Question For All of You: Is Preaching A Religion or a Political Viewpoint Allowed By The ToS?

[Andrew Man.7239]

Hi! This post might be a little controversial, but I'd like to ask something to the player base and the GM's at ArenaNet.Picture this: You're going into a map to do a boss or into the PvP lobby to do some matches, and you check map chat. In there you see a lot of people copying and pasting scriptures from religious texts, speaking explicitly about their political views, and trying to convert others to a religion. This happens to me quite a lot, and before you guys tell me to just block the people who are doing this, remember that a lot of people will get involved in something like this. There are many 'quiet' people who take the opposite side of these views privately, but once someone says something you disagree with... It's human nature to argue your side. So I know this is a problem that creates a negative environment for some people like me who want to have casual conversations and talk strategy, but I'm not sure if it's allowed by the ToS to do this. There could be rules that are being broken alongside, and often times there are, but there are also people who simply copy and paste holy scriptures to their heart's content, with the spam filter not reacting due to the time it takes to copy and paste them from a website or to copy them down from a tangible form of the book. If this is considered spamming, or somehow violating any rules of the Terms of Service, I also feel like the hard working team at ArenaNet, as much as I admire their work, should take action to the former when they see it. Of course, I'm not saying that they can't be vocal about their religions at all. Just, during debates, a more private setting like /party or /whisper would be better for other people who don't want to debate about it/or hear about it. It's very possible I could just be a jerk who wants to violate everyone's first amendment. If that's the case, please don't flame at me. I'm only trying to make the community a little healthier. Thanks for reading, and leave a comment telling me your opinion on this matter. Thanks for reading!

[Andrew Man.7239]

(Oof, I just realized I put thanks for reading twice. This is what happens at 12AM.)

[Conncept.7638]

No it's not allowed, and anyone who thinks their first amendment rights apply in this situation is an absolute tool, your first amendment rights do not protect you from being removed from someone else's private property for whatever you say, and it is already established law that any server space is private property.

[Andrew Man.7239]

@Conncept.7638 said:No it's not allowed, and anyone who thinks their first amendment rights apply in this situation is an absolute tool, your first amendment rights do not protect you from being removed from someone else's private property for whatever you say, and it is already established law that any server space is private property.

Okay, thanks for letting me know. I'll try to remind the people I see doing it that it's not allowed.

[Hashberry.4510]

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

[Andrew Man.7239]

@"Hashberry.4510" said:"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Clever. Very clever.

[Hashberry.4510]

I might just take a bow.

[Andrew Man.7239]

@Hashberry.4510 said:I might just take a bow.

/me bows to Jesus Christ.

[Hashberry.4510]

Actually, I feel your concern. Block and move on is all we can do.

[Batel.9206]

Yeah, that's probably against the TOS. If your reminders and warnings go unnoticed, then feel free to report them. :)

I'd say it could fall under this part (emphasis mine)

While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.

There's a time and a place to talk about religion, and the map chat/general PVP lobby of a fantasy game is...not it.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

I couldn’t find anything specifically against it, but it’s one of those things that would easily lead to people crossing the line into reportable areas.

One thing I did find if they are copy pasting large chunks of text is this:

When communicating in Guild Wars 2 using global chat (including, without limitation, server wide chat and use of the whisper command), you may not spam, flood, or make duplicate posts.

[Holykitten.3064]

I’d personally report as spam.I don’t log into a fantasy game to see copy paste text from any “holy book”. Sure, having discussions not based on the game is fine, talking religion/politics included. But ramming your “holy words” towards my eyes? No thanks. I’m not interested, I made my mind up about religion a looooong time ago. It’s like Jehovah’s Witnesses knocking on my door, although if I’ve got time, I invite them in “for a chat” (as they like to do) and they leave questioning their existence.Although, I’ve never seen what to OP describes actually happen. Maybe there’s more vocal religious people ingame there on NA than on EU, or whoever does it likes to troll using religious bait. Don’t know.

[Randulf.7614]

@Andrew Man.7239 said:

@Conncept.7638 said:No it's not allowed, and anyone who thinks their first amendment rights apply in this situation is an absolute tool, your first amendment rights do not protect you from being removed from someone else's private property for whatever you say, and it is already established law that any server space is private property.

Okay, thanks for letting me know. I'll try to remind the people I see doing it that it's not allowed.

Whilst you can if you wish, they will just ignore you or argue with you and chat will just devolve into a further mess for anet support to have to untangle should they see it. If you see something you think is inappropriate, block and report it - either in game or via a ticket - and walk away.

[CETheLucid.3964]

Talking about your faith and political views isn't expressly forbidden but as you can imagine, such a topic can get hot very quickly and devolve into personal attacks and name calling... lots of love lost for both sides.

It's not a promising topic to involve yourself in-game with randoms and strangers and it literally serves no purpose to any goal therein. You're going to upset and challenge somebody and if even a cursory look at these very forums on touchier subjects is any indication, you know how it's going to go 9 times out of 10.

I would argue challenging people and having an honest discussion isn't a bad thing in of itself but it can only go so far as the other person is mature. As far as you yourself are mature. Many people (myself included) don't tend to know when the conversation is effectively over.

And you're playing an MMO with fairly young people more often than not. You can guess how that'll end up, right?:trollface: :trollface: :trollface: :trollface:

[Voltekka.2375]

Taken from the TOS:You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist,anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

So, I would guess religion or political talks are fine, as long as people stay civil.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Taken from the TOS:You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist,anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

So, I would guess religion or political talks are fine, as long as people stay civil.

So talking about god or presidency is fine, but talking about atheism or anarchy is against ToS?

• thinking

[Danikat.8537]

As other people have said I don't think it's directly against the TOS, but it could very easily lead to behaviour which is. If you think it's inappropriate, especially if they're copying and pasting an entire book (which is spamming) you can report them and block them. If you don't think it's reportable but you still don't want to see it you can just block them.

I wouldn't try telling them they shouldn't be doing it unless you're reasonably confident they genuinely don't realise that. There's a very good chance they're trying to pick a fight, either for it's own sake or because they think that if anyone tries to disagree they can perfectly counter all of their arguments and the other person will realise how wrong they were and will convert on the spot. (No really, this is exactly what some people try to do in real life.)

Also as other people have said the USA's first amendment doesn't apply here. It only prevents the US government from stopping you saying what you think. Game servers are the online equivalent of someone's house - they can set whatever rules they like (as long as it doesn't violate other laws). That goes double for the EU servers which are based in Germany and therefore not subject to US law.

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Taken from the TOS:You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist,anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

So, I would guess religion or political talks are fine, as long as people stay civil.

So talking about god or presidency is fine, but talking about atheism or anarchy is against ToS?

• thinking

Atheism isn't anti-religion, it's simply the absence of religion (or more specifically absence of belief in a deity). Anti-theism is being anti-religion. The difference may seem subtle, even arbitrary (especially to a religious person) but it is there - one is you don't personally believe in God or any higher power, the other is you are opposed to religion and want to prevent anyone else believing it.

So for example you can say "I do not believe in God" just as you can say "I do believe in God" (and call that god whatever you wish). You can't say "you shouldn't believe in God because..."

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

If it's RP, then yes, it's allowed. For example, we see this discussed even with NPCs as far as the Searing and the Six. But as far as real-life politics and religion?

Examples of Infraction CategoriesWe prohibit overt or disguised language or links to websites containing language or images that fall into the general categories listed below. For your assistance, definitions or examples are included with each category. This list is not comprehensive, and issues that arise outside those listed below will be addressed on a case-by-case basis at the discretion of our moderation team and forum leadership. For additional information, see the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement.

Off-Topic / Spamming / Trolling / Derailing / Non-ConstructiveInappropriate LanguagePersonal Attacks / Harassment / Naming and ShamingRacial / EthnicSexuality / Obscenity / ViolenceReal-Money Trading / Account Sales / AdvertisingRelease of Real-World Personal InformationSexual Orientation / Gender IdentityHacks, Cheats, Exploits, or Malicious ProgramsImpersonating an ArenaNet EmployeeUnreleased or Data-Mined ContentMajor Religions / Religious or Political FiguresNationalismDrug Abuse or Illegal ActivitiesDiscussing / Debating Moderator or GM ActionsCreating Duplicate Threads / Cross postingCircumventing an Account Suspension or Termination

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/the-forums-code-of-conduct/

You may not select an Account ID, Account Display Name, ArenaNet Message Board ID, Character ID and/or Team designation, or provide any communication or information on any Message Board, that ArenaNet, in its reasonable discretion, deems to be vulgar, threatening, racist, sexist or otherwise offensive, including but not limited to references related to any religion or deity;

While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

As far as I can see, players can discuss politics so long as it doesn't harass players or cause strife. While I find such discussions in-game distasteful, and inflaming in chat, they are allowed within reason. However, sending another player repeated messages, for example, like, "Make America Great Again!" are not allowed.

Hope this helped,

[Goettel.4389]

Not sure if it's allowed, but it sure is silly.

[Ray Koopa.2354]

Wouldn't it then also be allowed to scream Allahu ~Snackbar~ all around confusing people the same way?

[Voltekka.2375]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Taken from the TOS:You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist,anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

So, I would guess religion or political talks are fine, as long as people stay civil.

So talking about god or presidency is fine, but talking about atheism or anarchy is against ToS?

• thinking

I would expect it to be fine, so long as people behave. I dont see how atheism is against the ToS, unless someone uses atheism to provoke people (same happens with those who use religion to provoke others)

[starlinvf.1358]

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:Talking about your faith and political views isn't expressly forbidden but as you can imagine, such a topic can get hot very quickly and devolve into personal attacks and name calling... lots of love lost for both sides.

It's not a promising topic to involve yourself in-game with randoms and strangers and it literally serves no purpose to any goal therein. You're going to upset and challenge somebody and if even a cursory look at these very forums on touchier subjects is any indication, you know how it's going to go 9 times out of 10.

I would argue challenging people and having an honest discussion isn't a bad thing in of itself but it can only go so far as the other person is mature. As far as you yourself are mature. Many people (myself included) don't tend to know when the conversation is effectively over.

And you're playing an MMO with fairly young people more often than not. You can guess how that'll end up, right?:trollface: :trollface: :trollface: :trollface:

Personally I see a distinction between a conversation and a "platform". And I'm using the term "Platform" in the Soap box sense. Stopping a discussion whole sale because "someone is/or could be offended" is enough justification to disable communication entirely..... theres no practical way to police this with an objective eye. And to an extent, this can work if the game is well designed to convey communication via mechanics. Splatoon and FFXI (of all games) accomplished this almost on accident.

But one reason I think the internet has such a problem understanding Free Speech, and the constant misuse in trying to cite it, rests at least partially with how empathy works (or doesn't work) with this layer of social abstraction. Social media is an amplifier for this affect, and with so many things (games, services, programs, even entire product lines) trying to establish themselves as Social hubs, the simultaneous segregation and desegregation of the user base leads to many using sociopolitical markers as a surrogate for identity. IE; we care less on a personal level, and try to substitute a whole social category in its place. And it sounds weird at first, but slowly begins to make sense when you start looking at the behavior of modern guilds. Guilds have becoming increasingly more exclusionary in the interest of niche appeal/cohesion, and guilds which are non-exclusionary (and the discourse that comes with it) incapable of accomplishing any particular goal. With guilds being seen as a vehicle to be exploited for personal benefits (both social and practical), you eventually start getting selection bias until it eventually hits the point of being an echo chamber.

Tying into this is the uptick I've seen over the years with the word "disenfranchised", or synonyms of it. This rabbit hole goes way deeper then is possible to cover here, but the point I'm trying to convey is that many games and their players are no longer in this functional synchronization state that breeds cooperation, and this lack of focus is causing these otherwise irrelevant things to gain too much attention. When theres no reason to put aside our differences, they'll inevitably clash. And that it doesn't help people don't want to be challenged any more, because of how quickly groups ostracize individuals who deviate from some perceived norm.

And as I'm saying that... it just dawned on me the hypocrisy of a video game community wanting to suppress non-game related topics, and ironically justifying the very thing they were saying they wanted to avoid. And for bonus irony, this is actually the premise of the entire GW2 story line....... people all claiming there is a "bigger issue" that needs to be dealt with first, but all incapable of wrapping their minds around what that bigger issue is. So to each and every one of them, the concerns of the others are petty by comparison, and this ends up dividing and distracting everyone from accomplishing anything of real importance..... except for the villains. There was another thread talking about wanting to see the Villains win some place in the story..... but when you look back, the Villains are the only ones that have accomplished any of their major goals. And with every Victory on the Commander's side, its actually made everything worse, as they struggle of grasps the ramifications of any action they can, have, or could make. Most people hated this; but this is actually a much better use of the Primal nature of the Dragons, and its analogs to how modern human society likes to deal with its problems.

......... STOP IT BRAIN!!!! ...... ugh..... now I just realized this means MegasXLR has been further elevated as a piece of social commentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6FcyuVy250

Wait....does that mean anything I just said matters?

[CETheLucid.3964]

@starlinvf.1358 said:Wait....does that mean anything I just said matters?I thought you were pretty spot on with most of it. In short it's just the nature of mankind. People believe their way is the best and if you think differently in a reasonably feasible way, it bothers. You get a conversation. Or in OP's words@"Andrew Man.7239" said:once someone says something you disagree with... It's human nature to argue your sidePeople like OP (and most people for that matter) simply don't want to engage. This doesn't mean they're unable to engage, but likely view the endeavor as a waste of time given the meaningless medium.

That's not to say chat in GW2 is meaningless but rather that some grand complex issue of religion or politics isn't done justice or given a fair shake on Guild Wars 2 map chat for either side. And that's not on the game for any reason.

Guild Wars 2 is for playing the grand game that is Guild Wars 2. Not for complex sociopolitical debates. That said I also personally don't want to live to see a world where we can't just casually talk about whatever, which is what we can do right now, imperfect as it is.

So while I share OP's distaste of mapchat sociopolitical trolls (and I have a rather unflattering name for my mapchat tab), I'm also not too keen on enforcing some kind of "approved safe-talk" list. I don't want people to be afraid to use mapchat for fear of offense or punishment, even the stupid ones that I rather dislike.

The games who strictly enforce this (looking at you Overwatch) effectively kill their in-game community and actually make the entire scene worse because the people who are decent are afraid to talk for fear of punishment and the rather stupid ones never cared much for what the rules say in the first place.

So in your "safe-talk" space you end up with a bunch of malcontents who literally exist just to spew their nonsense and a bunch of timid people who value their accounts in complete radio silence. Maybe play whack-a-mole with the report feature until they get tired of the situation and move on.

Given the choice between the two, I'd rather simply deal with who I run into on my own terms given the tools Anet has already given me rather than ask Anet to nanny state my video game banter.

[Andrew Man.7239]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Taken from the TOS:You may not organize nor be a member of any pledges or groups within Guild Wars 2 that are based on or espouse any racist, sexist,anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate mongering philosophies.

So, I would guess religion or political talks are fine, as long as people stay civil.

So talking about god or presidency is fine, but talking about atheism or anarchy is against ToS?

• thinking

I don't know for sure, but I think the point they're trying to get across is that you can't try to convert people to atheism or for that matter, anything else. Simply saying "I'm an atheist" or "I'm a Christian" shouldn't be banned, it's just the senseless debates.Also, you can bet that when someone in map chat says "Trump 2020," there's almost a 95% chance someone will speak up and fight for their side.

[Andrew Man.7239]

@Ray Koopa.2354 said:Wouldn't it then also be allowed to scream Allahu ~Snackbar~ all around confusing people the same way?

I think people can read in between the lines well enough for that.Same as when people use different letters in swear words to bypass swear filters in other games. You still know what it says, but it's ever so technically permissible.