GG hotfix team

[PeLi.5498]

These Anet guys have no idea about WvW. So they do things. Just that. GL making GW2 great again XD

[LetoII.3782]

@aaron.7850 said:60% damage nerf and yet they will still do more damage than mesmers, thieves, rangers... etc.This is balancing, learn to live with it.

@RisenHowl.2419 saidmore than mesmers sure, definitely less than thieves and rangers.

I guess we'll have videos of you topping your arcdps on thief and ranger to look forward to

[anduriell.6280]

I agree this is not the right way to nerf scourge, it seems rushed and stupid.Same as for the wells, what's the point of the balance patch then. It's clear everything was done without any brain behind it, the ones behind the balance must think this game is only PvE.

[yin.9260]

i'm a scourge main, and i originally thought that the reduced targets on shades was going to be a huge bust on shroud dps, but when i played it this night it... honestly doesn't feel any different from how it felt to play before, which surprised me. i'm placing down all 3 of my shades and i'm still getting 20k+ dmg on desert shroud alone in big fights of over 1 min.

really appreciate the nerfs now that people are being discouraged to blob with tons of scourges. makes playing as a scourge fun now that i can get into melee fights without going up against 24/7 pirate shipping like how it was on Tuesday night ^^

[Aeolus.3615]

Shades has a aoe damage were a bad concept to beggin with(game was already onverloaaded with aoe having it 5-5 or 10-10(as some wanted) would be bad for the game), this change seams decent enough that m8 lead to a better future changes to the shades.

note: Next nerf will be blood bank :}

@RisenHowl.2419IMO the better option in balance is to make scourges less needed to stack, or by other words making it "useless" when u stack so many that most of them loose their afect in party, scourge was used for barrier, stack as much aoe u can, healing(was freaking strong in the past) and a few other things.

Maybe this change will lead to other changes in future to put necro outside the only aoe class u have to stack and has many u can mentality....

[T G.7496]

@yinn.2317 said:i'm a scourge main, and i originally thought that the reduced targets on shades was going to be a huge bust on shroud dps, but when i played it this night it... honestly doesn't feel any different from how it felt to play before, which surprised me. i'm placing down all 3 of my shades and i'm still getting 20k+ dmg on desert shroud alone in big fights of over 1 min.

really appreciate the nerfs now that people are being discouraged to blob with tons of scourges. makes playing as a scourge fun now that i can get into melee fights without going up against 24/7 pirate shipping like how it was on Tuesday night ^^

Yeh, I derped around on mine last night and it felt fine. More finessed, actually.

Still doesn't explain why they would effectively delete a GM trait; it is, now, utterly useless.

Also, the changes might lead to a really boring bunker meta - we ran into a bit of that, too, last night, and it was kinda absurd.

Oh, and even if this whole debacle was only because someone forgot to include the mode split in the initial patch, it's still extremely embarrassing for a 'balance team' whose work is under so much scrutiny now, and has not been stellar.

[yin.9260]

Still doesn't explain why they would effectively delete a GM trait; it is, now, utterly useless

oh yeah, if there was any part of the nerfs that i dislike it has to be the insane blow to Sand Savant. before the patch hit on the 7th Sand Savant was still kinda useless, but one could argue for the ease of the bigger aoe. now though, there's literally no reason to not run Feed from Corruption.

Also, the changes might lead to a really boring bunker meta - we ran into a bit of that, too, last night, and it was kinda absurd.

hopefully this won't be the case with the nerfs that came out. Tuesday night was just an absolute trainwreck to play as a Revenant with tons of scourges just dropping shades and wells and corrupting the shit out of everything on my guild's 18 member squad.

Oh, and even if this whole debacle was only because someone forgot to include the mode split in the initial patch, it's still extremely embarrassing for a 'balance team' whose work is under so much scrutiny now, and has not been stellar.

agreed. this was a huge screw-up on anet's part, but maybe... just maybe they'll learn something from this mess. i've only played since March, and this patch just left me with a bad taste in my mouth in regards to anet's ability to balance anything with any foresight.

[mixxed.5862]

@yinn.2317 said:

Still doesn't explain why they would effectively delete a GM trait; it is, now, utterly useless

oh yeah, if there was any part of the nerfs that i dislike it has to be the insane blow to Sand Savant. before the patch hit on the 7th Sand Savant was still kinda useless, but one could argue for the ease of the bigger aoe. now though, there's literally no reason to not run Feed from Corruption.

I think the reasoning is that if they left big shade at 3 targets or more, everyone would run that trait on their dps scourge. While small shade is more fun and big shade is meant to be the choice for support builds. In the future they could give it an increased number of allied targets: Still only hits 2 enemies, but 5 allied targets.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

if anything they'll be core or reaper, both get better mileage than scourge after the nerf

And Reaper gives less utility to the group. No cleanse/condition conversion, no barrier, no stability (Path of Anguish), no mini-portal (Sand Swell), no Ghastly Breach, and the cleave damage for Reaper is at melee range vs. 1100 units (900 + 180 radius) for Scourge shades.

You're just talking about how much damage Scourge doesn't do now while ignoring all the group utility Scourge brings that Reaper doesn't. Now it seems like there is a choice between Reaper and Scourge depending on what you want more: barrier, utility and ranged DPS vs. higher melee DPS. And while Reaper has access to Axe , Scepter, Well of Corruption et al, they can't be used while in Reaper Shroud, which creates a problem when your comm calls out for Axe 3 corrupt while you're busying spinning+winning.

I don't have enough experience with Core to debate its ability to compete with either Elite in a zerg.

While we will have to wait and see, I feel if instead of every Necro in the squad being Scourge as it is now, if half of them change to Reapers, I genuinely don't see that as a problem.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Acyk.9671 said:Prepare for melee gameplay and be destroyed by reaper/soulbeast within WoD. Hahaha good times ahead

Well, on a positive side, ANET just saved me 500 gems. Back in December I took my Necro full on Reaper, but use the second equipment slot for a Heal Scourge set for Strikes and the odd meta, etc. When they announced the shade revert, I was thinking of buying a 3rd equipment slot so I could play Scourge in WvW again, but I don't think that's going to be necessary since I already love Reaper, and it looks like it will be in higher demand.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Acyk.9671 said:Prepare for melee gameplay and be destroyed by reaper/soulbeast within WoD. Hahaha good times ahead

Well, on a positive side, ANET just saved me 500 gems. Back in December I took my Necro full on Reaper, but use the second equipment slot for a Heal Scourge set for Strikes and the odd meta, etc. When they announced the shade revert, I was thinking of buying a 3rd equipment slot so I could play Scourge in WvW again, but I don't think that's going to be necessary since I already love Reaper, and it looks like it will be in higher demand.I'm sure Anet will be horrified when the read this and revert it in another hotfix.

[RedShark.9548]

@Acyk.9671 said:Prepare for melee gameplay and be destroyed by reaper/soulbeast within WoD. Hahaha good times ahead> @mixxed.5862 said:

@yinn.2317 said:

Still doesn't explain why they would effectively delete a GM trait; it is, now, utterly useless

oh yeah, if there was any part of the nerfs that i dislike it has to be the insane blow to Sand Savant. before the patch hit on the 7th Sand Savant was still kinda useless, but one could argue for the ease of the bigger aoe. now though, there's literally no reason to not run Feed from Corruption.

I think the reasoning is that if they left big shade at 3 targets or more, everyone would run that trait on their dps scourge. While small shade is more fun and big shade is meant to be the choice for support builds. In the future they could give it an increased number of allied targets: Still only hits 2 enemies, but 5 allied targets.

Sand Savant shouldn't increase enemy target nor radius in the first place, only increase allied target to 5.3 enemy target was fine, 2 is killing the spec

id say indeed good times ahead, melee gameplay was always more fun than pirateshipping, which is boring AF

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

if anything they'll be core or reaper, both get better mileage than scourge after the nerf

And Reaper gives less utility to the group. No cleanse/condition conversion, no barrier, no stability (Path of Anguish), no mini-portal (Sand Swell), no Ghastly Breach, and the cleave damage for Reaper is at melee range vs. 1100 units (900 + 180 radius) for Scourge shades.

You're just talking about how much damage Scourge doesn't do now while ignoring all the group utility Scourge brings that Reaper doesn't. Now it seems like there is a choice between Reaper and Scourge depending on what you want more: barrier, utility and ranged DPS vs. higher melee DPS. And while Reaper has access to Axe , Scepter, Well of Corruption et al, they can't be used while in Reaper Shroud, which creates a problem when your comm calls out for Axe 3 corrupt while you're busying spinning+winning.

I don't have enough experience with Core to debate its ability to compete with either Elite in a zerg.

While we will have to wait and see, I feel if instead of every Necro in the squad being Scourge as it is now, if half of them change to Reapers, I genuinely don't see that as a problem.

What support is scourge giving now? 2 target personal shade means you'll apply barrier and cleanses to yourself+1 person standing next to you. Why would you bring that over a rev or spellbreaker, both of which can now remove boons faster while offering better damage and better group support?

The support scourge brings over reaper isn't worth doing half the damage of a reaper. I'm fairly sure core can both out damage and out corrupt scourge now too, it was only a little worse than scourge before for condi builds. Core also brings a nice unblockable aoe corrupt and an aoe immob in melee range to complement bubble trains.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[nthmetal.9652]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:I think when the community asked for nerfs to make sure scourge wouldn't push out every other melee class, they didn't mean 'remove scourge from wvw entirely'?

3 target shades makes sense, that's 12 possible targets with 3 perfectly placed shades and you in melee range, a very unlikely bomb to land. 6 targets with sand savant isn't awful either.

but... 2 targets? a perfectly placed three shade bomb hits 8 people, realistic play is 2-4 targets. What would even be the point?

So 2x3 targets (which is > 5 targtets) counts as a nerf these days? I am not sure my math agrees.Yes, they need to be perfectly placed. But so did the shades before, when you had to decide between range and melee. And it showed. Scourges did typically hog top or high spots in DPS and strips. Yes, warriors can outstrip them, but look where they typically end up damage-wise, if they do. And yes, revs, good soulbeasts and probably more professions can greatly outdamage scourges, but look where they appear in terms of strips, heals or cleanses.There was a good reason the typical "ideal" squad compo was: fb, healer (ele or scrapper), rev (or sometimes spb) and .... 2x scourge. Raising the number of overall targets would not have done this justice.The one thing I might agree on is that big shades should probably 3 targets - but then again I main warrior and I have a defense traitline with 2 passive traits with a 300 second cooldown. So ... suck it up?

[RisenHowl.2419]

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:I think when the community asked for nerfs to make sure scourge wouldn't push out every other melee class, they didn't mean 'remove scourge from wvw entirely'?

3 target shades makes sense, that's 12 possible targets with 3 perfectly placed shades and you in melee range, a very unlikely bomb to land. 6 targets with sand savant isn't awful either.

but... 2 targets? a perfectly placed three shade bomb hits 8 people, realistic play is 2-4 targets. What would even be the point?

So 2x3 targets (which is > 5 targtets) counts as a nerf these days? I am not sure my math agrees.Yes, they need to be perfectly placed. But so did the shades before, when you had to decide between range and melee. And it showed. Scourges did typically hog top or high spots in DPS and strips. Yes, warriors can outstrip them, but look where they typically end up damage-wise, if they do. And yes, revs, good soulbeasts and probably more professions can greatly outdamage scourges, but look where they appear in terms of strips, heals or cleanses.There was a good reason the typical "ideal" squad compo was: fb, healer (ele or scrapper), rev (or sometimes spb) and .... 2x scourge. Raising the number of overall targets would not have done this justice.The one thing I might agree on is that big shades should probably 3 targets - but then again I main warrior and I have a defense traitline with 2 passive traits with a 300 second cooldown. So ... suck it up?

So you have a video of a scourge landing 3 shades on a moving zerg then? The other guy said the same thing but couldn't find one =D

And again, for the third(?) time in this thread, I'm all for scourge nerfs. 2 targets makes the class unusable though.

[God.2708]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:I think when the community asked for nerfs to make sure scourge wouldn't push out every other melee class, they didn't mean 'remove scourge from wvw entirely'?

3 target shades makes sense, that's 12 possible targets with 3 perfectly placed shades and you in melee range, a very unlikely bomb to land. 6 targets with sand savant isn't awful either.

but... 2 targets? a perfectly placed three shade bomb hits 8 people, realistic play is 2-4 targets. What would even be the point?

So 2x3 targets (which is > 5 targtets) counts as a nerf these days? I am not sure my math agrees.Yes, they need to be perfectly placed. But so did the shades before, when you had to decide between range and melee. And it showed. Scourges did typically hog top or high spots in DPS and strips. Yes, warriors can outstrip them, but look where they typically end up damage-wise, if they do. And yes, revs, good soulbeasts and probably more professions can greatly outdamage scourges, but look where they appear in terms of strips, heals or cleanses.There was a good reason the typical "ideal" squad compo was: fb, healer (ele or scrapper), rev (or sometimes spb) and .... 2x scourge. Raising the number of overall targets would not have done this justice.The one thing I might agree on is that big shades should probably 3 targets - but then again I main warrior and I have a defense traitline with 2 passive traits with a 300 second cooldown. So ... suck it up?

So you have a video of a scourge landing 3 shades on a moving zerg then? The other guy said the same thing but couldn't find one =D

And again, for the third(?) time in this thread, I'm all for scourge nerfs. 2 targets makes the class unusable though.

Timestamp ~3min 5s since these stupid forums don't allow direct timelinks.

Really just need to land 2 + yourself for 6 targets which is both a reasonable target count and not exceptionally difficult to pull off.

It really doesn't affect scourges all that much beyond making other necro specs actually usable because they can finally be better than the scourge at something. Very little corruption goes on in shades now unless you were landing triple mini shades (which you keep saying is super duper difficult, and it is). So scourges lost a lot of targets on a bomb that was pretty mediocre to begin with post feb patch. Maybe people will stop spamming shade skills all at once and use them for their actual niches. Scourges will still corrupt better, depending on how all in they want to go in on it. Still have the most interesting and strongest supporting/corrupting utilities. Still offers feed from corruption for even more purity of purpose. Barrier took a hit but maybe that will shut up the 'OMG BOON BALL INVULN' people a little.

overall more healthy than it was, and it will still be around because ghastly breach is disgusting.

[Drefster.8609]

And a bomb kit scrapper, could already output 2-4x the sustained damage spamming 1 damned skill.

[Shiyo.3578]

Skills team :)

[Anchoku.8142]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:I think when the community asked for nerfs to make sure scourge wouldn't push out every other melee class, they didn't mean 'remove scourge from wvw entirely'?

3 target shades makes sense, that's 12 possible targets with 3 perfectly placed shades and you in melee range, a very unlikely bomb to land. 6 targets with sand savant isn't awful either.

but... 2 targets? a perfectly placed three shade bomb hits 8 people, realistic play is 2-4 targets. What would even be the point?

So 2x3 targets (which is > 5 targtets) counts as a nerf these days? I am not sure my math agrees.Yes, they need to be perfectly placed. But so did the shades before, when you had to decide between range and melee. And it showed. Scourges did typically hog top or high spots in DPS and strips. Yes, warriors can outstrip them, but look where they typically end up damage-wise, if they do. And yes, revs, good soulbeasts and probably more professions can greatly outdamage scourges, but look where they appear in terms of strips, heals or cleanses.There was a good reason the typical "ideal" squad compo was: fb, healer (ele or scrapper), rev (or sometimes spb) and .... 2x scourge. Raising the number of overall targets would not have done this justice.The one thing I might agree on is that big shades should probably 3 targets - but then again I main warrior and I have a defense traitline with 2 passive traits with a 300 second cooldown. So ... suck it up?

So you have a video of a scourge landing 3 shades on a moving zerg then? The other guy said the same thing but couldn't find one =D

And again, for the third(?) time in this thread, I'm all for scourge nerfs. 2 targets makes the class unusable though.

I am for WvW nerfs to Scourge as well but this patch was dumb.

Arenanet made a Scourge grand master trait have a negative adjustment to base WvW shades when disabling it would have been perfectly fine along with shade target count reduction. Scourge needed shades nerfed because there are too many boons to corrupt. That made their original attempt to have Scourge control boon spam and support with barrier an abject failure.

To make matters worse, instead of disabling the wells trait in WvW, which made the wells-Necro a glassy part of GWEN since 2012, they deleted it in all game modes and replaced it with another penalty trait. Vampyric Rituals could have been disabled for WvW and not caused this much ruckus. A grand master trait which survived 8 years was just deleted and replaced with trash when it could have been turned off or had its target count reduced in WvW.

No good Necro would deny Scourge needed a heavy nerf in WvW (because the dev's failed to control their fluffy boon power-creep) but penalizing other game modes for WvW balance is short-sighted, unnecessary, and shows more people need to leave the company.

[briggah.7910]

still have 2 dodges though

[Sleepwalker.1398]

If only there was this much uproar when Mirage got neutered.Oh wait, there aren't 10-15 Mirages in a 50 man zerg.But, lets cry for nerfs anyway. :)

[Sovereign.1093]

Scourge is optional to have in your squad now. Reaper is more viable. Core even

The change is so strong that the team we used to fight who can dent us with their bombs just can't anymore unless they outnumber us

[nthmetal.9652]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:So you have a video of a scourge landing 3 shades on a moving zerg then? The other guy said the same thing but couldn't find one =D

And again, for the third(?) time in this thread, I'm all for scourge nerfs. 2 targets makes the class unusable though.

And one dodge makes Mirage unusable. Honestly, first I don't care. Secondly, look at any WvW zerg video from the last year and the sea of red when you attempt to push, or push yourself. Yes, of course it is not guaranteed all that stuff hits. But enough of it did hit.

Yes, I am very aware that 4 (! - in words: FOUR - not TWO) targets are split between two different areas, and I do realize that this especially relieves ranged pressure. Something that melee classes could do little to nothing against. But when the zerg pushes, there is still a lot of pressure and zones going on, and that's when you want it to be on. Yes, it isn't guaranteed that you hit with all 4 targets. But guess what? My hammerburst isn't guaranteed to hit its 5 targets either. It is not persistent, but only momentary. It can only occur where I am - and if I am CC'd before the impact, that impact actually never happens. And it deals no damage.

If 4 targets make scourges unusable, I've been playing a profession that has been unusable since the last big balance patch.

A little less ranged pressure is good - and if the scourge nerf actually means there is a lot less ranged pressure, congratulations: We have just adressed a big problem in the meta of the last year. Of the last two years, because it means they were having too great of an impact. Other classes should also contribute to the ranged pressure.A little less ranged pressure is good, because two zergs dancing in front of each other, left and right, looking for the right moment to push, isn't especially fun. Yes, your ranged characters have something to do, but the rest are just sitting there, waiting for the action to happen.

Of course we don't want melee to simply power through everything; however I still see a lot of red, and I still see it hurting, so I am not overly worried about ranged becoming utterly irrelevant. And maybe with this current change we have the chance to adress the fact that we still need one firebrand in every squadgroup, otherwise that group is pretty much unable to do anything.