Blood Bank: Anet, this is Design Failure

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:I see nothing wrong with traits that rely on group support. It adds additional depth to builds, theoretically. Getting additional barrier in shroud also sounds like something you would want. As a Scourge maybe less so, since you will probably cap it by yourself already.

Right, but those aren't the issues outlined by the original post.

Your point is the trait doesn't offer anything on its own.. I replied that in theory it should be fine for a trait/skill to do that...

Depends what the trait does ... are you of the opinion that it's fine for THIS trait? I don't agree. I'm actually STRUGGLING to think of use scenarios that would make me think I want to use this trait:

1. Opening a fight with a heal (which is a STUPID mechanic)
2. Opening a fight with Dagger 2 (OK sure, that does work)
3. Hanging in range hoping for stray AOE heals from noobs popping them early in WvW. (That's a pretty expensive trait slot for that kind of impact)
4. Overhealing in PVE team instances (which means you didn't need the barrier anyways since you are at full HP)

The whole question in my mind is what benefit do we get from maintaining 100% HP ... because that's the only think this trait does for you. Overhealing is bad ... EVEN if Anet turns it into temporary damage mitigation.

Nope, Blood Bank is steaming hot garbage juice.

I think the potential PvE use is what annoys me the most; Necro with Protection Wells was essential to surviving oneshot mechanics because even if the party has a dedicated healer, sometimes the damage exceeds a player's maximum health (especially on Ele, Guard, Thief). The only way to deal with such situations is with the Protection boon, barrier, or ideally both; something unique Scourge could bring.

Sometimes you can get lucky with Aegis from Guard but only if the damage isn't from multiple hits.

Now we're back to the only viable role for Necros in PvE being a DPS Power Reaper who has even more ways to survive everything while the rest of the party wipes, which means even less reasons to buff our lackluster damage.

It's not like necro was the only protection source nor it was used as such in PvE. Pretty much every healer were already superior at that.Barrier has been used to protect against almost one-shotting mechs, though. Note: almost, as true one-shot mechs hit 300% of character's health flat if Kitty remembers correctly. (Deimos' Mind Crush as example)

But, as pointed out by some, its real use is sustained self-heals as well as effectively working as buffer/+20% more incoming healing during heavy damage pressure. Gotta remember that if barrier absorbs damage, it's pretty much proactive healing and barrier that expires counts as overhealing as well. Scrapper was a good example of this already before the balance patch.

[anduriell.6280]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:Actually the trait doesn't seems to be designed to to provide a big chunk of barrier once, but to provide constant barrier ticks taking advantage from other effects:Does it work with heals from food?Does it work with heals from runes and sigils?Does it work with all the healing traits?

It doesn't work from Healing Food.It doesn't work off of Dolyak signet passive.It works off of traits like Vampiric and Vampiric Aura.

Also it works off of the passive life steal from Signet of Vampirism.And as others have pointed out, it works from healing granted to you by other players (Empower before push is one that especially comes to mind).

Then I have to agree the trait is butchered and totally useless in competitive game modes. Without being able to accumulate that extra barrier from food and runes ticks it's missing its initial impact, and after that the necro will not be at full hp most of the time so it would not benefit from that trait.In pve there is not need of such trait. So this is another useless trait and a waste of development time.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Pregnantman.8259 said:You wouldn't benefit from the movement speed while engaging the enemy all that much IMO, and your 1800 barrier might as well be 0 as you would get that much from 5 enemies who wouldn't let you keep such a measly amount or run away with or without the speed bonus.

It's true, but anyway, however we put it, the trait don't lead to interesting results.

[Alik.9651]

I think it will be more "fun" if Anet change the function to and would like to stick with "barrier":Gain barrier as 50% of your LF gained, gain LF when you consume barrier (33% when being hit, 66% when auto-dismiss).Barrier you applied last longer. Double the barrier gain from any source when you below 50% health.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Alik.9651" said:I think it will be more "fun" if Anet change the function to and would like to stick with "barrier":Gain barrier as 50% of your LF gained, gain LF when you consume barrier (33% when being hit, 66% when auto-dismiss).Barrier you applied last longer. Double the barrier gain from any source when you below 50% health.

This would make LF gained from death broken which in result would make the necromancer (more) broken in WvW zergling.

[Machineuzi.5604]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Pregnantman.8259 said:You wouldn't benefit from the movement speed while engaging the enemy all that much IMO, and your 1800 barrier might as well be 0 as you would get that much from 5 enemies who wouldn't let you keep such a measly amount or run away with or without the speed bonus.

It's true, but anyway, however we put it, the trait don't lead to interesting results.

Yeah I agree, this trait is dead by arrival. Any benefit that could be gained from this is overshadowed by picking anything else IMO.

[Galmac.4680]

More and more I see this trait change as something completely different: ANet thinks the necro is too powerful and they want to nerf it again and again. So this time they looked at builds and saw something useful and replaced it with something (almost) useless.I haven't wondered if blood bank would be only available to scourges.

[pah.4931]

Honestly, across the board, I believe Anet is bad at designing traits. It is a very uninspired RPG design system that I would like to see overhauled completely in the next expansion.

[Skotlex.7580]

@LucianDK.8615 said:How does this work with the inability to be healed in shroud?

If this trait would trigger with any incoming heals while in shroud, then I'd consider it fine. It would make thematic sense as it's a trait for wasted heals (out of shroud at 100% life, or while in shroud, both share the property that any healing is wasted).

[Stand The Wall.6987]

nvm pls delete

[Dadnir.5038]

@"pah.4931" said:Honestly, across the board, I believe Anet is bad at designing traits. It is a very uninspired RPG design system that I would like to see overhauled completely in the next expansion.

I would phrase it differently, "they have nice ideas that translate poorly in the game". I think that the issue of ANet is that they do not follow this saying:

There is a distinction, but no opposition, between theory and practice. Each to a certain extent supposes the other. Theory is dependent on practice; practice must have preceded theory.Sir William Hamilton, 9th Baronet

[Dirame.8521]

Anyone thought of Blighter’s boon? When a target is chilled or below 50% that’s a lot of might you will be stacking with your spin to win as a reaper and therefore more barrier

[Black Storm.6974]

Personally, I enjoyed many of the traits designed by ArenaNet (especially the ones not entirely offensive).Unfortunately they are not always useful and sometimes they get destroyed by balance patches, and they don’t get touched again for years, if ever.An example is Blighter’s Boon, very limited since the nerf, because the only boon Necromancer could reliably apply was Might, and not with “every build”.A better example is what remains of Sand Savant in competitive modes after the nerfs, now we can choose it as a self handicap, and it is a Grandmaster trait.

About Blood Bank, for future balance I’d like if they could at least split the effect of the trait into two effects:

• n percent of self healing is converted to barrier when Health is full.
• n percent of incoming healing from allies is converted to barrier when Health is full.

I hope these effects can be balanced separately, splitting them could avoid future balance problems (problems like the percentage being tuned down to 50% because of allies support, making the trait even worse for self support). That’s my priority, I don’t expect a full rework of Blood Bank to happen soon.

Then well, I’d also appreciate something for when we are not at full Health.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Dirame.8521 said:Anyone thought of Blighter’s boon? When a target is chilled or below 50% that’s a lot of might you will be stacking with your spin to win as a reaper and therefore more barrier

You still need to be at 100% health to get anything out of the trait. This might you'll get it from dealing damage, often at melee range, agaisnt a foe that will retaliate.

[pah.4931]

While I think blood bank needs work, I still contend that the whole line needs work. Siphon effects need to be way more impactful and dagger needs to be buffed (my and oh). For blood bank to be worth it, it at least needs some sort of "while you have barrier" effect...

[Asum.4960]

If they want this to be a GM it absolutely needs additional effects, like Barrier doesn't time out after 5 seconds anymore and instead lasts until actually used up by damage, allowing to you know, Bank Barrier.

What's also problematic is that a lot of skills with healing effects don't actually "heal" when already on full health, therefor also not triggering the Barrier of the Trait. It appears that not all healing is coded to "overheal".

So either that needs to be addressed, or ideally make the Trait function regardless of Health, but lower the amount of healing to barrier conversion - similarly to having juiced up Sanctuary Runes.Another or additional option to elevate this Trait to a GM would be for the Trait to grant a damage reduction/increase, or some other buff, while having Barrier.

In general though and as it is now, the Trait is fairly redundant in PvE and in the competitive Modes the last thing Necro needs is more reliance on Supports while getting completely steamrolled alone. As other's have said, it's a win more Trait. If you are in a fight where you get value out of this Trait, it's probably one you would have won anyway - and if you are getting pressured and struggling, it does nothing for you.Beyond some extremely niche cheesing of the Trait I just don't see any uses for it, and it's sad to see once again an interesting and at least situationally useful and build enabling Trait be removed for something that's dead on arrival in most if not all Gamemodes.

It's getting tiring watching Anet spend time working on taking things out of the game, rather than adding to it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:I see nothing wrong with traits that rely on group support. It adds additional depth to builds, theoretically. Getting additional barrier in shroud also sounds like something you would want. As a Scourge maybe less so, since you will probably cap it by yourself already.

Right, but those aren't the issues outlined by the original post.

Your point is the trait doesn't offer anything on its own.. I replied that in theory it should be fine for a trait/skill to do that...

Depends what the trait does ... are you of the opinion that it's fine for THIS trait? I don't agree. I'm actually STRUGGLING to think of use scenarios that would make me think I want to use this trait:

1. Opening a fight with a heal (which is a STUPID mechanic)
2. Opening a fight with Dagger 2 (OK sure, that does work)
3. Hanging in range hoping for stray AOE heals from noobs popping them early in WvW. (That's a pretty expensive trait slot for that kind of impact)
4. Overhealing in PVE team instances (which means you didn't need the barrier anyways since you are at full HP)

The whole question in my mind is what benefit do we get from maintaining 100% HP ... because that's the only think this trait does for you. Overhealing is bad ... EVEN if Anet turns it into temporary damage mitigation.

Nope, Blood Bank is steaming hot garbage juice.

I think the potential PvE use is what annoys me the most; Necro with Protection Wells was essential to surviving oneshot mechanics because even if the party has a dedicated healer, sometimes the damage exceeds a player's maximum health (especially on Ele, Guard, Thief). The only way to deal with such situations is with the Protection boon, barrier, or ideally both; something unique Scourge could bring.

Sometimes you can get lucky with Aegis from Guard but only if the damage isn't from multiple hits.

Now we're back to the only viable role for Necros in PvE being a DPS Power Reaper who has even more ways to survive everything while the rest of the party wipes, which means even less reasons to buff our lackluster damage.

It's not like necro was the only protection source nor it was used as such in PvE. Pretty much every healer were already superior at that.Barrier has been used to protect against almost one-shotting mechs, though. Note: almost, as true one-shot mechs hit 300% of character's health flat if Kitty remembers correctly. (Deimos' Mind Crush as example)

But, as pointed out by some, its real use is sustained self-heals as well as effectively working as buffer/+20% more incoming healing during heavy damage pressure. Gotta remember that if barrier absorbs damage, it's pretty much proactive healing and barrier that expires counts as overhealing as well. Scrapper was a good example of this already before the balance patch.

But it was used as such in PvE in low-man content, like running dungeons and T1-T3 Fractals with 2-3 people. Not everyone runs things in five person groups, especially since people leave or go AFK etc even in full parties, so you need to be prepared for harder fights.

And there's very few sources of permanent Protection in the game. Guard, Ele, Engi, Ranger and Rev all have limited uptime. Due to the way Necro Wells work, they were 24/7 Protection for allies with no gaps, plus many other effects such as healing, reviving, converting conditions to boons, removing boons from enemies (Dredge and some instabiilties), stacking Might, etc.

Yes the build was off-meta, but it was one of the few Necro support builds used at all.

[Dirame.8521]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Dirame.8521" said:Anyone thought of Blighter’s boon? When a target is chilled or below 50% that’s a lot of might you will be stacking with your spin to win as a reaper and therefore more barrier

You still need to be at 100% health to get anything out of the trait. This might you'll get it from dealing damage, often at melee range, agaisnt a foe that will retaliate.

Blighters gives you health whilst in Shroud. The idea works extremely well for PvE and will work in PvP as long as certain conditions are met. Funnily enough, that’s how a lot of builds in PvP work. We seem to be complaining that this trait isn’t as powerful as we want it to be, instead of brainstorming ways to make it powerful.

Not all traits are going to fit our PvP mindset perfectly. And not all traits are going to be useful across the board. The nature of the beast unfortunately. This trait though, I think it can work if you just give it a chance.

Here’s my hat in the ring:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEgEWosC2G7g5xKxk1SrpB-z5gfGZKDKVJoyB

The idea is to jump into a fight activate your well to gain quickness, use that quickness to pull people in and use chilled to the bone then shroud 4 spin to win. This only works if you are moving from the back line rather than running headfirst.

[Wisty.4135]

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:Change functionality to: whenever you gain health from a necromancer's life stealing ability or trait, gain an equal amount of barrier as well. Your wells apply Protection to all allies in their areas when cast.

The prot on wells was the thing I miss the most from this. As a support build (if a little memey), being able to provide near 100% prot uptime for a subgroup (or an entire pvp team) on top of heals, lifesteal and regen made core necro super useful as an offheal+tank in these situations. As the trait it is now, it's just a 100% feelsbadman in pvp, and takes SO much more work to get value out of in raids.... where you'd 100% want to take transfusion anyways when this is the alternative.

Anet, please revert this trait. I respect the desire to make the choices more meaningful, but this trait change has made only once choice have any meaning at all.

[Brujeria.7536]

I agree, this might be the single worst trait in the game. It gives a benefit only when you dont need it and doenst help you when you need help. I wouldnt even want this as a minor trait.

[Lahmia.2193]

These types of traits are my guilty pleasure.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Brujeria.7536 said:I agree, this might be the single worst trait in the game. It gives a benefit only when you dont need it and doenst help you when you need help. I wouldnt even want this as a minor trait.

Soul Comprehension still exists.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:I agree, this might be the single worst trait in the game. It gives a benefit only when you dont need it and doenst help you when you need help. I wouldnt even want this as a minor trait.

Soul Comprehension still exists.

To Soul Comprehension's credit, it is not a grandmaster trait.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:I agree, this might be the single worst trait in the game. It gives a benefit only when you dont need it and doenst help you when you need help. I wouldnt even want this as a minor trait.

Soul Comprehension still exists.

To Soul Comprehension's credit, it is not a grandmaster trait.

True. I personally will say that Soul Comprehension is the worst trait in the game and Blood Bank is a tight second, though easily the worst Major and/or Grandmaster trait in the game.

[Rykros.9130]

Wtf you all even talking about locust signet + BB and sand flare being enhanced by it are literally quite amazing. It makes blood magic do just as good as death magic in wvw zerg fights for instance. With a good setup - locust will take you from half hp in the middle of a fight to full hp and 9k barrier as well as ripping 10 boons. You all just don't know how to utilize it well.