Rouien.5234 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 So, everybody is uncomfortable with these changes-- of course, you can't make everyone happy and more than just a few people are saying nerf this and that. But one thing that's stuck out a lot to me and , in my opinion, is bothering me the most is people saying nerf thief over and over. Even as someone who's never played thief and rarely played against them, weren't they in a bad spot for the longest time because of the power creep? Like, because of how much boon output, cc and damage most other classes did, it was kind of death sentence for a thief to NOT be in stealth.ALSO. I heard a few person try to argue that increasing cooldowns on their skills/lowering the damage & healing on their skills is going to make them more apt to get picked off by thieves..But, Isn't like that their job? To +1 People who blow all of their defensive cooldowns and punish people for not thinking ahead (or at all) and/or rotating badly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downstate.4697 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Likewise they should be punished for messing up a burst, not fail to kill you then reset every 10 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 d/p would be perfectly fine if smokescreen was a shorter duration skill on a 35s cd. Also some of backstab damage should be transferred to heartseeker so it's not a OHKO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.You can't have all of these things at once.Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.You can't have all of these things at once.Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.You can't have all of these things at once.Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd nowend result is what matters.your logic can be applied to everything.weaver is not tanky at all! this is low toughtness class with low hp. But the end result is they have something close to 18k, and vomit heals barriers and all the dodges.Reality is that steal has really low cooldown, is almost guarantee to hit as long as you pay attention and has immense impact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.You can't have all of these things at once.Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd nowend result is what matters.your logic can be applied to everything.weaver is not tanky at all! this is low toughtness class with low hp. But the end result is they have something close to 18k, and vomit heals barriers and all the dodges.Reality is that steal has really low cooldown, is almost guarantee to hit as long as you pay attention and has immense impactWhat? I never said any of the above lol, I just stated steal alone is poo, but over loaded with traits. Also, if it does fail to land then that's half of the builds traits that become useless until steal is up again, so yeah there is a slight inconvenience to having many traits crammed into 1 skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @"Highlie.7641" said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter. If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery. Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term. a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!delusional xd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindrener.1592 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter.If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term.a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @"Highlie.7641" said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter. If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery. Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term. a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!Maybe some of the people speaking have always been on an anti-thief crusade for 8 years. After having no memory of complaining about thieves for 8 years, I find shadow arts Thieves reaching busted levels of damage and lack of counterplay in current patch.They're able to return to stealth without any risk by casting instant withdraw and dodging again. Good luck landing a reveal then even if you are trying to counter comp. This trait is the real broken power creep. Hide in Shadows is supposed to do this. This starts the reset with instant stealth on withdraw which covers the more risky task of putting down a stealth field 1000 units away and leaping/blasting it. Now withdraw is back up.They're chunking 85% total hp from an opening strike combo on Demolisher amulet foes after 20-30 seconds of being in stealth.However I don't need to suggest many additional strong nerfs and such, I think after the patch Thief backstab burst will be weakened by the blanket damage debuffs so it can't kill you solo from full HP at any point, vastly reducing the free kills Thieves are currently getting.The only additional change I'd make beyond the patch is to give the stealth on heal trait a rework. They're going to reduce the stealth but ideally it does not give stealth at all, but something quite valuable. A few ideas would be: 2 Charges of Skelk Venom, reduces Reveal by 3 seconds, creates a shorter duration Blinding Powder (2s). The key being anything but an un-preventable vanish on Withdraw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.You can't have all of these things at once.Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd nowThe end result is that you shouldn't have such possible combination. It throws anything and anyone around, there's no opportunity to pick or counter to it (Unless you count a random evade). Press the button and it's 100% effective at all time, disabling all defenses for someone and making them useless for an amount of time that in a teamfight given the entire pressure is just a free kill in the end as the whole pressure takes over, with Deadeye this is worst because it can be done twice and boost any attacks with quickness as if stealing all the defensive boons wasn't enough when you are about to get dealt over 10k damage with DJ or spammed pistol whip while immobilized and unable to retaliate at the attacker than already stole Aegis, Stability and protection from you which is also always guaranteed.This is like the perfect combination that can overcome any setups because the cooldowns are low and there's plenty means to escape and passively go back at dealing damage at the longest range possible then rinse and repeat as stealth in between all makes the whole entire combination even more safer.To deal with this you need a great deal of very very precise timings and lots of guess work/CC while stealth is in use to throw of the strategy and barely anyone can do that, let alone track pre stealth which is essential for damage as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @"Highlie.7641" said:If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery. Thieves have always been throughout the entire lifetime of the game the single hardest class to kill by any opposing build. It is not hard to survive on a thief vs anything. There's a reason every stream you watch, it's always the thief streamer who is the last to die in any fight that goes poorly, or the only one to survive and then cries "OMG Garbage teammates". Between top tier evade frame uptime tied to multiple sources, dodge roll with high vigor uptime, initiative based skills, your healing skill, multiple utility skills, unparalleled mobility, and access to stealth a thief only dies when they over commit to a fight. A thief has to choose to stay in a losing fight in order to die despite having so many different ways to escape said fight and either try again after resetting, or by rotating to a different area of the map where their presence can swing the status of the game with faster mobility than whatever they were fighting could possibly have.Now, I'm not saying thief is a brain dead profession. I think all professions take skill. Knowing when and how best to press the offense with a flexible but lower impact combat kit takes skill. When do you go in for a Pistol Whip and when do you port in with a Cluster Bomb burst? When do you go for a Flanky Strike and when do you try to zone them with Choking Gas? And the way they rotate is extremely counter intuitive if you're using to playing standard 1vX specs, team fight builds, or builds that can juggle both those rolls. There's a lot of depth and skill towards playing thief. But surviving on thief is not one of them at all and to suggest that is poppycock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 @mortrialus.3062 said:@"Highlie.7641" said:If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery. Thieves have always been throughout the entire lifetime of the game the single hardest class to kill by any opposing build. It is not hard to survive on a thief vs anything. There's a reason every stream you watch, it's always the thief streamer who is the last to die in any fight that goes poorly, or the only one to survive and then cries "OMG Garbage teammates". Between top tier evade frame uptime tied to multiple sources, dodge roll with high vigor uptime, initiative based skills, your healing skill, multiple utility skills, unparalleled mobility, and access to stealth a thief only dies when they over commit to a fight. A thief has to choose to stay in a losing fight in order to die despite having so many different ways to escape said fight and either try again after resetting, or by rotating to a different area of the map where their presence can swing the status of the game with faster mobility than whatever they were fighting could possibly have.Now, I'm not saying thief is a brain dead profession. I think all professions take skill. Knowing when and how best to press the offense with a flexible but lower impact combat kit takes skill. When do you go in for a Pistol Whip and when do you port in with a Cluster Bomb burst? When do you go for a Flanky Strike and when do you try to zone them with Choking Gas? And the way they rotate is extremely counter intuitive if you're using to playing standard 1vX specs, team fight builds, or builds that can juggle both those rolls. There's a lot of depth and skill towards playing thief. But surviving on thief is not one of them at all and to suggest that is poppycock. We have been trolled my man.I think its some sort of troll copy pasta.well played sirs, well played !EDITI wont change my previous post, Ill take the warn.Deserved for falling into the bait lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I’d point out that if you look at the proposed changes none of this will likely be an issue post-patch.Too much stealth? Too much bonus damage from certain skills? Too much Quickness? Too much boonsteal? Too much evade from Acro? All of this is being reduced in some tangible way. To the point where it’s not clear how much thief will still be able to stick around in a team fight. Even with the nerfs to CC + damage and general damage reductions, thief will still be pretty vulnerable to taking damage if they stay in one spot for too long. I’m tired of people using current damage numbers to argue thief should be nerfed even more. I’m also tired of the argument that because a good thief can maybe run away after your team wipes the entire other team, thief is OP (less likely with reveal skills, try being chased by a holo a rev and a Soulbeast after your team wipes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 the only things I don't like on teef are:heartseeker post patchde one shots in wvw, rifle/ dagger doing +105%/ 70% damage (dunno bout this post patch)rifle perma cripple and kitingvault doing 10k+ to lights in wvw (dunno bout this post patch)sword 2 immob durationthats it. plenty of things in teef actually need to be buffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 As far as the op mentioning that thief wasn’t viable- it might be true thief was less common for a bit with how good rev was, but thief was never truly weak- ppl just never realized how a pw build could just end up never dying or that 2 deadly arts thief’s would counter Fb other thief etc. thief has been incredibly strong it just took awhile to find the more optimal comp to actually run thief in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix.2386 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 so will people finally realize after 8 yeas that thief takes no skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 @saerni.2584 said:because a good thief can maybe run away...... thief is OP No no hold on you've got a point@mortrialus.3062 said:There's a lot of depth and skill towards playing thief. But surviving on thief is not one of them at all and to suggest that is poppycock. So buff thief damage when you ask to cut their survivability then.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:@"mortrialus.3062" said:There's a lot of depth and skill towards playing thief. But surviving on thief is not one of them at all and to suggest that is poppycock. So buff thief damage when you ask to cut their survivability then.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 here take a look at Square Enix- Final Fantasy 14 Ninja Job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Buff teef!I know it's hard to do especially regarding thief but try and remember a lot of players main and enjoy they class. Let's try and have it remain playable shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 @mortrialus.3062 said:@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:There's a lot of depth and skill towards playing thief. But surviving on thief is not one of them at all and to suggest that is poppycock. So buff thief damage when you ask to cut their survivability then.;) Lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widmo.3186 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Daily reminder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verskore.4312 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 @"bluri.2653" said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter.If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term.a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!thief is maybe the easiest to deal with with good team coordination and a rev and soulbeast so sit on him but otherwise that statement aint true at all though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.You can't have all of these things at once.Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd nowend result is what matters.your logic can be applied to everything.weaver is not tanky at all! this is low toughtness class with low hp. But the end result is they have something close to 18k, and vomit heals barriers and all the dodges.Reality is that steal has really low cooldown, is almost guarantee to hit as long as you pay attention and has immense impactWhat? I never said any of the above lol, I just stated steal alone is poo, but over loaded with traits. Also, if it does fail to land then that's half of the builds traits that become useless until steal is up again, so yeah there is a slight inconvenience to having many traits crammed into 1 skill.The only time you’ll evade steal from stealth, is with the help of lady luck, realistically speaking.@"bluri.2653" said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter.If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term.a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!I’m sorry but let’s be real here, you’re by far the biggest thief apologist in the game. Regardless of your personal performance in a game mode that has more to do with strategy and less to do with actually fighting people. How is anyone supposed to take your word for it? I suggest you take a stroll in a game mode about fighting and killing people, then try to push your “please don’t nerf my main”Inb4 the obligatory “who are you, i’m gud, you bad” comment. We’ve faced off on dozens of occasions and you always struck me as a runner rather than a fighter. But by all means, stick with the apologist buble. I was an apologist for my class once too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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