DPS power creep is out of control - all content before IBS dies too fast to even be remotely fun

[Kozumi.5816]

Can you please buff the HP values of all mobs before IBS by at least 50%?

If I play Vindicator, I jump on mobs and they die to my jump. That isn't fun, if I wanted to play a mobile auto-battler I'd turn my phone on and do it.

For a game that prides itself on "no gear progression" and "no power progression", the amount of power creep is absurd and invalidates all the old content. This game is turning into "Play the expac" just like themepark MMO's, why?

[Jianyu.7065]

From the perspective of one relatively strong class. Seems legit. 

[Healix.5819]

13 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

For a game that prides itself on "no gear progression" and "no power progression", the amount of power creep is absurd and invalidates all the old content. This game is turning into "Play the expac" just like themepark MMO's, why?

Fun fact - GW2 wasn't supposed to be 100% horizontal, they originally planned on having a gear treadmill and increasing the level cap with expansions.

[Omega.6801]

GW2 is a themepark MMO. Always was, always will be. It is how it ways designed, The only "sandboxy" part of GW2 is WvWvW, where powercreep is mutual.
"No power progression" is something I've never heard before, when talking about this game.
Powercreep is something that happens more or less naturally in every game over the course of a decade.
While I wouldn't mind buffing some stuff; 1) for every player like ourself who want tthe game to be more chalenging, there are ten players who struggl with basic mechanics like CC or dodging who will fill the forum with vitriol screaming "play how you want they said" and "I thought this was a casual game". 2) Not every one is at endgame level. Every day players start their journey into GW2 and for them, what seems like a harmless buff can become an unsurmountable obstacle.

[Solvar.7953]

I tend to like mowing through stuff.  Not that I necessarily want an easy game, but the large abundance of trash mobs in the game which server no real purpose, I find it much more enjoyable if I don't have to spend a bunch of time killing them in story instances or just in OW for storyline progression.

I wouldn't mind the world bosses being buffed up some (though this really needs proper scaling so even smaller groups of players can do them, and I'm not  sure if that can really be done right, since 10 high DPS players might be doing more damage than a random group of 25 people).  Which makes increasing HP tricky - while it may be too low for players who have optimized builds and equipment, many players are not player characters set up that way.

 

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Making mobs be bigger bags of health =/= challenge.  The only reason I could see for just adding HP would be to be able to get a few hits in.  This might be needed, because this game is heavily weighted toward large group content.  However, doing it right, so that the events don't become dull slogs for smaller groups would require a fine touch on scaling.

[borgs.6103]

I'd rather have mobs evade attacks, give themselves Protection and Resolution, and apply Immobilize and Weakness to players. 

Fun times will be had.

[Hotride.2187]

No thanks. Tone done your build if things are dying too fast for you, its that simple.

[Dante.1508]

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Can you please buff the HP values of all mobs before IBS by at least 50%?

If I play Vindicator, I jump on mobs and they die to my jump. That isn't fun, if I wanted to play a mobile auto-battler I'd turn my phone on and do it.

For a game that prides itself on "no gear progression" and "no power progression", the amount of power creep is absurd and invalidates all the old content. This game is turning into "Play the expac" just like themepark MMO's, why?

Actually jumping on mobs and them dying i find fun.. its the bosses that take 2hours to kill for no rewards thats not fun.

[soul.9651]

1 hour ago, borgs.6103 said:

I'd rather have mobs evade attacks, give themselves Protection and Resolution, and apply Immobilize and Weakness to players. 

Fun times will be had.

Now that would be fun, i would only add downed state too

[Cyninja.2954]

7 hours ago, Healix.5819 said:

Fun fact - GW2 wasn't supposed to be 100% horizontal, they originally planned on having a gear treadmill and increasing the level cap with expansions.

You might want to backup this claim with actual citations, because it seems very "I am going to make stuff up"ish. 

Coming from GW1, the developers clearly stated that a gear threadmill was not their plan for GW2. This was also why the initial addition of ascended caused such an uproar.

Going along those lines, the level cap of 80 was specifically chosen as to NOT increase further, finding a balance between the level cap of 20 in GW1, and giving enough room for "leveling".

Finally, the initial concept was to develop the game with live temporary content updates, which was what season 1 was all about. Once that actually failed, a switch to more permanent content (Season 2+) and occasional expansions was made. Expansions where most definitely NOT in the initial concept.

Now obviously much of this has changed over the years, some after very long stretches of trying to make it work (the entire Icebrood Saga fiasco pre EoD), yet still none of those factors suggest what you said to have been true.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[jason.1083]

4 hours ago, borgs.6103 said:

I'd rather have mobs evade attacks, give themselves Protection and Resolution, and apply Immobilize and Weakness to players. 

Fun times will be had.

We already have quite a few that do, maybe not all of these together, but at least one. And although it makes combat a bit more interesting sometimes it's annoying, especially when mobs leech boons from you(Hierarch for example), which makes them specialized against some boon heavy builds, because it usually means that whatever boon the player gets these mobs will get 100% uptime on. 

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I agree that much of the open world game (particularly core maps) is a bit too easy.

To me the obvious solution is to have difficulty settings which scales down your character's power.

I would be fine if they also nerfed dps on the top builds too.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mistwraithe.3106

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You might want to backup this claim with actual citations, because it seems very "I am going to make stuff up"ish. 

Coming from GW1, the developers clearly stated that a gear threadmill was not their plan for GW2. This was also why the initial addition of ascended caused such an uproar.

Going along those lines, the level cap of 80 was specifically chosen as to NOT increase further, finding a balance between the level cap of 20 in GW1, and giving enough room for "leveling".

Actually, the promises to not increase level cap and not introduce new gear tier came only with HoT. Earlier, Colin and Chris (Whiteside) were all about "definitely raising level cap" and "continuing with gear progression on shallow curve".

Can't find the direct quotes anymore, only references to them

and

See the "That is why there is no plan for new Rarity Tiers of loot but there are plans to enhance or gain items within the existing rarity design whose properties continue on a shallow power curve. ". Notice also, that they have mentioned in other places then that there was no plan for new Rarity Tier at the moment, that they were not going to introduce new rarity tiers every year, and that when they introduce new rarity tiers, they will bump up Legendaries to that tier. It was only at HoT announcement event that MO asserted new tiers and increased level cap will not happen in this game.

[Cyninja.2954]

50 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Actually, the promises to not increase level cap and not introduce new gear tier came only with HoT. Earlier, Colin and Chris (Whiteside) were all about "definitely raising level cap" and "continuing with gear progression on shallow curve".

Can't find the direct quotes anymore, only references to them

and

See the "That is why there is no plan for new Rarity Tiers of loot but there are plans to enhance or gain items within the existing rarity design whose properties continue on a shallow power curve. ". Notice also, that they have mentioned in other places then that there was no plan for new Rarity Tier at the moment, that they were not going to introduce new rarity tiers every year, and that when they introduce new rarity tiers, they will bump up Legendaries to that tier. It was only at HoT announcement event that MO asserted new tiers and increased level cap will not happen in this game.

While true, you do have to put some of those "ideas" into context. That interview was close to 1 year before GW2 even released, likely during phases where for example level scaling was supposed to go both ways (up and down, remember that?) and given during Gamescom of that year. It is not unlikely that attempts where made to appeal to traditional MMORPG players, which at that time where used to content via expansions only. Once the game came out, and closer to release, they had a very different vision in place (no scaling in both ways, living world model, no expansions) and this was clearly communicated back then. Saying "the game was supposed to have this and that" in this situation is like say claiming Overwatch was supposed to be an MMORPG, which it was, and these ideas somehow affect current game development. That game too was very clearly communicated as something else, and those early stages of design had little to do with the final product.

As to the gearing part, what they are getting at (again, 11 years back) was that within the rarity system there would be new stat combinations and yes, to some extent power creep. That is still a far way off from actual any "gear threadmill". They even explicitly state:"We don't intend to have an item rarity gear treadmill" in that very same post. Going along these lines: this is a very corporate response. Ascended most definitely was not a concept they where toying with before the game launched. The entire implementation (which took over 1 year), communication on it and actual availability clearly indicates to a live reaction to player behavior and reward structure in place at release.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[maxwelgm.4315]

I somehow don't think OP has been soloing Mordrem from Maguuma with single dodges or farming PoF champion events by themselves. That kind of perception likely only arises from doing Core map completion and, core maps should be attenable to vanilla-only accounts which have no access to any elite spec - in other words, those maps are good as they are.

[Astralporing.1957]

25 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

While true, you do have to put some of those "ideas" into context. That interview was close to 1 year before GW2 even released, likely during phases where for example level scaling was supposed to go both ways (up and down, remember that?) and given during Gamescom of that year. It is not unlikely that attempts where made to appeal to traditional MMORPG players, which at that time where used to content via expansions only. Once the game came out, and closer to release, they had a very different vision in place (no scaling in both ways, living world model, no expansions) and this was clearly communicated back then. Saying "the game was supposed to have this and that" in this situation is like say claiming Overwatch was supposed to be an MMORPG, which it was, and these ideas somehow affect current game development. That game too was very clearly communicated as something else, and those early stages of design had little to do with the final product.

Yes, that first interview was before launch, but since that time Anet was asked more than once about level cap issue. The questions got even more intense after ascended introduction. And yet they clearly wanted to avoid answering it clearly up until that HoT announcement. At the beginning it was not so set in stone yet as some people believed, and likely decision has been made only as a consequence of the massive backlash that happened due to ascended - and only after a very long consideration.

25 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

As to the gearing part, what they are getting at (again, 11 years back) was that within the rarity system there would be new stat combinations and yes, to some extent power creep. That is still a far way off from actual any "gear threadmill". They even explicitly state:"We don't intend to have an item rarity gear treadmill" in that very same post. Going along these lines: this is a very corporate response. Ascended most definitely was not a concept they where toying with before the game launched. The entire implementation (which took over 1 year), communication on it and actual availability clearly indicates to a live reaction to player behavior and reward structure in place at release.

In that same AMA they were claiming ascended were designed around a no-grind policy, so you have to consider it in that context. We do know they were considering additional tiers of +stat infusions at that very time, for example (+5 stat ones are blue tier, greens were to be +11's). When they mentioned legendary being bumped to next tiers, they were talking about "when", not "if" as well. And no, they did not "explicitly state" they don;t intend to introduce gear tier treadmill. They said they had no plans for new gear tier. And in another response they clarified that they had no plans at that time. In even different response, they mentioned they don;t have plans to introduce new tier "next year" or "every year". Nowhere they actually said they will never do that - until HoT announcement, that is. I'm quite certain that, if community response to ascended introduction has been less negative than it was, both level cap increase and new gear tiers ideas would have been pursued.

[Ghertu.7096]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

there are plans to enhance or gain items within the existing rarity design whose properties continue on a shallow power curve

Isn't this exactly what we got? Like they added new gear prefixes that are stronger than vanilla gear of the same rarity? 

[The Boz.2038]

4 minutes ago, Ghertu.7096 said:

Isn't this exactly what we got? Like they added new gear prefixes that are stronger than vanilla gear of the same rarity? 

4-stat gear is "stronger" in that it has more stats, sure, but only two of those sets have stronger offensive capabilities (numerically).

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Ghertu.7096 said:

Isn't this exactly what we got? Like they added new gear prefixes that are stronger than vanilla gear of the same rarity? 

Not quite. It was more than this.

Both you and @Cyninja.2954can look at another quote from that AMA i've just unearthed - notice, it's post-ascended reveal.

Look specifically at this part:

Quote

More generally, I hope we've been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That's why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PvE and PvP. In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn't allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we've always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.

And at the latter part where MO seems to think that introducing slow gear progression that offers only "shallow", 10-15% stat increases should not be considered to be a gear treadmill. And that's the context in which the previous mentions of no gear treadmills should also be looked at. Basically, he seemed to think that introducing new tiers would be fine as long as the increases on them would be small, and it would not happen too often (with both those factors being highly subjective). Or even more than fine - it would be important to have.

[Chyro.1462]

12 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Can you please buff the HP values of all mobs before IBS by at least 50%?

If I play Vindicator, I jump on mobs and they die to my jump. That isn't fun, if I wanted to play a mobile auto-battler I'd turn my phone on and do it.

For a game that prides itself on "no gear progression" and "no power progression", the amount of power creep is absurd and invalidates all the old content. This game is turning into "Play the expac" just like themepark MMO's, why?

 

So you wish for the mobs in older content to take longer to kill. It's already in your power to achieve this experience you want - simply by equipping sub-optimal gear (lets say soldiers, or even minstrels). Thus you can go to old content and experience the fights taking longer. You can also just leave some gear slots empty if you want mobs to hit harder. Or run a sub-optimal build that doesn't do max dps for your class. Nobody is forcing you to do high damage ^^

Edited July 11, 2023 by Chyro.1462

[Fueki.4753]

It'd be far better to just reduce the powercreep that came with expansions.

There's no need to bloat the numbers in PvE even further.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Now obviously much of this has changed over the years, some after very long stretches of trying to make it work (the entire Icebrood Saga fiasco pre EoD)

Well people liked the first half of the Sage , but for the rest Covid happened .

Hopefully they should spent more resouces in pre-expansions  OW content  , if people didn't like them the previous 😛

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Roadkizzle.2157]

I only started playing GW2 in 2022. The Health Pools do NOT need to be buffed up across the board.

My main is a Virtuoso. I just now have figured out how to get it up to 12k damage in perfect situations. Normally it's only 6k or so.

It was already almost impossible to kill enemies once I moved into the Expansion content. And it's still very slow very often. It already gets really difficult when fighting groups of just basic Expansion over world monsters.

Last time I tried going into a base game dungeon solo I still wasn't even able to kill a single enemy due to their high HP.

If you're having the problem then what they need to do is reduce the multiplicative boosting of damage that goes on. Bring the high end damage down closer to the level of the average player.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

13 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Can you please buff the HP values of all mobs before IBS by at least 50%?

If I play Vindicator, I jump on mobs and they die to my jump. That isn't fun, if I wanted to play a mobile auto-battler I'd turn my phone on and do it.

For a game that prides itself on "no gear progression" and "no power progression", the amount of power creep is absurd and invalidates all the old content. This game is turning into "Play the expac" just like themepark MMO's, why?

I absolutely agree on the sentiment, just not the method.
Mobs need hp buffing, that is true. I feel this applies to any regular mobs pre PoF, and maybe some veterans. Elites and above are good.

That being said however, there is quite the dps difference between top dogs and bottom dwellers such as core necro.
Happily boosting mob hp will make the life for the latter insufferable.

I think first a-net needs to reign in the damage of top dogs via selective nerfs, and once that's brought in line, go for mob buffing.

Edited July 11, 2023 by ZeftheWicked.3076