ARC DPS (and all damage meters) are ruining the game

[SolidTx.3249]

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

[Lysico.4906]

Don’t use them.  I don’t.  Could care less what others say with them.    OP you are getting too caught up in what other people think. 

[soul.9651]

10 minutes ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

If more people were thinking like you most of people wouldnt bother to improve their gameplay and most of high end content wouldnt be cleared, you wouldnt be able to get through w1 first boss if noone cared about their gameplay... Sure you can say this game should be played how u want, and i say gl with that because having arc dps exposes every dps main and their magis stats and 4 runes they are running.. why people should carry anyone and dont know about it? 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

"If we did half the testing we would have half the cases (covid)"

That is what is being advocated here, for people to be ignorant of their dps. Sorry to break it to you but like covid, your awful dps will exist regardless of there being a meter or not. 

In the end knowledge is power, dps meter push people to get better at the game, this allows more content to get cleared, because problem are easily identified and there less unfonded finger pointing. Finger pointing kills groups, while telling someone to practice on the golem with them looking at the log doesn't. 

Build diversity right now is screwed because of what one dev did to mechanist, while ruining almost every other class. Without a dps meter, it would be easy to hide the poor job they did (for example saying power reaper got a slight buff while lossing 15% of its damage).

I wish i had a time machine to take you back to HoT, where everyone was awful at the game, before comps and rotations were not figured out. Dps meters added a powerful tool for players to figure out how to optimize their playstyles and make more reliable clears.

[Aelin.9317]

FFXIV is my 'main' mmo and I personally quite enjoy parsing there ^.^. Primarily to gauge my own performance of course. I swapped from a healer main to dps main for my static this tier and was super pleased to see my dps is very good in my new role! I really needed a change after healing for 4 years :3

Besides that the parser is nice to see the job performance, for example in our most recent tier there are sadly a few outliers that are underperforming for week 1 savage clear. Parties might have no real idea why they were not meeting this dps check without them, as they were doing their rotation optimally but the job they play was letting them down . Sadly many people had to swap their job for the sake of the clear. An issue I am sincerely hoping Square Enix rectifies soon. I love being able to say any job can clear all content and while 99% of the time that is true is was sadly the 1% time recently it made quite a difference. 

Without the community to point out this imbalance I am not sure if the disparity would be addressed, or at least how quickly! The dedication and experience of the players can be invaluable in giving the devs insight into the class/job balance. And data from dps meter can give evidence to players claims. 

So to me these are definite pros to a dps meter and I don't see why they would not also apply to Guild Wars 2 ^.^

However, ffxiv will punish very harshly if it is used as a means to belittle. I am glad of this also. I hope this is also the case here! Weaponizing the dps meter is not cool. 

As we all know when such things are measured people will become competitive over who can do more, or what class is better etc. Others can say x or y is dead weight when really it just does not perform at the top 1%. As you say many will simply follow "meta" and will reject other things without having proper reason/understanding for why. These are the negatives of such things. I assume then that here the meter is not against ToS. But even if it were, the meter would not stop being used. Simply talked about less on official channels. 

I think if I look to go raiding in this game too or find myself struggling to dps I might try and check on the meter here, give me an idea of where I am starting from and I can see how much I improve in my rotation! It also seems helpful to see how successful theorycrafted builds would be. 

If there is indeed such issues at higher levels something needs to be done to change the culture, imo. For instance, maybe you get more rewards for helping someone on their first clear? I don't know how people would feel about having something such as mentor achievements? Incentive for the vets to help newbies might go a long way. New players like myself get a much needed help and the veteran gets something for his time too that is more tangible to him than just my happiness! 😂

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

The majority of people who use Arc don't really care about your damage.

49 minutes ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

Right, Arc caused the community to not be friendly towards people trying to learn Raids! That's why there are training guilds and a bunch of training runs on LFG. Totally.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

The main problem I have with ARC is that despite being able to log many mechanics people just watch the dps.
A dps meter should be integrated in the game and present itself in a way to highlight ALL KEY ELEMENTS to a fight.
Damage dealt, damage taken, healing, evades, failed mechanic per player, etc...
Too many people reach top dps because they have no idea how to dodge, they're sitting ducks expecting to be endlessly overhealed and to have constant stability. When that doesn't happens it's fun to watch them crumble, like when they fly off Skorvald's platform if stability is lacking.

So I wouldn't remove ARC, I would intergrate it in the game, but in a more comprehensive way.

[disco.9302]

49 minutes ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

I think you'll find that currently, many classes are viable in endgame and barely any get called out, let alone kicked. In fact getting kicked is down to performance, not class pick. I can agree that most core builds don't get selected because they are generally inferior in pve, however I don't see this as an issue. The trouble with buffing a core traitline is that it also buffs an elise spec build which uses it.

Every other class I have seen and do see being used in all sorts of slots (dps or other)

Lets look at the options:

Guard - can do quick/heal/dps/tank

Ranger - can do alac/heal/dps/tank

Engi - can do alac/quick/heal/dps/tank

Necro - can do quick/heal/dps

Ele - can do alac/heal/dps

Thief - can do alac/heal/dps

Mesmer - can do alac/quick/heal/dps/tank

Rev - can do alac/quick/dps/heal/tank

Warrior - can do quick/dps/tank

 

The thing to understand is that some elite specs function better in pvp or wvw. Willbender and Vindicator are seen far less in pve, but more prevalent in pvp or wvw; same with spellbreaker.

 

Removing the use of dps meters will not change how the meta works. The community will work out a way to find the best in slot one way or another and that information will become available to all. 

Removing the use of DPS meters in content will make it a more  hostile environment as people will struggle to understand what is lacking (whos dps) and be frustrated if it leads to failure. At present, the demands of most content(excluding HT CM perhaps) aren't that high. The dps checks in all raids and most CM strikes are relatively forgiving which means people are accepting of many classes and builds.

 

The state of unbalance will always be in the game because 1 build will marginally outperform another. What should be considered, instead of "rEmoVe dPS mEteRs" are adjustments to make high APM builds more rewarding than low APM ones.

[PinkTacoLover.7603]

next what?

ban who dont want rangers in squad in wvw ?

😂

[Lottie.5370]

1 hour ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

It makes the game better for me, because I can easily see how I am doing on encounters and helps me improve in the future. It lets me know if people aren't getting my boons, if I am failing mechanics (and if so, which ones). It can also help me, as a commander, to understand why we are wiping. Sometimes you can die and really have no idea why, because you didn't see what happened. It also helps me when leading a training raid to see who needs a bit more support, and maybe to even give specific advice about things.

 

Arc is not the issue. There is an in-game damage meter on the golem, people would STILL know the DPS of various classes, there would still be the exact same meta. If you think the removal of a DPS meter would change that, then you're sorely mistaken.

 

How often are you doing end-game content? Because quite often the people that say getting into endgame is hard are the type of people to try and join experienced groups whilst not being experienced, and call people toxic when they get kicked/not wanted. There's SO, SO many communities for getting into endgame, that run trainings, that coach you - it has never been easier to get into end-game than it is now, especially raids with the emboldened buff. No one is kicking people for bad DPS in a training unless they are literally stalling the entire group's progression because they didn't bother to actually prepare for the content.

 

You can also just (radical solution) make your own kitten groups and tell people they can play whatever they want, if that's what you want. Or does Arcdps somehow stop you from doing that?

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

You are mixing up stuff that is unrelated to each other and to ArcDPS.

First up, learning raids has nothing to do with DPS but with learning the encounters' mechanics, first and foremost. So, if someone isn't being taken along it's because the group isn't a training group but experienced and wants to clear the content successfully and without delays.

Furthermore, the problem regarding certain professions and builds being favored over others is also not a DPS issue but an issue with how ANet has balanced professions in the past and present. ArcDPS has nothing to do with it.

Conclusion: ArcDPS is not the problem, it's just a tool that, among its other purposes, can help identify the source of insufficient damage. Insufficient damage is very noticeable even without using ArcDPS -- you can quickly tell if a group is doing well or not.

Hard content cannot be beaten with subpar damage. If, for instance, you are attempting the Xunlai Jade Junkyard CM title without high DPS, you are doomed to fail -- the boss has an enrage timer.

If you are not willing to be a good DPS player, that's on you -- but you are hampering your group's progress in certain areas when you are being ignorant towards the significance of your own role in the team. High DPS is not limited to only a few professions.
 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

I like arc dps in that I can see what damage MYSELF is doing. In all honesty most end game content as long as you are doing halfway decent dps and you learn and know the mechanics you are good. I am still powing around on my alt account doing strikes/raids with ascended trinkets and not even a full set of ascended gear, mostly exotic and not full zerk stats and not full runes and no one has said anything once. I do the mechanics, we get the clears and at the end of the day, that’s what matters is getting the clears.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

My only complaint is that you can't measure healing, it leaves supports out in the cold, and we really have no way to optimise our healing without just guesswork and the terrible in-game combat log.

[Wolfshade.9251]

OP, not sure if you know this already but... arcdps isn't just a damage meter.  It's got a whole lot of other useful functions. My favourites being killproof table, boon table and breakbar chart. KP table lets me check the experience level of whoever joins my group, leading to smoother clears on average. (yes yes, I'm a toxic gatekeeper when I want a fast clear). Boon table allows me to see boon uptimes in various subgroups, which is especially important if I'm testing off-meta support specs or if one of the dpsers mentions boon uptime issues - it's much easier for me to fix that as a commander. Breakbar table is insanely good if a training group fails a CC phase: ok who was doing less CC than necessary and which skills can I suggest for his/her class to helps us beat that breakbar? Then there's also the logs, which enable me to compare my own performance across multiple attempts (should I run this or that trait on this encounter to maximise my damage?) As well as checking which mechanic failed.

As for the damage meter itself, it's insanely useful for a commander - not just for bullying low-damage noobies! Ever wondered which one of your 6 mesmers on SH is the alacmirage? Arc can help. Forgot which mechanist was the healer and which was facerolling on his keyboard with rifle equipped? Arc will show you. Someone in your experienced group does less damage than a support class? Maybe they forgot to switch gear stats, better ask just in case.

[Cuks.8241]

2 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest

Have you ever been kicked out of the squad for being the wrong class? I dont see this at all. 

Dps meter actually prevents this. If you can do your job, dps meter proves it regardless of  your class, build, gear. 

Without dps meter people blame class, build, gear for fail. With dps meter you can see exactly who is not up to par. 

[Vilin.8056]

Then let's revert back to the old way, like how it was done in the past years:

The commander will ask every player to ping gears, then instant kick anyone who does not meet the meta requirement.

The community will always find ways to filter out bad players, even without DPS meters. With ArcDPS, least now you have one chance to prove yourself.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Sobx.1758]

No, they're not.

 

2 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

And you're blaming game's balancing on meters or what is this point about?

2 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

False, almost nobody checks your build in the first place. If there are specific builds requested, they're mostly not directly related to their own dps.

2 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

Well, then ""community"" (nice generalization in an attempt to push your initial claim) should understand what content is balanced around and what's actually needed for success. The answer here isn't "someone's meta build". But again, you're just generalizing, for the most part people don't check what build you're playing, if meters do anything they just help outline terrible performance irrelevant of the used build.
Some people simply scrape "meta" builds from the sites because they're the ones being shared and copying is easier than creating. It doesn't mean that somehow only meta builds are accepted. If people want to copy their builds then it's also their right and I don't see how that's somehow bad.

2 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

...why/how? For now this looks like a random unsupported claim.

If anything, meters allow for people to receive more accurate feedback about which areas of their gameplay can/should be improved to succeed. In no way it makes learning harder, it's pretty much the opposite as long as someone actually wants to learn.

2 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

False, it sure would allow people to slack more and not have a reason to improve. (or even understand they can improve in the first place)

 

2 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

If more people were thinking like you most of people wouldnt bother to improve their gameplay and most of high end content wouldnt be cleared, you wouldnt be able to get through w1 first boss if noone cared about their gameplay... Sure you can say this game should be played how u want, and i say gl with that because having arc dps exposes every dps main and their magis stats and 4 runes they are running.. why people should carry anyone and dont know about it? 

True. Saying that having less reliable feedback would somehow improve the game -and that's what OP is doing here- is in itself a faulty logic.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Freya.9075]

My reaper is proof. I have never been kicked or not able to do content being a middle dps class. I don’t need or want higher dps as reaper is the profession I enjoy most and know best. And I still get in top 5 usually when i play. Meta classes is overrated.
 

If you come across players who kick you for playing a class you enjoy, consider their kick a favor. You don’t have to play with them when they do and got away from their toxicity 

[Bladestrom.6425]

Ive played thousands of hours, i dont raid or do hard mode fractals/strikes (i do plenty normal)and i never  see toxicity over meters and ive never seen a run fail yet or drama really. Meters are generally used by those playing the dps race imo, its not actually needed or relevant to 95+% of gw2 content.  The problem happens when people try to 'advise' using meters in the 95+% of content.

Edited September 5, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

There is nothing to prove, you are stating an opinion so at best one could sway your opinion with facts. Given you do not believe in factual data and the positive effects it can have, this could seem rather difficult.

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

Actually they aren't given the wide viability of classes by now. The biggest issues in end game are diverging attitudes and approaches to playing the game.

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

Yes there are and a dps meter allows you to roll one of those classes and show via DATA that your build and class are viable.

At the same time you are bashing the work of players who very likely spend a multitude of hours more than you on understanding and min-maxing the game and then sharing their findings.

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

True. The reason is simple: it is far easier to copy a build and work on that than actually develop a build on your own and master it. Imitation is most often easier than innovation.

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

Join a training discord, guild or group. Be there to LEARN and not force your way of play on others, or make your own group.

Some training runs have minimum requirements in regards to which classes are considered "good to start out on or beginner friendly". These restrictions most often aren't based around Snowcrows or other build sites but rather experience. Fact: some builds are just easier than other builds just some classes/elites are easier than others.

You might think you are "the kitten" on your custom, celestial, untamed build while playing at 20 actions per minute, most likely you are not though.

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

A lack of data has never produced more reliable results. We've had those dark ages in the past. I see no reason to return to them.

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

Yes, I am sure that being less able to discern mistakes, problems or areas to work on will do wonders on how players are able to clear content and/or behave with each other.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, SolidTx.3249 said:

- prove me wrong

 

-- the biggest issues in end game are balance related

-- there are far more "viable" classes that never get picked in LFG because they arent the snowcrows perfect meta build

-- the community is like lemmings and indexes on the classes that are perceived as making the content the easiest it can be; regardless of truth

-- ARC dps and the like have driven the community to a caustic state - where end game is not friendly to players trying to learn raiding and other end game content like high end fractals

-- if ANET really wanted to make end game more viable for all players - they would not allow any DPS meters - and this would improve end game for most players

-- the above would improve the game overall and the reputation of the community

Class and/or build exclusion in endgame content was worse before ArcDPS. The dps meter proved that far more classes can perform well than were previously known. It saved instanced content.

[Bladestrom.6425]

7 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Class and/or build exclusion in endgame content was worse before ArcDPS. The dps meter proved that far more classes can perform well than were previously known. It saved instanced content.

 The problem is and always will be where people try to criticise other players based on meter results and builds in a context where it is not relevant, e.g if in a normal dungeon x and the dps needed to kill a boss is say Y dps, they criticise where actually the group is already doing far far more than Y DPs that is required (which is a matter of fact since builds have incrementally become more powerful with ascended gear and food etc)  Sometimes this is toxic players who are really saying, 'im so good, your bad' in a passive aggressive way.

I.e in raids meters are a good thing, in a 5 man normal fractal it was not needed 5 years ago, and certainly not today..

Edited September 5, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 The problem is and always will be where people try to criticise other players based on meter results and builds in a context where it is not relevant, e.g if in a normal dungeon x and the dps needed to kill a boss is say Y dps, they criticise where actually the group is already doing far far more than Y DPs that is required (which is a matter of fact since builds have incrementally become more powerful with ascended gear and food etc)  Sometimes this is toxic players who are really saying, 'im so good, your bad' in a passive aggressive way.

Toxicity existed before dps meter and it will exist without them again. Players who want to be toxic will be. Let's not pretend this was not the case before.

14 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

I.e in raids meters are a good thing, in a 5 man normal fractal it was not needed 5 years ago, and certainly not today..

Let me remind you once again:

- ping zerker or kick

- 5k AP, 80 only

- no nero, no ranger

- 4 warrior, 1 mesmer, all others kick

- exp (short for experienced with content) or kick

 

Remember those LFGs? While most 5 man content has been out-scaled by power creep that this is unlikely to return in a similar manner (as most easy content sees less gating), expect an increase in search "qualifiers" even if there is no dps meter. It's players doing guess work on what they have to omit from the party to increase success, only now not based around any actual data. I can even tell you right now what two of them would be based off of current class representation:

- mech only

- no elementalists

 

Again, lack of data has NEVER produced better results across the entire game.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I have a solution, let's just all roll Machinists then DPS meters become completely unnecessary because even the worst builds and gameplay still does average to good DPS.

 

What do you mean we've already done that? Well, nevermind..

Edited September 5, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Gehenna.3625]

Raids are harder content and a minimum level of dps is required to beat bosses in time. So class balance aside, how would you know where improvements are needed when you fail to kill a boss, if not with a parser?

You see, a person can have a meta snowcrows build and just suck at playing it. That's why it's not just about class balance. So how can you tell who needs to improve and by how much?

What you describe is the meta slaves (people who cannot see beyond the meta builds that someone else made). And that's an unfortunate side effect of parsers but at the same time, parsers are needed for progression raiding. If you have alternative suggestions let us know, but I don't have any ideas.

Perhaps you should find a guild that does raids and is more open minded about it, instead of relying on LFG where you will mostly meet people who, when you think about it, that you don't really want to play with because of their attitudes.