Mirage Tradeoff

[shadowpass.4236]

I think Spellbreaker's tradeoff of burst skills getting capped at tier 1 was a good idea. Mirage should still have both dodges but illusions should get capped at 2 and they shouldn't be able to dodge while hard cc'd or immobilized. Also, Mesmers should get locked out of their skills while in Distortion similar to other invuln skills like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist Form and (now) Obsidian Flesh.

[Leonidrex.5649]

Im just salty that IH still is untouched, anyone else?

[MyPuppy.8970]

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also, Mesmers should get locked out of their skills while in Distortion similar to other invuln skills like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist Form and (now) Obsidian Flesh.

I wonder how it went unnoticed... I wouldn't mind that change.

[Flapjack.7231]

Changing the distortion like that would be kinda logical. Same for the dodge while hard CC... and i think like 2 cap Illusion would be fine, but then again this would apply for pve aswell and possibly kill the spec there.

[SeikeNz.3526]

i have a better idea, mirage should have a cap of 5 clones at same time, because its a mirage

[Tayga.3192]

They didn't say it was a tradeoff, did they?

[Master Ketsu.4569]

It's seems that their method of balancing mirage is to ignore the busted mechanics and instead just nerf it to the ground until it is unplayable. While that may seem lazy, a lot of PvP focused games like SMITE or dota have done this in the past when a champion has toxic unfun mechanics they just nerf it to oblivion so that it can never be meta.

I'd rather they just rework it to something akin to GW1 mesmer.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:It's seems that their method of balancing mirage is to ignore the busted mechanics and instead just nerf it to the ground until it is unplayable. While that may seem lazy, a lot of PvP focused games like SMITE or dota have done this in the past when a champion has toxic unfun mechanics they just nerf it to oblivion so that it can never be meta.

I'd rather they just rework it to something akin to GW1 mesmer.

Yeah, this just reads as a lazy bandaid "fix." As much as I loathe Mirage, them getting 1 dodge is just silly.

[Shao.7236]

Dunno, my buddy said that he's fine with it. Saying that the Vigor uptime and Mirrors are gonna finally be used, it's almost as if Mirage was designed to be played like this with Jaunt but people just molded it to be another one shot/just evade type of gameplay.

[mortrialus.3062]

@shadowpass.4236 said:I think Spellbreaker's tradeoff of burst skills getting capped at tier 1 was a good idea. Mirage should still have both dodges but illusions should get capped at 2 and they shouldn't be able to dodge while hard cc'd or immobilized. Also, Mesmers should get locked out of their skills while in Distortion similar to other invuln skills like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist Form and (now) Obsidian Flesh.

Personally back before it got nerfed I thought Mirage Cloak should have kept 1s Mirage Cloak Duration but should lose Distortion.

You gain the benefits of mirage cloak and a longer evade that with mirrors allows you to over time get more evasion up time than the Distortion could give you, but you lose your capacity to burst out a 4 second Invulnerability. I also still wanted and still want evade while stun removed on top of that.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

relying on mirrors is dumb when you consider the basic fact that its not always feasible to actually go to where they are. not being able to double dodge is brutal on another plane. ded in wvw zergs thats for sure, not that anyone used it there but still.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Removing 50 endurance does seem like a weird way of introducing a tradeoff. Mirage cloak is still stupid and op, but only for half the amount of time now.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Removing 50 endurance does seem like a weird way of introducing a tradeoff. Mirage cloak is still stupid and op, but only for half the amount of time now.

But they can gain Cloak in other ways.

[phokus.8934]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Removing 50 endurance does seem like a weird way of introducing a tradeoff. Mirage cloak is still stupid and op, but only for half the amount of time now.

Gotta be careful about these armchair Mesmers, man.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Removing 50 endurance does seem like a weird way of introducing a tradeoff. Mirage cloak is still stupid and op, but only for half the amount of time now.

But they can gain Cloak in other ways.

yes as other classes can get dodges through other ways, mirage (esp when not using chaosline) has already less dodges than most classes by being more squishy than a lot of them and by being in general supposed to do more with its dodges than only evading attacks than all other classes. you cannot make a spec build around utilizing dodges for more than just evading attacks and then limit this base resource more than on most other classes who are not build around that resource in their spec design. it makes no sense. also btw very important: mirrors are a nice side mechanic but not well enough designed to replace normal dodges. the mirror placement is too random (since you cannot rly affect clone movement, your target affects clone movement), esp with melee clones you often have them being too near to each other to pick them up one by one when you do a 3 clone f4 shatter, you cant rly reactively use them most time because often they need a movement to their position before, their lifetime is limited so i cant even wait until i need them to pick them up etc.

also with only 50 endurance you force a more spammy use of dodge to not waste endurance reggen/ vigor when the one dodgebar is full (if you even survive long enough on squishy specs like domination/duelling power mirage). this trade-off is not a nerf (i dont mind nerfs, as long as they dont kill skillfull gameplay) it is more of a spec destruction by contradicting the whole nature and base mechanics of mirage. ist chrono treatment what just makes no sense.

ppl complain about mirage being able to dodge while stunned but dont see that this change even force me more into eating the stun because now i dont have enough dodges anymore to reactively avoid any no dmg cc and then dodge dmg skills after. also just the imagination of not being able to double dodge when needed in cleave or focus situation when more than one player attacks me is horrible as a power mirage. also it limits active and skillful kiting ability. also how am i suppose to do active and tactical plays with ih/ambushes like pure offensive dodges for some might/vulnstacks and dmg to prepare a mb burst on gs and offensive tactical outplays with sword ambsuhes when being that limited in my spec resource? after that play i have no dodge left, i sure cannot risk that. so, all in all this change makes mirage less skillful not more and also potentially more spammy in the dodge management, also makes it unhandy and unfun to use just like chrono and deletes skillful mechanics. and nerfs making specs more brainless are just a no no.

i saw the trade-off idea with clone cap limit to 2 in the pvp discord already and instantly liked it way more over the endurance one. also after thinking longer about its still my opinion that it is a way better trade-off idea.

it is still a clear nerf to the base mirage mechanic but without deleting active and skillful gameplay from comboing with ih/ambushes and without making the spec unhandy and unfun. it reduces the dmg spam on dmg ambushes from clones (what is only a problem on condi mirage anyway), makes active shattering clones more often more rewarding again (even on condi mirage, where it makes more sense to let clones live for their dmg atm) and doesnt hurt skillful combos on power mirage just as it doesnt hurt the already kinda low survivability on power mirage specs not using traitlines like chaos or inspi. that would be a trade-off that makes sense

together will all other changes to mesmer i think that is more than enough to bring even condi mirage down to a lvl it is not op anymore. and that without killing power mirage completely. if condi mirage after testing all changes live still is op for whatever reasons there is then the possibility to look at clone ambush dmg from weapons like staff/scepter and nerf the dmg there.

all other planned mesmer changes are fine on the first view, they worth going live for testing at least but the mirage cloak change is just obviously and logically bad. i would then reduce vigor duration in chaosline more (dunno why this is not planned already) and look at superior complex trait bc it somehow didnt get any dmg reduction. for wvw stamina sigil maybe should be deleted and energy sigil/adventure rune should be nerfed in wvw to current pvp lvl.

[mortrialus.3062]

While I've always maintained "Condition Mirage will find a way. It always finds a way." and it always has. And it still might. But if anything is going to kill the spec it's going to be this.

The main thing of condition mirage going to one dodge roll isn't just that it loses out on a dodge. Think about how every class including condition mirage currently play; You're inherently and unconsciously programmed to dodge once pretty flippantly and then save the second dodge roll until you really need it. Because in order to regenerate endurance at all at least some of your endurance needs to be drained. If you aren't dodge rolling at least once every 10 seconds of a fight or 7.5 seconds with vigor you're losing out on potential dodges you could have taken and thus momentum. That lack of a second dodge translates to more time you're going to squat on that completely full evade bar, which translates into your opponent regardless of build evading more of your attacks than you are of theirs. A normal build can potentially gets 5.25 seconds of evade through their dodge rolls naturally regenerating. High vigor builds can get potentially 6.75 seconds. Now granted you aren't going to be spamming dodge rolls literally every time they're available as soon as they're available. But the way the endurance system works you're incentive to use them soon.

You watch good players that are actively in a fight like Tramadex, Sindrener, Naru. Unless it's a situation where there is literally nothing threatening them coming their way they don't sit on full endurance for more than a couple seconds at most and if anything does it's always the dodge roll that gets used first. It changes the fundamental principals of how endurance is played. You are forever only in a state where you are wasting your endurance regeneration; either by wasting it by spending it before truly highest priority skills are thrown at you, for or by squatting on endurance and not spending it for seconds longer than you would on other classes ensuring the momentum of the fight is not in your favor.

Another thing is that there are so many things in the game that require double dodge. Rapid Fire on longbow ranger, you either double dodge it or you blow a blink to get behind line of sight, if you can even get one. There's so many times I've capped waterfall on Legacy and as I begin to push towards mid when a ranger runs of the graveyard staircase, and immediately tries to Point Blank Shot you into Rapid Fire. You either double dodge that or get bursted for over half your health.

Dagger Storm, 3 seconds of sustained pressure you need double dodge to deal with it and simply blinking away doesn't always help because thieves can and very much might steal or shadow step back onto you or infiltrator's signet.

All in all this particular drawback just isn't a good idea. It feels spiteful "Kill Mirage, anything will do." And some people will cheer for that. People cheered about Chronomancer going away but the point of balance is to increase the diversity of the characters and builds you see. While at the time I did not like what the primary Chronomancer was doing when it got nerfed (Power Greatsword abusing the Slow and Bonus Damage and Crit Damage Traits, basically normal power greatsword but with the damage bonus shit like Mantra of Pain were criting for 8k). And sure getting caught in a Gravity Well isn't fun. But getting caught by any attack isn't fun. And GW2 PvP is less rich with Chronomancer in the dumpster and it will be with less rich with Mirage in the dumpster.

And also, the whole idea of Drawbacks ArenaNet have fallen in love with is faulty to begin with. When elite specializations are well designed the DON'T NEED Drawbacks. Take Druid. Druid as an elite specialization is lazy focused on healing support. Your new weapon? It's 100% healing with mobility and some immobilize. Your new utilities? Have heavily focused on support and group buffing. Your traits? Heavily focus on healing, group support and some survival options like stealth, daze. Druid didn't need trade offs, because the way Druid was designed down to it's fundamental DNA means you would and could never do as much damage as a core ranger was capable of regardless of how you built your druid. It didn't need the pet stats nerf And if there are problems with Druid it's a lot, lot easier to laser focus on things specifically in the Druid's kit. Similar situation with Scrapper, as scrapper you simply cannot do as much damage as a core engineer let alone a holosmith, it's already baked into the DNA of scrapper.

Holosmith even with it's "trade off" is not a well designed elite speciation. Holosmith radically upped the damage and mobility of Core Engineer. But that's not all it did. It also had really out of place healing traits that boosted it's self healing compared to Core Engineer. It had stuff like Traited Corona Burst to give it more stability than Core Engineer. It gave it blocks it can use to cover it's attack, it has a utility that gives it 50% incoming damage and condition damage. So in exchange for one losing an Elite Toolbelt skill, none of which are game changing, holosmith gains more damage, mobility, healing, stability, and scaling defenses. That's the problem with a number of elite specializations, not arbitrarily "Oh none of the professions skills changed". And yeah, Mirage is definitely in the holosmith camp.

Mirage is designed to be a condition skirmisher that boosts both it's evade potential, condition damage potential, and mobility. So why does it have things that boost it's self sustain such as regeneration on dodge in addition to reduced incoming condition duration? Why does it have protection on dodge? Why did it come baked with Stunbreak on Dodge and Condition Damage on dodge (Let alone dodge on stun which still needs to go)? Why does it have hands down the best healing skill for mesmer in terms of both utility and the self healing? Why did it come packaged with so much weakness just with it's Mirror splashing them around? All of which directly impact both its self sustain and physical durability on top of evasion, condition damage, and mobility.

At this point you need to think about what Mirage should be doing that improves upon core mesmer and what it should lack. If it should be a more evasive skirmish with higher condition damage, the obvious answer is to make it less sustaining and less durable than core mesmer when hits do come in, let alone chronomancer. If any of the elite specializations should have gotten the reduced vitality as a draw back, it makes much more sense for it to have been Mirage that get that trait and not scrapper. That change didn't make any sense and really hurt Scrapper and just almost knocked them out of ranked entirely. Because it doesn't make sense to have Scrapper be designed to be good at being defensive and tanky and make it also kneecap itself at being defensive and tanky. This is like -300 power and condition damage as the trade off to Berserker. Or Daredevil getting -50% reduced Endurance Regeneration because it gets a 3rd dodge bar. It just literally doesn't make sense.

TLDR:

1. One Bar for Dodge Roll fundamentally alters how endurance is played with in a way that means endurance regeneration is only ever in a state where it is being wasted.
2. With dodge rolls in a state where endurance regeneration is inherently wasted in some way, enemies fighting a mirage can both maintain a dodge for important skills and dodge minor skills while regenerating more dodge rolls.
3. Trade offs are dumb, well designed elite specs never necessarily needed direct drawbacks.
4. Since Mirage is designed to be an evasive, mobile, condition damage skirmisher it makes more sense for mirage to lose sturdiness which gives it a clear weakness for the strengths it gets.
5. Mirage should keep 2 bars of endurance and lose -300 vitality, which makes more sense for mirage both thematically and gameplay wise than it ever did for scrapper. They maintain evasiveness but when hits land they matter more.
6. Two Clone Limit is a far smarter change than one dodge roll bar.
7. Dodge on stun still needs to go.

[Bazsi.2734]

Mirage tradoff seems to be: OP for 2 years after PoF release, utterly useless right after. I hate mirage with a passion (attacking while being basicly invulnerable is just the worst design ever), but this ain't how you fix it. I can't see it being played in PvP now.

[Moradorin.6217]

Lets face it. They just want to kill off pvp and wvw to save resources. The changes they are making will drive more people out of these game modes which will reduce the amount of production they have to divert to them. PvE anyone?

[Quadox.7834]

Everyone: Infinite Horizon is the problem with mirage and must be reworked!

Anet: Nerfs renewing oasis, mirage cloak, and dune cloak

[reikken.4961]

actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense

with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down

[mortrialus.3062]

@reikken.4961 said:actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense

with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down

Current meta condi mirage has less evade+invuln+block up time than meta Glint Shiro, Thief+Daredevil, Spellbreaker, and Fire Weaver. Math mathtically comes down to about 66% of what those builds can do.

[reikken.4961]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@reikken.4961 said:actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense

with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down

Current meta condi mirage has less evade+invuln+block up time than meta Glint Shiro, Thief+Daredevil, Spellbreaker, and Fire Weaver. Math mathtically comes down to about 66% of what those builds can do.

Sure. however, the uptime they do have has more practical value in several ways.teleports and target breaks and stealth buy time in between hard defensive optionsand mirage can attack while defending, so defending doesn't result in lost offensive pressure

compare to weaver for example, where a weaver using riptide poses exactly zero threat and can be attacked or forced to burn another defensive cooldown immediately after it ends due to its lack of mobility

[storm.3120]

@Quadox.7834 said:Everyone: Infinite Horizon is the problem with mirage and must be reworked!

Anet: Nerfs renewing oasis, mirage cloak, and dune cloakSurprised pikachu

[mortrialus.3062]

@reikken.4961 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@reikken.4961 said:actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense

with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down

Current meta condi mirage has less evade+invuln+block up time than meta Glint Shiro, Thief+Daredevil, Spellbreaker, and Fire Weaver. Math mathtically comes down to about 66% of what those builds can do.

Sure. however, the uptime they do have has more practical value in several ways.teleports and target breaks and

stealth

buy time in between hard defensive optionsMeta condi mirage is not running stealth. Teleports and target breaks are what helps keep condi mirage meta in the face of it's lower evade up time compared to other popular builds.

and mirage can attack while defending, so defending doesn't result in lost offensive pressurecompare to weaver for example, where a weaver using riptide poses exactly zero threat and can be attacked or forced to burn another defensive cooldown immediately

Currently so can all of the builds I listed.

Riptide into Earthen Vortex? Maybe. A fire weaver using Primordial Stance in fire and then double dodging, both dodges also pulse out fire condi blasts in themselves, poses a ton of threat. A fire weaver can lay down fire vortexes and flame walls, and then dodge, and is a threatening / zoning presence. A thief in dagger storm, or casting Flanking Strike or Pistol Whip evades is very threatening. A warrior bull's charging is very threatening. A warrior's normal dodge roll is threatening and crits as hard as the meta condi mirage ambushes while also being unblockable right now. A Rev unrelenting assaulting is very threatening. A rev pressuring you while covering himself with Infuse Light is very threatening.

[reikken.4961]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@reikken.4961 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@reikken.4961 said:actually what gives me the most issue playing against mirages is indeed the mirage cloak uptime, so I think this change is pretty solid. mirage just has way too much built in defense

with all the mirage mirrors and distorts and teleports and target breaks and stealths and endurance gain it's impossible to keep tabs on when you can actually pressure them and get a hit to land. with this change you have a short window where you can know at least one thing is down

Current meta condi mirage has less evade+invuln+block up time than meta Glint Shiro, Thief+Daredevil, Spellbreaker, and Fire Weaver. Math mathtically comes down to about 66% of what those builds can do.

Sure. however, the uptime they do have has more practical value in several ways.teleports and target breaks and

stealth

buy time in between hard defensive optionsMeta condi mirage is not running stealth. Teleports and target breaks are what helps keep condi mirage meta in the face of it's lower evade up time compared to other popular builds.

and mirage can attack while defending, so defending doesn't result in lost offensive pressurecompare to weaver for example, where a weaver using riptide poses exactly zero threat and can be attacked or forced to burn another defensive cooldown immediately

Currently so can all of the builds I listed.

Riptide into Earthen Vortex? Maybe. A fire weaver using Primordial Stance in fire and then double dodging, both dodges also pulse out fire condi blasts in themselves, poses a ton of threat. A fire weaver can lay down fire vortexes and flame walls, and then dodge, and is a threatening / zoning presence. A thief in dagger storm, or casting Flanking Strike or Pistol Whip evades is very threatening. A warrior bull's charging is very threatening. A warrior's normal dodge roll is threatening and crits as hard as the meta condi mirage ambushes while also being unblockable right now. A Rev unrelenting assaulting is very threatening. A rev pressuring you while covering himself with Infuse Light is very threatening.

Sure. And that would be a problem, but all of those skills are explicitly getting nerfed (by which I mean nerfed harder than the global -33% damage)riptide and earthen vortex are getting huge cooldown increases, primordial stance burning is getting cut in half, dagger storm damage is cut by 40% (relative to the global -33%. total cut of 60%), reckless dodge damage cut by 50% (relative), etc

However, this does make me realize that unlike every other class, rev is getting no cuts to its heal skills.edit: probably because infuse light is the main heal skill, and that scales off of damage, which is going down