ThunderX.6591]

Considering the presence of Mecha in End game contents (raid the majority??), you need to consider a simple thing; Mecha come with EOD, you seriously think that the people at the top in that kind of contents before EOD was released would change to Mecha after EOD come?

Probably no, the "new Mecha" are the new players the EOD get to join the game, casual who get interested in the game, see the Robot in the window login, get interested in it, check if there is a class with the robot, choose the class with the robot, find the class easy, decided to use the class in the end game contents.

For the pro before EOD, there are other classes more powerfull they can easily use like Harbinger, Virtuoso, Scourge, the Untamed surprise (or the classic Soulbeast) and so on......... (i am talking about DPS class).

[Kuma.1503]

3 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

You're assuming that the people that are speaking out against Mechanist being over-rewarding for brain-dead gameplay were completely ok with Core Engineer being unrewarding for complicated gameplay, yet you have nothing at all to back up this assumption. I have never seen anyone create a thread about Core Engineer being trash in PvE only to have others come in and justify it. It is possible, but even then they'd have to be trolling and definitely a small minority of players that likely do not represent the large playerbase that is currently unsatisfied with Mechanist's current levels of performance.

But honestly, yes, more complicated gameplay should yield better results when played correctly. This is not to say that there should not be options for viable low intensity builds, but they should not out-perform someone that is playing a more complicated, higher risk build. I mean, that is pretty basic logic honestly.

I'm not saying people thought core engi underperforming was good. I'm saying, people have been completely ambivalent to the fact that they underperform for 2 years despite being HI. 

Now the tables have turned, and there is major outrage, to the point where people are spreading blatant misinformation and hyperbole. 

I'm saying the two reactions are not proportional. The community is not outraged enough when the opposite of the mech situation is true. When they were out dpsing us despite providing more value and and easier rotation, there forums were dead silent. Complete and utter ambivalence. It didn't effect them so why care?

Now they're being out dpsed by an easier build, and there is outrage. 

At the core of the issue, whether justified or not, people want to tear mech down so their preferred builds can rise by comparison. That inherent motivation might eventually work in getting mech nerfed, that in itself won't solve the issue where more difficult builds are being out performed by easier builds. 

Once Mech is gone and ambivalence takes over again, do you think they'll start being outraged that builds like core condi engi and weaver are still garbage and have been for years? 

My prediction, they'll celebrate because their favorite build has less competition, they're no longer being out DPS'ed by t̸̺̣͈̗̹̞̫̤̐̊h̵̛͈̼̗͉͓̰͖̯͋̍̈́̅̓̓͝ͅe̵̲̣̔͗̓̽̃̀̍͌̄̀͌̽̆͂̕ ̵̢̺̻̰̫̬͕̱̝̭̫͑ũ̶͖͊̈́̂͂͆͑͆̅̾̓͒ṅ̶̮̗͕̅̾͗͊̑̾́w̵̭̒̊̓́͑̏̓͋̇̑͝ǫ̵̺͍̗̖̭̍͆̈́́́͂̀̚̚͜r̸̺̭̦̦̟̤͍̳̪̋͒̀͑̈͊̏́̓̀͝ẗ̶̠͔͈̫̅̃h̵̺̲͙͍͌̈́̽̆̍̾͗̕ÿ̶̛̙͓́͐̊̓̇̊̊̑̄̚͠.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Ashgar.3024]

I just want Holo to have a reason to exist now that autoattack-bot is in the game. Didn't sign up for a pet class when i made my engi 5 years ago.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Ashgar.3024