New player heaven, Veteran hell

[Glider.5792]

If someone would ask me "What is your opinion on the current state of Guild Wars 2", this is how i would answer them. New player heaven, Veteran hell.

Now... what do i mean with that ?Any new player, joining the game now, would have a TON of stuff to do, without even paying a cent. Just the free game (original) gives the player a ton of content, and afterwards if they're interested, they have the 2 expansions and 3 living story seasons available. They have soo much content to do, especialy if they're the completionist type of player, then they could easily be occupied for multiple years.On the other hand, the veteran players, those that played since launch or later, but still, for multiple years, i feel like we are just not getting enough to do. The living story releases look big, they look great, the story is better than before, but in the end, the actual content is almost non existant, at least in my opinion.On average, per LS release we get:

• New map
• New story
• New legendary weapon
• Either a fractal or raid (or neither)
• New mastery
• Possibly something else totaly different

Seems alot, doesnt it. But in reality its kind of empty. The maps look amazing, but they are content wise empty. The legendaries are nice, but they aint new content, same with masteries (Bettle was an exception). New raids are great IMO, but they aint for every player, mainly aimed at the smaller part of the community. New fractals, nice addition, but the problem lies on their daily system, and due to that only doing it ONCE per week (10minutes of content basicaly), however with current mobspam trend and new instabilites they are also becoming less and less enjoyable.

Now, this is my opinion, but the main offender, the problem, is the actual story itself. ANet is starting to put waaaay to much effort into the story, into the story instances. In LS5, we can clearly see where all the effort went into. That is the final story instance, the dragon fight. Now.. why is this fight only a story instance ? Why is that whole map area limited to the story instance, speaking of which, why has this also become a trend ?? In EP1, we had Fahranur limited to story ONLY, in EP2, we had the top of the Inquest cube limited to story ONLY, EP3 we barely have access to Gandara outside of story (and even story instance barely scratches it).Why arent these areas used to make actual repetable content, instead of the one time story ? Why are there soo many story areas which we only visit ONCE ?? This has been happening since LS S3 (even season 2 actualy)... Glints lair (on multiple ocasions), White mantle camp place, Draconic Mons volcano, Caudecus Manor (debatable, due to dungeon), Abbadons Reliquary, and even more including all others which i mentioned before.
The focus on LS releases IMO needs to change, less focus on story, more focus on actual content, repeatable content. Kralkatorik fight could easily be a world event happening on the map, even if it ends in failure. It could easily work in the same way as Dragon's Stand.I would honestly like to see the LS production just stop for like, 2 LS releases, and instead focus on actual replayable content. New fractals, new raids, new maps (with 0 story) which purpose was purely having content. It would have a hard world boss (like TTW), tons of champions, events which focus on combat, and have a unique playmore "Vanquish", which would allow you to enter the map with a party, with whom you would have to clear the map (and gain unique rewards, depending on the map). These maps could fill empty world spaces (like between Sparkfly fen in Timberline falls) and wouldnt need to be that big. I just want to see something new honestly, something refreshing to do.

Now the sad part. This was only regarding the LS releases, the PvE. The end game content in this game is supposed to be: Open world PvE, Fractals, Raids, Dungeons (dead and forgotten), WvW and PvE. Except that.. WvW and PvP get basicaly almost 0 attention, none, nothing.When did these game modes get some actualy new content, new things to do. I am not speaking about rewards, rewards are not content, new rewards are not content, balance patch IS NOT content. Where is the "Do new things" content ?? The PvP has been capping circles for 6+1/2 years, we got some new maps, new skins, but in the end, we're doing the same thing all this time. Where are new game modes ? Oh right... custom games... WHY? Noone checks custom games anymore, why isnt there a queue for 2v2, even courtyard deathmath possibly. "Its not balanced around it", well, the balance is all over the place anyway, people wouldn't care much about that, as long as they actualy have something new to enjoy, something that is not stale.

Same thing about WvW, it hasnt recieved any proper major changes in years. The new pip system was nice, still is, but its only purpose is to actualy reward the WvW players with something, since the game mode didnt have any proper rewards compared to PvE beforehand. The last actual WvW content we got was... the EOTM Arena.. but thats EOTM(deadzone) so ill not include it. Soo, im guessing the other case would be... Desert borderlands few years ago, or OS Arena :Shrug: . Now.. what new content could WvW even get ? I myself am not sure, but i would like to see a new map. "But people dont want a new map". No, people dont want another Desert Borderlands, if ANet would create a new map in size and style of Alpine borderlands with different assets and objective positions, people would most likely love it. Here, balance has a bigger effect, since it actually affects how the game mode is played, so seing more balance changes would be nice. But oh well.. we will see next weeks announcment anyway, hopefully something new and not a weekend event (weekend events aint new content).

Now for the end, just to point out. Im speaking this from a perspective of a player that plays/played daily, multiple hours per day/week. I belive that those that dont play daily, who get just a few hours per week into the game still have more than enough to do, but everyone else? Not soo much. I guess at some point, when those get too bored, they become one of those, that only login for a week when new LS patch comes. But thats fine, since the main audience for the game are those + new players anyway. I assume that since those are the players that would most likely spend more money on gems. New players want the convinience, the cool skins, etc, while the players, that dont have much time to play, gem to gold conversion.

[Goettel.4389]

I'm still enjoying this "hell" after six years, but I sure would like more HoT like meta events in new LS.

[Vayne.8563]

Veteran player here, still enjoying it. I don't feel like I'm in hell. Are there annoyances? Sure there are. Just like in every single MMO in existence. But am I in hell? Not even close. I still enjoy the game daily.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Don't know if I am a 'Vet', but I've been playing since Betas, and I've yet to experience this 'hell'.I'd guess it's rather subjective.

[kharmin.7683]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:I'd guess it's rather subjective.Almost every thread in this forum is subjective.

[Danikat.8537]

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason WvW doesn't get much new content is that it never seems to be very popular. They added Edge of the Mists and apparently during beta testing with WvW guilds it was very popular, with really interesting gameplay using the special mechanics and the layout. Then it was released and WvW players barely touched it, and instead it became a place for PvE players to farm XP and karma, until WvW stopped awarding XP and other places became better karma farms, then it was largely abandoned.

They bought in new borderlands and people complained so much they had to remove them, then compromised by adding just 1 version of the new map, which always seems to be the last to fill up. (I know on my server some regular WvW players refuse point blank to ever go there, they'd rather sit in a queue unable to play their prefered mode at all than play on a slightly newer and less familiar map.) The Obsidian Sanctum arena was added, again because players kept asking for it, saying it would be a great place for guild battles, for 1v1 or for small skirmishes between servers...and again it never seems to get used. Maybe guild hall arenas took over here, but I've heard those are never used either, so I don't know.

I can't speak for Anet of course, but I know if I was faced with the choice of assigning my team a job like spending weeks or months designing a new map, which has to be done very carefully so the terrain doesn't give one side an unfair advantage, and which (based on every previous attempt) would get waves of criticism followed by very little, if any, use, or assigning them to do a very similar piece of work which will be used by large numbers of our customers for weeks or months and continue to be used by a smaller group indefinitely you'd have a very hard time convincing me the first one was the best use of our time.

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Don't know if I am a 'Vet', but I've been playing since Betas, and I've yet to experience this 'hell'.I'd guess it's rather subjective.

I think (as the OP said at the bottom) it's more to do with how much time you spend in-game and what you're interested in.

I've been playing since the betas too and I still feel like there's tons of stuff for me to do, but then I like the story and exploring maps, even the 'boring' ones without large meta-events and also like doing collections and other achievements without using guides. For example yesterday I was in Elon Riverlands reading the Flameseeker Prophecies in Augury Rock and when we got kicked out three ghosts were telling us to follow them, so instead of unlocking it yet again I decided to go do that and ended up 1/2 way across the map getting an achievement from Turai Ossa. On it's own that took maybe 20 minutes, but I can spend an entire evening doing things like that - playing the game, enjoying it and getting stuff done but not actually doing the thing I originally set out to do, so then I still have that to do later on.

Also I have 11 characters, so I can spend a lot of time replaying content, especially the story, and because each one is a different profession/elite spec (as well as different races and a roughly equal split between Orders) it's slightly different each time. I don't do Fractals often, or raids, but that's partially because I've always had other stuff to do so I've never really gotten around to doing it.

[Ashantara.8731]

I can relate to the OP.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

as a vet I don't care about new content, its the existing content that sucks that I wish would get better.

[Skotlex.7580]

There was a thread some time ago regarding how to improve map replay value. The Op here apparently wants much larger metas. I know that for some types of veteran players the new maps don't really hold much appeal unless they are gold-worthy farms, yet ANet just can't add a palawadan raid to every new map (even if just because of how much all these global timers would cause metas to overlap). Each LS brings new objectives or achievements, and a new legendary shouldn't be a small task either. Could some of these "veterans" that the OP refer to actually be the kind of gamer that just burns through content much faster than ANet can produce it?

The lack of PvP game-modes is a rather sad issue, and it boggles the mind how come ANet won't just add more types of PvP modes, you'd think that shouldn't take much work (at least compared to all else).

WvW, due to its design, is much more complicated to enhance / change, as another comment mentioned above, pretty much every addition to the mode has been ill received and eventually abandoned. That really crushes the drive to keep going forward. Although, from what I keep reading in the WvW forums, it'd be enough if balance were improved and we could bring an end to pirate ship meta.

with all that said, I wouldn't be against another map that plays like dragon's stand, but on a different reset time. :D

[perilisk.1874]

I don't have a problem with the effort they put into story, per se, but it would have a lot more replay value if they gave each story a "Challenge Mode" intended for structured 5-person group play, like dungeons, with decent daily rewards.

[Biff.5312]

While I agree with every point you make, as a (relatively) new player (3 years plus), I think any MMO has the same issue. 'End game' content can't keep players interesting if they've done it all and now have only new content to explore. They just can't keep up with that demand. I think the problem would indeed be mitigated if they acted on some of your suggestions, but it will never be 'fixed'.

[Raknar.4735]

@"perilisk.1874" said:I don't have a problem with the effort they put into story, per se, but it would have a lot more replay value if they gave each story a "Challenge Mode" intended for structured 5-person group play, like dungeons, with decent daily rewards.

That, or just give it a 1 player challenge mode with decent daily rewards, since we are missing rewarding solo player content.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

If you enjoy the game but have nothing to do, consider getting another account.

Old content to do over again, some that you've forgotten which makes it fresh. Gear struggles, leveling struggles, wvw ranking struggles, that 1st world completion, 10 actual AP for doing dailies, maxing your crafting, whooping platinum ranks on your scrub exotic geared scout :) and of course, a fresh clean block list for when they enivatbly send you salt.

[Cerioth.7062]

I love the veteran player hell!

[Nabbut.7480]

Why ANet doesn't makes new repeatable map content?It is simple: even existing world bosses are severely undermanned with exception of 4 starting map ones and those on the daily quest map.

[kharmin.7683]

@"paShadoWn.5723" said:Why ANet doesn't makes new repeatable map content?It is simple: even existing world bosses are severely undermanned with exception of 4 starting map ones and those on the daily quest map.

Who is to say what is repeatable and what is not? Content that some would like doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will become engaged with it and repeat it over and over? And when does this "new" repeatable content become boring (because it's the same thing again and again) to the point where players stop participating in it?

IMO, these are the difficult questions that ANet has to deal with when considering content replay-ability.

[Trise.2865]

To paraphrase the quote: If what this game is doing is wrong, hell, I don't want to be right.

[Neural.1824]

@Vayne.8563 said:Veteran player here, still enjoying it. I don't feel like I'm in hell. Are there annoyances? Sure there are. Just like in every single MMO in existence. But am I in hell? Not even close. I still enjoy the game daily.

Nothing personal meant here, but I think they'd have to deliberately attempt to destroy the game before you'd not enjoy it :) You're one of those people that the overall mechanics of the game are in harmony with, and that's a fine thing to have. :)

@ the OP: in regards to "hell", there are times I agree with you, but much as I disagree with a plethora of things about Arenanet, they are kind of stuck at this point with some mechanics and such that limit them on what they can provide.

I would love to see more collections similar to how we got the roller beetle. Solo-able, time consuming, and rewarding. If they ever introduce an underwater mount, it would be great if they could use that as a template. I love token based collections like that which people can take at their own pace by themselves. If the precursor crafting system was tweaked to be similar, removing the gold grind/endless farming aspect, it would provide a long time for me to just spend in game doing different things. However, this is also a great example of where Anet has to work within certain mechanics. The issue with this, primarily, is the economic structure they've chosen (scarcity) and how they need to attach a gold sink to just about everything in order to maintain a level of cash->gems->gold conversions (or, alternatively, player time spent in game).

Another problem with the chosen base mechanics is that veterans, with more and more experience and better skills, get much faster at finishing new content. We burn through it a lot faster because we're more attuned to how the system works. New-ish mechanics are introduced in different living story segments, which is nice (except the spinning room at the end of one of the living story segments. Great mechanic, but that was pretty crazy. :D (and not going to name it for spoilers sake)).

Vets also get a bit jaded in regards to micro-transactions. People who are not paying close attention and are new, are going to go a few months at least before they realize that a lot of those gemstore items that are "on sale" are basically always "on sale", and you'll likely never see them at the price that is crossed out. They also aren't going to catch on as fast that it's relatively easy to get 5 to 10 transmutation charges by doing map completion in the cities and a couple of the newbie zones, so purchasing gems to get extra transmutation charges is attractive. Newer people are simply more likely to buy gems to get content that has already been made. Because of this sort of thing, if accurate, Arenanet does have a solid reason to cater to new people. Veterans don't buy as much in general. We've already bought the harvesting tools we want, and the outfits, etc. We do not represent "new income potential" as much as brand new players. The devs may care about the veteran players on a personal level, but the numbers do not, and in order to stay in business, pay the bills, and please investors, they need to focus on the new crowd and on drawing in more players.

Developing more involved, deeper content for veterans, for the most part, would probably only benefit them in regards to player hours in game. As I said, a lot of vets have already bought the gemstore items they want, and we don't really represent as much monthly monetary income to the accountants as we do when there is a new expansion. It is not profitable, in that respect, to crank out veteran content that takes a lot of dev time, unless it's something that would also draw in brand new players who can pay for the game and experience that content with everyone else (in other words, an expansion).

There are a number of things that could be done if they had the time to invest into it. Players have made many suggestions on the forum over the years that would work, but Arenanet has to find the time to work on these things without it affecting the bottom line. One example would be to take that empty area between Bloodtide Coast/Sparkfly and Timberline falls and turn it into a "challenge" zone where the trash mobs are vets, and things scale up from there. People have been requesting a sort of open world "hard mode" for a long time. Admittedly, Lake Doric has something like that, but it's somewhat limited and the rewards for a hard mode zone would need to be adjusted to be more personal, so people wouldn't just zerg it for better loot.

Do I still enjoy the game, as a vet from 2012? .... sort of? I guess? I play mostly when I'm bored now. I have to gather something like 13,000 elder wood logs and a ton of mithril to complete Spero, and so on, and that's about all I spend my time doing. I add challenge to it by seeing how fast I can gather the nodes on a given path that I take. I bought a new character slot to do world completion again (because black lion keys), but beyond those things, I'm taking my time on the story, etc. Do I find the game boring and unrewarding overall? Yeah. Is it hell? No. Hell was getting 180deldrimor ingots for Dawn and Dusk. :)

[kharmin.7683]

@Neural.1824 said:I bought a new character slot to do world completion again (because black lion keys), but beyond those things, I'm taking my time on the story, etc.

Just curious: how many black lion keys does one collect for world completion? Would it have been the same cost as a character slot to have simply bought keys instead?

[mauried.5608]

You an summarise threads like this with "I want more stuff added to the game that I like , and I dont want stuff added that I dont like ."

[Vayne.8563]

@Neural.1824 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Veteran player here, still enjoying it. I don't feel like I'm in hell. Are there annoyances? Sure there are. Just like in every single MMO in existence. But am I in hell? Not even close. I still enjoy the game daily.

Nothing personal meant here, but I think they'd have to deliberately attempt to destroy the game before you'd not enjoy it :) You're one of those people that the overall mechanics of the game are in harmony with, and that's a fine thing to have. :)

@ the OP: in regards to "hell", there are times I agree with you, but much as I disagree with a plethora of things about Arenanet, they

are

kind of stuck at this point with some mechanics and such that limit them on what they can provide.

I would love to see more collections similar to how we got the roller beetle. Solo-able, time consuming, and rewarding. If they ever introduce an underwater mount, it would be great if they could use that as a template. I love token based collections like that which people can take at their own pace by themselves. If the precursor crafting system was tweaked to be similar, removing the gold grind/endless farming aspect, it would provide a long time for me to just spend in game doing different things. However, this is also a great example of where Anet has to work within certain mechanics. The issue with this, primarily, is the economic structure they've chosen (scarcity) and how they need to attach a gold sink to just about everything in order to maintain a level of cash->gems->gold conversions (or, alternatively, player time spent in game).

Another problem with the chosen base mechanics is that veterans, with more and more experience and better skills, get much faster at finishing new content. We burn through it a lot faster because we're more attuned to how the system works. New-ish mechanics are introduced in different living story segments, which is nice (except the spinning room at the end of one of the living story segments. Great mechanic, but that was pretty crazy. :D (and not going to name it for spoilers sake)).

Vets also get a bit jaded in regards to micro-transactions. People who are not paying close attention and are new, are going to go a few months at least before they realize that a lot of those gemstore items that are "on sale" are basically always "on sale", and you'll likely never see them at the price that is crossed out. They also aren't going to catch on as fast that it's relatively easy to get 5 to 10 transmutation charges by doing map completion in the cities and a couple of the newbie zones, so purchasing gems to get extra transmutation charges is attractive. Newer people are simply more likely to buy gems to get content that has already been made. Because of this sort of thing, if accurate, Arenanet does have a solid reason to cater to new people. Veterans don't buy as much in general. We've already bought the harvesting tools we want, and the outfits, etc. We do not represent "new income potential" as much as brand new players. The devs may care about the veteran players on a personal level, but the numbers do not, and in order to stay in business, pay the bills, and please investors, they need to focus on the new crowd and on drawing in more players.

Developing more involved, deeper content for veterans, for the most part, would probably only benefit them in regards to player hours in game. As I said, a lot of vets have already bought the gemstore items they want, and we don't really represent as much monthly monetary income to the accountants as we do when there is a new expansion. It is not profitable, in that respect, to crank out veteran content that takes a lot of dev time, unless it's something that would also draw in brand new players who can pay for the game and experience that content with everyone else (in other words, an expansion).

There are a number of things that could be done if they had the time to invest into it. Players have made many suggestions on the forum over the years that would work, but Arenanet has to find the time to work on these things without it affecting the bottom line. One example would be to take that empty area between Bloodtide Coast/Sparkfly and Timberline falls and turn it into a "challenge" zone where the trash mobs are vets, and things scale up from there. People have been requesting a sort of open world "hard mode" for a long time. Admittedly, Lake Doric has something like that, but it's somewhat limited and the rewards for a hard mode zone would need to be adjusted to be more personal, so people wouldn't just zerg it for better loot.

Do I still enjoy the game, as a vet from 2012? .... sort of? I guess? I play mostly when I'm bored now. I have to gather something like 13,000 elder wood logs and a ton of mithril to complete Spero, and so on, and that's about all I spend my time doing. I add challenge to it by seeing how fast I can gather the nodes on a given path that I take. I bought a new character slot to do world completion again (because black lion keys), but beyond those things, I'm taking my time on the story, etc. Do I find the game boring and unrewarding overall? Yeah. Is it hell? No. Hell was getting 180deldrimor ingots for Dawn and Dusk. :)

You'd have trouble proving there aren't more people like me than people different from me as well. I have a guild full of people who aren't feeling some of the stuff you say, as in jaded by the cash shop.

Yes the game fits my criteria for what an MMO needs to be, but then, I'm not a single guy alone in a room in Kalamazoo. I'm part of a demographic that hasn't been served by other games for a long time for a lot of reasons. That demographic has a shape and a size. Some people are more toward the edges of it and don't like everything, some are more perfectly suited to it.

There are other games that could have been what I wanted, Rift, for example when it first came out, but they made design decisions that clearly didn't take into account my play style. But make no mistake. My play style isn't me alone. I've met plenty of people over the years with my play style too, who are also vets. I've said this before and I'll sai it again. There are many different demographics within this game that all want different stuff and some of them are always going to be disappointed. However, because some of those demographics want stuff that's either not realistic, or not in keeping with the dev's own vision, or simply too much like what other games offer that would make it harder to compete, there are reasons why the game is the way it is.

Take raiders. A lot of raiders aren't happy right now. They don't get enough raids. They don't have hard enough raids. And they are very vocal in their complaints. But I don't believe they represent as big a demographic as casual people who work jobs, who don't mind spending some bucks in the cash shop, who are looking for the same sort of things I'm looking for.

Again, the game isn't perfect and I have my complaints about it, but that doesn't make it hell and that doesn't mean it hasn't found a core stable audience who plays it like I do, or other audiences who enjoy it for different reasons. Saying I like the game but that's just me implies I'm the only one. I don't really think that's the case.

[kharmin.7683]

Yes. A thousand times yes, what @"Vayne.8563" said. I wish I could "thumbs-up" that post more than once. :)

[Neural.1824]

@"Vayne.8563" said:Again, the game isn't perfect and I have my complaints about it, but that doesn't make it hell and that doesn't mean it hasn't found a core stable audience who plays it like I do, or other audiences who enjoy it for different reasons. Saying I like the game but that's just me implies I'm the only one. I don't really think that's the case.

A fair point, but I did not state that you were unique some how. Thus the phrase "one of those people".

[Ayrilana.1396]

Well many vets (not all of them) choose to burn through new content in a matter of days, it’s technically their own fault for not having enough to do. It’s practically impossible to provide enough content so satisfy those type of players. More grind could be added but that’d just likely result in the same number of complaints from that group of players as well as others.

[kharmin.7683]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Well vets choose to burn through new content in a matter of days, it’s technically their own fault for not having enough to do. It’s practically impossible to provide enough content so satisfy those type of players. More grind could be added but that’d just likely result in the same number of complaints from that group of players as well as others.

Agreed, but let's not paint all of us veterans with such a broad brush. :) Some of us are still working through PS, LS and other fun stuff.