Would you like a map that uses masteries from different expansions?

[Taclism.2406]

Just wondering what's everyone take on this question. 
Looking at masteries, so many feel very occasional because they're as gating systems for their specific expansion and have no general use like Raptor or gliding :

poison resist, jumping shrooms & talking / trading with NPCs in HoT ;
jackal mount for portals & mantaray for death sand in PoF ; etc

Would you like new content that combines many of these mechanics that were less used. For exemple, a multibranch "jumping puzzle", each branch forcing you to use a specific mount. The more branches you finish, the bigger the reward

/discuss
 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Taclism.2406

[Gehenna.3625]

I think my answer would be no with the reason that it will be even more confusing for new players and perhaps also existing players.

And a JP that uses every single mount will get resistance simply because many people don't own every single mount and well with the Skyscale you can mimic some of the other mounts as it is. So that idea is not a good one. 

All in all I prefer things to stay within their expansion as much as possible. Some of the things that I get are universal, are mount usage, gliding and fishing. I suppose I would be for giving the Jackal mount some more usage in other areas but that's it.

But to need Itzel Poison Lore in other expansions, for example, would be essentially forcing players to own HoT and play it before the others as well. So that means if you don't own HoT but do own PoF there are parts of PoF where you can't go even though you paid for that expansion. A lot of players nowadays start with PoF because of the mounts as it is.

[AgentMoore.9453]

I think this would be nice - in moderation. For example, jumping mushrooms get re-used in IBS maps and you can glide everywhere (barring some no-fly zones) and your Jackal can use the occasional sand portal in Dragonfall, but all of these places are still accessible by other means for people who don't have the related expansions where those masteries are picked up.

So long as you aren't forced to go buy unrelated content to participate in the latest stuff, implementing previous mastery elements is a good way to add depth to gameplay. This should be the goal: A nice extra rather than a requirement.

Edited February 23, 2023 by AgentMoore.9453
Forgot a word.

[Taclism.2406]

27 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

So that means if you don't own HoT but do own PoF there are parts of PoF where you can't go even though you paid for that expansion.

My bad I wasnt clear enough and edited 1st post, but I meant a new map. Sort of like Eye of the north for GW1, content that's designed with "everything they already produced" in mind. AgentMoore's take for already existing content would also be very nice and serves the same idea of giving masteries more purpose tho.
And TBH yes Poison Lore is the most problematic exemple ; even within HoT it has no fun potential and serves as a pure gating system with no other use. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Taclism.2406

[Farohna.6247]

I wouldn't mind seeing a few, like the bouncing mushrooms in Drizzlewood, used as an extra way to get around or as something to assist.  We can use the way stations in much of the world, jade bots help out the individual, so why not a new map with some of the older masteries?  Might be fun, give some extra use to them, encourage some people to finish off a mastery.  

[Danikat.8537]

As other people have said it could work, as long as it's optional. Either there needs to be another way to do the same things/reach the same places or it needs to be something that's not required.

Like how there's rifts in core Tyria maps which can only be activated with a skyscale, but all you're missing out on if you can't use them is some volatile magic and an achievement and title. If it was something like that I don't think anyone would mind, because it's not a problem if you can't use it.

[Ashantara.8731]

Dragonfall did it well. No reason to not repeat that successful implementation of several old Masteries.

[Fueki.4753]

I don't mind that idea, as long as missing masteries do not prevent story progress.

[Gibson.4036]

I'd enjoy chests hidden here and there that offer a moderate reward for having previous masteries.

The chest rewards should be tuned so that it feels worthwhile to loot them, but don't feel absolutely necessary.

Poison resistance, wallows, lava tubes, updrafts, jackal portals, jumping shrooms could all provide access to a chest that would be inaccessible or hard to reach otherwise.

These could also be used to open shortcuts that make map movement easier. There are so many of them, there could be several different ones mixed into a zone, so that if you have one you can find a good route, though it may be different than someone else would take. If you have none, you can take the longer route.

It'd be nice to see adrenal and speed boost mushrooms in other zones as well. I don't feel like either is game changing enough to limit anyone who doesn't have them.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Cuks.8241]

There are a few maps, areas that do that already. Like mentioned Dragonfall has various options. You can use LS3 gliding skills during Dragon's End meta.  I do hope they add more Griffon adventures. 

[Astralporing.1957]

I don't want for more maps to take use of the masteries that were originally designed with very narrow use. What i'd actually like to happen is for masteries to become more generally useful, instead of being designed with narrow, single-map (or LS/expansion) restricted utility.

So, for example, in case of IBS Dragon Slayer mastery, i do not want for Anet to create more instances where it would work. I'd want for it to be generally usable against all dragon minions whenever i might find them, in both OW and instances, and working for all elder dragons, not just Jormag and Primordus.

I do realize, that, unfortunately, it can't be done with most of currently existing masteries, as they were specifically designed around the idea of them being useful in a very specific situation (usually by bypassing some mechanic that got introduced only to make that mastery necessary), but i'd prefer this to be the default approach to any future masteries.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Mastery abilities should generally not be limited to certain maps imo. The new gliding abilities in Bloodstone Fen were great, but it's a pity that they are not available everywhere.

[AgentMoore.9453]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I don't want for more maps to take use of the masteries that were originally designed with very narrow use.

I mean yeah, fair point. Even in Bjora, the essence mastery wasn't very useful. Some masteries are clearly there just to add specific flavor to a specific area and either wouldn't be useful in other places or would actively interfere. The essence mastery in particular already fights with other special action abilities, such as the EMP, so having to account for it in every map going forward would be very silly and it'd make more sense to just leave it behind.

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

What i'd actually like to happen is for masteries to become more generally useful

Yes, I'd like this too. We can probably have both though, re-using the masteries that are solid and don't interfere (gliding, updrafts, mushrooms, Beetle walls, Jackal portals, Skyscale paths, etc.) and leaving behind the less sensible/impactful things. As long as it adds to the experience without taking anything away (or without locking people out of regular progress) we should be good to go.

[DarcShriek.5829]

I have all the masteries in the game and would really enjoy it if they mixed them up.

However, it's just not possible because not everyone that plays owns all the expansions.

Edited February 24, 2023 by DarcShriek.5829

[Excursion.9752]

I am all for adding everything accessible via the mastery traits to everyplace in the game including core. Why not we can already use mounts and glide why not everything else? If anything it lets people, who are new, know what is to come and look forward to obtaining a new skill all while giving a new view to an old map for the veterans.

It has always seemed pointless to me to have some of these masteries when they can't be used everywhere. Was there really a need to master it in the first place for just a few areas?  At the time of release yes,  back then the reason was to help with mobility but ever since we got mounts most things have become trivial. 

 

[Gibson.4036]

32 minutes ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

I have all the masteries in the game and would really enjoy it if they mixed them up.

However, it's just not possible because not everyone that plays owns all the expansions.

But we’re okay with people not having especs or stat combos without the given expansion.

As long as the mastery in question doesn’t block the story, metas, or strike participation, why would it be impossible to include it in future maps?

[Astralporing.1957]

58 minutes ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

I have all the masteries in the game and would really enjoy it if they mixed them up.

However, it's just not possible because not everyone that plays owns all the expansions.

And? Not everyone has HoT/PoF, and yet it does not prevent gliding or mounts from being universally applicable... Not everyone has IBS, and yet people get to use EMP all over the game... Not everyone has EoD, and yet jade bots vit buff and salvage protocols are universally useable in all the previous content as well...

You seem to confuse masteries being more widely required with them being more widely useful. We're not asking tor the former but for the latter.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And? Not everyone has HoT/PoF, and yet it does not prevent gliding or mounts from being universally applicable... Not everyone has IBS, and yet people get to use EMP all over the game... Not everyone has EoD, and yet jade bots vit buff and salvage protocols are universally useable in all the previous content as well...

You seem to confuse masteries being more widely required with them being more widely useful. We're not asking tor the former but for the latter.

As someone who's seemingly always all for horizontal progression (and so am I), you seem to be missing how what you're describing here is dangerously close to vertical progression, just expressed differently than in "level cap" or "gear stats" growing. Are you in favor of moving towards vertical growth now? Because if you're asking for masteries to be more like "strongest cc source in the game" or literal "free stats tacked on the regular build" then you're asking for vertical progression/power creep, instead of "useful" masteries.

Things like mounts or gliding (which subsequentially need to be granted to anyone not having them, like EoD did it)? Not much of an issue for me. That other stuff? No, thanks.

[Gibson.4036]

The different mastery tools make room for emergent gameplay, and don’t necessitate power creep.

Toxic bacon is an example. This hero point was clearly intended to be paired with adrenal mushroom use. After PoF, it’s now commonly done with the barrier from Jackal dismount.

A mastery from a different expansion becomes an alternate, preferred but not required, way to do some content.

EMPs have become ubiquitous, but people also often specifically start fights on Springer for the initial breakbar damage, and now we have siege turtles as well. None of these are necessary. Players who know the ccs on their builds are just as capable of breaking the bar. But players can earn the other tools and feel the rpg growth of their characters when they use them in future content.

[Gibson.4036]

26 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As someone who's seemingly always all for horizontal progression (and so am I), you seem to be missing how what you're describing here is dangerously close to vertical progression, just expressed differently than in "level cap" or "gear stats" growing. Are you in favor of moving towards vertical growth now? Because if you're asking for masteries to be more like "strongest cc source in the game" or literal "free stats tacked on the regular build" then you're asking for vertical progression/power creep, instead of "useful" masteries.

Things like mounts or gliding (which subsequentially need to be granted to anyone not having them, like EoD did it)? Not much of an issue for me. That other stuff? No, thanks.

Ironically, masteries that are only narrowly useful in the content in which they were released function more like the vertical progression mechanic.
 

Earn something each expansion that will be obsolete as soon as the next expansion is released and you need to earn all over again.

The promise of horizontal progression is gaining new ways to do things that broaden your character. If those things keep losing their usefulness, you have no progression.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

The different mastery tools make room for emergent gameplay, and don’t necessitate power creep.

Toxic bacon is an example. This hero point was clearly intended to be paired with adrenal mushroom use. After PoF, it’s now commonly done with the barrier from Jackal dismount.

It always could have been done with simply using any "gain health every second" food btw. Not much of an emergence gameplay provided by jackal 😅

5 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Ironically, masteries that are only narrowly useful in the content in which they were released function more like the vertical progression mechanic.

Maybe, but in a vastly more contained environment. The plus of these was always how you could -for example- still take a break from the game or skip some expansions, come back and not need to chase the numbers/gear/masteries since you were given more power by them... mostly in their relevant zones. If you skip the zone, you don't need it to continue playing in the next expansion.
As for the things like emp, I already explained that in another thread: as much as -in the event of the later content not being balanced arond having that ability- it might not be "needed" for everyone, it still makes players having it significantly stronger, trivializing content for everyone by mere presence of few individual players spamming that skill. It's counterproductive to introducing any relatively meaningful content/mechanic and a lot of the players might not even know what the game's mechanics are or why they should use it because those -now stronger due to previous masteries- individuals slam through them by themselves.

 

[mythical.6315]

Regarding masteries useable on all maps, I don’t mind this so long as the developers do not have to go back to make them work. This includes adding jumping mushrooms, updrafts, leylines, and so forth.
 

I’m all for masteries that are designed for general use though but I find that unlikely to occur except for a small few as it seems that most are just used to pad the mastery system.