Flag DPS-Meter user in the game

[Feanor.2358]

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:

Fair enough. I also agree it's better to cut your losses early. It's just upsetting to know that people use this "proof" as a justification for poor sportsmanship; as I said, I do not take issue with the tool, I take issue with the people using that tool for less than savory purposes. Also, I probably wasn't clear about this point and feel as though I

should

clarify it: "I am very

much

against flagging people with a DPS meter, that is still in someway ostracizing against basic rights. In the same breath, though, I'm also against people that misuse tools and make it an issue for those that are using it for the "right" reasons, like you.

Would you rather have these people use arbitrary "proof" instead? AP count? Killproof count, lack of specific titles, being the "wrong" class?DPS meters mitigate all this, to an extent. Yes, people will still ask about kps, titles and specific classes and they will still eye you suspiciously if you have very low AP. But they will be

MUCH

more inclined to give you a chance. Because they have the means to measure your performance objectively. The existence of these tools is very beneficial for the community. Not just because of the personal improvement they aid.

No, I would rather people

not

be stupid and use seniority and/or titles as a benchmark for success. Or anything for that matter. In others words, in case I wasn't clear, I take issue with people that abuse

any

tool, regardless of intent.

And you think you can project your wishes and/or beliefs onto the whole community? That's a naive utopia.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:In other words, you'd not be pissed off if you created a group and bunch of elite people with a DPS meter decides you aren't cutting it, despite you doing well, and kick you just because they don't like you? Okay, because that's legit and completely honest.

I pug

everything

in game, apart from raids (I don't have the time commitment for it), I can't even remember the last time I was kicked from a T4 fractal group. It may not have even been in T4 I was kicked.That attitude, is not caused by the DPS meter. The meter creates

proof

to base such actions on. If players would rather be a kitten, rather than say, 'can you (underperformer) do this this and this and maybe you'll do a bit better' and TRY, I don't want to be in that group, so I wouldn't mind the kick.

Fair enough. I also agree it's better to cut your losses early. It's just upsetting to know that people use this "proof" as a justification for poor sportsmanship; as I said, I do not take issue with the tool, I take issue with the people using that tool for less than savory purposes. Also, I probably wasn't clear about this point and feel as though I

should

clarify it: "I am very

much

against flagging people with a DPS meter, that is still in someway ostracizing against basic rights. In the same breath, though, I'm also against people that misuse tools and make it an issue for those that are using it for the "right" reasons, like you.

Proof low dps is not proof if person is underperforming its the responsebility of rest of group to help ore carry person through

Why? Most mechanics are done by Druids, Chronos and BS. A DPS Class only has to deal with random mechanics such as Poison on Matthias. If you play a DPS Class and you don't have to do any mechanic you better be damn good at the one thing the group is asking you to do. DPS. If you can't follow a simple rotation, which you can literally find written on the internet you are underperforming. Low DPS ist definitely a sign that one person is underperforming and its not my responsibility to carry a person through content. I value my time more than the time of stranger on the internet.

[Tsakhi.8124]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

Fair enough. I also agree it's better to cut your losses early. It's just upsetting to know that people use this "proof" as a justification for poor sportsmanship; as I said, I do not take issue with the tool, I take issue with the people using that tool for less than savory purposes. Also, I probably wasn't clear about this point and feel as though I

should

clarify it: "I am very

much

against flagging people with a DPS meter, that is still in someway ostracizing against basic rights. In the same breath, though, I'm also against people that misuse tools and make it an issue for those that are using it for the "right" reasons, like you.

Would you rather have these people use arbitrary "proof" instead? AP count? Killproof count, lack of specific titles, being the "wrong" class?DPS meters mitigate all this, to an extent. Yes, people will still ask about kps, titles and specific classes and they will still eye you suspiciously if you have very low AP. But they will be

MUCH

more inclined to give you a chance. Because they have the means to measure your performance objectively. The existence of these tools is very beneficial for the community. Not just because of the personal improvement they aid.

No, I would rather people

not

be stupid and use seniority and/or titles as a benchmark for success. Or anything for that matter. In others words, in case I wasn't clear, I take issue with people that abuse

any

tool, regardless of intent.

And you think you can project your wishes and/or beliefs onto the whole community? That's a naive utopia.

Wasn't my intent to project anything ; I was stating my opinion as everyone has. I admit, though, I'm socially inept, not an excuse, just a fact.

[yann.1946]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:In other words, you'd not be pissed off if you created a group and bunch of elite people with a DPS meter decides you aren't cutting it, despite you doing well, and kick you just because they don't like you? Okay, because that's legit and completely honest.

I pug

everything

in game, apart from raids (I don't have the time commitment for it), I can't even remember the last time I was kicked from a T4 fractal group. It may not have even been in T4 I was kicked.That attitude, is not caused by the DPS meter. The meter creates

proof

to base such actions on. If players would rather be a kitten, rather than say, 'can you (underperformer) do this this and this and maybe you'll do a bit better' and TRY, I don't want to be in that group, so I wouldn't mind the kick.

Fair enough. I also agree it's better to cut your losses early. It's just upsetting to know that people use this "proof" as a justification for poor sportsmanship; as I said, I do not take issue with the tool, I take issue with the people using that tool for less than savory purposes. Also, I probably wasn't clear about this point and feel as though I

should

clarify it: "I am very

much

against flagging people with a DPS meter, that is still in someway ostracizing against basic rights. In the same breath, though, I'm also against people that misuse tools and make it an issue for those that are using it for the "right" reasons, like you.

Proof low dps is not proof if person is underperforming its the responsebility of rest of group to help ore carry person through

Why would the enjoyement of 1 trancedent the enjoyement of multiple people?People helping eachother is a great thing buy only as long as they enjoy doing so.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

Fair enough. I also agree it's better to cut your losses early. It's just upsetting to know that people use this "proof" as a justification for poor sportsmanship; as I said, I do not take issue with the tool, I take issue with the people using that tool for less than savory purposes. Also, I probably wasn't clear about this point and feel as though I

should

clarify it: "I am very

much

against flagging people with a DPS meter, that is still in someway ostracizing against basic rights. In the same breath, though, I'm also against people that misuse tools and make it an issue for those that are using it for the "right" reasons, like you.

Would you rather have these people use arbitrary "proof" instead? AP count? Killproof count, lack of specific titles, being the "wrong" class?DPS meters mitigate all this, to an extent. Yes, people will still ask about kps, titles and specific classes and they will still eye you suspiciously if you have very low AP. But they will be

MUCH

more inclined to give you a chance. Because they have the means to measure your performance objectively. The existence of these tools is very beneficial for the community. Not just because of the personal improvement they aid.

No, I would rather people

not

be stupid and use seniority and/or titles as a benchmark for success. Or anything for that matter. In others words, in case I wasn't clear, I take issue with people that abuse

any

tool, regardless of intent.

And you think you can project your wishes and/or beliefs onto the whole community? That's a naive utopia.

Wasn't my intent to project

anything

; I was stating my opinion as everyone has. I admit, though, I'm socially inept, not an excuse, just a fact.

It is my experience that people do not have opinions. Only facts they can't adequately prove. If you have a notion of what is good or what is better than the status quo, then it is a disservice not to act on those beliefs. If you believe a bus about to hit me, I want you to yell that fact at the top of your lungs.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@"Imperadordf.2687" said:Combat data is not private.

No, it's not

private

, but within the meanings of the new EU rules, it

is

what's called "personally identifiable" data. It is distributed to other players that

your

character did something. If DPS meters could only read the meter-user's data, many of the various problems attributed to them would not exist. (They would have less value, but not

zero

value.)

So the OP is wrong - it isn't about privacy - but citing the GDPR(1) rules

is

or at least

could be

relevant to the DPS meter debate.

(1) GDPR (General Data Protection Regulations) isn't about

privacy

as such. It is about how companies (etc.) make use of data that can be linked to a specific person. (That's essentially what "personally identifiable" means.) The rules are far stricter than past data protection rules, and the "blame targets" for that are large Internet companies, notably one whose name begins with G, another whose name begins with F, and a third whose name begins with T. (Obviously, not General Motors, Ford, and Toyota...)

A number on a screen that is tied to an anonymous character is not personal data as it does not identify the person.

That's just it, though. Is the character anonymous? For sure, the character doesn't have my name on it, but the name of my account is visible in-game and linked to the character. If you join a party with a character called "Cleopatra Aegyptus", you'll see that the associated account is "Steve The Cynic.3217", and that is personally identifiable.

No, you're right, a player cannot easily link that to ===> that human, but there is a link to that human, so it is "personally identifiable".

[Imperadordf.2687]

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@"Imperadordf.2687" said:Combat data is not private.

No, it's not

private

, but within the meanings of the new EU rules, it

is

what's called "personally identifiable" data. It is distributed to other players that

your

character did something. If DPS meters could only read the meter-user's data, many of the various problems attributed to them would not exist. (They would have less value, but not

zero

value.)

So the OP is wrong - it isn't about privacy - but citing the GDPR(1) rules

is

or at least

could be

relevant to the DPS meter debate.

(1) GDPR (General Data Protection Regulations) isn't about

privacy

as such. It is about how companies (etc.) make use of data that can be linked to a specific person. (That's essentially what "personally identifiable" means.) The rules are far stricter than past data protection rules, and the "blame targets" for that are large Internet companies, notably one whose name begins with G, another whose name begins with F, and a third whose name begins with T. (Obviously, not General Motors, Ford, and Toyota...)

A number on a screen that is tied to an anonymous character is not personal data as it does not identify the person.

That's just it, though.

Is

the character anonymous? For sure, the character doesn't have

my

name on it, but the name of

my

account is visible in-game and linked to the character. If you join a party with a character called "Cleopatra Aegyptus", you'll see that the associated account is "Steve The Cynic.3217", and

that

is personally identifiable.

No, you're right, a

player

cannot easily link that to ===> that human, but there

is

a link to that human, so it is "personally identifiable".

It's still anonymous and not personally identifiable though. A display name doesn't mean anything. If you are a toxic player, Steve The Cynic.3217 is a toxic player. Not Steve Blackwood who lives in New York.

[Umut.5471]

Well, since classes aren't balanced DPS-Wise, I think DPS meters just increase toxicity in PVE groups. "Play elementalist or mirage, because our precious DPS metersbenchmark that they are the meta."

[Ashen.2907]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Combat data is not private.

No, it's not

private

, but within the meanings of the new EU rules, it

is

what's called "personally identifiable" data. It is distributed to other players that

your

character did something. If DPS meters could only read the meter-user's data, many of the various problems attributed to them would not exist. (They would have less value, but not

zero

value.)

So the OP is wrong - it isn't about privacy - but citing the GDPR(1) rules

is

or at least

could be

relevant to the DPS meter debate.

(1) GDPR (General Data Protection Regulations) isn't about

privacy

as such. It is about how companies (etc.) make use of data that can be linked to a specific person. (That's essentially what "personally identifiable" means.) The rules are far stricter than past data protection rules, and the "blame targets" for that are large Internet companies, notably one whose name begins with G, another whose name begins with F, and a third whose name begins with T. (Obviously, not General Motors, Ford, and Toyota...)

A number on a screen that is tied to an anonymous character is not personal data as it does not identify the person.

That's just it, though.

Is

the character anonymous? For sure, the character doesn't have

my

name on it, but the name of

my

account is visible in-game and linked to the character. If you join a party with a character called "Cleopatra Aegyptus", you'll see that the associated account is "Steve The Cynic.3217", and

that

is personally identifiable.

No, you're right, a

player

cannot easily link that to ===> that human, but there

is

a link to that human, so it is "personally identifiable".

It's still anonymous and not personally identifiable though. A display name doesn't mean anything. If you are a toxic player, Steve The Cynic.3217 is a toxic player. Not Steve Blackwood who lives in New York.

This.

I work in an industry where PII is much more regulated than anything here and if the information does not identify an individual it is not PII. An account name does not identify you.

[windbliss.3158]

@Pimpology.6234 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@"altermaven.7385" said:There's a way to check your damage consistency that is built in game. While I don't mind the fact people want to benchmark their stuff. I

do

mind having it as a de-facto criteria for getting into high-tier stuff. Some games consider having the availability of everyone's DPS at their fingertips a bannable offense. Being kicked because you're sub-optimal, because you aren't measuring or sharing your damage output, because you're having a bad DPS day? Having meters as an 'available' option not part of the API is technically considered boundary-crossing, but regardless invites a large wave of unwanted toxicity.

And as for this "check" in the game? It's called a combat log. Sure it's not robust, but it's what you got. It may not measure your total output per second, but you can make rudimentary benches out of it.

To iterate: I'm not against measuring DPS, or having a means to measure it. I

am

, however, against having my details read by someone other than me. I personally do not use DPS meters, because by rights it is across that line that seperates "legit" from "suspicious".

They aren’t your details, all combat data is public data in gw2, and Toxicity hasn’t risen due to combat meters, since Toxicity was even more prevalent in the form of completely arbitrary reasons like AP or kick or full zerk or kick, and no Ranger and Necro or kick.

And they aren’t boundary crossing since the people that set the boundaries are Anet and they said as long as Combat Meters meet their compliance standards they are ok.

As a gw2 vet from launch, the Toxicity levels have most definetly gone waaay up post raids. To say that's not true is just insane. All one has to do to get a glimpse of what goes on in game is to just read all these hundreds of posts about it.

That's the point I was trying to make, unfortunately, and to make such the norm of PUG life has obliterated the checks and balances. And the causation of toxicity is more than just DPS meters. All I can say is that making a means to measure/show your DPS to others mandatory in order to "get in" will only worsen matters so much more, and adds to the heap of the elitism problem.

Then again, elitism is the scourge of MMOs in general. We just have it far worse. How do you put out a fire? You certainly can't ignore it.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

This is one of those things that bothers me about Anets stance on meters: it is counter-intuitive to how they act everywhere else.

Last time I brought up the notion of a community self-policing itself via social reinforcement, Gallie nearly threw a brick through my window. Demanding what right I have, exclaiming that I couldn't be more wrong, etc. Given her positions (if I"m not confusing her with another person I looked up once), that sort of authoritarian response is to be expected. But a DPS meter contradicts this. A meter is a tool used by the community almost exclusively to police behaviors that it deems unacceptable via social reinforcement.

I do need to stress the arbitrary nature. Most content in the game is based around knowing encounter mechanics. There's little to no mechanical discrimination between having an optimum rotation vs. a good rotation, or even a mildly serviceable one. This was designed because there are a lot of variables to how well a player does, from the way the class does damage to how that player is feeling that day. 9 classes, 27 elite specs, who knows how many gear prefixes, they all need to work within the realm of common sense design. With very rare exception, they do. Lets make no bones about it: the game is designed from the ground up to be inclusive to multiple playstyles.

This is a second part that is counter-intuitive. DPS meters do the exact opposite: the social pressure they exert is purposefully exclusive to individual tastes and playstyles. Anet was hesitant with meters on launch, and when they did throw one in the game they hid it away behind a commander tag and a static golem. Though the players know the "go zerk or go home" mantra well, it isn't something that the developers themselves have said. There's no inspect feature, either, which is something that elitists also have demanded for years. Hell, the personal story at launch was all about everyone uniting and working together. There is this consistent message of cooperation and acceptance throughout the game... except for the meters which throw it all out the window.

Part of me thinks that their policy on allowing ArcDPS isn't born of approval, but of necessity. That it is easier to deal with players complaining that DPS meters exist than it is to deal with players complaining that DPS meters don't exist. Industry standard and player expectations and all that.

[nia.4725]

@Dayra.7405 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Combat Meters just compile everything into a easier to read visual aid, nothing more nothing less.

You can see actions of people on the street, still it's a totally different thing to record them and especially to evaluate them to generate profiles of people.

Combat data is not private, a lot of people has already told you this. It doesn't violate your privacy, either. Everyone can see how well you are playing just by watching you play, there's no need to record anything in order to know if you're good or bad or if you deal good DPS or not. DPS meters just help showing that information and collect that information for improving purposes.

The only thing that people will see about you in an specific situation will be your DPS number though. Some other info that DPS meters collect, like the sequence of skills you used, are only shown when you upload the log file into a DPS parser like dps.report. That means that no one will see more than your DPS until they are out of the combat and have time to upload the thing. And when the thing is over it doesn't matter anymore.

Most people though, only use DPS meters to see their own number. That's what I do. When I play DPS classes, I turn on my arcDPS because I want to see if I'm doing well or not. I don't care about others DPS unless is so bad that the group isn't being able to kill the boss. No one will say anything about your DPS unless it's so bad that it causes problems to others.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Combat data is not private.

No, it's not

private

, but within the meanings of the new EU rules, it

is

what's called "personally identifiable" data. It is distributed to other players that

your

character did something. If DPS meters could only read the meter-user's data, many of the various problems attributed to them would not exist. (They would have less value, but not

zero

value.)

So the OP is wrong - it isn't about privacy - but citing the GDPR(1) rules

is

or at least

could be

relevant to the DPS meter debate.

(1) GDPR (General Data Protection Regulations) isn't about

privacy

as such. It is about how companies (etc.) make use of data that can be linked to a specific person. (That's essentially what "personally identifiable" means.) The rules are far stricter than past data protection rules, and the "blame targets" for that are large Internet companies, notably one whose name begins with G, another whose name begins with F, and a third whose name begins with T. (Obviously, not General Motors, Ford, and Toyota...)

A number on a screen that is tied to an anonymous character is not personal data as it does not identify the person.

That's just it, though.

Is

the character anonymous? For sure, the character doesn't have

my

name on it, but the name of

my

account is visible in-game and linked to the character. If you join a party with a character called "Cleopatra Aegyptus", you'll see that the associated account is "Steve The Cynic.3217", and

that

is personally identifiable.

No, you're right, a

player

cannot easily link that to ===> that human, but there

is

a link to that human, so it is "personally identifiable".

It's still anonymous and not personally identifiable though. A display name doesn't mean anything. If you are a toxic player, Steve The Cynic.3217 is a toxic player. Not Steve Blackwood who lives in New York.

It's not anonymous. It's pseudonymous. That is, "Steve The Cynic.3217" functions as a pseudonym, a sort of "nickname" with a high degree of uniqueness (only one GW2 account is called that). Unless I'm breaking the ToS by account-sharing, ALL characters active in-game with a visible account name of Steve The Cynic.3217 are mine. To be sure, the guy running the DPS meter cannot link it to me, but the same can be said of a random forum that has only my email address and not anything more specific, and that forum has a GDPR-linked set of obligations. (In cases of extreme judicial need, the legal authorities can lean on Arenanet to reveal the link between Steve The Cynic.3217 and a certain person who lives in northern France(1), thus revealing the "personally identifiable" nature of data linked to my account.)

(1) By a curious coincidence, I have lived in New York state, although not in the Big Apple itself.

[casualkenny.9817]

Imagine if such a function came into being today, and op goes in and finds that a lot of players are using meters, but the majority of them don't give a second glance at his normal dps. Will he feel neglected?

Like, seriously, what percentage of humans would care at all about your combat data if your dps value looks normal or sufficient for the particular content? What on earth made you think that normal humans would care about your combat behaviour? Of course there are abberants - just block them then.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Cyberman Mastermind.6012 said:

@"Imperadordf.2687" said:Why would you want to hide your DPS from other players other than if you're bad at the game? Either you're bad at the game (which is nothing to be ashamed of by the way) or you're new to the class.Quick guess? Bad experience with the "110% efficiency crowd" that exists in all games. Not everyone reacts with "Hm. You could do more damage if you tried this or that.".For some people, not being perfect (especially if it's someone else who isn't perfect) is something to be ashamed of.

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:And you'd be amazed how many times that happens, people literally doing less DPS than characters that aren't really trying to do damage.I think the main problem here is that people currently have no way (without 3rd party tools) to actually KNOW this.

There's the Golem on the Raid Training Area, you can go in alone and practice your rotations to see.

I thought the basic setup of GW2 was intended to make that a moot point (no trinity, pre-set skills). The (common?) use of DPS-Meters means it's not as trivial to make a functioning character as ANet claimed (which was AFAIK the whole reason for not allowing us to customize our skills).

No, here's the thing. The "No trinity" was, at least in my point of view, a misinterpretation of Arena Net's intentions. It was never "there will be no roles", but "any profession can fill a role", by building for it. Sure they failed to deliver it a bit by making pretty much everything but Berserker's stats almost useless for ~3 years. But, me, and a lot of players never saw it like this, that's why there have always been Necro, Warrior, and Guardian Tank builds since the beggining of the game, and why a lot of people tried stuff like ele support, or Engi support, none of which was really good because Arena Net failed on delivery a lot in that regard.With Elite Specializations they changed it almost 180º with Druid being clearly built for support, and Firebrand and Chronomancer being intensely support-oriented. Also Tempest and Scourge were built as support professions, with less success.That plus Raids and the prior changes to condi stacking made built variety surge up by magnitudes, and created the need for more specialized builds than the previous iterations of Group Content. The refactored Fractals, and especially with the introduction of the harder Nightmare Tower, Shattered Observatory and their Challenge modes also transported some of the role specialization from Raids into high tier fractals.

But DPS meters weren't really necessary, or sanctioned, prior to Raids. Due to the less forgiving nature of Raids, with timed encounters and no resurrections, this gave need to a lot more specialized and focused builds capable of maintaining a high output of DPS as to complete encounters within their allotted windows.And so Arena Net not only created the training Golem but also issued statements in regards to what was allowed for DPS meters to do.

I don't understand what you mean by "customize our skills"... You can customize your build as much in GW2 as in other games, the only difference in GW2 compared to lets, say, WoW is that you need a more strategic approach and focused customization, since you're not allowed to slot every single one of your skills in a hot bar, but only the 10.

[edit]Now I'm at the poing of being unsure how much DPS I'm doing at all - anyone got a link to an allowed DPS Meter?

Google ArcDPS. It's the only DPS meter that is still maintained and follows Arena Net's Rules.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Cyberman Mastermind.6012 said:I thought the basic setup of GW2 was intended to make that a moot point (no trinity, pre-set skills). The (common?) use of DPS-Meters means it's not as trivial to make a functioning character as ANet claimed (which was AFAIK the whole reason for not allowing us to customize our skills).

DPS meters reveal differences in skill, and build. Most of GW2 PvE does not require the same skills as those desired in harder, instanced PvE content. Thus, most builds --and performance -- are functional in most of PvE. Functional and best are not the same thing.

What would you have ANet do? Should they trivialize the content so that anyone can complete it with any build, and little to no skill? Should the build and character skill systems be so standardized that there is little room for differences in performance due to skill?That's

EXACTLY

what a lot of people want. They don't want to earn things, they think they're entitled to those things and it should be handed down to them. (See easy mod Raid posts popping up everywhere).Sadly we're living in a time where equality somehow now means the extremist of Communisms, where everyone

must

have the exact same outcome otherwise they're being oppressed.@Pimpology.6234 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@altermaven.7385 said:There's a way to check your damage consistency that is built in game. While I don't mind the fact people want to benchmark their stuff. I

do

mind having it as a de-facto criteria for getting into high-tier stuff. Some games consider having the availability of everyone's DPS at their fingertips a bannable offense. Being kicked because you're sub-optimal, because you aren't measuring or sharing your damage output, because you're having a bad DPS day? Having meters as an 'available' option not part of the API is technically considered boundary-crossing, but regardless invites a large wave of unwanted toxicity.

And as for this "check" in the game? It's called a combat log. Sure it's not robust, but it's what you got. It may not measure your total output per second, but you can make rudimentary benches out of it.

To iterate: I'm not against measuring DPS, or having a means to measure it. I

am

, however, against having my details read by someone other than me. I personally do not use DPS meters, because by rights it is across that line that seperates "legit" from "suspicious".

They aren’t your details, all combat data is public data in gw2, and Toxicity hasn’t risen due to combat meters, since Toxicity was even more prevalent in the form of completely arbitrary reasons like AP or kick or full zerk or kick, and no Ranger and Necro or kick.

And they aren’t boundary crossing since the people that set the boundaries are Anet and they said as long as Combat Meters meet their compliance standards they are ok.

As a gw2 vet from launch, the Toxicity levels have most definetly gone waaay up post raids. To say that's not true is just insane. All one has to do to get a glimpse of what goes on in game is to just read all these hundreds of posts about it.

As a GW2 Vet from pre-launch and Betas, i see pretty much the exact same thing. Well, not the exact same thing, because while in the past you'd get discriminated solely based on your class, or AP, or whatever was the flavour of the month factor, now we have concrete data and evidence to what works and what doesn't. Now you're not discriminated based on arbitrary things, you're evaluated based on your performance. And that's the wonder of DPS meters.

@"Dondarrion.2748" said:I think a DPS meter has good value; however the extension that I just discovered called DPS Mechanics or something which will highlight if players fail certain raid mechanics etc and provide you with options to setup auto-kicking, etc. THAT I have a problem with.

http://martionlabs.com/arcdps-mechanics-log-plugin/

The setup instructions of the DPS Mechanics begins with 'Don't be a kitten' and then the whole tool is basically made so you can be a kitten... I know the developer suggests it is meant to be a tool to teach players when they fail a mechanic; but this sort of tool goes so much further than a simple DPS meter in breeding a toxic community.

To be fair, that's nothing new? Raidar, Raid Heroes and other ArcDPS log parser already can tell you when you mess up a mechanic, that tool just does it live. It is a way to improve performance by identifying, isolating and learning from your mistakes.In truth more than just DPS Raids are a lot about mechanics, if you're good with mechanics you can finish a lot of raids with mediocre DPS, most of the times the DPS is used more as a way to bypass mechanics than anything else.

You consider the tool toxic, because you expect to fail, that's the whole issue here. People that are against DPS meters have this mentality that performing well, and trying to achieve is somehow a bad thing, and everyone that wants to perform is somehow elitist... Well it's not! Wanting to do good, in everything you do, is a good thing.

@casualkenny.9817 said:Imagine if such a function came into being today, and op goes in and finds that a lot of players are using meters, but the majority of them don't give a second glance at his normal dps. Will he feel neglected?

Like, seriously, what percentage of humans would care at all about your combat data if your dps value looks normal or sufficient for the particular content? What on earth made you think that normal humans would care about your combat behaviour? Of course there are abberants - just block them then.

Even the most aberrant person won't be able to complain if everyone in the group is doing well. You'll only get berated or criticized if there's anything to be critic of.

@altermaven.7385 said:

@Pimpology.6234 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@altermaven.7385 said:There's a way to check your damage consistency that is built in game. While I don't mind the fact people want to benchmark their stuff. I

do

mind having it as a de-facto criteria for getting into high-tier stuff. Some games consider having the availability of everyone's DPS at their fingertips a bannable offense. Being kicked because you're sub-optimal, because you aren't measuring or sharing your damage output, because you're having a bad DPS day? Having meters as an 'available' option not part of the API is technically considered boundary-crossing, but regardless invites a large wave of unwanted toxicity.

And as for this "check" in the game? It's called a combat log. Sure it's not robust, but it's what you got. It may not measure your total output per second, but you can make rudimentary benches out of it.

To iterate: I'm not against measuring DPS, or having a means to measure it. I

am

, however, against having my details read by someone other than me. I personally do not use DPS meters, because by rights it is across that line that seperates "legit" from "suspicious".

They aren’t your details, all combat data is public data in gw2, and Toxicity hasn’t risen due to combat meters, since Toxicity was even more prevalent in the form of completely arbitrary reasons like AP or kick or full zerk or kick, and no Ranger and Necro or kick.

And they aren’t boundary crossing since the people that set the boundaries are Anet and they said as long as Combat Meters meet their compliance standards they are ok.

As a gw2 vet from launch, the Toxicity levels have most definetly gone waaay up post raids. To say that's not true is just insane. All one has to do to get a glimpse of what goes on in game is to just read all these hundreds of posts about it.

That's the point I was trying to make, unfortunately, and to make such the norm of PUG life has obliterated the checks and balances. And the causation of toxicity is more than just DPS meters. All I can say is that making a means to measure/show your DPS to others mandatory in order to "get in" will only worsen matters so much more, and adds to the heap of the elitism problem.

Then again, elitism is the scourge of MMOs in general. We just have it far worse. How do you put out a fire? You certainly can't ignore it.

Far worse than what? Are you for real? Like 90% of MMORPGs out there allow gear check if you don't have the specific set in a specific way you will be insta kicked.In Black Desert a lot of guilds outright ask for a minimum gear score to recruit. We have it Worse? In what universe?

[ProtoGunner.4953]

I like transparency, so you can see people who are doing next to nothing in the dps department. Of course there are black sheep who kick you if you don't do 'enough' damage which is stupid. But you don't want to have such players in your party anyways. That said, if you are good you don't have to fear anything. I never had any issues with people using dps meters. But then again I often play with friends.

[Holykitten.3064]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Proof low dps is not proof if person is underperforming its the responsebility of rest of group to help ore carry person through

I couldn’t disagree with this anymore than I am doing.It is not the responsibility of the group to carry or help any player through any content, especially if the group in being formed is one of experience. Most groups for Fractals and raids are forming with the intention of every player doing their role efficiently. Whether that is support or damage.You would be correct if said group states “training, casual, first timers” etc. But for the sake of this discussion, those groups do not care about or use the meter in the same capacity that efficient groups do.This discussion basically boils down to efficient groups using meters and spotting the weakest link in a party. In that case, no, players shouldn’t and don’t have to carry anyone.

[Sonyc.7038]

Okay listen up guys. Let's have a different view on this topic - or even better let's have a view from both sites but i am trying my best to keep it neutral - with facts.This DPS-Kitten is going on for too long.First of all - ppl who dont like the DPS-mentality: It's totally understandable for me and i guess for other dps-meter-users that you dont want to be looked at or get pointed out and yes, there are ppl out who are toxic about every 1k dps more or not.But the majority of dps-meter-users will only open theire mouth if some ppl are by far underperforming. For example Holosmith on VG, easily deals 25k ~ 30k dmg played by a decent player because its a very easy class. Now i see someone doing 10k with it or less. Why is this happening? The person does not know mechanics or does not know how to play the Holosmith well. There are three options now: i know that the player is new to raids because he stated that before the beginning so i will still give him his chance because i knew he is new because he opened his mouth and told me that - this is fair play. Or he joined and didnt say a word and might even get kicked for not having enough LI. Which option would a fair player choose? Or the third option the player states he's dps got enough LI and still underperformes - well please get out of my raid because ppl who dont pull theire weight dont deserve a kill in my eyes. Ppl want something. Please work for it at least a bit.And now from the point of view of the "toxic" ppl: I want a smooth run and a fast clear, i've been practising my rotation and learned the boss mechanics - u didnt? Well then please leave my raid because it's my desire to play it my style and my style is high dps easy mechanics and smooth kill. Doesnt that sound fair? Because ppl have different point of views and different desires? Raids are content with timers in the right upper corner and the timer sets the meta - less dps = more time taken, more mechanics to deal with.Ontopic: I dont think that the number of dps itself really is personal data. I mean in my opinion it's just a number that a character generates. It doesnt tell me where you life or who you are, how old you are, your gender or anything. Yes in the end its the player who is "producing" this number but it doesnt tell my anything it only makes me assume that he plays good or bad for whichever reason.

To sum this kitten up i'd state that nothing will prevent ppl from being toxic or however you want to call it. No flagging no tagging no ban of dps-meters. It's the community and in my eyes both sides can be toxic by demanding things and not regarding others.For those out there who are not a fan of the dps-meter: It's your right to state your oppinion and to play your style and do whatever you want in any type of content in this game, but please keep in mind that there are other ppl out there who focus on effiency and it's theire right to play it theire style and form groups however they want. Have a look at the LFG. If you cant fulfill the stated things - dont join. If you do you dont respect the commander / ppl creating this group.For those out there who look for the greatest effiency: If ppl are not fulfilling the requirements you stated for your group - kick them, its your right to form your group your way. But let ppl be and state facts and not just flame.and for both. why not try to avoid each other? would be fair play in my eyes. i dont join a 10 LI practise-run and flame them, neither should ppl join a squad which requirements they cant fulfill and cry if they get kicked out. right now 250 LI or higher should make you assume that this group demands close to benchmark dps - if you cant do that dont join.it's all about fair play

EDIT: typo

[maddoctor.2738]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:This is one of those things that bothers me about Anets stance on meters: it is counter-intuitive to how they act everywhere else.

What's your stance on the topic of the thread, to flag players that use dps meters?

[yann.1946]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:In other words, you'd not be pissed off if you created a group and bunch of elite people with a DPS meter decides you aren't cutting it, despite you doing well, and kick you just because they don't like you? Okay, because that's legit and completely honest.

I pug

everything

in game, apart from raids (I don't have the time commitment for it), I can't even remember the last time I was kicked from a T4 fractal group. It may not have even been in T4 I was kicked.That attitude, is not caused by the DPS meter. The meter creates

proof

to base such actions on. If players would rather be a kitten, rather than say, 'can you (underperformer) do this this and this and maybe you'll do a bit better' and TRY, I don't want to be in that group, so I wouldn't mind the kick.

Fair enough. I also agree it's better to cut your losses early. It's just upsetting to know that people use this "proof" as a justification for poor sportsmanship; as I said, I do not take issue with the tool, I take issue with the people using that tool for less than savory purposes. Also, I probably wasn't clear about this point and feel as though I

should

clarify it: "I am very

much

against flagging people with a DPS meter, that is still in someway ostracizing against basic rights. In the same breath, though, I'm also against people that misuse tools and make it an issue for those that are using it for the "right" reasons, like you.

Proof low dps is not proof if person is underperforming its the responsebility of rest of group to help ore carry person through

Trough but what if a person doesn't want to be helped? Why would the desire of 1 trancedent the desire of the group?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:In other words, you'd not be pissed off if you created a group and bunch of elite people with a DPS meter decides you aren't cutting it, despite you doing well, and kick you just because they don't like you? Okay, because that's legit and completely honest.

I pug

everything

in game, apart from raids (I don't have the time commitment for it), I can't even remember the last time I was kicked from a T4 fractal group. It may not have even been in T4 I was kicked.That attitude, is not caused by the DPS meter. The meter creates

proof

to base such actions on. If players would rather be a kitten, rather than say, 'can you (underperformer) do this this and this and maybe you'll do a bit better' and TRY, I don't want to be in that group, so I wouldn't mind the kick.

Fair enough. I also agree it's better to cut your losses early. It's just upsetting to know that people use this "proof" as a justification for poor sportsmanship; as I said, I do not take issue with the tool, I take issue with the people using that tool for less than savory purposes. Also, I probably wasn't clear about this point and feel as though I

should

clarify it: "I am very

much

against flagging people with a DPS meter, that is still in someway ostracizing against basic rights. In the same breath, though, I'm also against people that misuse tools and make it an issue for those that are using it for the "right" reasons, like you.

Proof low dps is not proof if person is underperforming its the responsebility of rest of group to help ore carry person through

How is proof of low DPS not proof a person is under-performing in a DPS role? That doesn't make sense. Are we talking about players disconnecting mid-fight or something? I don't get it.

Also, how can you possibly believe that you are entitled to be carried by other players through content? I have nothing against you personally, but I play this game (and any other!) for my own enjoyment. I personally never single other players out unless they're being rude and I spend much of my time when not playing solo helping other players, including plenty of open world, dungeon, and fractal carries where I'm contributing the vast majority of damage for the group. But if any of the players I've helped expressed the opinion that I owe them anything, I'd tell them they're being quite rude and probably find something better to do with my time.

You must have meant something else by this, although I can't imagine what. Care to elaborate?

[Zin Dau.1749]

If you try to deny people to use tools that measure objective, public data, then you leave them no choice but to measure you by prying into your actual personal data, including AP, gear, etc.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Pimpology.6234" said:Basically there's 2 kinds of people that come to a forum post titled "Flag DPS-Meter user in the game". #1 people that like to raid and like easy to read DPS out put of meters. #2 people that like to raid, but don't like the rise in toxicity dps meters bring along with the ride. Anyone else really shouldn't be here. :D

Really? I think anyone deserves to have an opinion. I don't raid and don't care about raiding, but I use arcdps and I care about having access to a damage meter. I'd rather you raiders (on both sides of this issue) work out your issues and leave arcdps alone.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:This is one of those things that bothers me about Anets stance on meters: it is counter-intuitive to how they act everywhere else.

What's your stance on the topic of the thread, to flag players that use dps meters?

I'd like it. One of the things that I don't like about hidden meters is the ever-present fear that I'm constantly being judged. I've practiced my rotations and I can DPS with the best of them (except for mesmer builds, for some odd reason), but I don't like how I have to go full tryhard all the time. I'm very sick, and I'm getting old. Sometimes, I don't want to be at my best. Sometimes, I can't be at my best. I just want to be "good enough".

[nia.4725]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:This is one of those things that bothers me about Anets stance on meters: it is counter-intuitive to how they act everywhere else.

What's your stance on the topic of the thread, to flag players that use dps meters?

I'd like it. One of the things that I don't like about hidden meters is the ever-present fear that I'm constantly being judged. I've practiced my rotations and I can DPS with the best of them (except for mesmer builds, for some odd reason), but I don't like how I have to go full tryhard all the time. I'm very sick, and I'm getting old. Sometimes, I don't want to be at my best. Sometimes, I can't be at my best. I just want to be "good enough".

No one but horrible and not-worth-to-play-with people will flame or judge or kick you for doing just "good enough" dps. If it's good enough it's good enough, so it's ok.