Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[phokus.8934]

At least give us back Superspeed on dodge if it will remain one dodge.

[Mell.4873]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:50 AM, Moradorin.6217 said:

They never said "we WILL be getting out dodge back", specifically.

They said Mirage's other dodge is on the table and it was said in the stream they specifically announced that Vindicator would get a 2nd dodge in all game modes.

Its a similar statement. I think anyone objective would consider that Vindicator was designed specifically to work with one dodge but was obviously not working as they had hoped because they decided it needed a 2nd dodge pretty soon after Vind's release. Furthermore, I would say that it made it necessary for them to mention Mirage because it was the giant elephant in the room, so to speak, when they gave Vind a 2nd dodge since Mirage players have complained about the split-mode 1-2 variable number of dodges for Mirage for 3 years now with no response.

Obviously, Mirage should have the same number of dodges in all game modes like every other class. I can only speculate that they bet on the idea that most Mirage players only do pve now so most wont even realize and they have kinda been trying to sweep it and the fact that Vind was changed from its orignial 1 dodge concept under the rug.

I see no reasonable way in which anyone could defend Anet's position on Mirage's number of dodges once its put into this context. I have never seen anyone wage an objective defense of it to this day.

Clearly, Mirage is due a 2nd dodge or at the very least the same number of dodges in all 3 modes like every other spec in game. It could be 1, 2 or 3 dodges as long as its the same number in pvp/wvw/pve.

I agree but they still acknowledged it as a problem.

I mean Mirage not having a second dodge is probably not their priority. The people who still play Mirage mostly in WvW Roaming probably don't care for the second dodge since it's all about mobility. I for one see Virtuoso be the more successful Mesmer Elite and can't see why Mirage can't have its second dodge back (maybe lower the ambush damage.)

[Mell.4873]

On 2/17/2023 at 4:15 AM, Waffles.5632 said:

 

Yeah when I first came here I got attacked and belittled constantly just for saying "Power Mirage is okay" and that IMO it was like B tier for pvp. This was back then tho, not now.

I forget the thread exactly but I got moderated because I ended up writing a pretty nasty post towards the end. I was out of turn tbh, and it was more like a timeout than anything. You know, to let heated minds cool off and such.

 

I still get confused emoji's on some of my posts, but not really in this section anymore, and I mean that's whatever anyways. Mell get's 10+ confused emojis every other post and they're still positive and civil. Much respect tbh. Idk if I could handle that all the time. 🥲

Let us not forget how jaded and vile the mesmer section used to be. I came on the tail end but even still, it got pretty bad sometimes IMO. I'll never agree with some of the language people have used, and I'll never agree with anyone saying death threats to devs and stuff either, even though I can understand the frustration behind it, it's just never okay.

Gotta try to keep it civil always, this is just a game, and the devs, whether we agree with them or not, put in a ton of work day in and day out for us all to keep playing this game, one dodge or not!

 

 

 

As for the leak, I think it's still relevant because it's still the same design philosophy of  "Mesmer can't be good because -reasons-" and I just can't ever agree with that perspective.

Don't make a class if you are constantly ham-stringing it. That creates the exact situation we're all in right now, where everyone is frustrated because they can see the potential and we want to push that potential, but we're constantly being held back. It then gets compounded with resentment because other classes get pushed forward.

 

 

 

Also the most recent language of Anet saying they're going to work more on "Popular Game Modes" which means Raids and sPvP are all but dead now, because those 2 modes by far are the weakest game modes in terms of how many players actually participate. Even Grouch on Teapot's stream said the keyword is "popular".  Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I took it.

 

For raids I think, it's like less than 1% of the entire GW2 population or something. Now raids are it's own beast, so don't wanna get into that, but I do feel Raids and sPvP kinda have the same issue where their communities gatekeep and make it so newer players just can't really enter, not at least without a ton of frustration and sometimes just outright bullying being thrown their way.

 

But what can ya do right?! 😂

 

I can keep posting about Mirage only having one dodge! 😁

Sooner or later Anet will capitulate and then we can rejoice! hahahaha

Either that or well, we all just eventually move on.

 

 

 

We are all in this together, I might be a contrary voice on this forum but I regularly change my mind and like a bit arguing. 

I guess I'm immune to the confused faces, most people in game I chat too agree with my views. I even come across more people who hate Mesmers and agree with second dodge nerf but I normally try an convince them otherwise. 

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Im glad to see that many mesmers has united in this thread, but there's def room for improvement if you ask me, especially if we want to be seen as a strong part of the gw2 community and be taken seriously.

First of all people still belittle eachother too much in the mesmer forum, by questioning how skilled one player is at playing mesmer and basically say that you're not good enough to give any feedback, or telling you that you're too emotional etc. All this because one tries to "win" the debate. That's just totally wrong and we make ouservelves look very weak as a community in Anets eyes. We should try to lift eachother, even when we disagree with eachother. It doesnt help to belittle eachother, cuz that just makes everything more toxic. Every post with feedback is gold and valuable, and the more voices the better, cuz that's how we get stronger.

We all (including myself) need to get better at this, we need to stick together and we need to be kinder to eachother. It's enough that we already have all non mesmer players against us, we have streamers that loudly voices how they hate us, and that Anet has a clear biase against Mesmer as a whole class (all the leaks being evidence for that). We as a community dont need to be our own enemies as well.

Im happy that this thread united many mesmer mainers, but we can get way better at this. Lets unite on a new level! We have nothing to loose 😊

Edited February 18, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729
Typo :)

[apharma.3741]

10 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

We are all in this together, I might be a contrary voice on this forum but I regularly change my mind and like a bit arguing. 

I guess I'm immune to the confused faces, most people in game I chat too agree with my views. I even come across more people who hate Mesmers and agree with second dodge nerf but I normally try an convince them otherwise. 

I think the general point of "this is what other people think" outside the forum, in game and in their communities is worth emphasising. It's those complaints that got mesmer nerfed and stuck in the position it's in. It's those voices that make builds like those linked below saying "mesmer has too much invuln", "mirage has plenty of dodges" (they actually mean mirage cloak from desert distortion usually), "mesmer has too many blocks" or "mesmer is meta/high ranked in X, Y, Z".

If we can't address and identify what makes them think that way, then we will never see the buffs we want and many fun builds will be left to be niche at best or plain worse than other classes. We also then become reliant on crutches to be "meta", only to further infuriate (rightly or wrongly) a lot of people until everything but the crutch is nerfed.

https://guildjen.com/condition-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/
https://guildjen.com/celestial-virtuoso-roaming-build/
https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Fractal
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Raid_Builds
https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW_Roaming

[Veprovina.4876]

@apharma.3741 Their bias is what makes them say that, the builds on mesmer never had too much od anything, especially can't be said for current state.

Virtuoso who has high dps, has nothing else to offer,  no boons to share. 

I'm not saying it has to, but even in a good example, mesmers don't have as much as some other classes.

 

Too much invuln?

Catalyst

Too much blocks?

Catalyst

Meta?

Not in competitive... And even that one Chrono build that was decent got nerfed because now every necro can do boonstrip better and easier, and every other utility it had was outclassed by every scrapper and Firebrand.

 

So, according to the community, we can't have dodges, we can't have invuln, we can't have blocks boonstrip, mobility, stealth...

 

What CAN we have then?

 

There is nothing to identify mechanicslly with mesmer that makes people think this way about us.

 

It's every streamers shouting nerfs to thousands of people, every reddit post, every "opinion" taken as fact.

 

What's everyone supposed to think when all they see is every "influencer" telling them how OP we are and how unfair it is to everyone else.

 

No one meanwhile, has a problem with Elementalists.

Why?

Because they play them.

But none of them play mesmers.

 

Mechanically, mesmer is not OP.

But years of perpetuating this myth has destroyed the perception of us.

 

And GW2 is The o ly game where I saw such a heavy negative bias against a profession, both from the community and from the Company.

 

And the company should know better and if not stop the Bias at least be imune to it.

 

As it stands, we are getting blasted from all sides, especially the one that is supposed to be on the side of everyone who play their game. Only here is this acceptable behaviour.

[apharma.3741]

21 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

@apharma.3741 Their bias is what makes them say that, the builds on mesmer never had too much od anything, especially can't be said for current state.

Virtuoso who has high dps, has nothing else to offer,  no boons to share. 

I'm not saying it has to, but even in a good example, mesmers don't have as much as some other classes.

 

Too much invuln?

Catalyst

Too much blocks?

Catalyst

Meta?

Not in competitive... And even that one Chrono build that was decent got nerfed because now every necro can do boonstrip better and easier, and every other utility it had was outclassed by every scrapper and Firebrand.

 

So, according to the community, we can't have dodges, we can't have invuln, we can't have blocks boonstrip, mobility, stealth...

 

What CAN we have then?

 

There is nothing to identify mechanicslly with mesmer that makes people think this way about us.

 

It's every streamers shouting nerfs to thousands of people, every reddit post, every "opinion" taken as fact.

 

What's everyone supposed to think when all they see is every "influencer" telling them how OP we are and how unfair it is to everyone else.

 

No one meanwhile, has a problem with Elementalists.

Why?

Because they play them.

But none of them play mesmers.

 

Mechanically, mesmer is not OP.

But years of perpetuating this myth has destroyed the perception of us.

 

And GW2 is The o ly game where I saw such a heavy negative bias against a profession, both from the community and from the Company.

 

And the company should know better and if not stop the Bias at least be imune to it.

 

As it stands, we are getting blasted from all sides, especially the one that is supposed to be on the side of everyone who play their game. Only here is this acceptable behaviour.

But everyone has a problem with catalyst and elementalist, the PvP forum was quite literally full of people and posts begging for catalyst and sceptre nerfs.
Earth shield has been complained about relentlessly which is the source of many of catalysts/eles blocks and invulns.
To be clear people weren't just asking for moderate nerfs to catalyst, some were asking for massive nerfs across ele, they wanted shocking and magnetic aura to disappear (from a sic'em ranger main), they wanted boons removing, they wanted the elite spec to be disabled in PvP. So I'm not sure where you get this idea that other specs don't get scorn from the community from. Once the mini season is over you'll see people back to catalyst hate and spellbreaker.
As I said earlier though, you need to be able to prove what you say, not just say "look here, look here, clear bias" you need to prove it with numbers by saying "mesmer got X% less updates over the last 18 months" or "out of X QoL updates the average was Y and mesmer got Z" eyc.
I've managed to get the data from the wiki but it's a formatting mess to clean up for 1 update, hopefully this will apply to all and a data set can be created but otherwise it's a big manual job to go through 18-24 months of notes and categorise each one.

[Veprovina.4876]

@apharma.3741

 

Yes but you're missing the point.

Elementalists and other classes donr have to deal with such a perception of them

Just because people complain on the forum, doesn't mean they have such a Bias. 

They currently complain because it's obvious tk everyone that something is clearly wrong if one Catalyst can 1v5 for 10 minutes and win without losing much hp in the process...

 

Furthermore, our goal is to get the second dodge back, and open up a dialogue for further healing to the damage done to mesmers.

Also, you're overstating your case. We don't need to prive any x% difference in something or that certain number of updates was rolled out.

Someone could argue updates wasn't needed, or someone else (who also factually didn't require much tuning if the clqss is fine) also didn't get updates over X time.

%difference xould just ve devs idea of use cases for the class, and where it's good at, and with all of the above makes it impossible to make a case, because most of that has too many variables to compare to anything else as that "else" also has too many varijable.

 

This is like the 5th time you've displayed what i can only described as an unnecesary roadblock at best and a diversion at worst when it comes to us receiving fair treatment and the road to recovery. 

You're throwing problems at our feet that are not ours to solve.

 

We don't need to prove anything. No one else has to. I dont work for Anet.

 

But want proof?

 

The proof is the thread title, Mirage us the only one with a Split mode functionality, that was slapped on top of nerfs already in place to do what the dodge nerf was for, the entire game was designed with 2 dodges in mind - proven by Vindicator receiving 2 dodges with minimal adjustment, and the fact that we were, and continue to be, ignored for at least 3 years now on the most pressing issue. 

 

Don't create problems for us that are not ours to solve. There is plenty of reason for saying what we do, and plenty of proof just in this thread.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Why do we need to prove from every single angle just to be able to justify one dodge coming back for mirage, and getting mesmer fixed after all the nerfs its been through during all these years? The proof is already in all the patch notes, where mesmers usually get very weird balancing that makes no sense, doesnt meet the mesmer communities feedback and nor our expectations. They just make some weird changes and calls it a day. The proof is in one dodge still exists together with all other nerfs and bugs. The proof is in the janky experience you get when you play as a mesmer in certain modes of the game, that others dont need to put up with.

Why didnt the other non mesmer players need to prove anything? They just whined out loudly and got what they wanted in the end, just because they refused to learn this game properly, and wanted an easy fix which led to nerfs on nerfs on nerfs for us.

So what is there left for us to prove? Just play as a mesmer and you'll get your proof!

[Waffles.5632]

 

I did the 10 placement matches for 3v3, it started when I queued up on Vindi and lost, then told myself well if I'm going to lose anyway, might as well be on Mirage! I ended up with 7 wins / 3 losses. I'm still making mistakes, but here are my best rounds. ^

 

 

My thoughts:

- One dodge still sucks. It will always suck. However 3v3 = 6 players | 5v5 = 10 players, so that's 4 less cata's I have to worry about. 😁

 

- Mantras changes are, as expected, just not fun for me. Charging up a 2sec mantra just never feels good at all. Doesn't matter if it's out of combat or not. No matter what the buff offered, unless it's something super crazy, it just never feels worth it. However a cool interaction with my build is I run Furious Interruption so I can use it to quicken my Mantra casting while in combat. In one of the matches I did just that, it was the only time I was happy to be pressing the mantra button lol. In defense however, Mantra of Distraction is the "weakest" mantra in regards to the buff it gives on charge. The other mantras give way better buffs imo, but I wanted that AOE daze for the CC so.

 

- Signet of Domination is a cool alternative to Mantra of Distraction. In the video you can see me swapping between both, though IMO the bigger clutch moments were with Signet of Domi.

At first the passive might seem wasted, however I was using traveler runes, and I could go lynx for even more specialized condi damage. Even though I was power, you can see me getting up to 500+ bleed damage a few times, so I found that as just a cool little bonus. In 5v5 I feel I need the 25% MS bonus so it's either or out of those two. For 3v3 MS isn't really needed, but I wasn't being pressed so didn't bother swapping. I usually go eagle runes during 2v2/3v3 seasons for extra damage but wanted to try something different this time.

 

- Tell me you're power creeping without telling me you're power creeping. Every single time before in 2v2/3v3 I could get by with assassin ammy, or 15k hp. But not anymore. You need 20k+ hp to be "comfortable" in todays meta. If you're skilled/fast reaction, you can skate by with 18k. You're a mad man and have all my respect if you pvp with anything lower than that.

 

- Overall extremely fun, but I am biased. 2v2/3v3 are my favorite seasons. I will not be playing 5v5's until further notice! 😡

 

 

Stand Out Match:  Cata/Tempest/SB vs Mirage/Tempest/SB

This for me was the toughest one because we lost the first 2 rounds, but then won the next 3. Signet of Domi was super clutch here.

 

 

It's only 10 matches, but 3v3 seasons is really unique because it can give you insights into the upcoming 5v5 meta and let you know what people are looking to play. I think Spellbreaker gonna be top dog for everything it can bring to the table. Warrior is the CC King atm imo, but it's still a bit early to tell. Cata actually feels appropriately nerfed now thank god, but in 5v5 that may be different still. It's always hard because you have to try and gauge how 4 extra players add to the mix. At least for 3v3, cata feels fine now.

 

My top picks so far, in no order: Tempest, Holo, Spellbreaker, Chrono, Cata

Ironically, I didn't see any Virtu's, though again only 10 matches so don't take that as fact. I am sure they are out there. I plan to pvp some more until this season is over, but these are the last sparks of pvp life I have to offer lmfao. No way am I doing 5v5 with one dodge anymore.

 

My biggest takeaway so far is if you used to run Mantra of Distraction, look into Signet of Domi now as a potential skill to take with you into upcoming seasons. It could be clutch. 45 secs a pretty hefty cooldown, but in 5v5 I feel it's appropriate because IMO signet of domi is kind of like a mini moa. 3sec ranged non-projectile stun can really shut some classes down when timed correctly.

Also worth noting though, in 5v5's you can cast mantras while roaming between nodes which takes a lot of pressure off since no one should be attacking you then. These are all things I would consider.

 

Also I feel Mesmer is a class best played with a supportive style in mind. I kinda flip it because I go "offensive support" meaning I try to help my team with appropriately timed CC and Debuffs. As for the perception of Mesmer vs other classes, well, sometimes your biggest fans are gonna be haters! 😂

 

Edit: My Build

Edited February 18, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Veprovina.4876]

@Waffles.5632

 

Just out of curiosity, if you had spent as much time mastering any other class and had such skill on something else - how big would the difference be?

Do you even play anything else?

🙂

 

Cause I don't think you're the metric Mirage should be balanced around. 😛 You seem far more skilled than what the average would be able to pull off.

 

Nor should any class around any other top player, or golem numbers for that matter. 🙂 Skill should reward the skilled player by them feeling OP, not punish the unskilled or average one's by nerfing the class to conform to the skilled players level. But I digress.

 

But I glad someone can do good on mirage despite its many problems. I don't play PvP, but from personal experience, and i know WvWs different, there's almost no Mirages in WvW. And the ones I see can't do damage and are dead very fast... 

But WvW is vastly different from PvP, you can't really compare.

[Waffles.5632]

33 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

@Waffles.5632

 

Just out of curiosity, if you had spent as much time mastering any other class and had such skill on something else - how big would the difference be?

Do you even play anything else?

🙂

 

Cause I don't think you're the metric Mirage should be balanced around. 😛 You seem far more skilled than what the average would be able to pull off.

 

Nor should any class around any other top player, or golem numbers for that matter. 🙂 Skill should reward the skilled player by them feeling OP, not punish the unskilled or average one's by nerfing the class to conform to the skilled players level. But I digress.

 

But I glad someone can do good on mirage despite its many problems. I don't play PvP, but from personal experience, and i know WvWs different, there's almost no Mirages in WvW. And the ones I see can't do damage and are dead very fast... 

But WvW is vastly different from PvP, you can't really compare.

 

Oh definitely 100% Mirage should not be balanced around me. I just want to give insight into some of it's potential. There are also better Mirages than me too, though I'm one of the rare few that sticks it out with power. Most high tiered Mirages go inspi I think? Or w/e the trait line for the signets, and then they go condi too. And yes you're right, there's also WvW Mirage play which, well I don't WvW so can't speak to that. Idk what they choose.

Edit: I wish Mesmer as a class was easier to get into. I think maybe I should make a vid on that to help newer players because there's a lot of mechanics that aren't intuitive or forthright in how they work, like phantasms. Sword 5 is the best example of this. I thought it was a weak skill for so long because the tool tip didn't tell me that the phantasm does it's own blurred frenzy. I only found out when I read the wiki.

 

If I had played any other class I would easily be plat 2 or plat 3 though I feel. Especially if I was inclined to class swap too. So not that much difference because in a sense Mirage is one of the easiest classes to play in that your evades cannot be negated, so the "solution" to every problem is literally dodge better lmfao, and then the hard part is working in your offensive CC's around your evades.

 

Here is a ranked match from years ago, back during scourge meta, you can see I mostly play the same, just more refined:

 

So in that sense, Mirage is "easy" for me because it's really been the same thing for so long. Just dodge. But again, the meta has truthfully shifted and PvP is way faster paced now and more dangerous. The floor literally is lava in 5v5 so one dodge no longer cuts it. Mechanically you get shut out and ran down by any duo queue. Like a Vindi+WB can completely push me out of a whole match.

 

Edit: Also no... I do not play anything else 😭 Power Mirage is my vibe. My soul.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[apharma.3741]

That's the point, people don't and most won't play mesmer. You can scream what you have said till your lungs bleed but they're not listening to your message in that way. So you need to communicate in the way they will listen and will accept.

I'll play well know ranger main of the forum devils advocate.

Mirage has plenty of invuln, mirage cloak and blocks, it doesn't need another dodge, see this build: https://guildjen.com/condition-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/
Mirage defences:
Distortion 4s every 42.5s
Signet of midnight 1s distortion every 35s, 2s every minute.
Signet of midnight 2s stealth every 35s, 4s every minute
Signet of ether 1s every 30s, 2s every minute
Signet of illusions 1s distortion every 60s + 4s from refreshed distortion 
Sceptre 2s block every 8s, easiest to say 6 times every minute.
Aegis from Chaos storm 1 block every 35s, 2 every minute.
Desert Distortion 3 mirrors each 42.5s, 6 mirrors every minute (signet of illusions)
The Prestige: 3s stealth every 30s, 6s every minute
Total defence per minute:
13s invuln
6 mirrors (4.5s mirage cloak)
8 blocks.
10s stealth.
Total amount of ambushes per minute: 20 (13 + 6 from dodge and no vigor assumed +1 at start)

Let's not return to this 😂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nIIAdhSGoo

Devils advocate hat off. This is me saying how others might attack and justify not returning the second dodge. I believe it should have a 2nd dodge back but the above calculation will easily persuade many not to return the 2nd dodge especially if they're biased. You need to talk to them like this to change their minds because they won't play mesmer and they won't listen unless you show that mesmer is weak in a way they cannot escape acknowledging. This post is long enough but I can do the math and show mirage is weak and needs it's 2nd dodge, sorry to those who hate walls of text.

Non blurred inscriptions or desert distortion mirage see link but don't pick desert distortion: https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/interrupt-mirage/
Mirage defences:
Distortion 4s every 42.5s
The Prestige: 3s stealth every 24s, 9s every minute
Signet of midnight 2s stealth every 35s, 4s every minute
Axes of symmetry 0.75s every 8s, 5.25s every minutes.
False oasis 1 mirror every 30s, 2 mirrors a minute

Total defences per minute:
13s stealth
4s Invuln
5.25s evasion (not dodge or cloak)
2 mirrors (1.5s mirage cloak)
Total ambushes per minute: 10 (vigor uptime assuming it takes on average 8s to regen a dodge. +2 mirrors +1 at start)

I have not counted the evasion from dodging as it's roughly the same between the 2 builds thanks to vigor nerfs, only counted the mirage cloak access as dodge utilisation is tricky to work out, show and prove while many skills are easier to show and have wiggle roam in uses per minute. I have also not counted boons and other aspects of mirage as historically it wasn't complained about outside of the now nerfed chaos trait line and CI.
As you can see without those 2 traits in a build that many consider "skilful" the defences and ambush potential is massively reduced to a point that it would not be an issue bringing back one dodge at all. If need be these 2 traits can be addressed but should be addressed separately and mirage should have it's 2nd dodge returned. Feel free to use this next time people pause about mirage dodge.

Edit: I didn't want to type out another response so I'll put it here. That's more or less what I'm saying @Moradorin.6217 that these people are biased and aren't listening so we need to go at them in a way they can't dismiss or deny. Hence the above wall of text showing that without 2 traits mirage builds are light on the defensive side and so there's no reason to hold back on 2nd dodge. A lot of people still see mirage as in the video from that hate fuelled guy which is the image we need to counter.

Edited February 18, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Moradorin.6217]

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I think the general point of "this is what other people think" outside the forum, in game and in their communities is worth emphasising. It's those complaints that got mesmer nerfed and stuck in the position it's in. It's those voices that make builds like those linked below saying "mesmer has too much invuln", "mirage has plenty of dodges" (they actually mean mirage cloak from desert distortion usually), "mesmer has too many blocks" or "mesmer is meta/high ranked in X, Y, Z".

If we can't address and identify what makes them think that way, then we will never see the buffs we want and many fun builds will be left to be niche at best or plain worse than other classes. We also then become reliant on crutches to be "meta", only to further infuriate (rightly or wrongly) a lot of people until everything but the crutch is nerfed.

https://guildjen.com/condition-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/
https://guildjen.com/celestial-virtuoso-roaming-build/
https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Fractal
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Raid_Builds
https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW_Roaming

Because they are outdated mindsets. because those viewpoints are based on slices of time from the past.  Like any spec, Mirage has changed over time. At some points it has things that got nerfed and was needed for over-performing. People remember that moment in time and have that image of Mirage seared in from that slice in time.

That IS bias tho. That is to look at Mirage as a whole and dismiss it because of various singular moments in balance is a cop out. Its a way to literally dismiss Mirage as an other so to speak and remove it from the balance conversation. That IS BIAS. No other objective word better sums that up.

Its bias because Mirage at present doesnt over-perform in wvw/pvp and is not frequently even used. Some people can still make decent use of it and that just shows they are suborn and willing to settle for being an underdog.

[Xaylin.1860]

13 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Signet of midnight 1s distortion every 35s, 2s every minute.

That's some dodgy math in your calculations 😜

 

But yes... dodges on Mirage aren't as oppressive as people make it seem. The issues lie elsewhere. Not only with BI and Desert Distortion by the way. Mirrors from Deception cause similar balancing issues and the duality of Mirage Cloak being the only access to Ambushes is problematic as well.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Im def that stubborn stupid person who sticks to Mirage no matter what! 🤣😅 I guess its like that when no other profession comes even close in terms of being unique and cool as Mirage is 😉 Im just tired of being the underdog, just bc of biase coming our way from everyone and their mothers...

Edited February 18, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[AshkyLicious.4729]

☝️

[Axl.8924]

Arenanet once they clipped mesmer they kept going non stop until of course mesmer was a shell of itself.

Arenanet at times has a tendency at times to run classes into the ground OOF.

[Moradorin.6217]

On 2/18/2023 at 7:50 AM, apharma.3741 said:

That's the point, people don't and most won't play mesmer. You can scream what you have said till your lungs bleed but they're not listening to your message in that way. So you need to communicate in the way they will listen and will accept.

I'll play well know ranger main of the forum devils advocate.

Mirage has plenty of invuln, mirage cloak and blocks, it doesn't need another dodge, see this build: https://guildjen.com/condition-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/
Mirage defences:
Distortion 4s every 42.5s
Signet of midnight 1s distortion every 35s, 2s every minute.
Signet of midnight 2s stealth every 35s, 4s every minute
Signet of ether 1s every 30s, 2s every minute
Signet of illusions 1s distortion every 60s + 4s from refreshed distortion 
Sceptre 2s block every 8s, easiest to say 6 times every minute.
Aegis from Chaos storm 1 block every 35s, 2 every minute.
Desert Distortion 3 mirrors each 42.5s, 6 mirrors every minute (signet of illusions)
The Prestige: 3s stealth every 30s, 6s every minute
Total defence per minute:
13s invuln
6 mirrors (4.5s mirage cloak)
8 blocks.
10s stealth.
Total amount of ambushes per minute: 20 (13 + 6 from dodge and no vigor assumed +1 at start)

Let's not return to this 😂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nIIAdhSGoo

Devils advocate hat off. This is me saying how others might attack and justify not returning the second dodge. I believe it should have a 2nd dodge back but the above calculation will easily persuade many not to return the 2nd dodge especially if they're biased. You need to talk to them like this to change their minds because they won't play mesmer and they won't listen unless you show that mesmer is weak in a way they cannot escape acknowledging. This post is long enough but I can do the math and show mirage is weak and needs it's 2nd dodge, sorry to those who hate walls of text.

Non blurred inscriptions or desert distortion mirage see link but don't pick desert distortion: https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/interrupt-mirage/
Mirage defences:
Distortion 4s every 42.5s
The Prestige: 3s stealth every 24s, 9s every minute
Signet of midnight 2s stealth every 35s, 4s every minute
Axes of symmetry 0.75s every 8s, 5.25s every minutes.
False oasis 1 mirror every 30s, 2 mirrors a minute

Total defences per minute:
13s stealth
4s Invuln
5.25s evasion (not dodge or cloak)
2 mirrors (1.5s mirage cloak)
Total ambushes per minute: 10 (vigor uptime assuming it takes on average 8s to regen a dodge. +2 mirrors +1 at start)

I have not counted the evasion from dodging as it's roughly the same between the 2 builds thanks to vigor nerfs, only counted the mirage cloak access as dodge utilisation is tricky to work out, show and prove while many skills are easier to show and have wiggle roam in uses per minute. I have also not counted boons and other aspects of mirage as historically it wasn't complained about outside of the now nerfed chaos trait line and CI.
As you can see without those 2 traits in a build that many consider "skilful" the defences and ambush potential is massively reduced to a point that it would not be an issue bringing back one dodge at all. If need be these 2 traits can be addressed but should be addressed separately and mirage should have it's 2nd dodge returned. Feel free to use this next time people pause about mirage dodge.

Edit: I didn't want to type out another response so I'll put it here. That's more or less what I'm saying @Moradorin.6217 that these people are biased and aren't listening so we need to go at them in a way they can't dismiss or deny. Hence the above wall of text showing that without 2 traits mirage builds are light on the defensive side and so there's no reason to hold back on 2nd dodge. A lot of people still see mirage as in the video from that hate fuelled guy which is the image we need to counter.

tbh I feel that has been done over and over during the last 3 years, but the forums have the same few people (trolls) who show up and derail threads or make inflammatory comments and the forum is like a school yard so having a coherent debate is not possible here.

I mean to be frank in the past I have flat out insulted people and gotten time outs (years ago) because I dont feel like its possible to actually have a civil debate here about heated topics because the format is just not conducive to it.

 

That said, its more productive to stay within the bounds of conduct, obviously.

 

However, I do appreciate your efforts to bring data to the discussion. Even though, I feel CMC and anyone in a position to give Mirage a consistent number of dodges, across game modes, has more data and more information about all that than any of us can present. Additionally, I see no evidence that they consider anything people here say. Therefore, I will not be spending my time trying to compose such information for them or anyone else in these forums. Personally, I think its a waste of time for the most part.

Instead, I will continue to wage my opinions about the quality of the attention given to Mirage and how it reflects on how professional and productive I feel the balance team and is with its time. (or the lack of professionalism as I see it)

[also the toon with the most hours on my account is still my mesmer even tho I have mostly not played mesmer in the last 3 years. My mesmer has ~6k hours on it and my main account is at 14k hours) I have other accounts some with map completion on multiple toons that also have Mesmers I no longer play unless I need to do towers or someone wants alacmir for stuff like TL. However, I am bitter and would like to enjoy playing my Mesmer across the 3 game modes like I once did and my last preferred spec was Mirage

I don't plan to ever invest that much time in anything in this game or anything Anet makes at this point. That said, If Mirage got its dodge back in all game modes, etc I would have allot less reason to feel bitter and have so many regrets about spending time on this game. Considering that feeling how could I be bothered to come up with data to show the haters?!?! Seriously.... ]

Edited February 19, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

tbh I feel that has been done over and over during the last 3 years, but the forums have the same few people (trolls) who show up and derail threads or make inflammatory comments and the forum is like a school yard so having a coherent debate is not possible here.

I mean to be frank in the past I have flat out insulted people and gotten time outs (years ago) because I dont feel like its possible to actually have a civil debate here about heated topics because the format is just not conducive to it.

 

That said, its more productive to stay within the bounds of conduct, obviously.

 

However, I do appreciate your efforts to bring data to the discussion. Even though, I feel CMC and anyone in a position to give Mirage a consistent number of dodges, across game modes, has more data and more information about all that than any of us can present. Additionally, I see no evidence that they consider anything people here say. Therefore, I will not be spending my time trying to compose such information for them or anyone else in these forums. Personally, I think its a waste of time for the most part.

Instead, I will continue to wage my opinions about the quality of the attention given to Mirage and how it reflects on how professional and productive I feel the balance team and is with its time. (or the lack of professionalism as I see it)

[also the toon with the most hours on my account is still my mesmer even tho I have mostly not played mesmer in the last 3 years. My mesmer has ~6k hours on it and my main account is at 14k hours) I have other accounts some with map completion on multiple toons that also have Mesmers I no longer play unless I need to do towers or someone wants alacmir for stuff like TL. However, I am bitter and would like to enjoy playing my Mesmer across the 3 game modes like I once did and my last preferred spec was Mirage

I don't plan to ever invest that much time in anything in this game or anything Anet makes at this point. That said, If Mirage got its dodge back in all game modes, etc I would have allot less reason to feel bitter and have so many regrets about spending time on this game. Considering that feeling how could I be bothered to come up with data to show the haters?!?! Seriously.... ]

Mesmer is good, just not in PvP. 

You will struggle to find any way to carry a group outside of maybe a Chronomancer in any PvP gamemode.

Most other classes have a good solid well rounded pick for PVP. This is exactly why I mostly play Ranger in all PvP gamemodes, with the odd Mesmer WvW escapade.

 

Most don't care for Mesmer in anything other than WvW and most really don't like Mirage and the potential of a second dodge so it's no surprise we have heard no news. 

[apharma.3741]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Mesmer is good, just not in PvP. 

You will struggle to find any way to carry a group outside of maybe a Chronomancer in any PvP gamemode.

Most other classes have a good solid well rounded pick for PVP. This is exactly why I mostly play Ranger in all PvP gamemodes, with the odd Mesmer WvW escapade.

 

Most don't care for Mesmer in anything other than WvW and most really don't like Mirage and the potential of a second dodge so it's no surprise we have heard no news. 

You're mostly right. It has serviceable PvE builds and is pretty good in both open world and instanced with low intensity variations. It's not got great or competitive support options but it's still OK and realistically shouldn't hold a group back if someone joined on mesmer as long as they're not stubborn about "I only play core" or something. It also has and is one of the few classes in the WvW zerg meta with chrono.

Where it falls down is WvW roaming and small scale. It's not super bad but with mounts making everyone more mobile that has brought more combat adept builds closer to mesmer without the downside. Additionally anti stealth has increased substantially diminishing mesmers get out ability because of thief's ability to camp stealth. Short of running PU or sword mirage with blurred inscriptions and desert distortion you're slower than most roamers now which shouldn't be the case for mirage.

Then there's the elephant in the room, you ever fought a celestial harbinger, core necro, druid, soulbeast, willbender, renegade, catalyst, PP DrD, mechanist, scrapper, power DE, willbender, spellbreaker, bladesworn, DrD, holo, mechanist, catalyst, DH, condi weaver, necro, druid, herald or willbender? Most of these are either better in combat to the point you won't win without massively outskilling them or they are more mobile and can simply use swiftness to walk away if you're using the best build available. You are simply outclassed in roaming at the moment, especially some that are basically can't lose like cele rangers.

[Moradorin.6217]

15 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Mesmer is good, just not in PvP. 

You will struggle to find any way to carry a group outside of maybe a Chronomancer in any PvP gamemode.

Most other classes have a good solid well rounded pick for PVP. This is exactly why I mostly play Ranger in all PvP gamemodes, with the odd Mesmer WvW escapade.

 

Most don't care for Mesmer in anything other than WvW and most really don't like Mirage and the potential of a second dodge so it's no surprise we have heard no news. 

I see no point to your response. The fact that CMC himself raised the topic of Mirage's number of dodges during the stream that they announced Vindicator is being given an additional dodge(all game modes). They have yet to follow through or mention it again.

 

Its a very specific issue and it is 100% on CMC and the balance team. They made the change 3 years ago then decided to mention it in Oct 2022, seemingly to help avoid pushback on adding a 2nd dodge to Vindicator since they never did or said anything about Mirage.

 

That seems allot like the balance team intentionally distracted viewers to deceive them into thinking that Mirage's split-mode number of dodges would be addressed too to avoid people questioning the choice to give Vindicator a 2nd dodge (in all 3 modes).

Its just bias and you post is an obvious attempt to distract people by talking about other specs in a context that has nothing to do with what I stated.

[Veprovina.4876]

Yeah no one is debating that Virtuoso is nice right now In strikes, or that Chrono can deal with open world trash mobs pretty fast, or that mirage in PvE can do, well, below average alacdps, but whatever, usable in a pinch.

 

That's not where one dodge is the problem, and if you do dig deeper, I'm sure you can find a lot of problems in PvE too,  ut for now, the priority is the return of the second dodge.

 

And the longer this thread goes the worse the balance team will look for ignoring us so...

I can wait and post here in the meantime...

Edited February 20, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[Gesbo.6420]

We can all agree that them mentioning mirages second dodge when vindicator endurance system was updates gave mesmers something to hold on and the notion that it will be addressed shortly. I dont think that there is any excuse for them to tease it and then act as if nothing was said in 2 consecutive balance patches. I belive that if in march there aren't any changes for the mirage there will be quite a few very very upset players. People will revolt.

[Mell.4873]

Either way unless something substantial changes I will keep maining Ranger in sPvP/WvW. 

It is very fun having 10 second Barrages during a siege and watching people drop like flies with all of the self-buffs I have. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Mell.4873