[Suggestion] Balancing Condition Damage

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

If I cant out heal conditions ticks with healing signet AND adrenaline healing then conditions dmg is op and needs nerf.

[Dawdler.8521]

@DeathPanel.8362 said:Conditions can be cleansed or resisted. A 20k damage hammer to your head can’t.You cant block it or dodge it?

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Simple solution, Rock paper scissors; simple implementation on Anets part

• The more toughness you have, the more condition damage you take and the less likely a cleanse will clear a condition
• The less toughness you have, the less condition damage you take
• So obviously, the more toughness you have, the less damage you take from physical attacks
• Flip side, the less toughness you have the more physical damage you take

So the moral of the story is, if you don't like taking condition damage, get out of your bunker gear, simple as that. There, rock paper scissors. Depending on what you run, you will be vulnerable to something, unless you completely balance out your build. But of course most players won't go for this because they want to be near invulvnerable to everything with 1 stat (toughness).

[Karnasis.6892]

@"Redponey.8352" said:I dont say nerf all damage condition , it's a way to play different from power damage, but i blame it not on this way to deal damage but on the fact that damage relies on 1 attributes instead of 2 at least or 3 as power build. Actually if u compare a Power , robutness vitality build vs a condi robutness vitality build xD PRV is pretty useless because of it relies on a certain amount of attributes (precision / ferocity) to be really efficient.

I'm blaming the fact that we have no counter or alternative versus condi tank raids or zergs because of permapressure/permapushing , the only alternative we got is to play the same thing and it's actually no fun at all.

You do realize that condi builds DO rely on more than one stat right? Toughness is key due to having to keep being in the thick of it to reapply their condis that keep getting cleansed/ignored. Vitality for the extra hp. Expertise is nice (not necessary though, especially with the amount of cleanses out there) and condition damage. That's 3 (or 4). Yes it's one for the actual damage, but there are other factors at play when playing a condi build. Also, you need to still know HOW to play your build and how to be effective regardless of how "easy" it is.

Most power builds need Power, Ferocity and Precision. That's three stats, it just so happens those are 3 key stats for Power Builds.

Regardless of build, a lot of this comes down to individual player skill and what you have fun with. I like condi builds, feel they are in a "okay" place right now. Power builds are too I think, but I don't play too many of those in WvW so others might know better than I. But I feel there is room for both in PvP/WvW. But also keep in mind there will never be a true balance between styles, but they are supposed to be different.

[KrHome.1920]

If we ignore the mechanics (e.g. blocks, evades, vitality, healing) that have an influence on the effectiveness of both direct damage and conditions then this is what is left:

offense:

• conditions: ramp up time
• power: instant damage

defense:

• conditions: countered by cleanses
• power: countered by toughness

... then it's quite obvious that condition damage builds need a way to survive the ramp up time to be as effective as a power build. And that's the reason why it is a 1-stat damage type.

Viper gear, while being effective in PvE, combines the drawbacks of both damage types for PvP: mediocre power damage that increases killing times and no sustain stats to survive the condi ramp up. Therefor no one uses it outside of PvE.

If you feel that a condi build is too strong, you don't rework the mechanics unless you like wasting your time and creating new problems. You better tweak your existing mechanics, for example increase the ramp up time or nerf the damage peaks (e.g. a skill deals only 2 instead of 4 bleeds).

[Dawdler.8521]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Simple solution, Rock paper scissors; simple implementation on Anets part

• The more toughness you have, the more condition damage you take and the less likely a cleanse will clear a condition
• The less toughness you have, the less condition damage you take
• So obviously, the more toughness you have, the less damage you take from physical attacks
• Flip side, the less toughness you have the more physical damage you take

So the moral of the story is, if you don't like taking condition damage, get out of your bunker gear, simple as that. There, rock paper scissors. Depending on what you run, you will be vulnerable to something, unless you completely balance out your build. But of course most players won't go for this because they want to be near invulvnerable to everything with 1 stat (toughness).You seem to forget that vitality exist. You know, the buffer against both condi and power damage? What most dps builds choose as their 1 defensive stat in sets like marauders?

As opposed to toughness that mitigate exactly zero condition damage.

[babazhook.6805]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DeathPanel.8362 said:Conditions can be cleansed or resisted. A 20k damage hammer to your head can’t.You cant block it or dodge it?

You can block and dodge condition attacks as well. Mudse is talking about what happens when a given attack connects. If it condition it can still be cleansed before it does its damage. If it power It can not. You take the damage. Condition cleanses exist across all classes. They can mitigate more added damage then things like protection or toughness combined through proper use of cleanses. If some stack ticks for 4 seconds and you cleansed at 1 you just mitigated 75 percent of its damage.

The main reason people have issues with Condition damage is not because it OP (there are only two real condition builds out there in any great number) but because those same people really do not want to trait cleanses as it displaces a skill they would rather use to maximize damage out.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Hey OP, last year's meta balance called to say it missed you.

Really, outside of Condi Mirages (which I usually eat now) everything is power now. My build went power, Scourges are power, Ele's are power, Engie's are power.

Power power everywhere and not a Bleed to drink.

[bq pd.2148]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Hey OP, last year's meta balance called to say it missed you.OP did not necro the thread

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Hey OP, last year's meta balance called to say it missed you.OP did not necro the thread

That's why it called. His thread missed him.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DeathPanel.8362 said:Conditions can be cleansed or resisted. A 20k damage hammer to your head can’t.You cant block it or dodge it?

You can block and dodge condition attacks as well. Mudse is talking about what happens when a given attack connects. If it condition it can still be cleansed before it does its damage. If it power It can not. You take the damage. Condition cleanses exist across all classes. They can mitigate more added damage then things like protection or toughness combined through proper use of cleanses. If some stack ticks for 4 seconds and you cleansed at 1 you just mitigated 75 percent of its damage.

The main reason people have issues with Condition damage is not because it OP (there are only two real condition builds out there in any great number) but because those same people really do not want to trait cleanses as it displaces a skill they would rather use to maximize damage out.

Use few cleanses in your build and learn to work with itYou dont have to win fightsBut a sudden growth in cleanses makes it more viable to fight against

[DeathPanel.8362]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DeathPanel.8362 said:Conditions can be cleansed or resisted. A 20k damage hammer to your head can’t.You cant block it or dodge it?

By that logic you can also block or dodge any condition causing attack too.Condition dmg is over time and can be cleansed before it does even a good fraction of its overall damage. Direct damage is front loaded and can’t be stopped.

[babazhook.6805]

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DeathPanel.8362 said:Conditions can be cleansed or resisted. A 20k damage hammer to your head can’t.You cant block it or dodge it?

You can block and dodge condition attacks as well. Mudse is talking about what happens when a given attack connects. If it condition it can still be cleansed before it does its damage. If it power It can not. You take the damage. Condition cleanses exist across all classes. They can mitigate more added damage then things like protection or toughness combined through proper use of cleanses. If some stack ticks for 4 seconds and you cleansed at 1 you just mitigated 75 percent of its damage.

The main reason people have issues with Condition damage is not because it OP (there are only two real condition builds out there in any great number) but because those same people really do not want to trait cleanses as it displaces a skill they would rather use to maximize damage out.

Use few cleanses in your build and learn to work with itYou dont have to win fightsBut a sudden growth in cleanses makes it more viable to fight against

You can win fights without loading up on condition cleanses. The point is there are ample cleanses available to all classes to deal with condition builds. The vast majority of builds are power and the vast majority of people LOSE fights to power builds. The complaints about Condition builds tend to be little more than confirmation bias where a person who does not like that style of play claims it OP because they do not like that style of play and would rather not have to adapt to play against it.

[coro.3176]

Just from personal experience, I know that there is WAAAY too much cleanse at the moment because I survive just fine with the following:

• 2 conditions cleansed per 20s from Healing Turret
• chill/cripple/immob cleansed with Rocket Boots on a ~16-20s cooldown

Those are the ONLY cleanses I have. I mitigate the rest of condi by either dodging, blocking, or interrupting the incoming attacks. .. or I take the damage, just like I would with power.

Honestly, a fully ticked condi burst is practically on-par with power damage these days, or even worse. Plus it takes longer and it can be cleansed.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Redponey.8352 said:Hi,I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with

protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention(sorry for my english)

Disagree OP, play both power and condi builds and right now they feel pretty balanced to each other. Wouldn't be looking for changes and there are other balancing issues would prefer the devs to be working on class by class.

[coro.3176]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Redponey.8352 said:Hi,I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with

protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention(sorry for my english)

Disagree OP, play both power and condi builds and right now they feel pretty balanced to each other. Wouldn't be looking for changes and there are other balancing issues would prefer the devs to be working on class by class.

Maybe for certain builds with low cleanse, but I think there are some clear and common situations where condi is in dire (heh) need of help.

• zerg fights - If you've ever tried to make condi damage stick in a zerg fight, you'll know what I mean. With a power class, you can toss 10k aoe bombs at the enemy and they'll land. They might be reduced somewhat due to protection, but they'll still hit for ~7k or so. This is a good payoff for the effort and risk. On condi, however, you might land a potentially 10k (over 15s) of burn, but that will be cleansed within a second, and you'll get less than 1k damage, and it's always cleansed within a second. Due to how conditions stack, how they are cleansed, and the fact that support builds are around to help, you'll never stick a condi for more than a few seconds in a large fight.
• roaming vs classes with high cleanse - Even in a 1v1, this can be somewhat oppressive. Consider fighting a soulbeast running Bear Stance and Wilderness Knowledge. They threaten you with 20k+ burst combos and you must dodge them. However, they can cleanse all your conditions nearly as often as you can apply them. They don't even have to dodge or block your attacks (though, they still have that option). They can just let them land and cleanse.
• Even classes that used to be balanced by high dps, but also high condi vulnerability just aren't as vulnerable any more. Eg. Revenant. Rev used to fold hard to condi pressure, but at the same time, it could also burst the opponent dead in 1 combo before they could apply that condi. These days, Rev actually has a decent amount of cleanse thanks to sigil of cleansing + other clense options, but hasn't lost its huge burst.

[JTGuevara.9018]

Honestly, condition damage is goofy in this game. The way they're applied in this game is by ticks. With high condition damage, it ticks so fast it's almost like a power burst. As someone said above, a fully ticked condi build is on par with power builds. I would be open to change how condition work based on how gw1 had it, by degeneration. In gw1, the more conditions you applied, the more degeneration.

[wanya.1697]

the main problem with condis isthey deal dmg while you do nothingunlike direct dmgif your hits dont connect every "swing of the sword" you deal no dmgand some classes have a huge amount of condi cleanse optionswhile other have nowhere near enough to have a chance against a condi buildeven before the fight started the outcome is clearI rly would like anet to get rid of dmging condis in competetiv gameplay and just let the soft cc's stayI bet that would also help very much against skilllag in bigger fights and balancing should be much easier too

[coro.3176]

@"wanya.1697" said:the main problem with condis isthey deal dmg while you do nothingunlike direct dmgif your hits dont connect every "swing of the sword" you deal no dmgand some classes have a huge amount of condi cleanse optionswhile other have nowhere near enough to have a chance against a condi buildeven before the fight startet the outcome is clearI rly would like anet to get rid of dmging condis in competetiv gameplay and just let the soft cc's stayI bet that would also help very much against skilllag in bigger fights and balancing should be much easier too

I'm not sure you realize how condition damage works..

You need to connect with a skill in order to do any damage, power or condi. You say "they deal dmg while you do nothing", but that's because they ALREADY HIT YOU with a high damage skill. You just didn't realize it.

Every class has enough cleanse. Even if they don't have any, they can still run sigil of cleansing. How do I know this? I know because I run a build with less cleanse than that, and can survive (and win) vs condi just fine.

[Dawdler.8521]

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Honestly, condition damage is goofy in this game. The way they're applied in this game is by ticks. With high condition damage, it ticks so fast it's almost like a power burst. As someone said above, a fully ticked condi build is on par with power builds. I would be open to change how condition work based on how gw1 had it, by degeneration. In gw1, the more conditions you applied, the more degeneration.So uh... you're saying it is balanced against power?

[bq pd.2148]

@coro.3176 said:

@"wanya.1697" said:the main problem with condis isthey deal dmg while you do nothingunlike direct dmgif your hits dont connect every "swing of the sword" you deal no dmgand some classes have a huge amount of condi cleanse optionswhile other have nowhere near enough to have a chance against a condi buildeven before the fight startet the outcome is clearI rly would like anet to get rid of dmging condis in competetiv gameplay and just let the soft cc's stayI bet that would also help very much against skilllag in bigger fights and balancing should be much easier too

I'm not sure you realize how condition damage works..

You need to connect with a skill in order to do any damage, power or condi. You say "they deal dmg while you do nothing", but that's because

they ALREADY HIT YOU with a high damage skill. You just didn't realize it

.

Every class has enough cleanse. Even if they don't have any, they can still run sigil of cleansing. How do I know this? I know because I run a build with less cleanse than that, and can survive (and win) vs condi just fine.

maybe we got to make the severance of the applied condis better visible, for example similar to barriers.

the only problem might be that conditions dont apply the tick based on the condi damage when applied but when it ticks, therefor it would switch with every mighstack... tho i guess that can be changed aswell.

[wanya.1697]

@coro.3176 said:

@"wanya.1697" said:the main problem with condis isthey deal dmg while you do nothingunlike direct dmgif your hits dont connect every "swing of the sword" you deal no dmgand some classes have a huge amount of condi cleanse optionswhile other have nowhere near enough to have a chance against a condi buildeven before the fight startet the outcome is clearI rly would like anet to get rid of dmging condis in competetiv gameplay and just let the soft cc's stayI bet that would also help very much against skilllag in bigger fights and balancing should be much easier too

I'm not sure you realize how condition damage works..

You need to connect with a skill in order to do any damage, power or condi. You say "they deal dmg while you do nothing", but that's because they ALREADY HIT YOU with a high damage skill. You just didn't realize it.

Every class has enough cleanse. Even if they don't have any, they can still run sigil of cleansing. How do I know this? I know because I run a build with less cleanse than that, and can survive (and win) vs condi just fine.

you did not get what I meantcondis deal dmg every tick but you dont need to hit your target every tick to deal dmg unlike direct dmghope that makes it more clear to understand

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Redponey.8352 said:Hi,I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with

protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention(sorry for my english)

Disagree OP, play both power and condi builds and right now they feel pretty balanced to each other. Wouldn't be looking for changes and there are other balancing issues would prefer the devs to be working on class by class.

Agree that condi builds are pretty balanced now for most classes.Even for classes with low covering condis like Guardians.The changes to Cleansing Sigil and Anti-toxin runes plus a few other synergies to the classes has made it easier to handle condi foes.There is now a nice balance between condi application rate and condi cleanses available to most classes.

Disagree though that power is balanced.The reason why Condi builds are not very popular now is because Power is currently overtuned.Condi application has been balanced by increased ease of access to condi clears.However, Power damage has increased but not been mitigated by toughness which still remained at its old values.Toughness/Armor needs to have its damage reduction values increased.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Redponey.8352 said:Hi,I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with

protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention(sorry for my english)

Disagree OP, play both power and condi builds and right now they feel pretty balanced to each other. Wouldn't be looking for changes and there are other balancing issues would prefer the devs to be working on class by class.

Agree that condi builds are pretty balanced now for most classes.Even for classes with low covering condis like Guardians.The changes to Cleansing Sigil and Anti-toxin runes plus a few other synergies to the classes has made it easier to handle condi foes.There is now a nice balance between condi application rate and condi cleanses available to most classes.

Disagree though that power is balanced.The reason why Condi builds are not very popular now is because Power is currently overtuned.Condi application has been balanced by increased ease of access to condi clears.However, Power damage has increased but not been mitigated by toughness which still remained at its old values.Toughness/Armor needs to have its damage reduction values increased.

No. Things like Sic'em need nerfing. Several power skills need de-tuning (Drop the Hammer for instance). Granted there are others that need buffs (warrior rifle AA...). Full Counter was a culprit, and it got OVER nerfed. Arc Divider right after the rework was too powerful, and while it was nerfed, they didn't over nerf it like FC.

There is no need to make bunkers worse to deal with just because there are overtuned power traits, weapons, and utilities.

[coro.3176]

@wanya.1697 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@wanya.1697 said:the main problem with condis isthey deal dmg while you do nothingunlike direct dmgif your hits dont connect every "swing of the sword" you deal no dmgand some classes have a huge amount of condi cleanse optionswhile other have nowhere near enough to have a chance against a condi buildeven before the fight startet the outcome is clearI rly would like anet to get rid of dmging condis in competetiv gameplay and just let the soft cc's stayI bet that would also help very much against skilllag in bigger fights and balancing should be much easier too

I'm not sure you realize how condition damage works..

You need to connect with a skill in order to do any damage, power or condi. You say "they deal dmg while you do nothing", but that's because they ALREADY HIT YOU with a high damage skill. You just didn't realize it.

Every class has enough cleanse. Even if they don't have any, they can still run sigil of cleansing. How do I know this? I know because I run a build with less cleanse than that, and can survive (and win) vs condi just fine.

you did not get what I meantcondis deal dmg every tick but you dont need to hit your target every tick to deal dmg unlike direct dmghope that makes it more clear to understand

..but you hit them once initially to deal the damage.

It's like this. You have 2 skills:

• Sword Swing: Melee range, 1/2s cast time, Deals 5000 damage
• Torch Burn: Melee range, 1/2s cast time, Deals 1000 damage per second for 5 seconds

They both do the same amount of damage. They both have the same cast time and range.

Yes, conditions deal damage every tick and you don't need to hit your opponent each tick. You do need to hit them once though. That's the same as power. It's just that power deals the damage up front, and condi deals the damage over time.

get it?