WvW commanders/guilds kicking non-meta classes.

[Chaba.5410]

@steki.1478 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Ranger in a zerg is just wasting your time, u gonna be killed before others, and, being single target class u wont get much kill scores no matter how good the zerg are.

Weird, as boonbeast I outsurvive everyone except Firebrands and Scrappers, and in fact I outsurvive them too because I can get away.

I'm not single target and get plenty of kills in the backline and because I got away I continue to scout the enemy zerg while all those meta pukes run back.

Statements that ranger can't bring what meta classes do to the blob are pretty accurate, but some of this nonsense....

come on, the cry about "snif commander dont invite-me" come almost from ppl that just wanna pew pew with longbow. if he were someone with superior skill of the class, he would not be in such a cry.

There is a viable slb zerg build, it's just very unintuitive. We have two that run with us regularly and out damage scourges

Is that in open field fights or on

dps golems

tower/keep lords?

(Seriously though, in open field fights if your group isn't coordinated then the scourge DPS will indeed be lower so it is difficult to take your anecdote as good evidence.)

As is the anecdote that by simply logging on a meta class someone automatically got more useful.

It doesn't require anecdotes to see that a dps scourge with shades up can hit 10 targets versus a ranger's skills doing damage to only 5. That's just understanding game mechanics (and why druids with their 10 target spirits are more useful in pve raids over support scourges).

Thats true but in all fairness, Scourge damage is just pressure, nobody is really dying to to their AoEs (at least nobody decent). Not saying it isn't vital to have pressure, but lets be honest the downs sre generated by Rev and Weaver spikes, with Rev in particular 5 targets. So target cap isn't everything.

Removing protection and applying vulnerability and cripple plays huge role though. That's not something that weavers and heralds can do without scourge.

In addition to what Steki said, scourge is providing a lot of boon corrupts as well which help the weavers and heralds cut through defenses. This synergy is the nature of meta group compositions. A group comprised of just weavers and heralds without scourges is going to have a harder time generating downs.

[Tinnel.4369]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Ranger in a zerg is just wasting your time, u gonna be killed before others, and, being single target class u wont get much kill scores no matter how good the zerg are.

Weird, as boonbeast I outsurvive everyone except Firebrands and Scrappers, and in fact I outsurvive them too because I can get away.

I'm not single target and get plenty of kills in the backline and because I got away I continue to scout the enemy zerg while all those meta pukes run back.

Statements that ranger can't bring what meta classes do to the blob are pretty accurate, but some of this nonsense....

come on, the cry about "snif commander dont invite-me" come almost from ppl that just wanna pew pew with longbow. if he were someone with superior skill of the class, he would not be in such a cry.

There is a viable slb zerg build, it's just very unintuitive. We have two that run with us regularly and out damage scourges

Is that in open field fights or on

dps golems

tower/keep lords?

(Seriously though, in open field fights if your group isn't coordinated then the scourge DPS will indeed be lower so it is difficult to take your anecdote as good evidence.)

As is the anecdote that by simply logging on a meta class someone automatically got more useful.

It doesn't require anecdotes to see that a dps scourge with shades up can hit 10 targets versus a ranger's skills doing damage to only 5. That's just understanding game mechanics (and why druids with their 10 target spirits are more useful in pve raids over support scourges).

And it doesn't take much imagination to see that someone that doesn't know how to use a dps scourge is worthless.

In other words, a player who would also be worthless on every other class because they don't take the time to learn and improve whatever class they are playing. No reason to let them into a squad on ranger either.

No, in other words "get on a meta class or else" just demonstrates the narrow, boring, repetitive view of the meta mentality.

As I've said, the meta undoubtedly serves its purpose and non meta undoubtedly are suboptimal in a one to one comparison. However, that comparison does not take a players gear or ability into account. Commanders should command however they like, no doubt. Likewise, players should play how they like.

It is my opinion that if a commander needs a full 50 meta classes to get a job done, well.... Further, if they can't make use of players who are proficient with non meta classes to perform non blob tasks and/or refuse them unused spots simply on the premise of not being a meta class then they're narrow, boring, and repetitive.

[Chaba.5410]

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Ranger in a zerg is just wasting your time, u gonna be killed before others, and, being single target class u wont get much kill scores no matter how good the zerg are.

Weird, as boonbeast I outsurvive everyone except Firebrands and Scrappers, and in fact I outsurvive them too because I can get away.

I'm not single target and get plenty of kills in the backline and because I got away I continue to scout the enemy zerg while all those meta pukes run back.

Statements that ranger can't bring what meta classes do to the blob are pretty accurate, but some of this nonsense....

come on, the cry about "snif commander dont invite-me" come almost from ppl that just wanna pew pew with longbow. if he were someone with superior skill of the class, he would not be in such a cry.

There is a viable slb zerg build, it's just very unintuitive. We have two that run with us regularly and out damage scourges

Is that in open field fights or on

dps golems

tower/keep lords?

(Seriously though, in open field fights if your group isn't coordinated then the scourge DPS will indeed be lower so it is difficult to take your anecdote as good evidence.)

As is the anecdote that by simply logging on a meta class someone automatically got more useful.

It doesn't require anecdotes to see that a dps scourge with shades up can hit 10 targets versus a ranger's skills doing damage to only 5. That's just understanding game mechanics (and why druids with their 10 target spirits are more useful in pve raids over support scourges).

And it doesn't take much imagination to see that someone that doesn't know how to use a dps scourge is worthless.

In other words, a player who would also be worthless on every other class because they don't take the time to learn and improve whatever class they are playing. No reason to let them into a squad on ranger either.

No, in other words "get on a meta class or else" just demonstrates the narrow, boring, repetitive view of the metal mentality.

As I've said, the meta undoubtedly serves its purpose and non meta undoubtedly are suboptimal in a one to one comparison. However, that comparison does not take a players gear or ability into account. Commanders should command however they like, no doubt. Likewise, players should play how they like.

It is my opinion that if a commander needs a full 50 meta classes to get a job done, well.... Further, if they can't make use of players who are proficient with non meta classes to perform non blob tasks and/or refuse them unused spots simply on the premise of not being a meta class then they're narrow, boring, and repetitive.

LOL OK. Commanders are narrow, boring, and repetitive if they are fighting against another server's 50 meta class squad and aren't giving squad spots to people doing non-blob tasks.

BTW, I was responding to someone else talking about their soulbeasts vs their scourges. They said nothing about running 50 man squads nor the skill level of their players nor the situations when their soulbeasts are getting more dps than their scourges nor whether their soulbeasts are doing nonblob tasks. Player skill level has nothing to do with whether skills hit 10 targets or 5. Heck, you don't even know if the reason their soulbeasts did so much damage is because of conditions/boon strips applied by their scourges nor even if the person was talking about dps or total damage over time. You can continue to ignore game mechanics and not convince anyone of anything.

[Lonecap.4105]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Ranger in a zerg is just wasting your time, u gonna be killed before others, and, being single target class u wont get much kill scores no matter how good the zerg are.

Weird, as boonbeast I outsurvive everyone except Firebrands and Scrappers, and in fact I outsurvive them too because I can get away.

I'm not single target and get plenty of kills in the backline and because I got away I continue to scout the enemy zerg while all those meta pukes run back.

Statements that ranger can't bring what meta classes do to the blob are pretty accurate, but some of this nonsense....

come on, the cry about "snif commander dont invite-me" come almost from ppl that just wanna pew pew with longbow. if he were someone with superior skill of the class, he would not be in such a cry.

There is a viable slb zerg build, it's just very unintuitive. We have two that run with us regularly and out damage scourges

Is that in open field fights or on

dps golems

tower/keep lords?

(Seriously though, in open field fights if your group isn't coordinated then the scourge DPS will indeed be lower so it is difficult to take your anecdote as good evidence.)

As is the anecdote that by simply logging on a meta class someone automatically got more useful.

It doesn't require anecdotes to see that a dps scourge with shades up can hit 10 targets versus a ranger's skills doing damage to only 5. That's just understanding game mechanics (and why druids with their 10 target spirits are more useful in pve raids over support scourges).

Thats true but in all fairness, Scourge damage is just pressure, nobody is really dying to to their AoEs (at least nobody decent). Not saying it isn't vital to have pressure, but lets be honest the downs sre generated by Rev and Weaver spikes, with Rev in particular 5 targets. So target cap isn't everything.

Removing protection and applying vulnerability and cripple plays huge role though. That's not something that weavers and heralds can do without scourge.

In addition to what Steki said, scourge is providing a lot of boon corrupts as well which help the weavers and heralds cut through defenses. This synergy is the nature of meta group compositions. A group comprised of just weavers and heralds without scourges is going to have a harder time generating downs.

I said it was vital to have pressure. And I know Scourge contributes all of those things. But we're just talking about damage at the moment. Scourges provide pressure, but you need Spikes to create downs. I'm not saying one is more important than the other - I'm actually saying they work in tandem.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Is this thread still going? I thought it ended somewhere back on page 2 when the OP got it and said how he solved his problem.

The whole thing is ridiculously simple:

A. Meta is there for a commander to lead, it is classes that thrives ontop of the commander and it allows you to funnel inexperienced players through classes with low skill floors. In the current meta, commanders (or experienced players in the squad) do babysit those classes to a rather substantial degree (as the classes they play themselves do not necessarily thrive at current meta ranges).

B. Non-meta classes usually do not want to stand on a commander, they assume some self-governance so the people who run them are generally not in the squad because they do not need the squad and the squad does not need them. They have friends and build parties. There are many situations where parties of non-meta classes can turn the tide of a fight. They are then however usually in the hands of experienced players in tight-knit social groups.

Most of this discussion comes from players who are inexperienced B but want to do A, or players who are inexperienced A and do not notice successful examples of B. If commanders get a higher degree of good players around them they often do things that are not current meta either with the use of A or B.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:Is this thread still going? I thought it ended somewhere back on page 2 when the OP got it and said how he solved his problem.

The whole thing is ridiculously simple:

A. Meta is there for a commander to lead, it is classes that thrives ontop of the commander and it allows you to funnel inexperienced players through classes with low skill floors. In the current meta, commanders (or experienced players in the squad) do babysit those classes to a rather substantial degree (as the classes they play themselves do not necessarily thrive at current meta ranges).

B. Non-meta classes usually do not want to stand on a commander, they assume some self-governance so the people who run them are generally not in the squad because they do not need the squad and the squad does not need them. They have friends and build parties. There are many situations where parties of non-meta classes can turn the tide of a fight. They are then however usually in the hands of experienced players in tight-knit social groups.

Most of this discussion comes from players who are inexperienced B but want to do A, or players who are inexperienced A and do not notice successful examples of B. If commanders get a higher degree of good players around them they often do things that are not current meta either with the use of A or B.

This is a pretty good breakdown of it. A good player can make just about anything work to an acceptable level, but meta classes and builds have the best output in relation to player skill. that's why they're meta

I'm saying that i'll take anyone, regardless of class, if they're performing acceptably. If your slb build doesn't show up in any useful metric, you don't get a party slot though i probably won't kick from squad if we aren't full. If the slb build is getting decent output though, i'll happily stick you in a party slot over a new player running a meta build poorly =D

[ArchonWing.9480]

I'd take a new player running a meta build poorly over a stubborn older player that dies on contact on some silly build. =p

And FYI, I was pew pewing down people's mounts trying to get to the zerg with soulbeast this morning

[subversiontwo.7501]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:A good player can make just about anything work to an acceptable level, but meta classes and builds have the best output in relation to player skill.I'm saying that i'll take anyone, regardless of class, if they're performing acceptably.@ArchonWing said:I'd take a new player running a meta build poorly over a stubborn older player that dies on contact on some silly build. =pI'm quoting you together since your replies are two sides of a coin.

Sure, a more experienced player may generally do well on anything but also will - in a squad - perform better or have better output on a class fit for the squad, as Risen says. And new player may also do better on a build fit for a squad than an old player who randomly snowflakes (new-old is a better paradigm than in/experienced in that regard), as Archon said.

However, I'm not really talking about that. I'm more so referring to how, let's say players from a "good" GvG guild, if/when they play with a pickup squad. Some may enter into the group and help carry that group. Easily as common however is that they will be the people who may piece together something like a quad-DD/support party and go wreak absolute havoc on an opposing squad if you have two middle-ground tags hesitantly manoeuvering pirateships.

Adding parties like that to a meta base can be much stronger than an all-meta squad, it is just that they have much higher skill floors both in terms of classes/roles and organisation. Players who are inexperienced but show up on such classes will not be able to function in such parties for any foreseeable future whereas they can step into a meta squad on a meta class and learn the game mode from there while contributing fundamentally from the get-go.

That is also why meta is meta and not because experienced players would somehow do better on the meta classes. In fact, the argument is rather that some builds do not only have higher skill floors but also higher skill roofs. If you have some very good players they may actually contribute more to a squad comming on such non-meta builds than comming on five more meta builds, both because they can punch above the roof of the meta build but also because they can give their commander a tool that the other commander does not have - a tool more valuable than another five players on meta builds.

Ed.

Instead of trying to explain it, have a look at some examples of what I'm trying to show.

Let's take Lays as an example. They have been one of the best guilds in Europe for the past few years.

They have some good examples of DD gameplay. DD is not meta.

Then you may think, it is not scaling up to zerg/blob fights. Yet, look at their damage meter here.

Go back a few years and look at the 2016 tournament final. Do you see the Druid in the party?

Druids may have take some swings since then but what they do is still fundamentally the same. It is just the people in general have not seen how you can potentially adapt and scale it up to full squad scale. That doesn't mean that there isn't potential in it to use in various ways.

 

[RisenHowl.2419]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:A good player can make just about anything work to an acceptable level, but meta classes and builds have the best output in relation to player skill.I'm saying that i'll take anyone, regardless of class, if they're performing acceptably.@ArchonWing said:I'd take a new player running a meta build poorly over a stubborn older player that dies on contact on some silly build. =pI'm quoting you together since your replies are two sides of a coin.

Sure, a more experienced player may generally do well on anything but also will - in a squad - perform better or have better output on a class fit for the squad, as Risen says. And new player may also do better on a build fit for a squad than an old player who randomly snowflakes (new-old is a better paradigm than in/experienced in that regard), as Archon said.

However, I'm not really talking about that. I'm more so referring to how, let's say players from a "good" GvG guild, if/when they play with a pickup squad. Some may enter into the group and help carry that group. Easily as common however is that they will be the people who may piece together something like a quad-DD/support party and go wreak absolute havoc on an opposing squad if you have two middle-ground tags hesitantly manoeuvering pirateships.

Adding parties like that to a meta base can be much stronger than an all-meta squad, it is just that they have much higher skill floors both in terms of classes/roles and organisation. Players who are inexperienced but show up on such classes will not be able to function in such parties for any foreseeable future whereas they can step into a meta squad on a meta class and learn the game mode from there while contributing fundamentally from the get-go.

That is also why meta is meta and not because experienced players would somehow do better on the meta classes. In fact, the argument is rather that some builds do not only have higher skill floors but also higher skill roofs. If you have some very good players they may actually contribute more to a squad comming on such non-meta builds than comming on five more meta builds, both because they can punch above the roof of the meta build but also because they can give their commander a tool that the other commander does not have - a tool more valuable than another five players on meta builds.

Ed.

Instead of trying to explain it, have a look at some examples of what I'm trying to show.

Let's take Lays as an example. They have been one of the best guilds in Europe for the past few years.

They have some good examples of DD gameplay. DD is not meta.

Then you may think, it is not scaling up to zerg/blob fights. Yet, look at their damage meter here.

Go back a few years and look at the 2016 tournament final. Do you see the Druid in the party?

Druids may have take some swings since then but what they do is still fundamentally the same. It is just the people in general have not seen how you can potentially adapt and scale it up to full squad scale. That doesn't mean that there isn't potential in it to use in various ways.

 

agreed. that's the whole reason a good weaver or staff DD is so hard to let go of lol

[ArchonWing.9480]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:A good player can make just about anything work to an acceptable level, but meta classes and builds have the best output in relation to player skill.I'm saying that i'll take anyone, regardless of class, if they're performing acceptably.@ArchonWing said:I'd take a new player running a meta build poorly over a stubborn older player that dies on contact on some silly build. =pI'm quoting you together since your replies are two sides of a coin.

Sure, a more experienced player may generally do well on anything but also will - in a squad - perform better or have better output on a class fit for the squad, as Risen says. And new player may also do better on a build fit for a squad than an old player who randomly snowflakes (new-old is a better paradigm than in/experienced in that regard), as Archon said.

However, I'm not really talking about that. I'm more so referring to how, let's say players from a "good" GvG guild, if/when they play with a pickup squad. Some may enter into the group and help carry that group. Easily as common however is that they will be the people who may piece together something like a quad-DD/support party and go wreak absolute havoc on an opposing squad if you have two middle-ground tags hesitantly manoeuvering pirateships.

Adding parties like that to a meta base can be much stronger than an all-meta squad, it is just that they have much higher skill floors both in terms of classes/roles and organisation. Players who are inexperienced but show up on such classes will not be able to function in such parties for any foreseeable future whereas they can step into a meta squad on a meta class and learn the game mode from there while contributing fundamentally from the get-go.

That is also why meta is meta and not because experienced players would somehow do better on the meta classes. In fact, the argument is rather that some builds do not only have higher skill floors but also higher skill roofs. If you have some very good players they may actually contribute more to a squad comming on such non-meta builds than comming on five more meta builds, both because they can punch above the roof of the meta build but also because they can give their commander a tool that the other commander does not have - a tool more valuable than another five players on meta builds.

Ed.

Instead of trying to explain it, have a look at some examples of what I'm trying to show.

Let's take Lays as an example. They have been one of the best guilds in Europe for the past few years.

They have some good examples of DD gameplay. DD is not meta.

Then you may think, it is not scaling up to zerg/blob fights. Yet, look at their damage meter here.

Go back a few years and look at the 2016 tournament final. Do you see the Druid in the party?

Druids may have take some swings since then but what they do is still fundamentally the same. It is just the people in general have not seen how you can potentially adapt and scale it up to full squad scale. That doesn't mean that there isn't potential in it to use in various ways.

 

I actually agree with you, but it's just that players like that are so rare that you can assume that some rando coming in is certainly not in this category and more likely to be akin to the "commander must serve me". I think when you are clearly carrying though, you just won't be kicked regardless of what you're on because this kind of performance tends to be very visible. Now, there are certainly very insular and mediocre guilds/commanders that blindly follow some dogma and will just ignore all facts in favor of the circlewank but then again the best players around often have some creative folks in their midst-- it's how the meta moves after all.

It's why I suggest to people to get established first, and then maybe they'll be more open to whatever you are trying to do.

But I'd also like to say that with the power creep and hard counters that exist in the game, that niches have been stamped out and the room for creativity is pretty low. The average skill level opponents is also too low to bother with it besides the memes too. The game as a whole breeds that sort of mediocity, so while I do understand what you are saying, I'd also want to make note of why people just aren't willing to look outside the box. If the game were actually more competitive, I think you'd see people more open to seeking an edge. But now, it's just to find the easiest way to roll over some disorganized blobs and pat each other on the back for it while blaming pugs when it doesn't go.

[Voltekka.2375]

"Hey, look! One of the best eu guilds run offmeta stuff and theyre great, I do the same and i get kicked! Wvw toxic"Comparing one of the best guilds to your average pug... Yeah you can see how it goes...

[jpsssss.7530]

Find yourself a roaming group. Groups of 5 can work better in desert BL than zergs if they have map awareness. Or get a tag toon and tag up yourself. You'd be surprised what you can do with 20 PUGs.

[nthmetal.9652]

The fact that YOU are bad at all classes [...]

My opinion is: When offering an open squad, that should not be part of the discussion. I do fully understand the demand for good players, however open tag suggests an open and welcoming atmosphere, also tailored to people willing to learn, get better or simply have fun. If people have fun, a good number of them will automatically get better. This might not have been the aim of the quoted post, but phrases like that sound like "quality gates" being put on players.

An open atmosphere will also lead to WvW not losing, but hopefully winning players.

More specific squads also have their place, and tools to support that. Closed tags and / or LFG and clear advertising / communication in squad message should be enough to make it clear to everyone, what the goal of this squad is.

[steki.1478]

@"nthmetal.9652" said:

The fact that YOU are bad at all classes [...]

My opinion is: When offering an open squad, that should not be part of the discussion. I do fully understand the demand for good players, however open tag suggests an open and welcoming atmosphere, also tailored to people willing to learn, get better or simply have fun. If people have fun, a good number of them will automatically get better. This might not have been the aim of the quoted post, but phrases like that sound like "quality gates" being put on players.

An open atmosphere will also lead to WvW not losing, but hopefully winning players.

More specific squads also have their place, and tools to support that. Closed tags and / or LFG and clear advertising / communication in squad message should be enough to make it clear to everyone, what the goal of this squad is.

It's open for both joining and kicking. No one uses lfg in wvw because it serves no purpose.

[steki.1478]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:There's nothing I can do about a commander's choice of who stays in the group or who gets kicked. The argument i'm seeing here from certain individuals is, "Play what the commander wants you to play." That's what i'm seeing here. That's the argument that is being placed forth on the plate and shoved into everyone's face. I'm not going to be tactful about the argument, and i'm not going to continue it, considering that you all pretty much missed the point entirely. Certain classes or builds will be kicked automatically, depending on the actions of the Commander his or her self. I'm stating, that I don't care or give a kitten about that situation any more, and I havn't really given a kitten about it in many years now. I was offering sympathy to the poster in general above who asked if anyone had similar incidents of what he went through. My answer was yes. It happened to me. It still occurs to me, BUT, I just go with the flow. IF i'm part of the group and accepted, then I follow the commands, use what is called for active attack or defense. I watch for opportunities. IF I am kicked from the group for the CLASS I chose, or the BUILD I chose, or the WEAPONS I choose to play on the field, so be it. And my finalized answer was, even if you are kicked, if your NOT playing what is needed or wanted, nothing is STOPPING you from running besides the group or going off to do WHATEVER you want. There's no need to be put down, put out, and let out. The problem isn't with you. The problem is with the commander who firmly believes that your class is useless to the group, or your build is useless to the group, or that your weapons are useless to the group. Now I'm tired of listening to the people above saying, "Well, you'll have an easier time of it, if you run what your told to run." OHHH GEEE WILLICKERS, what's the point of even doing that. I don't paly Warrior, I Don't play Revanant, I don't play Necromancer or Scourge, I don't play Thief, I don't play Guardian or Firebrand, because I PERSONALLY DON'T LIKE THEM !~ I don't care to play them, I don't find them any fun. I don't find them any use to my personal playstyle. In fact I die more on those classes than I do on my Ranger. Why!? Because I like ranger, I like my build, I like the weapons I choose, and the traits I chose. The few times I SWITCHED to what was "meta" I got burned into the ground faster than a firecracker on the 4th of July. And don't be throwing that "L2P" kitten in my face either. I played them, I just don't like the mechanics. "You have to do this skill first, then this other skill second, and then you have to weapon swap and use this skill third...." Ohmygod, it's like the instruction manual from hell on how to have fun, but NOT really have fun at all...LEARN YOUR ROTATIONS....EVEN if you ran what the kitten commander wants to run, you gotta play the rotations. LOL! This argument is four fricken years OLD. You people BORE me to death on this argument. I swear I feel like falling asleep, but I roll my eyes at the screen as I listen to the argument in discord, or read it in forums. Play what you want. When you want to. And to hell with the rest of the player base. If your the loose cannon of a Pug group then no worries. If your part of a Guild that says they'll kick your kitten out if you don't toe the line...that's still your choice. So here's the summary. If you get kicked out of a zerg, "Take it easy", and keep trucking.

Metas exist for a reason. For example, paragraphs are also meta. You don't need them if you're able to convey thoughts and ideas in a creative manner, but in this case, well, I'm afraid it probably illustrates your issue way more than you think. The reason behind most people not wanting to read what you just wrote is pretty much the exact same reason why most people aren't going to want you in a squad. And this will be true regardless of actual skill. I'm not saying that whatever you wrote here is bad or wrong, because that's not true. But take a moment to read what you wrote out loud and decide if people are really going to take some time out for you.

Oof

[elkyn.3761]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:There's nothing I can do about a commander's choice of who stays in the group or who gets kicked. The argument i'm seeing here from certain individuals is, "Play what the commander wants you to play." That's what i'm seeing here. That's the argument that is being placed forth on the plate and shoved into everyone's face. I'm not going to be tactful about the argument, and i'm not going to continue it, considering that you all pretty much missed the point entirely. Certain classes or builds will be kicked automatically, depending on the actions of the Commander his or her self. I'm stating, that I don't care or give a kitten about that situation any more, and I havn't really given a kitten about it in many years now. I was offering sympathy to the poster in general above who asked if anyone had similar incidents of what he went through. My answer was yes. It happened to me. It still occurs to me, BUT, I just go with the flow. IF i'm part of the group and accepted, then I follow the commands, use what is called for active attack or defense. I watch for opportunities. IF I am kicked from the group for the CLASS I chose, or the BUILD I chose, or the WEAPONS I choose to play on the field, so be it. And my finalized answer was, even if you are kicked, if your NOT playing what is needed or wanted, nothing is STOPPING you from running besides the group or going off to do WHATEVER you want. There's no need to be put down, put out, and let out. The problem isn't with you. The problem is with the commander who firmly believes that your class is useless to the group, or your build is useless to the group, or that your weapons are useless to the group. Now I'm tired of listening to the people above saying, "Well, you'll have an easier time of it, if you run what your told to run." OHHH GEEE WILLICKERS, what's the point of even doing that. I don't paly Warrior, I Don't play Revanant, I don't play Necromancer or Scourge, I don't play Thief, I don't play Guardian or Firebrand, because I PERSONALLY DON'T LIKE THEM !~ I don't care to play them, I don't find them any fun. I don't find them any use to my personal playstyle. In fact I die more on those classes than I do on my Ranger. Why!? Because I like ranger, I like my build, I like the weapons I choose, and the traits I chose. The few times I SWITCHED to what was "meta" I got burned into the ground faster than a firecracker on the 4th of July. And don't be throwing that "L2P" kitten in my face either. I played them, I just don't like the mechanics. "You have to do this skill first, then this other skill second, and then you have to weapon swap and use this skill third...." Ohmygod, it's like the instruction manual from hell on how to have fun, but NOT really have fun at all...LEARN YOUR ROTATIONS....EVEN if you ran what the kitten commander wants to run, you gotta play the rotations. LOL! This argument is four fricken years OLD. You people BORE me to death on this argument. I swear I feel like falling asleep, but I roll my eyes at the screen as I listen to the argument in discord, or read it in forums. Play what you want. When you want to. And to hell with the rest of the player base. If your the loose cannon of a Pug group then no worries. If your part of a Guild that says they'll kick your kitten out if you don't toe the line...that's still your choice. So here's the summary. If you get kicked out of a zerg, "Take it easy", and keep trucking.

Metas exist for a reason. For example, paragraphs are also meta. You don't need them if you're able to convey thoughts and ideas in a creative manner, but in this case, well, I'm afraid it probably illustrates your issue way more than you think. The reason behind most people not wanting to read what you just wrote is pretty much the exact same reason why most people aren't going to want you in a squad. And this will be true regardless of actual skill. I'm not saying that whatever you wrote here is bad or wrong, because that's not true. But take a moment to read what you wrote out loud and decide if people are really going to take some time out for you.

I read it. I think he makes a good point.

[Chaba.5410]

@elkyn.3761 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:There's nothing I can do about a commander's choice of who stays in the group or who gets kicked. The argument i'm seeing here from certain individuals is, "Play what the commander wants you to play." That's what i'm seeing here. That's the argument that is being placed forth on the plate and shoved into everyone's face. I'm not going to be tactful about the argument, and i'm not going to continue it, considering that you all pretty much missed the point entirely. Certain classes or builds will be kicked automatically, depending on the actions of the Commander his or her self. I'm stating, that I don't care or give a kitten about that situation any more, and I havn't really given a kitten about it in many years now. I was offering sympathy to the poster in general above who asked if anyone had similar incidents of what he went through. My answer was yes. It happened to me. It still occurs to me, BUT, I just go with the flow. IF i'm part of the group and accepted, then I follow the commands, use what is called for active attack or defense. I watch for opportunities. IF I am kicked from the group for the CLASS I chose, or the BUILD I chose, or the WEAPONS I choose to play on the field, so be it. And my finalized answer was, even if you are kicked, if your NOT playing what is needed or wanted, nothing is STOPPING you from running besides the group or going off to do WHATEVER you want. There's no need to be put down, put out, and let out. The problem isn't with you. The problem is with the commander who firmly believes that your class is useless to the group, or your build is useless to the group, or that your weapons are useless to the group. Now I'm tired of listening to the people above saying, "Well, you'll have an easier time of it, if you run what your told to run." OHHH GEEE WILLICKERS, what's the point of even doing that. I don't paly Warrior, I Don't play Revanant, I don't play Necromancer or Scourge, I don't play Thief, I don't play Guardian or Firebrand, because I PERSONALLY DON'T LIKE THEM !~ I don't care to play them, I don't find them any fun. I don't find them any use to my personal playstyle. In fact I die more on those classes than I do on my Ranger. Why!? Because I like ranger, I like my build, I like the weapons I choose, and the traits I chose. The few times I SWITCHED to what was "meta" I got burned into the ground faster than a firecracker on the 4th of July. And don't be throwing that "L2P" kitten in my face either. I played them, I just don't like the mechanics. "You have to do this skill first, then this other skill second, and then you have to weapon swap and use this skill third...." Ohmygod, it's like the instruction manual from hell on how to have fun, but NOT really have fun at all...LEARN YOUR ROTATIONS....EVEN if you ran what the kitten commander wants to run, you gotta play the rotations. LOL! This argument is four fricken years OLD. You people BORE me to death on this argument. I swear I feel like falling asleep, but I roll my eyes at the screen as I listen to the argument in discord, or read it in forums. Play what you want. When you want to. And to hell with the rest of the player base. If your the loose cannon of a Pug group then no worries. If your part of a Guild that says they'll kick your kitten out if you don't toe the line...that's still your choice. So here's the summary. If you get kicked out of a zerg, "Take it easy", and keep trucking.

Metas exist for a reason. For example, paragraphs are also meta. You don't need them if you're able to convey thoughts and ideas in a creative manner, but in this case, well, I'm afraid it probably illustrates your issue way more than you think. The reason behind most people not wanting to read what you just wrote is pretty much the exact same reason why most people aren't going to want you in a squad. And this will be true regardless of actual skill. I'm not saying that whatever you wrote here is bad or wrong, because that's not true. But take a moment to read what you wrote out loud and decide if people are really going to take some time out for you.

I read it. I think he makes a good point.

I didn't. I read maybe the first few sentences then quit. My eyes thanked me.

[Zexanima.7851]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:There's nothing I can do about a commander's choice of who stays in the group or who gets kicked. The argument i'm seeing here from certain individuals is, "Play what the commander wants you to play." That's what i'm seeing here. That's the argument that is being placed forth on the plate and shoved into everyone's face. I'm not going to be tactful about the argument, and i'm not going to continue it, considering that you all pretty much missed the point entirely. Certain classes or builds will be kicked automatically, depending on the actions of the Commander his or her self. I'm stating, that I don't care or give a kitten about that situation any more, and I havn't really given a kitten about it in many years now. I was offering sympathy to the poster in general above who asked if anyone had similar incidents of what he went through. My answer was yes. It happened to me. It still occurs to me, BUT, I just go with the flow. IF i'm part of the group and accepted, then I follow the commands, use what is called for active attack or defense. I watch for opportunities. IF I am kicked from the group for the CLASS I chose, or the BUILD I chose, or the WEAPONS I choose to play on the field, so be it. And my finalized answer was, even if you are kicked, if your NOT playing what is needed or wanted, nothing is STOPPING you from running besides the group or going off to do WHATEVER you want. There's no need to be put down, put out, and let out. The problem isn't with you. The problem is with the commander who firmly believes that your class is useless to the group, or your build is useless to the group, or that your weapons are useless to the group. Now I'm tired of listening to the people above saying, "Well, you'll have an easier time of it, if you run what your told to run." OHHH GEEE WILLICKERS, what's the point of even doing that. I don't paly Warrior, I Don't play Revanant, I don't play Necromancer or Scourge, I don't play Thief, I don't play Guardian or Firebrand, because I PERSONALLY DON'T LIKE THEM !~ I don't care to play them, I don't find them any fun. I don't find them any use to my personal playstyle. In fact I die more on those classes than I do on my Ranger. Why!? Because I like ranger, I like my build, I like the weapons I choose, and the traits I chose. The few times I SWITCHED to what was "meta" I got burned into the ground faster than a firecracker on the 4th of July. And don't be throwing that "L2P" kitten in my face either. I played them, I just don't like the mechanics. "You have to do this skill first, then this other skill second, and then you have to weapon swap and use this skill third...." Ohmygod, it's like the instruction manual from hell on how to have fun, but NOT really have fun at all...LEARN YOUR ROTATIONS....EVEN if you ran what the kitten commander wants to run, you gotta play the rotations. LOL! This argument is four fricken years OLD. You people BORE me to death on this argument. I swear I feel like falling asleep, but I roll my eyes at the screen as I listen to the argument in discord, or read it in forums. Play what you want. When you want to. And to hell with the rest of the player base. If your the loose cannon of a Pug group then no worries. If your part of a Guild that says they'll kick your kitten out if you don't toe the line...that's still your choice. So here's the summary. If you get kicked out of a zerg, "Take it easy", and keep trucking.

Metas exist for a reason. For example, paragraphs are also meta. You don't need them if you're able to convey thoughts and ideas in a creative manner, but in this case, well, I'm afraid it probably illustrates your issue way more than you think. The reason behind most people not wanting to read what you just wrote is pretty much the exact same reason why most people aren't going to want you in a squad. And this will be true regardless of actual skill. I'm not saying that whatever you wrote here is bad or wrong, because that's not true. But take a moment to read what you wrote out loud and decide if people are really going to take some time out for you.

This is pretty close to an ad hominem, so I'll try to steer things back on track. I think what he's getting at in fewer words is that the most important thing to considering in playing a recreational game like GW2 (this is not a competitive game) is to have fun. If you're not having fun then you're doing it wrong. Don't stress about others and just play what you want. If commander can't accept that just follow the zerg anyways. They can't stop you.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:There's nothing I can do about a commander's choice of who stays in the group or who gets kicked. The argument i'm seeing here from certain individuals is, "Play what the commander wants you to play." That's what i'm seeing here. That's the argument that is being placed forth on the plate and shoved into everyone's face. I'm not going to be tactful about the argument, and i'm not going to continue it, considering that you all pretty much missed the point entirely. Certain classes or builds will be kicked automatically, depending on the actions of the Commander his or her self. I'm stating, that I don't care or give a kitten about that situation any more, and I havn't really given a kitten about it in many years now. I was offering sympathy to the poster in general above who asked if anyone had similar incidents of what he went through. My answer was yes. It happened to me. It still occurs to me, BUT, I just go with the flow. IF i'm part of the group and accepted, then I follow the commands, use what is called for active attack or defense. I watch for opportunities. IF I am kicked from the group for the CLASS I chose, or the BUILD I chose, or the WEAPONS I choose to play on the field, so be it. And my finalized answer was, even if you are kicked, if your NOT playing what is needed or wanted, nothing is STOPPING you from running besides the group or going off to do WHATEVER you want. There's no need to be put down, put out, and let out. The problem isn't with you. The problem is with the commander who firmly believes that your class is useless to the group, or your build is useless to the group, or that your weapons are useless to the group. Now I'm tired of listening to the people above saying, "Well, you'll have an easier time of it, if you run what your told to run." OHHH GEEE WILLICKERS, what's the point of even doing that. I don't paly Warrior, I Don't play Revanant, I don't play Necromancer or Scourge, I don't play Thief, I don't play Guardian or Firebrand, because I PERSONALLY DON'T LIKE THEM !~ I don't care to play them, I don't find them any fun. I don't find them any use to my personal playstyle. In fact I die more on those classes than I do on my Ranger. Why!? Because I like ranger, I like my build, I like the weapons I choose, and the traits I chose. The few times I SWITCHED to what was "meta" I got burned into the ground faster than a firecracker on the 4th of July. And don't be throwing that "L2P" kitten in my face either. I played them, I just don't like the mechanics. "You have to do this skill first, then this other skill second, and then you have to weapon swap and use this skill third...." Ohmygod, it's like the instruction manual from hell on how to have fun, but NOT really have fun at all...LEARN YOUR ROTATIONS....EVEN if you ran what the kitten commander wants to run, you gotta play the rotations. LOL! This argument is four fricken years OLD. You people BORE me to death on this argument. I swear I feel like falling asleep, but I roll my eyes at the screen as I listen to the argument in discord, or read it in forums. Play what you want. When you want to. And to hell with the rest of the player base. If your the loose cannon of a Pug group then no worries. If your part of a Guild that says they'll kick your kitten out if you don't toe the line...that's still your choice. So here's the summary. If you get kicked out of a zerg, "Take it easy", and keep trucking.

Metas exist for a reason. For example, paragraphs are also meta. You don't need them if you're able to convey thoughts and ideas in a creative manner, but in this case, well, I'm afraid it probably illustrates your issue way more than you think. The reason behind most people not wanting to read what you just wrote is pretty much the exact same reason why most people aren't going to want you in a squad. And this will be true regardless of actual skill. I'm not saying that whatever you wrote here is bad or wrong, because that's not true. But take a moment to read what you wrote out loud and decide if people are really going to take some time out for you.

This is pretty close to an ad hominem, so I'll try to steer things back on track. I think what he's getting at in fewer words is that the most important thing to considering in playing a recreational game like GW2 (this is not a competitive game) is to have fun. If you're not having fun then you're doing it wrong. Don't stress about others and just play what you want. If commander can't accept that just follow the zerg anyways. They can't stop you.

Of course you shouldn't play a game if you're not having fun. But this isn't a single player game and you don't play in a vacuum. Whether or not it is competitive is actually irrelevant. What if my idea of fun is to build catapults to hit doors? Should I follow commanders around and drop catapults at doors even if they say else? You can't say it's griefing. It's simply a different opinion. But do you think people are going to like it? Now, you don't need the approval of other people to play this game mode. But it certainly makes it harder to work together.

In the case of my previous comment, I didn't use the length of the post to discredit anyone. I didn't even say they were wrong. What I did say was that the lack of effort put in formatting will have a harder time getting things done and people will not be as sympathetic to your cause. Approach matters; and it certainly does in WvW too.

Sure, you are free to do whatever you want, but the other side is you have to accept the consequences of what you do.

Btw, I do believe you can follow people without joining a squad; commanders don't own maps and I don't think there are too many people arguing otherwise.

Edit: Was edited for quite a while.

[Zexanima.7851]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:There's nothing I can do about a commander's choice of who stays in the group or who gets kicked. The argument i'm seeing here from certain individuals is, "Play what the commander wants you to play." That's what i'm seeing here. That's the argument that is being placed forth on the plate and shoved into everyone's face. I'm not going to be tactful about the argument, and i'm not going to continue it, considering that you all pretty much missed the point entirely. Certain classes or builds will be kicked automatically, depending on the actions of the Commander his or her self. I'm stating, that I don't care or give a kitten about that situation any more, and I havn't really given a kitten about it in many years now. I was offering sympathy to the poster in general above who asked if anyone had similar incidents of what he went through. My answer was yes. It happened to me. It still occurs to me, BUT, I just go with the flow. IF i'm part of the group and accepted, then I follow the commands, use what is called for active attack or defense. I watch for opportunities. IF I am kicked from the group for the CLASS I chose, or the BUILD I chose, or the WEAPONS I choose to play on the field, so be it. And my finalized answer was, even if you are kicked, if your NOT playing what is needed or wanted, nothing is STOPPING you from running besides the group or going off to do WHATEVER you want. There's no need to be put down, put out, and let out. The problem isn't with you. The problem is with the commander who firmly believes that your class is useless to the group, or your build is useless to the group, or that your weapons are useless to the group. Now I'm tired of listening to the people above saying, "Well, you'll have an easier time of it, if you run what your told to run." OHHH GEEE WILLICKERS, what's the point of even doing that. I don't paly Warrior, I Don't play Revanant, I don't play Necromancer or Scourge, I don't play Thief, I don't play Guardian or Firebrand, because I PERSONALLY DON'T LIKE THEM !~ I don't care to play them, I don't find them any fun. I don't find them any use to my personal playstyle. In fact I die more on those classes than I do on my Ranger. Why!? Because I like ranger, I like my build, I like the weapons I choose, and the traits I chose. The few times I SWITCHED to what was "meta" I got burned into the ground faster than a firecracker on the 4th of July. And don't be throwing that "L2P" kitten in my face either. I played them, I just don't like the mechanics. "You have to do this skill first, then this other skill second, and then you have to weapon swap and use this skill third...." Ohmygod, it's like the instruction manual from hell on how to have fun, but NOT really have fun at all...LEARN YOUR ROTATIONS....EVEN if you ran what the kitten commander wants to run, you gotta play the rotations. LOL! This argument is four fricken years OLD. You people BORE me to death on this argument. I swear I feel like falling asleep, but I roll my eyes at the screen as I listen to the argument in discord, or read it in forums. Play what you want. When you want to. And to hell with the rest of the player base. If your the loose cannon of a Pug group then no worries. If your part of a Guild that says they'll kick your kitten out if you don't toe the line...that's still your choice. So here's the summary. If you get kicked out of a zerg, "Take it easy", and keep trucking.

Metas exist for a reason. For example, paragraphs are also meta. You don't need them if you're able to convey thoughts and ideas in a creative manner, but in this case, well, I'm afraid it probably illustrates your issue way more than you think. The reason behind most people not wanting to read what you just wrote is pretty much the exact same reason why most people aren't going to want you in a squad. And this will be true regardless of actual skill. I'm not saying that whatever you wrote here is bad or wrong, because that's not true. But take a moment to read what you wrote out loud and decide if people are really going to take some time out for you.

This is pretty close to an ad hominem, so I'll try to steer things back on track. I think what he's getting at in fewer words is that the most important thing to considering in playing a recreational game like GW2 (this is not a competitive game) is to have fun. If you're not having fun then you're doing it wrong. Don't stress about others and just play what you want. If commander can't accept that just follow the zerg anyways. They can't stop you.

Of course you shouldn't play a game if you're not having fun. But this isn't a single player game and you don't play in a vacuum.

This argument cuts both ways. I understand the point of the game is to have fun and respect that all those other people I play with may not enjoy playing what is 'meta'. Just because everyone doesn't play what is meta doesn't mean you can't win or have a good time, it'll just make it a little more challenging.

Whether or not it is competitive is actually irrelevant.

It's actually not irrelevant. Certain games are geared more towards a competitive experience where as other games not. This dictates how the game is designed and how the player base is expected to interact with the game. WvW is not designed around a competitive mindset even though it does have some competitive elements, if people come at it with a competitive mindset they are bound to be gravely disappointed. It's fine to be competitive with it but you have to accept that is not the game modes sole purpose and some people are not there for the same reasons as you.

What if my idea of fun is to build catapults to hit doors? Should I follow commanders around and drop catapults at doors even if they say else? You can't say it's griefing.

Sure, go for it.

It's simply a different opinion. But do you think people are going to like it?

Their opinion doesn't really matter just like how they don't think your opinion matters when they kick you from a zerg for not playing what they think is best. If the game allows for it within the rules and you enjoy doing it then go for it. IF the game should allow that particular thing or if it'll make you any friends is another discussion.

Sure, you are free to do whatever you want, but the other side is you have to accept the consequences of what you do.

This is true, never said they wouldn't. The commander will also have to accept the consequences of having a salty ranger follow them around and drop siege everywhere because they were too focused on being competitive and kicked them for not playing what they wanted.

[ArchonWing.9480]

This argument cuts both ways. I understand the point of the game is to have fun and respect that all those other people I play with may not enjoy playing what is 'meta'. Just because everyone doesn't play what is meta doesn't mean you can't win or have a good time, it'll just make it a little more challenging.

When you join a squad with a random build, you're not respecting people that want to play in that format. Otherwise, I personally could care less.

It's actually not irrelevant. Certain games are geared more towards a competitive experience where as other games not. This dictates how the game is designed and how the player base is expected to interact with the game. WvW is not designed around a competitive mindset even though it does have some competitive elements, if people come at it with a competitive mindset they are bound to be gravely disappointed. It's fine to be competitive with it but you have to accept that is not the game modes sole purpose and some people are not there for the same reasons as you.

It's not relevant because the defining issue (and which creates conflict) is the possibility of failure. It's the same reason why bringing bad builds into say, fractals, is going to warrant a bad response, even though pve is obviously not competitive. Your lack of performance may result in failure for the whole team. Whether or not this game or WvW is competitive is a subjective assessment, and really only gauges how seriously people take it.

And ultimately, this matters the most because I've never heard of anyone complaining when they're winning. That's just how it is.

And the catapult example is simply one example of how I can negatively impact everyone's experience. If people waste supply on catapults I build, it may be split and suddenly everyone can't take the tower because of my actions. I would consider this to be a bad thing.

Their opinion doesn't really matter just like how they don't think your opinion matters when they kick you from a zerg for not playing what they think is best. If the game allows for it within the rules and you enjoy doing it then go for it. IF the game should allow that particular thing or if it'll make you any friends is another discussion.

Sure. I'm just saying it's possible to reach a point where everyone can work together.

This is true, never said they wouldn't. The commander will also have to accept the consequences of having a salty ranger follow them around and drop siege everywhere because they were too focused on being competitive and kicked them for not playing what they wanted.

The difference is the commander will still be able to get things done eventually because they have people to play with while the salty ranger is just going to get kicked from every group regardless of game mode (as they should) because they're too busy trying to make a statement. And let's be honest. If someone is that vindictive to punish the whole server for one person's actions, there's absolutely nothing that can be done to appease that person.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

usually if youre vocal on comms people don't care, more so if your off meta build is zerg worthy (ranger druid, thief staff).

[Daccura.4769]

@Princ.3598 said:I would just like to add that I'm talking about the scenario of a squad not being full. So 35/50, otherwise I would gladly leave a spot for a meta class honestly.

The Support classe should not waste their cooldowns on a class which brings nothing to the squad (non-meta class) - A Guard sharing stability not to you will go to one other one in the squad - the person in the squad will bring more to the zerg than your class. That is the reason why and this is not only for boons, it is for cleanses, healing - everything. The buffs etc. should not go wasted on non-meta classes which give the zerg little to nothing - the buffs should be shared inside the squad with the meta zerg classes.It may sound harsh but it is as simple as that. Blame the devs for not being able to balance this game mode (btw. still can't believe how it is not possible since we already have a 3 split skill mode anyway for PvP/WvW/Pve).

[Whiteout.1975]

I didn't comment on this thread because I didn't really see a point. Nothing against the OP. However, now I see one. And that is to ask...Why is this thread still going?

[anduriell.6280]

Meta classes and builds are in this game because:

• by game design we have a very limited scope or choices to build.
• Anet pushing down some classes with artificial limitations across all its possible choices (like no ranged AoE choice for ranger)
• Not enough separation in design between classes. All builds have almost an homogeneus access to the boons in games.
• Ranged AoE is overpowered in this game, there is no downside to use a ranged AoE an oposition to single target.

If damage from ranged AoE skills would have the damage distributed between the targets instead multiplied, melee and single ranged target would get a better representation.