An open letter to PvE players

SinisterSlay.6973 · September 16, 2019

You'd think a game called Guild wars would have Guild vs Guild content. Might be a fun wvw thing. Maybe even Guild Alliance vs Guild Alliance.

kharmin.7683 · September 16, 2019

@SinisterSlay.6973 said:You'd think a game called Guild wars would have Guild vs Guild content. Might be a fun wvw thing. Maybe even Guild Alliance vs Guild Alliance.

It was said before release that this would not be the case.

Sylvari.2953 · September 16, 2019

I'm a PvE player but I was an EotM addict when it was a thing. I used to lvl my alts there. I can't get into "real" WvW. EotM was more fun, smaller map, more caps.

Excursion.9752 · September 16, 2019

For roughly 6 years I only played only pve content. Then the warclaw brought me to WvW and I got lucky. Found a group that actually taught me the fundamentals and took time to explain how to be successful. Two things ruined WvW for me. I hated running back on foot every time I got killed. It was not the death that got me it was the running. The second thing was some basic understanding of the mode and what works and what doesn't. Now I play it for at least 3 hours a day. Also getting on a commanders / groups discord can help a great deal as well. Just like anything else once you find a good group its hard to not come back.

TheGrimm.5624 · September 16, 2019

@SinisterSlay.6973 said:
Yeah sorry when I try wvw. I don't feel any sense that I am helping. Your right, my open world build is probably the problem. But then this thread seems to be trying to say that open world builds should be used for wvw.
The primary reason I don't raid or wvw is because you have to follow a meta, and I find that boring. I much prefer to make my own build using my own research and accounting for my own abilities. I find pvp decently fun, even if I am not great at it.

Just a side note, I am a PvXer, and have played WvW for about 5 years. I would offer a different thought to you. I have 20 toons for WvW each geared out differently and doubtfully few would be considered meta. WvW and custom builds work well together but knowing what you can do with them may take time. But no you don't have to run meta. Most Pugmanders would prefer you are running meta so they can set some expectations of what they can do with you but a number of servers run heavy pug non-metas as well and do fine.

The funny part is whatever build I create for a WvW will be their gear set in non-wvw settings as well. Once you find a build that works for you in WvW it might work rather well in other game modes as well. Good hunting!

MrForz.1953 · September 16, 2019

WvW got old for me after the 5 first years.

Endless Soul.5178 · September 16, 2019

I dabble and give it some time a couple times a week, but I'll always be a PvEer at heart.

Also, meow.

Vlad Filen.8049 · September 16, 2019

WvW is my favorite game mode, if I want a proper PvE, I play another game instead

Arzurag.7506 · September 16, 2019

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@Arzurag.7506 said:Catmander on duty, I already play wvw and have rightfully earned warbringer, to charge into battle with flame and glory.

Well earning in WvW.. Follow Dorrito until your ears bleed and your eyes glaze over.. attack all doors, swipe at all empty space inside towers and keeps, harvest nodes.. rinse repeat. On occasion the zerg is required to turn, charge and hope numbers win the day if not then swap maps rinse repeat, but if the bad people come again and zerg wipes then blame commander, blame being on a dead server then rage quit and try repeating tomorrow.WvW lost it's way a year after launch.. I still remember being on Underworld in the good days until it was found the active Comm was paying other server Comms for the pleasure of being aloud to karma train.. until one interesting night in server TS channel - after that things were never quite the same :)

I´m on elona reach, almost always outnumbered and earned a lot of wxp by being at a disadvantage.I earned warbringer when mirage used to be opressivly strong and killed a lot of players.

I stand here proudly, mustering the wings of war, stating that I frickin´earned it through playing over 400h+ of wvw, enduring spanish invaders and germans who where riding very high horses, figuretively speaking. It wasn´t always fun and the reward was not worth the sweat at all but........no but, it scked, tbh.

Fozzie.5370 · September 16, 2019

@"Daddicus.6128" said:I said "no" because I don't want to play it as endgame content. I play WvW every day, but only to get the dailies. I still don't like it, because I like GW as a cooperative game, not competitive.

Totally agree. In my younger days I was a hardened, dedicated PvP'er playing multiple PvP dedicated games on/off for 10 years, constantly duelling, training, competing in tournaments (solo, and groups) and can honestly say without realising myself at the time how sick I got of it all after 10 years. It wasn't so much the gameplay: I love PvP game mechanics, it was the "class of players you meet" > You meet the very worst of people the gaming world has to offer and this is what I got sick of. PvP breeds self-centredness types, and from my own personal experience I found I was becoming someone I didn't like.

Its fun at the beginning, you rank-up, get a stack of wins under your belt, and become the player everyone wants to beat, but then you realise the downside in that you meet a lot of toxic rage people, generally angry, bitter players, hater-types, "little-hard-man-syndrome" people, and general no-lifer game addicts that feel they have to prove something in PvP in an online game at any costs: Thus: Hackers, bug abusers, cable disconnection abuse...the list goes on and its very sad case.

Gw2 for me is different. If I wanted to play a PvP game I wouldn't be playing Gw2. Sure PvP and WvW exist in Gw2, but for me they are not the sole focus or pull for Gw2 for countless players. Its the friendly community and co-operative aspect that is the biggest lure.

So no intention of ever stepping into PvP or WvW in Gw2: Been there done that.

Mewcifer.5198 · September 16, 2019

I PvE and WvW. This post feels a little patronizing. It is also downplaying how difficult it can be to really get into WvW.

If you happened to join a server that isn't very active at the times you are available to WvW you either need to learn to roam (which I prefer larger group fights) or pay gems to swap servers. Then there is a lot of acronyms and jargon to pick up on. Many commanders use voice chat but they don't always give the squad a link to a discord/teamspeak so you can start to feel sorta lost without knowing what they expect people to do and when.

WvW is a whole lot of fun. Very few things can beat the excitement of when two large, organized groups clash. Fighting your way into a well defended location, or even defending that location. And I would love for more people to get into WvW.

But I won't pretend it is for everyone. The rewards all require a relatively long grind. A lot pf PvE grinds allow you to do tiny bits as a time or are daily timegated. But WvW requires you to be actively participating the entire time you are in the mists. And you have to be in the mists for reward tracks and pips to progress.

If someone is only playing WvW for rewards, they are not going to find it fun at all. If someone isn't on a good server fit, they are not going to find it fun at all.

If someone doesn't have another person introducing them to WvW personally and playing it with them, their first experience is likely to be running around aimlessly and confused before getting 1-shot by some deadeye. It isn't hard to see why the game mode isn't growing.

Ashen.2907 · September 16, 2019

Weird, the worst people I have ever encountered in a game were in PvE. YMMV of course.

starlinvf.1358 · September 16, 2019

@Ashen.2907 said:
@"starlinvf.1358" said:Paper beats Rock, Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happen to beat Rock. That is until Rock gets its Espec- at which point it becomes an unstoppable killing machine; that also beats Paper. And would beat Scissors. But it can't find Scissors, cuz Scissors be invisible.
And thats called "Balance".
PS: Revenants are Mushrooms.

Kudos for making me laugh out loud.Now I have to clean the coffee off of my monitor.

I can't take credit for creating that. It comes from a WoW video not much older then the game itself (the map was released in 2005). The whole Rougecraft series is hilarious if you know some common MMO class tropes.... but its even funnier if you've played WoW and know what the players were like back then.

(balance)

(compilation)

> @TheGrimm.5624 said:

@SinisterSlay.6973 said:
Yeah sorry when I try wvw. I don't feel any sense that I am helping. Your right, my open world build is probably the problem. But then this thread seems to be trying to say that open world builds should be used for wvw.
The primary reason I don't raid or wvw is because you have to follow a meta, and I find that boring. I much prefer to make my own build using my own research and accounting for my own abilities. I find pvp decently fun, even if I am not great at it.

Just a side note, I am a PvXer, and have played WvW for about 5 years. I would offer a different thought to you. I have 20 toons for WvW each geared out differently and doubtfully few would be considered meta. WvW and custom builds work well together but knowing what you can do with them may take time. But no you don't have to run meta. Most Pugmanders would prefer you are running meta so they can set some expectations of what they can do with you but a number of servers run heavy pug non-metas as well and do fine.

The funny part is whatever build I create for a WvW will be their gear set in non-wvw settings as well. Once you find a build that works for you in WvW it might work rather well in other game modes as well. Good hunting!

Its hard to blame then though. Damage in WvW scales quickly AGAINST the target in a way that you NEED a back bone of Group sustain that practically demands over-compensating. Open world builds are heavily skewed toward glass damage, with only a few minor tweaks to mitigate One-shot situations.... everything else about Open world is an attrition war. PvP and WvW Roaming highly values sustain, because everything you go up against can continuously dish out as much (if not more) damage as you can.

But WvW zergs are a whole different animal. The aggregate damage and CCs put out by groups as small as 10, can easily overwhelm builds which lack a continuous source of Stability, Cleansing and Healing. No single build can do that without giving up all its damage. Which is why GvG and Zerg comp are even more strongly reinforced then Raid comps, because even the collateral damage a squad can generate is upwards of 50-100k DPS.... over 4 times the HP most builds can even have. In fact... its not even that uncommon to go up and down multiple times in the span of a few seconds mid-fight, or even go straight past down state due to the volume of incoming damage.

Ultimately, the WvW Group meta isn't so much about how damage is put out, so much as how long sustain can last against what the enemy is putting out. More damage increases the pressure.... but without sustain of your own, isn't doesn't take long for their damage to outlast your personal defenses.

I order of priority, you need a support backbone for each sub-group.... usually 1 Firebrand and 1 Healing Scrapper minimum. Second priority is Sustained AOE damage and Boon Corruption, of which Scourge does both in excess. Second is a practical requirement for Third, which is Hard CCs and Spike damage. Without corrupts removing stability, CC and Spike damage fail to connect. This is why most groups need at least 15 people with this comp layout to support PUGs of any other type; as no other builds can provide this level of Core Sustain, while also countering it.

I've seen coordinated groups of other builds operating as auxiliary to the main group comp. But its excessively hard to coordinate PUGs, as many aren't capable of keeping up with call outs and reactions, and too many refuse to join voice comms (or refuse to the Comms the group is using) despite how much it improves team direction. Jerks are jerks, regardless. But most PUGmanders live in a space where everything happens 3 seconds behind them, when it only takes half a second to utterly destabilize a group. Its like trying to play in sPvP with 3k ping against 5 Mirages..... hard enough on its own, made even more impossible by latency.

But looping back around for a second, I also want to point out another common problem with PUGmanders on nearly every server. Many of them have massive Egos, and the level at which they can keep it in check varies more then rando builds in a World boss fight. Because of this, most are insanely prone to micromanagement.... which is exactly what you don't want to be doing in groups the size GvG and Zergs run at. I've only met one commander who never had an egocentric melt down when they were beat by groups who were obviously doing better then them. Some are better at managing it then others..... but it never surprises me now, how fast a commander falls apart when they get frustrated. And in that same set of statistics, that one exception is the only one I've met that knows how to delegate. Most commanders can't handle other voices talking when they're focusing...... The exception has 3 voices talking over each other, with each of the 3 directing their own subgroup, and playing off each other's movements. Unsurprisingly, a lot of GvG groups operate similar to this; but usually with less voice activity, since they know how to read each other's movements.

Another issue, largely due to the micromanagement style, is a lot of Commanders not knowing how to handle Strike groups. Normally Rangers and Deadeyes are summarily shut down by the amount of sustain and reflect the typical WvW comp has. Other similar high impact, low target builds also fall into this category. While incredibly difficult, its entirely possible to coordinate a subgroup of PUGs to do things like Focus fire, cut lines, and/or Havoc high value targets and targets of opportunity in an enemy zerg. The hardest part is teaching them how to deal/bypass reflects. But once set up and practiced a bit, they are surprisingly effective at gnawing away at the enemy forces. Its like watching Dolphins/Whales break up a school of fish. Too bad it requires a Lieutenant to do their job, and PUGs willing to learn and listen.... 2 things most commanders lack trust in.

SinisterSlay.6973 · September 16, 2019

@starlinvf.1358 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@starlinvf.1358 said:Paper beats Rock, Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happen to beat Rock. That is until Rock gets its Espec- at which point it becomes an unstoppable killing machine; that also beats Paper. And would beat Scissors. But it can't find Scissors, cuz Scissors be invisible.
And thats called "Balance".
PS: Revenants are Mushrooms.