No xpacs, no problem! Work on professions!

[Swagger.1459]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And you’re wrong, completely wrong, or just not paying attention to the past around here.

Elaborate?

Are you saying the only way we can get decent e-specs is if they also release 4 maps, new story, jumping puzzles, collections, music, dialog... and such?

[Iozeph.5617]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Will have to disagree. ANet's architecture here has raised the bar when I consider future games. Take ESO, one class an expansion feels way too little too late. Take prior games. When a new class was introduced everyone would be the new class until the shiny wore off, so trying to tell balance was lost because everyone was the new class so how could tell it was out of balance. If anything I would fault them on either sharing the direction they were going or helping us understand their roadmap. Example if we are talking archetypes and they are planning on each class having one then let us know that. General role engi is: core, condi engi is: y, power engi is: a, support engi is:b, healing engi is: c. No I see it as they aimed higher than other game but that does mean more challenge and for people that don't alt even more angst.

I do agree that more links to the elites within the story gives them more background and footing into the wider world. Take the introduction of the deadeye in PoF, that gave us more of framework and give more meaning to the class.

Not to be contentious but what architecture? Yes in older games newer classes would be played as a selling point but what do we have now? As I mentioned we went from eight professions to nine- then eighteen when all of those got their elites and then twenty seven when the next came out. They play distinctly different, yet the elites also are built on top o core. There's no balance for core specs. They gutted core specs pre-HoT then they took some of what they stole and put it back in elites or gave them to other professions. Then before PoF the same things happened again to core and to HoT elites because they wanted to sell POF elites. The only thing that came out fo those two expansions was the obliteration of even a shred of balance in competitive modes. And people want more elites? So we go from twenty seven to thirty six professions?

Anet won't balance core because any improvement to core over powers the elites. And again I say what architecture because this is the company that said they didn't want to do dungeons because it was hard. So why would the company that couldn't do dungeons, that couldn't even balance eight professions before adding Revenant -and certainly couldn't balance them after- want to spend time and money to abortively try to balance thirty six professions?

As it is they've led players down the garden path for the better part of the last two years selling them on a bridge to nowhere about Alliances. Such that the competitive modes are little more than a shadow of what they were population wise.

Again. Not trying to be insulting or contentious here, but I just don't trust them. Not anymore.

If more elites is the wave of the future then the future is a big, fat lie that isn't worth waiting around for.

And don't get me started about the engineer and it's roles. It has two roles right now. Marginalised healer in WvW and Holosmith. The rest, core especially, is just delusional, wishful thinking on the part of players who are still foolish enough to place any trust or hope int he balance/development team.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Will have to disagree. ANet's architecture here has raised the bar when I consider future games. Take ESO, one class an expansion feels way too little too late. Take prior games. When a new class was introduced everyone would be the new class until the shiny wore off, so trying to tell balance was lost because everyone was the new class so how could tell it was out of balance. If anything I would fault them on either sharing the direction they were going or helping us understand their roadmap. Example if we are talking archetypes and they are planning on each class having one then let us know that. General role engi is: core, condi engi is: y, power engi is: a, support engi is:b, healing engi is: c. No I see it as they aimed higher than other game but that does mean more challenge and for people that don't alt even more angst.

I do agree that more links to the elites within the story gives them more background and footing into the wider world. Take the introduction of the deadeye in PoF, that gave us more of framework and give more meaning to the class.

Not to be contentious but what architecture? Yes in older games newer classes would be played as a selling point but what do we have now? As I mentioned we went from eight professions to nine- then eighteen when all of those got their elites and then twenty seven when the next came out. They play distinctly different, yet the elites also are built on top o core. There's no balance for core specs. They gutted core specs pre-HoT then they took some of what they stole and put it back in elites or gave them to other professions. Then before PoF the same things happened again to core and to HoT elites because they wanted to sell POF elites. The only thing that came out fo those two expansions was the obliteration of even a shred of balance in competitive modes. And people want more elites? So we go from twenty seven to thirty six professions?

Anet won't balance core because any improvement to core over powers the elites. And again I say what architecture because this is the company that said they didn't want to do dungeons because it was hard. So why would the company that couldn't do dungeons, that couldn't even balance eight professions before adding Revenant -and certainly couldn't balance them after- want to spend time and money to abortively try to balance thirty six professions?

As it is they've led players down the garden path for the better part of the last two years selling them on a bridge to nowhere about Alliances. Such that the competitive modes are little more than a shadow of what they were population wise.

Again. Not trying to be insulting or contentious here, but I just don't trust them. Not anymore.

If more elites is the wave of the future then the future is a big, fat lie that isn't worth waiting around for.

And don't get me started about the engineer and it's roles. It has two roles right now. Marginalised healer in WvW and Holosmith. The rest, core especially, is just delusional, wishful thinking on the part of players who are still foolish enough to place any trust or hope int he balance/development team.

Your tone comes across well and I understand that you feel that they have not delivered on what your expectations were. No insults taken and a well put reply, at least in my opinion.

I used architecture due to a couple of reasons. One being I was against the move from mixing and matching 5 trait lines to being able to max 3, but only 3. After I saw how they would replace one of three with another to create an elite I could see now how we could have vast amounts of variations. Considering the challenges other games have faced to even release a single new classes. The way Anet did it made it a breeze and as an alt-o-holic I feel I have 24+ toons that all play differently and hence my comment.

I can appreciate that you don't trust them, and I am not making the case that you should. I just oppose people saying no to things while they plan on failure. I error on the side that they are trying to create and balance at the same time. Your mileage will vary there.

Now where we might disagree. I run core classes in WvW against elites at times, I rotate toons on a regular basis depending on what's going on and what I am in the mind of playing that night. In the beginning I would agree, core will be trashed by elites. Over the various updates they have been bringing them more in line. I am an alt-o-holic and have 31 toons, usually with 24 set to WvW. I usually leave some in core, HoT and PoF. So no I don't agree now that core can't stand against elites. And there is no way to prove either side since we can't have a player play both sides of a fight. Last I played my turret engi I actually crossed a scrapper/holo running together and downed them both with the core build, so were they just bads? I might say yes but patches before I was dropping holos in their prime as well on a core. So at least to me, some of the comments that all core classes are UP are not entirely true either. And each time I see a patch addressing a core line that tells me they are looking to keep balancing the differences that players perceive in the core versus elite lines.

Now I will not contest that new elites tend to start as an edge to older builds. I will also not contest that this might be due to influence to sell a feature. What I will contest is that this also might be due to designers trying new things and not seeing combinations that theory-crafters might see since they have more play time and then suddenly we have these mighty builds that provide superior effects to older ones. We see this every balance patch. And part of that is that I think we have the designers by sheer numbers. They may have 100 (or 1-10) people theory crafting builds but we 10,000 and when gamers find something that over powers they share which them multiples the effect. So again I get your mis-trust, but if the difference is in staleness versus over-enthusiasms, I will side on more elites, but I understand others might see it another way.

Good hunting and gaming to you!

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Will have to disagree. ANet's architecture here has raised the bar when I consider future games. Take ESO, one class an expansion feels way too little too late. Take prior games. When a new class was introduced everyone would be the new class until the shiny wore off, so trying to tell balance was lost because everyone was the new class so how could tell it was out of balance. If anything I would fault them on either sharing the direction they were going or helping us understand their roadmap. Example if we are talking archetypes and they are planning on each class having one then let us know that. General role engi is: core, condi engi is: y, power engi is: a, support engi is:b, healing engi is: c. No I see it as they aimed higher than other game but that does mean more challenge and for people that don't alt even more angst.

I do agree that more links to the elites within the story gives them more background and footing into the wider world. Take the introduction of the deadeye in PoF, that gave us more of framework and give more meaning to the class.

Not to be contentious but what architecture? Yes in older games newer classes would be played as a selling point but what do we have now? As I mentioned we went from eight professions to nine- then eighteen when all of those got their elites and then twenty seven when the next came out. They play distinctly different, yet the elites also are built on top o core. There's no balance for core specs. They gutted core specs pre-HoT then they took some of what they stole and put it back in elites or gave them to other professions. Then before PoF the same things happened again to core and to HoT elites because they wanted to sell POF elites. The only thing that came out fo those two expansions was the obliteration of even a shred of balance in competitive modes. And people want more elites? So we go from twenty seven to thirty six professions?

Anet won't balance core because any improvement to core over powers the elites. And again I say what architecture because this is the company that said they didn't want to do dungeons because it was hard. So why would the company that couldn't do dungeons, that couldn't even balance eight professions before adding Revenant -and certainly couldn't balance them after- want to spend time and money to abortively try to balance thirty six professions?

As it is they've led players down the garden path for the better part of the last two years selling them on a bridge to nowhere about Alliances. Such that the competitive modes are little more than a shadow of what they were population wise.

Again. Not trying to be insulting or contentious here, but I just don't trust them. Not anymore.

If more elites is the wave of the future then the future is a big, fat lie that isn't worth waiting around for.

And don't get me started about the engineer and it's roles. It has two roles right now. Marginalised healer in WvW and Holosmith. The rest, core especially, is just delusional, wishful thinking on the part of players who are still foolish enough to place any trust or hope int he balance/development team.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Will have to disagree. ANet's architecture here has raised the bar when I consider future games. Take ESO, one class an expansion feels way too little too late. Take prior games. When a new class was introduced everyone would be the new class until the shiny wore off, so trying to tell balance was lost because everyone was the new class so how could tell it was out of balance. If anything I would fault them on either sharing the direction they were going or helping us understand their roadmap. Example if we are talking archetypes and they are planning on each class having one then let us know that. General role engi is: core, condi engi is: y, power engi is: a, support engi is:b, healing engi is: c. No I see it as they aimed higher than other game but that does mean more challenge and for people that don't alt even more angst.

I do agree that more links to the elites within the story gives them more background and footing into the wider world. Take the introduction of the deadeye in PoF, that gave us more of framework and give more meaning to the class.

Not to be contentious but what architecture? Yes in older games newer classes would be played as a selling point but what do we have now? As I mentioned we went from eight professions to nine- then eighteen when all of those got their elites and then twenty seven when the next came out. They play distinctly different, yet the elites also are built on top o core. There's no balance for core specs. They gutted core specs pre-HoT then they took some of what they stole and put it back in elites or gave them to other professions. Then before PoF the same things happened again to core and to HoT elites because they wanted to sell POF elites. The only thing that came out fo those two expansions was the obliteration of even a shred of balance in competitive modes. And people want more elites? So we go from twenty seven to thirty six professions?

Anet won't balance core because any improvement to core over powers the elites. And again I say what architecture because this is the company that said they didn't want to do dungeons because it was hard. So why would the company that couldn't do dungeons, that couldn't even balance eight professions before adding Revenant -and certainly couldn't balance them after- want to spend time and money to abortively try to balance thirty six professions?

As it is they've led players down the garden path for the better part of the last two years selling them on a bridge to nowhere about Alliances. Such that the competitive modes are little more than a shadow of what they were population wise.

Again. Not trying to be insulting or contentious here, but I just don't trust them. Not anymore.

If more elites is the wave of the future then the future is a big, fat lie that isn't worth waiting around for.

And don't get me started about the engineer and it's roles. It has two roles right now. Marginalised healer in WvW and Holosmith. The rest, core especially, is just delusional, wishful thinking on the part of players who are still foolish enough to place any trust or hope int he balance/development team.

Your tone comes across well and I understand that you feel that they have not delivered on what your expectations were. No insults taken and a well put reply, at least in my opinion.

I used architecture due to a couple of reasons. One being I was against the move from mixing and matching 5 trait lines to being able to max 3, but only 3. After I saw how they would replace one of three with another to create an elite I could see now how we could have vast amounts of variations. Considering the challenges other games have faced to even release a single new classes. The way Anet did it made it a breeze and as an alt-o-holic I feel I have 24+ toons that all play differently and hence my comment.

I can appreciate that you don't trust them, and I am not making the case that you should. I just oppose people saying no to things while they plan on failure. I error on the side that they are trying to create and balance at the same time. Your mileage will vary there.

Now where we might disagree. I run core classes in WvW against elites at times, I rotate toons on a regular basis depending on what's going on and what I am in the mind of playing that night. In the beginning I would agree, core will be trashed by elites. Over the various updates they have been bringing them more in line. I am an alt-o-holic and have 31 toons, usually with 24 set to WvW. I usually leave some in core, HoT and PoF. So no I don't agree now that core can't stand against elites. And there is no way to prove either side since we can't have a player play both sides of a fight. Last I played my turret engi I actually crossed a scrapper/holo running together and downed them both with the core build, so were they just bads? I might say yes but patches before I was dropping holos in their prime as well on a core. So at least to me, some of the comments that all core classes are UP are not entirely true either. And each time I see a patch addressing a core line that tells me they are looking to keep balancing the differences that players perceive in the core versus elite lines.

Now I will not contest that new elites tend to start as an edge to older builds. I will also not contest that this might be due to influence to sell a feature. What I will contest is that this also might be due to designers trying new things and not seeing combinations that theory-crafters might see since they have more play time and then suddenly we have these mighty builds that provide superior effects to older ones. We see this every balance patch. And part of that is that I think we have the designers by sheer numbers. They may have 100 (or 1-10) people theory crafting builds but we 10,000 and when gamers find something that over powers they share which them multiples the effect. So again I get your mis-trust, but if the difference is in staleness versus over-enthusiasms, I will side on more elites, but I understand others might see it another way.

Good hunting and gaming to you!

To go along with what was said I don't trust them either, but I trust them less to make worthwhile changes to existing specs than I do for them to make new ones. You have a double edged sword here mate; The way you're looking at it you might as well just quit the game because on either side they will somehow make a mess. On one side they rework things and marginalize everything, but along with that might come homogenization and worse yet the deflowering and gutting of unique depth for each class.

At least with The elite specs we know what we are getting, and to top that off it adds competition to the current specs that are out. You can even build new elite specs around countering HoT and PoF specs and have it be that they are designed from the ground up to clap those. But then what is going to counter them? Well simply put it will be core, because core will have the tools necessary to deal and cope with the new specs. So this means they would need to add nuance to core (They are right now, every balance patch we see it happen.) So I believe what is going to happen is once episode 3 of living world is on the horizon along with it will come new specs, because by that time all the reworks and nuance needed for core to counter the new comers will be there.

Its clear E-specs are not a moneitization method, so they can and probably will come down the line in the saga. Also put the fact they have more development time to dink with them means they will come out solid and well made and not be a mess like the last two batches who still to this day need tons of fixes. (Either to bring them up, or bring them down a bit.) New content is necessary and new toys, cosmetics and all of the things in-between are 100% required for any game to thrive and survive with the for honor lead being within the dev team (Doing what I don't know) having come off of a game like for honor I have faith that some influence will trickle in.

[Teratus.2859]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And you’re wrong, completely wrong, or just not paying attention to the past around here.

Elaborate?

Are you saying the only way we can get decent e-specs is if they also release 4 maps, new story, jumping puzzles, collections, music, dialog... and such?

No, i'm saying the only way we can get 9 new elite specs at once, done right which are not a complete balance nightmare resulting in constant balance patching or weeks-months of being broken is to have them being carefully developed and tested over a long period of time.. ergo expansion development time not living world.

Keeping them tied to expansions is also a large selling point of that content.If Anet prove that all the benefits and features of expansions can be given away for free then why the hell would anyone bother paying for the next one?

[Swagger.1459]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And you’re wrong, completely wrong, or just not paying attention to the past around here.

Elaborate?

Are you saying the only way we can get decent e-specs is if they also release 4 maps, new story, jumping puzzles, collections, music, dialog... and such?

No, i'm saying the only way we can get 9 new elite specs at once, done right which are not a complete balance nightmare resulting in constant balance patching or weeks-months of being broken is to have them being carefully developed and tested over a long period of time.. ergo expansion development time not living world.

Keeping them tied to expansions is also a large selling point of that content.If Anet prove that all the benefits and features of expansions can be given away for free then why the hell would anyone bother paying for the next one?

Sorry, you’re wrong. E-specs can be provided outside of an xpac. And as far as we know there aren’t any xpacs coming anytime soon, and the devs are aware players want profession updates too.

Maybe you missed this.. https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/new-expansion

[Healix.5819]

@Teratus.2859 said:No, i'm saying the only way we can get 9 new elite specs at once, done right which are not a complete balance nightmare resulting in constant balance patching or weeks-months of being broken is to have them being carefully developed and tested over a long period of time.. ergo expansion development time not living world.

There's no difference between releasing them in an expansion or a season. It's not like they'd create them just prior to an episode, and releasing them in the season would actually give them more time, since they could be pushed back to a later date whereas an expansion has a hard deadline. Either way, they're going be developed over the year(s) prior to release. If they were going to do it in a season, they would be adding hero challenges to the maps, then all of the elites would be dropped in as its own release.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:To go along with what was said I don't trust them either, but I trust them less to make worthwhile changes to existing specs than I do for them to make new ones. You have a double edged sword here mate; The way you're looking at it you might as well just quit the game because on either side they will somehow make a mess. On one side they rework things and marginalize everything, but along with that might come homogenization and worse yet the deflowering and gutting of unique depth for each class.

At least with The elite specs we know what we are getting, and to top that off it adds competition to the current specs that are out. You can even build new elite specs around countering HoT and PoF specs and have it be that they are designed from the ground up to clap those. But then what is going to counter them? Well simply put it will be core, because core will have the tools necessary to deal and cope with the new specs. So this means they would need to add nuance to core (They are right now, every balance patch we see it happen.) So I believe what is going to happen is once episode 3 of living world is on the horizon along with it will come new specs, because by that time all the reworks and nuance needed for core to counter the new comers will be there.

Its clear E-specs are not a moneitization method, so they can and probably will come down the line in the saga. Also put the fact they have more development time to dink with them means they will come out solid and well made and not be a mess like the last two batches who still to this day need tons of fixes. (Either to bring them up, or bring them down a bit.) New content is necessary and new toys, cosmetics and all of the things in-between are 100% required for any game to thrive and survive with the for honor lead being within the dev team (Doing what I don't know) having come off of a game like for honor I have faith that some influence will trickle in.

The problem is that the elite specs don't exist in a vacuum. Newer elite specs have eclipsed both core and the first round of elites and that was by design specifically to drive sales. The level cap was never increased, armour and weapons, for many players, have remained static. The sales were driven by wanting to have the latest and best performing specs. As such this meant making everything which came before inferior in order to make the choice easy for players wishing to follow the path of least resistance. In open world PvE none of this matters because you could technically get by playing just about any character with zero traits selected. In competitive modes, and to a somewhat lesser extent in raiding, this drives metas.

Baiting people who have a built in tendency to follow the path of least resistance by dangling a clearly superior option going forward for a nomiinal fee is a prime monetisation method. Easier fights, whatever the mode, means more gain for less time invested. It's less losses in competitive modes. It's less wipes on raid bosses. The difference between completing a wing in under an hour and failing it after three or more. Those elements alone drive sales of new elite specs.

Oddly and sadly enough, homogenisation is already here thanks to elite specs. Where before we had a situation where professions used to have an identity for being built around certain mechanics/roles while being weaker at certain others - whether that's high damage, bunker, support, or crowd control we now have elites which aren't just capable in most of those roles but tops at them all at the same time.

Core Engineer used to be valued for its versatility. It's still versatile on paper but every one of its abilities is subpar and hasn't been adjusted to fit modern modes. Holosmith, on the other hand, excels in damage, excels in crowd control, and sustain even to such an extent that the Scrapper- the elite which came before and which was supposed to be a front line bunker/bruiser, has been superseded not only in those fields but also in terms of support(barring those players too attached to give their up who have settled for following their friends around spamming medkit.) Holo does just about everything well, with little trade-off or drawback, and on top of that it's a hell of a lot less fiddly to play. This had been the trend.

They've tried elites twice, it's only made things worse twice over. So if they triple down and persue it a third time well, in my opinion I figure that's just the definition of insanity, creative stagnation, and laziness - probably a little bit of all the above.

I'm not against them trying new things. That could have been accomplished, and in a much more controllable manner as far as harm done was concerned, simply releasing single new professions per expansion pack.

PvP and WvW are on their last legs. I doubt they'll take much more of this.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Elementalist*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…”

Each Elementalist weapon has at least 8 skills (for an off-hand), so you'd need at least 80 skills for 10 new weapons. In fact, you'd need more than that because there aren't 10 off-hand weapons. Also, 12 of those 50 skills you mention are attack chains for the sword that only make sense as auto-attacks, so really it's 1 main hand weapon, plus 30 other skills, which could give you at most 3 new (off-hand) weapons (with 6 skills left over). So really it would be a maximum of 4 new weapons, at the expense of the Weaver mechanic (which I'm guessing you don't like). And that's ignoring the question of whether there's a sensible way to distribute those skills across weapons like that.

This was the proposal on Ele in that thread...

“Elementalist

*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…

Attunements become *self only Toggle Buffs that affect weapon skills. Only 1 can be active at a time…

1. F1 Fire Attunement toggle- Attune to fire and gain a X% chance to cause AoE Fire burst with any weapon attack.
2. F2 Water Attunement toggle- Attune to water and gain a X% chance to heal self with any weapon attack.
3. F3 Air Attunement toggle- Attune to air and gain a X% reduction to weapon swap cooldowns and gain swiftness.
4. F4 Earth Attunement toggle- Attune to earth and gain a X% reduction to Direct Damage.

OR

Alternate Attunement ideas… Summon unique Elemental pets that have various roles and skills. Only 1 pet can be active at any time. These pets have a health bar.

1. F1- Unique Fire Element DPS pet
2. F2- Unique Water Element HEALING SUPPORT pet
3. F3- Unique Air Element NON-HEAL Support pet
4. F4- Unique Earth Element CONTROL pet

• 2 weapon slots• New E-Spec ONLY needs a max 7 new weapon skills now (and obviously 5 slot skills)• Better Condition management”

Oh, I see. That sounds like it would lead to a much blander version of Elementalist than we currently have - in fact it sounds basically like a Guardian that can only have one virtue active at once. Don't get me wrong, I agree that there are a lot of problems with Elementalist, but making it more like the other professions doesn't appeal to me as a way of fixing them.

There is nothing in that hypothetical that’s like guardian at all. And the premise of the entire idea is to get rid of the design “fat” that drastically slows profession development and gets rid of unnecessary designs that make professions extremely unbalanced.

The reason I said it sounds like a Guardian is that, to me, your passive effects for Fire, Water and Earth attunements sound very similar - both mechanically and thematically - to the passive effects of the Virtues.

I understand your motivation - and I agree with the idea that reducing the complexity of the game's systems can make adding to it more easy. In fact, that's why they reworked (and simplified) the traitline system into the specialisations system before HoT was released - so that it was possible to expand each of the professions in a way that wouldn't have worked with the original traitline system. But I think your suggestion is somewhat extreme, in that it seems to involve throwing away a lot of what's already in the game.

Also, I played a game where frameworks were the same, even offering sets of similar optional skills to choose from, yet that game had more unique builds and roles to play, and more balance. Go figure.

A quote to further explain...

@Swagger.1459 said:This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

"Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

ALL of these classes

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes

used

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance

as the main skill resource.

ALL classes had access to

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Fighting
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Flight
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leadership
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leaping
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Medicine
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Presence
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Speed
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Teleportation

ALL classes had access to

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools

or

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools

that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

ALL classes had access to

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations

and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

Also a quote from that interview...

"Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

I'm not in a position to comment on City of Heroes, having never played it, and I don't think reading some wiki articles will give me any meaningful appreciation of what the game was like, how well balanced it was, or how distinct its classes were.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:To go along with what was said I don't trust them either, but I trust them less to make worthwhile changes to existing specs than I do for them to make new ones. You have a double edged sword here mate; The way you're looking at it you might as well just quit the game because on either side they will somehow make a mess. On one side they rework things and marginalize everything, but along with that might come homogenization and worse yet the deflowering and gutting of unique depth for each class.

At least with The elite specs we know what we are getting, and to top that off it adds competition to the current specs that are out. You can even build new elite specs around countering HoT and PoF specs and have it be that they are designed from the ground up to clap those. But then what is going to counter them? Well simply put it will be core, because core will have the tools necessary to deal and cope with the new specs. So this means they would need to add nuance to core (They are right now, every balance patch we see it happen.) So I believe what is going to happen is once episode 3 of living world is on the horizon along with it will come new specs, because by that time all the reworks and nuance needed for core to counter the new comers will be there.

Its clear E-specs are not a moneitization method, so they can and probably will come down the line in the saga. Also put the fact they have more development time to dink with them means they will come out solid and well made and not be a mess like the last two batches who still to this day need tons of fixes. (Either to bring them up, or bring them down a bit.) New content is necessary and new toys, cosmetics and all of the things in-between are 100% required for any game to thrive and survive with the for honor lead being within the dev team (Doing what I don't know) having come off of a game like for honor I have faith that some influence will trickle in.

The problem is that the elite specs don't exist in a vacuum. Newer elite specs have eclipsed both core and the first round of elites and that was by design specifically to drive sales. The level cap was never increased, armour and weapons, for many players, have remained static. The sales were driven by wanting to have the latest and best performing specs. As such this meant making everything which came before inferior in order to make the choice easy for players wishing to follow the path of least resistance. In open world PvE none of this matters because you could technically get by playing just about any character with zero traits selected. In competitive modes, and to a somewhat lesser extent in raiding, this drives metas.

Baiting people who have a built in tendency to follow the path of least resistance by dangling a clearly superior option going forward for a nomiinal fee is a prime monetisation method. Easier fights, whatever the mode, means more gain for less time invested. It's less losses in competitive modes. It's less wipes on raid bosses. The difference between completing a wing in under an hour and failing it after three or more. Those elements alone drive sales of new elite specs.

Oddly and sadly enough, homogenisation is already here thanks to elite specs. Where before we had a situation where professions used to have an identity for being built around certain mechanics/roles while being weaker at certain others - whether that's high damage, bunker, support, or crowd control we now have elites which aren't just capable in most of those roles but tops at them all at the same time.

Core Engineer used to be valued for its versatility. It's still versatile on paper but every one of its abilities is subpar and hasn't been adjusted to fit modern modes. Holosmith, on the other hand, excels in damage, excels in crowd control, and sustain even to such an extent that the Scrapper- the elite which came before and which was supposed to be a front line bunker/bruiser, has been superseded not only in those fields but also in terms of support(barring those players too attached to give their up who have settled for following their friends around spamming medkit.) Holo does just about everything well, with little trade-off or drawback, and on top of that it's a hell of a lot less fiddly to play. This had been the trend.

They've tried elites twice, it's only made things worse twice over. So if they triple down and persue it a third time well, in my opinion I figure that's just the definition of insanity, creative stagnation, and laziness - probably a little bit of all the above.

I'm not against them trying new things. That could have been accomplished, and in a much more controllable manner as far as harm done was concerned, simply releasing single new professions per expansion pack.

PvP and WvW are on their last legs. I doubt they'll take much more of this.

Well why not racial classes? Start making classes based around the races and their lore? This way they do exist independently of the current classes and can be built to compete while not making those obsolete while also making the races "Mean something" which they expressed they desired to do. So You have to play X race to play X class, Ill give some examples.

• Havroun's can only be norn
• Legionnaires can only be charr
• Shining Blades(Or Dervishes?) can only be humans
• Variants can only be Sylvari
• Golemancers can only be Asuran.

This then would also put value in adding new races, because then those races would come with their own class that is unique to them with its own idenitiy. And if they wanted to go far enough they could do what they did with the revenant, making a "Racial" set of armor for the class that you unlock by unlocking the class's traitlines and skill lines. Unique weapons and if they wanted too Include two elite specs for each one, so for like Legionnaires they would get Tribune and perhaps a Flame legion inspired spec.

For Havroun's they could get a Icebrood themed spec, or maybe even a spec with summoning spiritual companions which changes how it functions because the base would be centered around shapeshifting. This way they all have their unique flavors and flares they exist outside of the current roster and maybe can only be unlocked via having a level 80 of that specific race (Can be any class) And doing a small side story? One which explains where they come from, how they came to be and why they are joining us now. Heck they could even start at level 80 for all I care....

And as the game goes on if we continued to get E-specs, we could get more. I mean the humans could go with shining blade ===> White mantle====> Devotee of the Six

Id really like this... I feel like it would be cool, and could infact entice people to play the other races because they have a purpose outside of simply cosmetics. They have something unique to them that is in its own little vacuum. I feel like this could and would be healthy for the game, we already have "Bring X class" and the whole "Human master race" where some people will make fun of you for not playing as the race they deem superior. So the whole toxicity around it already exists, trying to remove that won't work and hasn't worked. It's not worth peeling away the depth and unique qualities of a race for the sake of appeasing anyone... and none of these classes would be inherently better than the other but would bring unique mechanics and versatility to the game.

Id prefer this over E-specs, but I know they would never do that.

[Teratus.2859]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And you’re wrong, completely wrong, or just not paying attention to the past around here.

Elaborate?

Are you saying the only way we can get decent e-specs is if they also release 4 maps, new story, jumping puzzles, collections, music, dialog... and such?

No, i'm saying the only way we can get 9 new elite specs at once, done right which are not a complete balance nightmare resulting in constant balance patching or weeks-months of being broken is to have them being carefully developed and tested over a long period of time.. ergo expansion development time not living world.

Keeping them tied to expansions is also a large selling point of that content.If Anet prove that all the benefits and features of expansions can be given away for free then why the hell would anyone bother paying for the next one?

Sorry, you’re wrong. E-specs can be provided outside of an xpac. And as far as we know there aren’t any xpacs coming anytime soon, and the devs are aware players want profession updates too.

Maybe you missed this..

https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/new-expansion

I didn't miss it.

I'm not saying they can't do elite specs in the living world, what i'm saying is that if they do it's going to

1. Take another big feature of epansions away thus it will devalue the whole point of even having expansions (ergo paid content) which are already bordering on irrelevant already and not what a large number of players want.We want more expansions and we want to pay for them.

2. very likely going to cause an absolute cluster kitten of balance issues due to how much time and effort is required to develop 9 elite specsin general, let alone for episodic content.

There won't be any delays possible if the elite specs are designed to launch with a specific episode/story chaptor/map other than to delay that entire episode for potentially months.Unlike expansions which have upto a year or two of development time, living world has at best several months per episode.

It's a big risk trying to pull this off and honestly it's not worth it considering how badly it could mess up the game if they don't nail it.

[Hashberry.4510]

Players have a wide range of skill with this system; it inherently cannot be balanced in a manner that will ever satisfy the competitive content players. Balance issues are a poor argument to refuse fresh specs. Anet should stop wasting time trying to please these folks.

[Knighthonor.4061]

I am ready for Build Templates. What's taking so long I wonder.

[Swagger.1459]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And you’re wrong, completely wrong, or just not paying attention to the past around here.

Elaborate?

Are you saying the only way we can get decent e-specs is if they also release 4 maps, new story, jumping puzzles, collections, music, dialog... and such?

No, i'm saying the only way we can get 9 new elite specs at once, done right which are not a complete balance nightmare resulting in constant balance patching or weeks-months of being broken is to have them being carefully developed and tested over a long period of time.. ergo expansion development time not living world.

Keeping them tied to expansions is also a large selling point of that content.If Anet prove that all the benefits and features of expansions can be given away for free then why the hell would anyone bother paying for the next one?

Sorry, you’re wrong. E-specs can be provided outside of an xpac. And as far as we know there aren’t any xpacs coming anytime soon, and the devs are aware players want profession updates too.

Maybe you missed this..

https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/new-expansion

I didn't miss it.

I'm not saying they can't do elite specs in the living world, what i'm saying is that if they do it's going to

1. Take another big feature of epansions away thus it will devalue the whole point of even having expansions (ergo paid content) which are already bordering on irrelevant already and not what a large number of players want.We want more expansions and we want to pay for them.

2. very likely going to cause an absolute cluster kitten of balance issues due to how much time and effort is required to develop 9 elite specsin general, let alone for episodic content.

There won't be any delays possible if the elite specs are designed to launch with a specific episode/story chaptor/map other than to delay that entire episode for potentially months.Unlike expansions which have upto a year or two of development time, living world has at best several months per episode.

It's a big risk trying to pull this off and honestly it's not worth it considering how badly it could mess up the game if they don't nail it.

Yeah, sorry, it’s not some dire dire situation if they create e-specs without an xpac...

[Einlanzer.1627]

I think it's absolutely necessary we continue to get profession "expansions" of some kind, but I'm not convinced that especs are the best format for it. I like the OP's post because it's what anet needs to do - take a step back and figure out the best way to continue expanding professions, and it may very well be that especs are not the best answer for that.

IMO, we need new weapon types for core professions and we need a gradual increase in skill and trait options regardless of especs.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:I agree, since there's no expac nor new e-specs on the horizon, the dev team should put aside a bit of their time making cash shop bling and use it to polish/balance/rework the bottom ringers weapons and traits we already have. its almost as good as having new content

You do realize that the people making things for the Gem Shop are artists and designers, not devs that would work on Elites and other profession based mechanics and skills, as well as balance, those are a different job type...there fore this stuff can be worked on concurrently.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@Teratus.2859 said:@Swagger.1459 said:

4- The team can produce more balanced E-specs more regularly, and then sell those as profession E-spec pack updates... Which means players get profession updates more often while the team makes money in the process... That’s a win-win for everyone.

E-specs need to come with expansions because they need heavy testing and balancing to avoid flat out breaking the game.I maintain the stance that introducing elite specs in anything but an expansion would be a seriously bad idea and likely would screw up so much of the games balance.

To add to that the idea of selling E-specs as pack updates on the gemstore would be a monumentally bad idea.There's already some voices saying expansions are pay 2 win because of E-specs.Selling future ones on the store would be like throwing rocketfuel on that fire.. not to mention it may even drive a large number of players away from the game if their characters are locked out of new meta's and therefore unwatend in many modes PvP, Raids and other content.

There's no way players would be ok with that.

E-Specs shouldn't be obtainable via GemStore. They could work just like GW1 Campaign packs. Once you buy them, you unlock a quest for an E-Spec or just E-Spec itself.

As for the balance, seriously? Look at the PoF Specs. There were close to no changes on Specs through Beta Weekend to PoF release. What we currently have is a complete imbalance between classes. There are no excuses, it's all powercrept.While I think E-Specs could be sold separately as the additional packs to the game, in my opinion E-Specs are a bad design from the ground up.

Anyway, 10$ per E-Spec pack could work.

[Iozeph.5617]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Well why not racial classes? Start making classes based around the races and their lore? This way they do exist independently of the current classes and can be built to compete while not making those obsolete while also making the races "Mean something" which they expressed they desired to do. So You have to play X race to play X class, Ill give some examples.

• Havroun's can only be norn
• Legionnaires can only be charr
• Shining Blades(Or Dervishes?) can only be humans
• Variants can only be Sylvari
• Golemancers can only be Asuran.

This then would also put value in adding new races, because then those races would come with their own class that is unique to them with its own idenitiy. And if they wanted to go far enough they could do what they did with the revenant, making a "Racial" set of armor for the class that you unlock by unlocking the class's traitlines and skill lines. Unique weapons and if they wanted too Include two elite specs for each one, so for like Legionnaires they would get Tribune and perhaps a Flame legion inspired spec.

For Havroun's they could get a Icebrood themed spec, or maybe even a spec with summoning spiritual companions which changes how it functions because the base would be centered around shapeshifting. This way they all have their unique flavors and flares they exist outside of the current roster and maybe can only be unlocked via having a level 80 of that specific race (Can be any class) And doing a small side story? One which explains where they come from, how they came to be and why they are joining us now. Heck they could even start at level 80 for all I care....

And as the game goes on if we continued to get E-specs, we could get more. I mean the humans could go with shining blade ===> White mantle====> Devotee of the Six

Id really like this... I feel like it would be cool, and could infact entice people to play the other races because they have a purpose outside of simply cosmetics. They have something unique to them that is in its own little vacuum. I feel like this could and would be healthy for the game, we already have "Bring X class" and the whole "Human master race" where some people will make fun of you for not playing as the race they deem superior. So the whole toxicity around it already exists, trying to remove that won't work and hasn't worked. It's not worth peeling away the depth and unique qualities of a race for the sake of appeasing anyone... and none of these classes would be inherently better than the other but would bring unique mechanics and versatility to the game.

Id prefer this over E-specs, but I know they would never do that.

No, you're not wrong. this would have also been a great way to sell people, those who would otherwise never play another race, on trying one out and exploring the games's story through that particular lens.

I would have loved to see:

Norn - Skald - Given the change of the story to saga - A character similar in theme to Revenant but instead of having legends in their headspace evokes them through recitation or song. This appeals to me because the telling amd retelling of great deeds and heroes is something central to Norn culture.

Human - Corsair similar in fashion to seagoing gypsies- an insular group of humans with a long history who sailed between all coastal settlements, and still do. People who were trading, raiding and exploring the seas before the great collapse- perhaps some of the last to see Orr in all it's glory as they fled its destruction by ship. A medium armour mashup of a thief and warrior which fights without stealth, either with main hand blades or pistols, dirty tricks such as sand in the eyes, and with a new off-hand weapon- a baffle/cloak for applying crowd control to enemies via slow or confuse.

Sylvari - The Changed. A profession driven by the story events of HoT because while I believe the consequences of this story line for their race are just as far reaching if not more so than the fall of Ascalon for the Charr and the Humans, I don;t believe it's aftereffects have been given enough shrift. They'd be something of a feral or mroe neutral faction falling somewhere between regular Sylvari and the nightmare court. They'd have different cosmetic options -tendrils on their bodies which animate independently, thorns, and unique skin and patterning options as well. Perhaps some combat abilities which mimic those found in the Mordrem. Reasoning woudl be that when Mordremoth was slain they were left alive, forever altered but cut off from his influence. Similar to hive minded creatures which suddenly lose a queen, The driving force behind them is to find their place within the world

Asura - I agree wholeheartedly with an Asuran Golemancer. It's just been a logical choice from the beginning.

Charr - Given the current content, such as it is, and given that it plays a role in character creation I would have figured a Charr Shaman would have been an interesting choice. Speaking again, as with the Changed, to the theme of redemption- that being it's not about the power you wield, or where it comes from but ultimately what end you put it to.

[thepenmonster.3621]

@Hashberry.4510 said:Players have a wide range of skill with this system; it inherently cannot be balanced in a manner that will ever satisfy the competitive content players. Balance issues are a poor argument to refuse fresh specs.

If the competitive players want true balance they'll need to give up their builds and work with a collection of pre-made characters ala Overwatch.

[Halbarz.3854]

I would prefer that they balance the game:

• Reduce overall damage
• Reduce crit chance/crit damage/crit multipliers
• Rebalance boons a class can pop.
• Rebalance elite skills, they are supposed to be strong but some are just over the top.

If they would then look at every class and rework them the game would be in a waaay better place.Balance create buildcrafting which for gw2 is a big part of the content.

The ranger is a prime example at this point the question is ... do they even know what to do with it?

[Tukaram.8256]

What is an E-Specs or Xpacs?

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

@Tukaram.8256 said:What is an E-Specs or Xpacs?

'E-Specs' means elite specialisations,'Xpacs' means expansion packs.

[Kalifax.3046]

Some professions could greatly benefit from new weapons, Revenant is the most glaring one. For a "soldier profession" they mysteriously don't have much weapon training at all..Also, let Engineers swap weapons already. Maybe Elementalists too, but I'm not sure.

[Burnfall.9573]

@"Swagger.1459" said:It takes forever to produce E-Specs and balance updates are all over the place. And since the team has shifted gears from Xpacs, it’s still very important to refresh professions with regularity. There is a big problem with being able to produce and work on profession stuff, though, and it boils down to the way they were designed.

I put more details in this thread... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/71738/profession-development-path-forward-proposals, but consider and think about this...

The devs had to create roughly 50 skills for the last Elementalist E-spec... If the “formula” was changed, the team could have potentially given Elementalists almost every weapon not available to that profession currently... That was just one example, but the team makes their jobs 10x harder with E-spec production and with the follow up balancing updates as it stands.

*For reference to the above in a quote from my thread...

“PROFESSION MECHANIC CHANGES

Elementalist*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…”

The team should consider sitting down and talking about streamlining profession designs and mechanics so they can...

1- Produce E-specs more regularly.

2- Balance more effectively when core designs and foundations are the same.

3- Some weapons can be released without needing to have an associated E-spec tied to it.

4- The team can produce more balanced E-specs more regularly, and then sell those as profession E-spec pack updates... Which means players get profession updates more often while the team makes money in the process... That’s a win-win for everyone.

Edit- Again, the team makes profession development and balancing way harder than is should be, and is missing opportunities to make more players happier, and more invested into the game, while generating more revenue. These could also mean more balance can be had across profession inside of spvp and wvw modes, while reducing player resentment and cynicism towards the team.

Edit 2- And I was going to start posting quotes from threads and players here, and gaming sites like Massively OP and from their staff, to reinforce some points, but I will instead say the following are common themes and feelings from critics out there... Basically, GW2 has a super great combat system, but profession are completely unbalanced... E-specs and balance updates are too infrequent and do not address real issues... There is a real lack of role variety and professions mostly revolve around doing more DPS...

Long story short, GW2 has a great reputation for the combat system design and a poor one for profession related things. And that's not good because the characters we play are the top most important feature of this game.

+1

[hugo.4705]

Would like more weapons for my engie and elem, as part of expansion or not.