Syrus.2174 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 In most cases the Retaliation boon is neither of much help or bother. From my experience it doesn't make much difference in PvE, at least not that it really matters, nor would I assume it changes much in PvP.The problem comes from how it determines and applies its damage and the reason why I create this post comes from WvW and playing a Ele and Rev in that game mode, so this will be focussed on that.In WvW for most classes Retaliation damage does not matter as it is applied on a per-hit basis instead of taking into account how much damage you dealt, so a class doing 10k damage in one hit will only get one tick of Retaliation, while a class that would do 10k damage in 100 hits of 100 damage would take 100 Retaliation ticks (and probably die).I love to play both Rev and Ele in WvW, and this difference is massive. Many people would imagine Ele as a hard-hitter instead of a class that wittles down the enemies, but in reality, Staff Ele relies quite a lot on putting down many AEs of rather low damage, instead of, for example, the single big-damage attacks that a Rev throws out. Now an Ele is already an extremely squishy class, even when running full Marauder your health is barely above what some classes have as base health, and armor is pretty much non-existent.It is already difficult enough to take on a full-buffed out enemy zerg, but Retaliation means for some classes that you can't even attack them without risking your life - without the enemy even targeting you. There is no skill required, no attention needs to be paid by the enemy, no action to be taken. As an Ele, merely attacking the enemy zerg can kill you, without them having to do anything. I literally had that happen several times earlier, where bombing an enemy group, focussed on a keeps lord, not moving out of the bomb, would down me despite doing whatever I could to heal myself. I don't know which other classes suffer such severe problems with aforementioned boon, but overall I think a mechanic which kills you without the enemy needing to do anything, with nothing you can do about it besides "not attacking at all", is horrendously bad designed. The game is already clustered with reflects (and other projectile hate) to the point that playing anything that isn't mainly ground targeted is already an annoyance, but at least reflects can be avoided. Retaliation on the other hand can only be avoided by not attacking at all.I only really see Retaliation harm those classes that rely on many smaller hits. If you hit few big hits, it can be ignored. It mainly harms those classes, that already are very squishy and need to play carefully, but playing carefully in this case would just mean not attacking at all or having a dedicated healer next to you. For all others it is negligible.The main problem is, the enemy should not be rewarded for allowing themselves to be hit, just as you should not be punished, without counter and without the enemy having to react, for attacking. This boon works very unfairly against some classes, while being of little consequence agaisnt others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefal.8426 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 I went to WvW once with meme build.Core Guardian that focus on retaliation.It was funny to see them melt themselves.The only weakness of this build is condi dmg. And you're pretty much useless in zerg. But for roaming? It was really fun. That sneaky thief thinks he can 1 shot me? Yea keep running lil fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Uzumaki.1524 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 "This boon works very unfairly against some classes, while being of little consequence against others."Then it's kinda balanced in a way.I understand the frustration in WvW, when there's a lot of people and it's hard to keep track of every single person your skills are hiting, but then it's a matter of balancing it for WvW, removing it completely from the game will just make some classes too strong.Retaliation and Reflects is what keep people from just stacking as many Rifle Deadeyes, Bow Rangers, Pistol Thiefs and just pew pewing people from a distance without counterplay hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Hmm, I expect that attacking a zerg should get you killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 @Ashen.2907 said:Hmm, I expect that attacking a zerg should get you killed.Of course it should be dangerous. But not just by attacking, if the defender doesn't even have to do anything actively for the attacker to go down, there is something wrong in my opinion. And that is exactly the case with retaliation for some classes.And I don't see how removing retaliation would make classes too strong. If you said, it'd weaken some classes, I see a valid point. Especially since some traits are somewhat build around it from what I saw on a quick look over it. But I don't think it would be an unsolvable problem. Reflects are somewhat fine, I mean, the overall projectile hate is a problem, but that's another issue. Reflects can be avoided by just stopping to throw projectiles at the enemy until the reflect is gone. Retaliation is a boon. In a half-way decent zerg everyone has that boon and it is almost constantly up. A problem is how unequally it harms some classes while other classes are not bothered by it all, but I also see it as bad design to harm attackers without the defender having to do anything but have a boon applied. Reflect - as far as I know - don't follow you around, often have to be tactically placed to be useful and can be avoided. You can also get away from the damage by getting into cover for example. With Retaliation, once you placed down that AE, you will be eating that damage no matter what, only healing or damage negation can save you from it.If you ever got lucky enough to get that perfect Ele bomb on a zerg, you will know how painful Retaliation can be - and why do I get punished for a zerg playing badly, ignoring the Ele on a ledge dropping lots of AEs on them? So many times I could not put out my full damage potential just because Retaliation was literally killing my Ele - without anyone actually hitting me at all. To me, that is broken.When playing Rev on the other hand, I don't remember ever really having worried about Retaliation. Throw in a CoR, scoring a full hit - it's only a few big hits, you get a few ticks of Retaliation but the base armor alone reduces that damage nicely - where as an Ele I'd be half dead, as a Rev I'd have lost a few percent of life, for the same damage dealt. I usually had to worry a lot more about reflects, (Of course a Rev's full potential requires you to be on even ground with the enemy, while Ele works best from a ledge above, so there's some difference in risk, but a Rev is also much sturdier overall.)I totally agree that taking on a zerg should be dangerous - if the zerg pays attention. That's what dodges and such are for. That's what tactical smart play and positioning is for. Being punished just for attacking on the other hand feels wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mewcifer.5198 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Sounds balanced enough to me.If you play a class that can get rekt by retal then make sure you run with a group that brings more boonstrip to the table.Group composition and organization is key in fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Playing staff ele with Berserker gear + scholar runes = accept consequences.i don't see this complaint from heal tempest or those freaking boon evade sword weavers that just don't die easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:Playing staff ele with Berserker gear + scholar runes = accept consequences.i don't see this complaint from heal tempest or those freaking boon evade sword weavers that just don't die easily.Neither is it Berserker gear, nor Scholar runes.And comparing heal focussed or roaming builds to a zerg focussed damage build is not really useful.I'm talking about how Retaliation has a lot more consequences for some classes than it has for others and how dying to a passive, unavoidable thing is not a good mechanic. In other words "the only way not to die is not to attack"? The difference comes from some classes having few hits for big damage, while classes with many hits for that amount of damage get punished significantly harder. Overall though I think Retaliation could just as well be removed, being a "useless" boon, as it is either overpowered - killing people just for attacking without requiring the defender to actively fight back, or underpowered, if it were nerfed."Group composition" also doesn't change these facts. I expect the enemy to have to fight back to kill me, not to just stand there while I die to unavoidable Retaliation.EDIT: I do not know why this was moved to WvW, the suggestion of removing Retaliation should concern all game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick.8967 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Two bad ideas really: torment and retal. Retal is just a terrible idea- there is already enough projectile hate (a lot of which is passive but at least some are activate to use) without this free damage to anything that attacks you. Problem is, there is no way they will remove it from the game, or even tone it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobbah.3102 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 I love my Retal I'll swap it for perma stealth or any stealth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick.7164 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Get rid of retal and reflect but give guadian full stealth and 20K one shot hits Sounds balanced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Yea Retal is pretty bad since it gets passed out like candy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyuDragnier.9476 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 I remember these complaints from as far back as 2015. The problem with Retal is how the return damage is done and the duration. If it does small damage returns, it punishes multiple hit moves like it does now. If it goes for % of damage taken returned, it becomes too powerful because heavy hitters will take more damage than the multi-hitters. It's easy to increase the duration of it, so it can persist for long periods of time. They'd have to change the effect of it for it to be balanced out, like maybe to a stack system like Stability, where it only counters 1 attack per stack (max 25 stacks). That means it's still useful in reflecting damage, but it's not infinite. So heavy zerg fighting would eat through the retal quick, but it'd still have its use for hurting enemy attackers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviel.7493 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Retal melts me too and it's nigh impossible to see when it pops up.But Torment/Confusion are just as bad and clearly aren't going anywhere, so I don't have much hope. When the proper response to a situation is to sit still and use 0 skills (unless you have clears up)...well, retal seems almost nice by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 :/ zergs are lumbering dolyaks. they do little damage and require a team to fight.so you want 1 vs many and 1 wins? how about the herd of dolyaks?note, you can always have a pocket ventari rev to heal you =). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 boon durations have been broken since HoT came out. they don't care to fix anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 I don't understand why fire aura has a cooldown per attacker, but retal doesn't. Retal doesn't need to be removed, it simply needs a cooldown on trigger so it affects everyone the same way. They can even increase the base damage after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 The problem with retal is the fact you can stack up to spread damage and make it impossible to kill individual people. Either the ability to stack like that needs addressing (nerf guardian) or retal needs addressing (nerf guardian). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offair.2563 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Retaliation was fun on release. One barrage would get you killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @Offair.2563 said:Retaliation was fun on release. One barrage would get you killed.Was fun o release cause players had to have attention and Have some team work and wait for corrupts before they could damage targets, but gw2 low skill plebs just want instanht reward... not much to expect from a game that carries with gimmicks.Spam boons vs spam corrupts... there’s the nowadays balance.... spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobbah.3102 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Working as intended !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirnale.5914 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 simply limit the range of retaliation (like 900 range) or like steki said, give a cooldown for each attacker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @Kirnale.5914 said:simply limit the range of retaliation (like 900 range) or like steki said, give a cooldown for each attacker.You can’t limit retal range. That’s up to whatever skill can hit you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luranni.9470 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Translation: My ranged aoe spam isn't quite as mindless as I need it to be. Pls fix. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick.8967 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 @Luranni.9470 said:Translation: My ranged aoe spam isn't quite as mindless as I need it to be. Pls fix. :D :DTranslation: my no brain retal is completely mindless please don't nerf or make it sensible like having an internal cooldown... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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