Terrible combat design has led to WvW being gate kept more than instanced PvE

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

9 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

You log in and 50vs50 by yourself? Amazing.

I log in and hop on whatever open tag there is that’s fighting. So yeah… have yet to be kicked from the zergs for playing whatever class/build I happen to be on that day

[blp.3489]

It's just a casual hypothesis but I suspect that trying to "balance" classes for all of open world, raids, strikes, fractals, sPvP and WvW is inherently problematic.  Most importantly, the degree of group build synergy that you want in a ten person raid or strike is different than what you want in WvW.  I am not advocating for it but at the extreme if there were absolutely no boon type interaction between team players then battles at all scales would be quite different and my guess is that numbers would matter less relative to individual player ability.  My guess is that individual development would improve more rapidly relative to the current setup and there would still be huge potential for coordinated play without needing specific group compositions.  I would argue that it would be more challenging and require more skill to optimize fighting than the "have ten firebrands" approach.

Looking at the number of open world players versus WvW players one has to conclude that the people who want to play with composition based fight guild type squads are a relatively small group.  A majority of people want to be a hero in their fantasy play rather than a cog in a machine.  Group work is valued and is a big draw for raids, and we see the relative popularity of those.  Importantly, the number of players who want to, have the time, and are capable of building up and effectively leading a good fight guild are a vanishingly small resource as well.

In any case, Anet is going in the direction of more importance on team composition rather than less, so this is all a what if conjecture, but that's my take on how numbers could matter less.

Edited July 23, 2023 by blp.3489

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 7/22/2023 at 3:12 AM, neven.3785 said:

-Limit WvW squads to 25.  This wont stop blobbing, but it waters down the boon application from guilds running larger.  The spill over boons will stay within their squad, and not help their smaller team as much.  Also putting some of your players in a second squad will create internal drama, which helps put downward pressure on guild sizes.

There is no such thing as "spill over boons." Boon application doesn't work that way. 

Healing however does "spill over" because when a player is at full health, the effect will skip that player and wont apply until it does hit someone that is not at full health.

Boons will always apply, no matter what their status is, to the player in the subgroup. The only time when they would not apply to the subgroup, is when members of that subgroup are out of range of the spell...and it will then obey priority within the squad...if nobody in the squad is in range, then it will obey priority of anyone. 

[Kozumi.5816]

52 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

there is an easy solution to this... either your squad comps up or you wipe. in no game does an uncoordinated group win over a coordinated one, it just doesn't happen. so why do you want or even think thats possible here? its not, so stop blaming the game and start blaming yourself cuz you can actually control what you do and change an outcome based on that

Most games are 5v5, not 50vs50

50 players playing perfect classes in a perfect comp is far too high of a requirement to play a casual pvp mode.

[vares.8457]

17 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

50 players playing perfect classes in a perfect comp is far too high of a requirement to play a casual pvp mode.

It’s not. I just played 2 hours in a 50 man squad in a near perfect comb and the two other servers did the same. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

51 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Most games are 5v5, not 50vs50

50 players playing perfect classes in a perfect comp is far too high of a requirement to play a casual pvp mode.

thats just not true, most of the time when you're outnumbered its by twice as many numbers or less. for the record, you don't need a fb in your party or even a guard. all guards can give aoe stab, and 3 other classes can give aoe stab now: soulbeast, rev (jalis road , herald jalis f2, ventari elite altho small radius), and mes mantra. bonus is war banner altho smaller radius and cast time makes it a bit unreliable, plus scrapper gyro with same small radius problem. so 2 of these plus 2 support classes will get ppl thru a push no problem, you don't need a perfect comp, you need pugs who aren't lazy/ selfish. you can play casually if you want, but since others can choose not to that means this isn't a casual mode, you're making the choice to play casually and when enough pugs do this and they wipe its their fault most of the time. sure it is a numbers problem/ comp problem a lot of times, but to claim thats whats wrong all the time is wrong and anyone with any experience in wvw will tell you the same thing unless they're rabid clouders or pugs who hate it when ppl work together

Edited July 23, 2023 by Stand The Wall.6987

[joneirikb.7506]

Reading through this thread, the only thing that stood out to me was that it sounds like a lot of people would like EotM better.

[Cael.3960]

In NA there are only a handful of guilds big enough and active enough to have a full 50 comp of pure guildies per timezone. The overwhelming majority of the time tags either run closed and invisible to maintain small squad mobility or they run open to grab whomever they can who's on a map. 

Most squads who engage in (and actively seek out) fights may prioritize meta classes/builds but if the tag is open they'll usually take anyone to get to the cap. Numbers trump class/build/skill in almost all situations so it's advantageous to have 50 even if not everyone is comped or playing a meta build. PPT guilds need numbers even more to sustain themselves through an overabundance of siege so their tags are almost always open. 

As for the 'meta' of the gameplay itself... typically theorycrafters will build their comp not around a particular class but a particular set of skills. If Spectre had access to Sanctuary they'd be a 'meta' class. If Mantra of Concentration pulsed aegis and 5 stacks of stability to 5 party members every second for 5 seconds you'd see twice as many mesmers in every comp. WvW min-maxes the same way PvE raiders do; most effect for least effort. If anything, creating a muddy gameplay where nothing excels would be ideal because at that point you could take anything instead of being strongly encouraged to favor a particular class/build for the overperforming skills it provides. The goal of theorycrafters is to sniff out those outliers and create short-term excellence before the balance team closes that window. The meta becomes unhealthy when these outliers persist long enough to create an abusive environment where no other successful strategy is viable. 

[Bristingr.5034]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:21 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Blame the "fight" guilds.

EOTM Arena is always open for these "fight" guilds. Strange how they NEVER seem to go there.

[Cuks.8241]

8 hours ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

 How about making sure instructions are clear for when you move, for when you bomb, for where you bomb. What about the importance of those players following those instruction precisely and quickly?

They are all part of the organisation of a good group. But they are rendered relatively irrelevant by the main thing, which is getting the composition set up. Sure, the composition should be part of the organising process. But as it stands, it's just TOO important.

That's the point I was making.

I think you never played in a guild group. Group composition is very important, its basically a prerequisite. But thats just the start. 

We spend hours and hours training positioning and engages for that one or 2 raid nights. We can easily roll or at least be on par with most guild groups but there are a few guilds out there that just make us roll over and die. The sad thing is those guilds log on rarely if they are even still alive. Its understandable, 10 y old game and almost no wvw dev. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

And that's my point; the meta is SO important, the skill of the players is less important. The skill of the commander is less important. You are so focused on the meta, you can't conceive of any level of organisation that doesn't involve the meta. How about making sure instructions are clear for when you move, for when you bomb, for where you bomb. What about the importance of those players following those instruction precisely and quickly?

They even said it in their second paragraph!

21 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

A Maguuma EBG cloud doesn't play meta compositions and they will tend to display far more organization than other organized groups.  There's a collective choice of strategy being made. 

Think they are not the one overly focused on the meta; you are. You are so closed off to other possibilities because you don't know how builds work at all.  There is more to builds than just meta and then complete trash.

Also what's the point of running builds that are proven not to work anyways? Would the game be less fun if everyone didn't get instantly run over? You don't need to copy Metabattle verbatim for that either.

Yes, build diversity is pretty bad. But protesting it by abstaining and then essentially griefing your own side is not an effective form of protest.

I think it is much more arrogant to immediately refuse to run meta builds, which were devised by dedicated members of the community through experience and testing, and then think that whatever homebrewed stuff one comes up with themselves to be inherently better. It is basically saying that you know more than anyone else which is a tall order.

If you through your own experience are aware of these meta builds and instead made from that derived builds that work better for your group, that is different. I respect people trying to reinvent the wheel. I do not respect people rejecting the wheel and then coming up with a square and then complaining people use wheels.

Edited July 23, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Think they are not the one overly focused on the meta; you are. You are so closed off to other possibilities because you don't know how builds work at all.  There is more to builds than just meta and then complete trash.

Also what's the point of running builds that are proven not to work anyways? Would the game be less fun if everyone didn't get instantly run over? You don't need to copy Metabattle verbatim for that either.

Yes, build diversity is pretty bad. But protesting it by abstaining and then essentially griefing your own side is not an effective form of protest.

I think it is much more arrogant to immediately refuse to run meta builds, which were devised by dedicated members of the community through experience and testing, and then think that whatever homebrewed stuff one comes up with themselves to be inherently better. It is basically saying that you know more than anyone else which is a tall order.

If you through your own experience are aware of these meta builds and instead made from that derived builds that work better for your group, that is different. I respect people trying to reinvent the wheel. I do not respect people rejecting the wheel and then coming up with a square and then complaining people use wheels.

Are you ok?  It looks like you completely misunderstood anything I wrote.  Nothing in your response has anything to do with the principle I've been highlighting of a group or team organizing or types and levels of organization involved as players seek to beat their competition.  Why are you even quoting me?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

50 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Are you ok?  It looks like you completely misunderstood anything I wrote.  Nothing in your response has anything to do with the principle I've been highlighting of a group or team organizing or types and levels of organization involved as players seek to beat their competition.  Why are you even quoting me?

Read the post a bit more carefully. I wasn't replying to you.

That was just to highlight something to the first poster, that you pointed out that some on Mag don't run meta builds. That is entirely the reason.

Edited July 24, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chaba.5410]

44 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Read the post a bit more carefully. I wasn't replying to you.

That was just to highlight something to the first poster, that you pointed out that some on Mag don't run meta builds. That is entirely the reason.

I see, thanks.  It was confusing why I was being quoted.

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I see, thanks.  It was confusing why I was being quoted.

Oh this is why I turn off notifications. It was annoying to be part of top of a quote chain and it pings you saying you were mentioned when the post no longer has anything to do with you because of tangents.

And of course emoji notifications lol.  😟

Edited July 24, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Aeolus.3615]

On 7/22/2023 at 5:31 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Yeah but if its one squad of 30 with another hidden squad of 10-15 on the other side of the map because they don't want to fight with the bigger squad or have clashing tags on the map, and the rest are roamers with a map queued, there's nothing much they can do vs a competent full comp guild squad of 50. Now you have a squad of 30 players feeding or running away all night, you can't even swap classes out. 

Combat is more about numbers today than it ever was before, you got more firebrands you win, you got more support you win, you got 50 comped you roll the entire map, and all the combat changes in the past few years have pushed it in that direction, all the opposing tools have been nerfed hard. Combat design was already changed by anet, much to the pleasure of the boon blob guilds, and disgust to everyone else.

If that was the case that IMO is a huge lack of tactics from the server with 2 teams rather a omni blob, even today omni blobs loose t3 smc to just a dozen players cause they are in a omni blob folowing a small group or get to focused on the ktrain.

2 squads on same map with even numbers can do so much troll to the lamers omni blob.

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

If that was the case that IMO is a huge lack of tactics from the server with 2 teams rather a omni blob, even today omni blobs loose t3 smc to just a dozen players cause they are in a omni blob folowing a small group or get to focused on the ktrain.

2 squads on same map with even numbers can do so much troll to the lamers omni blob.

To be fair the premise of this thread is about the desire to fight 50v50 with no tactics, and not being able to do so with randoms.

I understand this is kinda weird for some tactically minded players, but that is a common preference.

Edited July 24, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Aeolus.3615]

46 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

To be fair the premise of this thread is about the desire to fight 50v50 with no tactics, and not being able to do so with randoms.

I understand this is kinda weird for some tactically minded players, but that is a common preference.

Well in that case, the "balance " does not allow it, numbers + perma quickness and alacrity is king for no oposition, some boons are so strong that they mess the entire  balance and those are the ones that Anet keeps pushing.

It is interesting and sad at the same time that every issues resolves arround the boon mechanics and yet Anet continues to fail and even enforcing more of what makes more issues.

The pve players are killing this game :D

Edited July 24, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Well in that case, the "balance " does not allow it, numbers + perma quickness and alacrity is king for no oposition, some boons are so strong that they mess the entire  balance and those are the ones that Anet keeps pushing.

It is interesting and sad at the same time that every issues resolves arround the boon mechanics and yet Anet continues to fail and even enforcing more of what makes more issues.

The pve players are killing this game 😄

Now you got it.

Perma boon uptime was designed for pve. In vanilla, everyone was supposed to handle their own sustain and do damage, but in HoT and beyond they wanted higher levels of organization with comped groups because they wanted to attract the hardcore raiders. Eventually, bosses were designed around 100% boon uptime, so any comp without it was trash. So then they had to make sure every class could spam boons to stay relevant.

Of course this breaks down in wvw as the numbers increase.

It also didn't help that they kept power creeping the damage. In PvE, individual tankiness and sustain does not really  matter so focus is on making the classes do similar damage.  Some PvErs are known to throw a fit if they do 3% less damage than another class against a golem despite the fact your average player probably does 20% of max potential dps anyways. Yet these are the most vocal.

So if a class has too much damage and sustain, they do not care because sustain isn't run in pve anyways. So to the devs, Willbender is a underpowered spec because it is not as good in pure damage contribution as opposed to Firebrand. Thief running away is not a problem because you can't run away from a raid boss anyways. You can see where this nonsense will eventually lead.

Now of course once in a while they care about in pvp, but most of these changes do not get brought to WvW, and it does not change the primary design intention of the class.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chaba.5410]

42 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

In vanilla, everyone was supposed to handle their own sustain and do damage, but in HoT and beyond they wanted higher levels of organization with comped groups because they wanted to attract the hardcore raiders.

Maybe, but I don't think it's so easy to link the idea of higher levels of organization with the boon spam that became ubiquitous in HoT.

Consider that prior to HoT, a lot of the boon support and sustain was provided by combo fields, which require a lot more coordination and teamwork to pull off than just pressing skill buttons in HoT.  HoT seemed to make that boon and sustain support easier to access for players who aren't so hardcore.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

17 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Maybe, but I don't think it's so easy to link the idea of higher levels of organization with the boon spam that became ubiquitous in HoT.

Consider that prior to HoT, a lot of the boon support and sustain was provided by combo fields, which require a lot more coordination and teamwork to pull off than just pressing skill buttons in HoT.  HoT seemed to make that boon and sustain support easier to access for players who aren't so hardcore.

Ah yes blasting fields for swiftness.

I imagine more traditional MMO types wanted specified roles and builds  as what they thought was organization.  But yes, I think you could argue that the current slam buttons meta is not necessarily more skilled.

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 7/23/2023 at 6:05 AM, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

And that's my point; the meta is SO important, the skill of the players is less important.

Theres no such a thing a player that mastered skill AND is behind on meta, find this would be really amusing.

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:31 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

there's nothing much they can do vs a competent full comp guild squad of 50.

Divide to conquer, mono-blobs in really become slugsh and can't respond to everything.

Peopl cry about Magumma, but they are the only server that true know how to do a attrition war.

Edited July 25, 2023 by ugrakarma.9416

[RisingDawn.5796]

The WvW zerg meta has been fairly straightforward from the beginning, which is a good thing. Primary supports, secondary supports, damage dealers and boon strippers, with some changes to the meta and builds over time, after the bigger balance patches.

We had GWEN, during the time we had only the core classes, you always needed Guardians and warriors as frontliners and then eles and Necros, other classes in smaller guild raids had focus parties, which were mainly light armour classes like mesmer and thief, later on guilds starting rangers iirc too.

At least, there has been some diversity brought over the last 10 years, despite the fact some Elite specs release with some broken skills and traitlines, which gets nerfed years or months later.

Because some if these Elite specs bring  additional tools to the fights, like more boons, cc, heals, cleanses, damage, superspeed and so on.

You also don't necessarily need 50 players in the squad either, but it also depends on how organized the enemy groups are, and whether the fights, are around objectives, inside objectives or open field.

Sometimes a strong comp that synergizes well and coordination, is enough to win against some bigger groups, but obviously most times, less numbers means you usually have less healers, cleanses, stealth, boons, damage and boon strips, so you aren't going to win the majority of fights, especially with a comp that doesn't synergize well.

Also yes, the fact is recent balance changes, make the odds worse for smaller groups Vs bigger groups, unless the latter is just really bad, like squads in one party and random classes, not on voice.

 

[Widebody.5071]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:28 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

Yea and? Honestly so what? It's a team game and if all the players on one side decide to play that way and they lose, that's their own choice. No game dev should be balancing combat around anything other than equal numbers.

But that's exactly what someone is doing and it's being done with a vein of  toward certain classes. All it takes is a certain group of entitled, pampered crybabies to come on and complain about how their toon is is strong, too fast don't fit real life situations and most of all "not fun" and "boring". Within a few months things get changed it's been like this for since the beginning and anyone saying it's not is either in on it and benefitting from it. Not refering to the above poster but if it was like he wrote balancing for equal numbers the game would be better off. 

And if you buck the system they come after you in wvw with a vengence, makes you wonder exactly what kind of people are we dealing with. I have a pretty good idea, I can quaruuuntee they don't look like me. Just a bunch of bitterness, bile and pettiness. That's been my experience in the competitive mode of the game and dealing with the deplorables.

Not a blanket statement but if it fits so be it.