Raid Selling and "LFG" Clutter [Merged]

Dante.1763 · December 9, 2018

@"gebrechen.5643" said:How is "getting loot" by buying it a positive thing? Everyone has the option to get some friends together and start raiding. Yes, you have to invest time for that. And the toxicity doesn't change a bit without "paid raids".If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.

Because people who can afford to buy it obviously enjoy getting their gold from other places in the game, and spreading that wealth around with others isnt a bad thing. On top of that, i have a grand total of two friends who plays this game, outside of my family. Not everyone has large groups of friends who are interested in trying raids. Sure i have guilds, but im not "friends" with the people in them. I run in a static group one of those friends has put together, and if it wasnt for him i wouldnt ever have set foot in raids.

Not everyone plays MMORPGS for the same reasons as you. I personally enjoy running around by myself(and i have in any MMO ive played) far more fun than i do grouped up, and the "RP" aspect of MMORPG is one of those that i enjoy the most. Raids are stressful, and frustrating, theres no fun involved(obviously my opinion) because the smallest mistake can cause a wipe when it comes to mechanics, and honestly if i had the gold id buy the runs myself to avoid all of that completely.

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:If item selling is not allowed in lfg, and it is thriving on the 3rd party site, then raid selling should be the same. Keep lfg clear. While we are at it, allow us to reopen bosses were previously killed for the week. Keep lfg for actual lfgs.

Buying an item from a third party website can get your account banned, ecspecially if its for real money, and ANET provides an ingame place to sell items to other players, its called the trading post, outside of that you assume a risk in dealing with other players and ANET wont assist you if you get scammed out of your item or gold. If Raid selling had a separate tab in the LFG tool this would be a non issue as players wouldn't see what they didn't want to.

Psientist.6437 · December 9, 2018

I have yet to see a convincing argument that selling raid spots damages the game or decreases the number of people finding value in raids or the possible ways to find value in raids. The only argument anti-sellers are offering is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. No true mmo gamer would ever buy a spot on a raid or taken to the extreme, buy anything. They use gate keeping to protect their identity as gamers. Our identities and how we shape them have inherent value, but are not so precious that everyone should be held to them.

If the option to buy spots was removed, some of the people currently buying spots would invest in the gear and time required to be a true Scotsman raider. However, since both options exist and they have chosen to buy a spot, we can assume that buying a spot is their genuine preference. We can confidently predict that only a small percentage would go on to be true Scotsman raiders. That percentage would have to be compared to the percentage of spot buyers who go on to become true Scotsman after having the chance to be carried, the percentage of true Scotsman raiders who sell spots and would no longer raid or decrease how often they raid because a revenue stream disappeared, the percentage of spot buyers who would become leechers, the percentage of non raiders or spot buyers who purchase the goods spot buyers sell to afford a spot, and the role spot selling has on true Scotsman raiders pushing builds and strategies so there are spots open to sell.

Those against selling spots can continue making fallacious arguments based on how they shape their identity as gamers, but please stop pretending selling spots hurts the game or is analogous to a toxic personality trait for GW2.

Astralporing.1957 · December 9, 2018

@gebrechen.5643 said:If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.I don't know about you, but that's definitely not why i play MMOs. Not even close.

borgs.6103 · December 9, 2018

LOLThis is the same as having problems with LFG posts of mesmers porting people at jumping puzzles/Mastery Points/Hero Points for tips.

Ashen.2907 · December 9, 2018

Because the people who own the property said so.

Psientist.6437 · December 9, 2018

Monetizing raiding does erode the native topography of the true Scots Raider and if Sasquatch can walk a Flat Earth then why not accept a place for true Tyrian Raiders to express and reward themselves. Perhaps the threshold for monetizing minimum or limited participation in raids can be maintained by a reward topography of core raid skill metrics such as critical hit chains, combination counters, and damage. Players would directly earn along a reward path as they made combinations, beat old high damage scores, buffed other players, provided healing, etc. A player could demonstrate proficiency in a role, making it easier to negotiate a non-paying place in a raid group. True Tyrian Raider merchants could demonstrate their proficiency and skill level.

The skill profile for raiding is analogous to and exists on a spectrum with, the skill profile for PvP and certainly deserves similar reward treatment.

schokelmei.8271 · December 9, 2018

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"gebrechen.5643" said:If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.I don't know about you, but that's definitely
not
why i play MMOs. Not even close.

That's ok, but why play an MMORPG in the first place? It's already in the name "massive MULTIplayer online roleplaying game". You still can play it solo and there are a lot of things to do solo, but raids are by nature content designed for groups. And group play is associated with social behaviour, team play and learning.And that's where the game suffers when you enable people to take shortcuts.You can see what happens to MMORPG when this selling stuff and buying raids/pvp gets out of hands in World of WarcraftThe community went from "normal" to mostly toxic, because people hate on each other for buying, selling, achievements or kicking each other out of groups because they seem not to fit in, don't have the necessary achievements, can't play their class, etc.It went that far that you use tools to find out if the player you invite is boosted to his gear or got it a legit way. You can't even group up for pvp anymore without linking your achievement window. Meanwhile people search for carries, pay hundreds of thousand of gold because almost no one wants to be bothered anymore to create a own raid. It's easier to dumb down the process, buy or farm gold and get carried.It can take you hours to find a group for anything, because people expect to be carried with their groups. A wipe in a mythic+ (similar to fractals) mostly ends the group.We had a very successful raid and rbg team back in 2013 in that game. It took as weeks to find a player that was able to play his class on at least mediocre level to fill a raid slot. Most people that wanted to join us had good gear, but couldn't play a basic rotation in a test raid.Same goes for pvp. After we transfered to GW2, I still tried to pvp in WoW for a while. It was impossible to find a group that wanted me, because I only had the 2,2k pvp achievement and they wanted at least 2,3k+ - for a group playing in the 1800 ranking area.

That's all things which come with "selling" and "buying" of key components of the game. It rises peoples expectations, it makes the community toxic and takes away the incentive from people to reward themselves by trying and working for stuff.

ArchonWing.9480 · December 9, 2018

My thought is that I have much better stuff to do than waste my time on LFG looking for things that don't seem right. This is like a non-issue beyond a non-issue.

Astralporing.1957 · December 10, 2018

@gebrechen.5643 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@gebrechen.5643 said:If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.I don't know about you, but that's definitely
not
why i play MMOs. Not even close.

That's ok, but why play an MMORPG in the first place? It's already in the name "massive MULTIplayer online roleplaying game". You still can play it solo and there are a lot of things to do solo, but raids are by nature content designed for groups. And group play is associated with social behaviour, team play and learning.First part, not necessarily the last one. I play to unwind, and for the social aspect. I do not play to "improve" myself. I do not play to "challenge" myself. I know that some people do, but that's by no means a factor common to all players. It wasn't even in the old hardcore times when 100k total population was considered really massive for a multiplayer game. It definitely wasn't after the games opened for a bigger population and started to be more accepting of casual gameplay.

You can see what happens to MMORPG when this selling stuff and buying raids/pvp gets out of hands in World of WarcraftThe community went from "normal" to mostly toxic, because people hate on each other for buying, selling, achievements or kicking each other out of groups because they seem not to fit in, don't have the necessary achievements, can't play their class, etc.You... don't really remember the "good old times", do you. A hint: for the most part, toxicity is not connected to raid selling. In fact, most raiders do not really seem to care about it. The hate and toxicity has a completely different source - one that existed since the very beginning.

Illconceived Was Na.9781 · December 10, 2018

The community went from "normal" to mostly toxic, because people hate on each other for buying, selling, achievements or kicking each other out of groups because they seem not to fit in, don't have the necessary achievements, can't play their class, etc.

The "community" has always included people who hate on buyers and sellers, people who kick others out of groups for whatever reasonable or unreasonable criteria.

robertthebard.8150 · December 10, 2018

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@gebrechen.5643 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@gebrechen.5643 said:If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.I don't know about you, but that's definitely
not
why i play MMOs. Not even close.

That's ok, but why play an MMORPG in the first place? It's already in the name "massive MULTIplayer online roleplaying game". You still can play it solo and there are a lot of things to do solo, but raids are by nature content designed for groups. And group play is associated with social behaviour, team play and learning.First part, not necessarily the last one. I play to unwind, and for the social aspect. I do not play to "improve" myself. I do not play to "challenge" myself. I know that some people do, but that's by no means a factor common to all players. It wasn't even in the old hardcore times when 100k total population was considered really massive for a multiplayer game. It definitely wasn't after the games opened for a bigger population and started to be more accepting of casual gameplay.

You can see what happens to MMORPG when this selling stuff and buying raids/pvp gets out of hands in World of WarcraftThe community went from "normal" to mostly toxic, because people hate on each other for buying, selling, achievements or kicking each other out of groups because they seem not to fit in, don't have the necessary achievements, can't play their class, etc.You... don't really remember the "good old times", do you. A hint: for the most part, toxicity is not connected to raid selling. In fact, most raiders do not really seem to care about it. The hate and toxicity has a completely different source - one that existed since the very beginning.

The people that raid normally? The "gear elitists" that want to peek in your virtual windows to see if you're special enough to be in their groups? Ah, the good ol' days, where a player will spend 15 minutes waiting for a group to fill complaining about another character's gear/HP, and then demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the mechanics of a raid?

In DDO, my 298 HP artificer wasn't qualified to run a quest, because I didn't have 300 HP, from the party healer, for about 15 minutes, before I dropped group and ran the exact same quest, on the same difficulty, solo. Or maybe you want something more recent? swtor, requiring NiM grade gear for a Story Mode operation, or also from swtor, complaining about the healers in a raid group being "undergeared", and then standing in the world's most obvious tells to eat a laser, and die. What part of the glaring sirens and flashing lights, and the rest of the group moving off to the platforms on the sides of where the boss fight happens doesn't cue you in that it's time to move? That toxicity that comes from having "all the right stuff", because someone carried you to it, and you suddenly believe you know better than anyone else, maybe? There's a reason that I advise people to fill groups from their guilds and friends list. I've seen the toxicity of the raiding community spread over decades of games.

That's not to say there isn't enough to go around, I'm sure there is, but when I think of the "good ol' days", the amount of elitism from raiding communities is the first thing I remember, when raids are the topic anyway. I've seen enough to fuel my own cynicism about raiding in general, at least from groups outside of people you actually know, even if it's just through your guild/(s). I've also seen enough to know that selling spots isn't really a "main" factor. Sure, it makes some people mad, but that's on them. The toxicity has it's roots a lot closer to elitists, some of whom couldn't be bothered to sell a completion. Their main issue seems to always center around "If I can't get the exact group I want, we won't be able to finish". Hey, sometimes that can be a valid consideration, but as in my first example from swtor above: The gear he's requiring for a SM op, NiM rated, that's Nightmare, in case you didn't know, dropped in the SM versions of the ops, so you can't run with him, unless you don't really need to run it. I wonder why some groups take hours to fill?

sephiroth.4217 · December 11, 2018

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.
It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.
Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:
It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

I'm sorry but no, if you had actually any real interest in raids you would have found ways to raid by now.

Simply putting up a Looking for Group and hoping people will flock to you and add you to their raid is about as fruitful as watching grass grow (and as productive).

There are proper ways which have proven successful for people to get into raiding. They include but are not limited to:

joining a guild which raids and does training runs
joining general training runs
joining a discord server and finding a training raid there (there are discord servers with 1,000+ players on them running multiple training raids at a time

I'm not opposed to people selling raid and boss kills (though I am not thrilled by this either) but this constant nonsense about raids being hard to get into ist just that: nonsense.

There are elegible reasons for someone not being able to raid:

time commitment
age and or disabilities (and even here there is tons of players who manage)
social anxiety
etc.

Most everything else are poor excuses.

Not all of us sit there posting every single day, some of us have families and work to attend too so when I get a spare 2 or 3 hours to game

I post and I still havent managed to get in on one yet

, Ive made a few threads on the forums here asking to be invited and yet Im still to raid.

Raiders are elitists, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way either, its about effeciency.(I totally get it too now after playing cod 4 zombie mode, im level 52 and dont start a round with anything less than level 5 or micless because I want to go more than 10 to 15 rounds)

Those sellers really help players like me and if Im putting money into the game to convert to gold to buy raids then inadvertently they help Anet too, so with that said, I hope nothing drastic changes on the matter.

I fully understand your situation. Please realize though that your approach to raid is akin to entering an empty room day in day out and then complaining that you never meet someone. The LFG is very special in what gets searched for and how it gets used.

Posting in the LFG is simply not the way to get into raiding. It isn't even for experienced raiders (unless they are playing a highly demanded role like chrono and even then it will take way longer than joining directly). Less so as inexperienced raider performing lesser roles. It will NEVER happen that way.

If you want to raid and are limited time wise (which I mentioned as a limiting criteria) then join a raid training discord server and check in there when you have time. Or join a guild which have flexible raid trainings and try to get an evening off. I'm currently helping out in 2 guilds with raid training and many people in those raids have families and full time jobs (and as such are also very precise on ending on time for example).

Send us an invite then.. I play at roughly 8pm Australia time.

I cleared up a guild spot or you can post the training discord channel here?

Im assuming youre able to help, you make it sound super simple. The last 10 or so people who said it was easy refused to post this channel and refused to take first timers but maybe you're different?

Deepcuts.9740 · December 12, 2018

All I want is Anet to create a dedicated lfg section for selling raids or whatever else they want to sell.I am sick of seeing raid lfg filled with sellers.Win win. People who dislike raid selling don't have to deal with it. People who want to buy raids know where to go. People who sell raids, don't have to interact with people who dislike raid selling.If it is against Anet's rules to sell raids, only Anet can be the judge..

Cyninja.2954 · December 12, 2018

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.
It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.
Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:
It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.