NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Cyninja.2954]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:In short: you rave about an event, while not even partaking or being in the loop of how the current WvW communities respond to it. At best just going out a bit and getting your gank in. Yet you think your opinion is carried by a majority of the current players?

At least you are honest.

so you are saying that, after all these years of no new major (safety net, because mounts are content in a way) content and same old gameplay loop and also some same old veteran players, mindset evolved to a completely different level? i don't believe you.

Those are 2 different issues. I'm saying: you have no clue what you are talking about and making things up on what you believe might be the case. Where as I have talked with actual players active in this mode right now.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:On a class which is literally made useless or requires significant investment for a 1 week event to remain playable as damage dealer. I don't blame any elementalist main who skips this event, even less if they are new to the mode and have no alternative builds.

elem is considered as the hardest class to master. and you have people frustrated that they can't use mist bility while downed as part of their core gameplay.. something is wrong. elem is in a hard spot and arenanet will rework some of its mechanic or balance some numbers for its sake. (a big forum post was made dedicated to elem balancing and apparently with devs responding to people on it.)but funny enough, someone on this forum (on this thread?) clamied that he/she was having a great time with his elem with the no downstate event.i did play some elem a few weeks ago and, while it was hard to have the same impact as other class, i was able to stand ground against most class except guard. maybe some players need to rethink they builds and train their personal skill.

You played an elementalist outside of the no downstate week. Congratulations. I have too. It's not hard to be top dps in a public. Damage elementalist is not being run in GvG or organized squads outside of no downstate, even less with.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Pretty much impossible to get through 4-5 (stealth) roamers who go full burst and get back to squad. Most players who can't deal with this simply log after 2-3 tries.

git gud? change you build to try and counter them? use reveal ability? get escorted by pewpew? kill a thief that will not get odwned then invisible and revived by a fellow theif?that was something anyone would saw often in the early years of WvW. you could see anything before. now you only see bus and lost roamers.

I didn't say I had issues. I have enough gear, legenarys and characters and side builds to deal with pretty much any change thrown at me. I said some players don't want to deal with this. Those players leave. You offer no solution to that loss.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, entire segments of build and abilities made useless. You forgot to add: engaging T3 objectives has become very tiresome. The amount of ACs built pretty much instantly reaches the siege cap. Tons of trailing players just unloading into your group, which require regular turn arounds to remove, slowing down smaller squads.

i forgot the "WvW is less tactical without downed state"if players would create a little squad to keep theirmain fort under attack so they can't use the teleport while you bus is grinding away the T3 and revived the dead players with out of combat players then you would push. instead of mono balling and praying that it will wrok like always.

You have obviously not taken a single defended T3 objective this event cycle. All I am going to say: your suggestion is rubbish.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You keep bringing this up. Yet willfully ignore the issue that has come of it: mandatory 1 FB per group, and Arenanet not touching the stability they give, even though it was panned.

FB came out with POF. stab change came.. before HOT? i don't remember well ^^ but it is an old update.here's the difference. FB is one class with specific mechanic. changing stab impact the whole game and all class.

Double guards in groups.... I was not aware I had to explicitly mention every single approach to deal with your mentioned change which had "no effect" on the game mode. Firebrand literally "fixed" an issue created by the stability change years later. The other issue being: that only guardian can provide adequate amounts of group stability to this day.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Arguing that bad changes will have no effect is a stupid argument to make.

this will be a good change, not a bad one. and what i am saying is that, if the change is bad, if it is not bad enough, people will still stay and play the game for the reasons i mentionned.

You have not yet shown how this will be a good change. Neither by being believeable that you have extensive current ingame experience, nor by addressing issues currently in game.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Actually, I think a lot of people will come out of this event quite happy about downstate and the way it works. All this event does is reinforce how necessary downstate is for a majority of the players who play this mode more casually.

only those who firmly believe that downstate should stay as it is. there is alot of example of people changing their mind about downstate after experiencing this event.

Yeah, no. But you may believe what you want. Who am I to tell you otherwise.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Removal is not the same as change.

it is still a change. and a big one at that. but i am not blind. downedstate is an arenanet thing. it will be hard for them to suddenly decide to erase that mechanic completely. but they can balance it. completely removing rally bot and revinving downed while in battle could be a good start.then maybe rebalance some class donwstate autoattack. (necro, cough cough, ranger cough, cough, ...)

Yes, I have full confidence that the developers will devote the resources necessary to re-balance the entire WvW mode with no downstate in mind. It will come right after alliances and the fix of all problems we have had in WvW for years.

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:The 5-6 man blue group I solo fended off hills a few hours ago would have beaten me if it not had been for no downstate. KEEP NO DOWNSTATE :)

While I applaud your success. Honest question: do you think this kind of defenders benefit is healthy?

PS. a decent burn firebrand is able to do this even outside of no downstate week.

[Jilora.9524]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Uncomfortable truth:

These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

[Jeran.6850]

@"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

elem is considered as the hardest class to master. and you have people frustrated that they can't use mist bility while downed as part of their core gameplay.. something is wrong. elem is in a hard spot and arenanet will rework some of its mechanic or balance some numbers for its sake. (a big forum post was made dedicated to elem balancing and apparently with devs responding to people on it.)but funny enough, someone on this forum (on this thread?) clamied that he/she was having a great time with his elem with the no downstate event.i did play some elem a few weeks ago and, while it was hard to have the same impact as other class, i was able to stand ground against most class except guard. maybe some players need to rethink they builds and train their personal skill.

I have to comment this. No, not the "git gud" part that much (of course you do very well on ele, what else is there to be expected...). What did you play? Cele Tempest or Fire Weave, or...? And have you been able to not only "hold your ground", but actually kill someone, by like a 50% chance? Anyhow...

Its you mentioning the "Concerns about Elementalist"-Thread.

That thread is maybe the biggest class-relevant thread ever made. Its going on almost exactly for two years now (August 16. 2018 to August 14. 2020), with 853 replies, and 43k views. As far as i remember, Arenanet showed up somewhere around the end of August 2018, to tell the ele community how much they care (about our concerns), to then stay (almost) dead silent. Even more so, some pretty hefty nerfs had been given to the class during these two years - stab removed on stance use, heal coefficients lowered, the changes to the arcane traitline.. and many more, on top of the already existing, most unfair nerf to their signature skill (so to say), Meteorshower, which, albeit an rng skill, and its humongous cast time (while rooted), gets its damage lowered by 10% from the second hit, and additional 10% damage less for each and every Meteor hit following. As far as i know, its the only skill in the game that rewards opponents to NOT react to something, that once was the among the most important area-denial skills in the game - but funny enough, even if you do ZERO damage with a Meteor hit (taken up by the scourges shared barrier for example), the ele surely have still to eat the retal-damage of ALL HITS.Thats how much Arenanet cares about our concerns, and how they listen. You say Arenanet will do a rework, if the downstate will be removed? I highly doubt it, and i am sure, most ele players doubt that too.

[Jilora.9524]

And why is everyone's argument always we outnumbered. How can you always be outnumbered and why do you think you should always win when outnumbered. Sometimes I'm outnumbered sometimes I got more sometimes way more. Under no scenario can they perm remove ds w/o changes a ton of things so enjoy the 1 week every 2 years you get to play the most toxic no skill no brain needed builds and frustrate all the newbies in there for double exp.

[Balkarrie Legacy.9175]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Arrow carts has becomed a lethal monster

no they havent , because the bullcrap never-ending sustain damage removal instant health regeneration shyte that pervades wvw ignores anything less than about 5 Sup acs firing on a single group of less than 6

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The only thing good about this event is stealth users get beaten promptly instead of stealth-reviving each other or using their own downed skills to port away and stealth in some place no one can easily notice. Other than that, my earlier commentary stands.

[Jeran.6850]

@"Jilora.9524" said:And why is everyone's argument always we outnumbered. How can you always be outnumbered and why do you think you should always win when outnumbered. Sometimes I'm outnumbered sometimes I got more sometimes way more. Under no scenario can they perm remove ds w/o changes a ton of things so enjoy the 1 week every 2 years you get to play the most toxic no skill no brain needed builds and frustrate all the newbies in there for double exp.

Its even worse. There are classes that can quite easily get into a 1v3, or even more, and still get kills, unharmed. That argument of outnumbered fights doesnt even fit them, and its get worse and worse knowing, that these days most roamers run in (mostly guild) groups.Their argument is that its unfair that 5 people can press "f" on a downie they downed by a class/build already able to win 1v3, but they do run 3+ people still, most likely on ts, which of course ALL combine their damage on a single set target here ... then come to the forum complaining its the rezzing that is unfair.

[XenesisII.1540]

I have no horse in this race, as I don't get killed often, and I get my fair share of kills in roaming or zergs so fine with it either way.

But I find it funny people asking for down state to be taken out when other popular games are putting it in, like most of the battle royale games and other coop games. Mind you as mentioned it's fine in small group scenarios and zergs is really where the problem is (cept for roamers who all think they should be able to 1v3 anyone and everyone). And funny when people complained about mount stomps which got the game closer to no down state.

Also funny when people say to get good and stop relying on that crutch, when the same could be said for them to get good and manage down states better with stealth stability or cc, especially if you're using a class that has stealth to basically get a free stomp off, these are usually the high burst classes too.

Downstate will most likely not be taken out, going by the comments of the community, it's really a split issue. Only suggestion I could make is maybe only one person be able to res a person at a time, and not a group which makes the res process super faster. There's already a set number of people that can res one person so maybe lower it to 1 in wvw, that would cut down on the super speed res by big groups, but it would also cut down on the opportunities to cc bomb those res groups... but meh.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Those are 2 different issues. I'm saying: you have no clue what you are talking about and making things up on what you believe might be the case. Where as I have talked with actual players active in this mode right now.

and i didn't? please..

You played an elementalist outside of the no downstate week. Congratulations. I have too. It's not hard to be top dps in a public. Damage elementalist is not being run in GvG or organized squads outside of no downstate, even less with.

that's the point. elem is better with no downstate. also, i am a roamer/duelist. i rarely play bus, more like taking part of fights without commiting to the bus as i usually play either solo, in small squads or with guild mates in and off guild raids.tho i haven,t participated in any GvG since years. but that is irrelevent. i don't see what GvG has to do with that anyway since it is always equal fights of 15v15. and the main point of no downstate is to make outnumbered less unbearable.also, sorry but, those elem who can't play their class in this event should maybe rebuild it from scratch or git gud. it is not like it has become unplayable suddenly because you can't abuse mist ability while downed to get a free revive from a group...

I didn't say I had issues. I have enough gear, legenarys and characters and side builds to deal with pretty much any change thrown at me. I said some players don't want to deal with this. Those players leave. You offer no solution to that loss.

what about the player that left after the overall 33% damage nerf all accross WvW? or because they don't have mounts? or hate it? or for whatever reason they didn't liked the new patch?maybe those players should try and learn how to, before thorwing the towel because of a little fence in front of their road.

You have obviously not taken a single defended T3 objective this event cycle. All I am going to say: your suggestion is rubbish.

it was an often used strategy years ago when WvW was still somewhat a competitive thing (in players mind) and still well populated. now all i see is whinning at the first difficulty encountered because no one want to separate from the bus.

you also had group of hunters camping near the spawn to slow down the enemy bus reinforcement.you has guild group taking out undefended castles when the main bus was either staling for time or tried to take a more valuable structure...

nothing like that nowerdays. its only one big bus and lost roamers all around (i may have already said that).

i understand what you are saying, that you lose too many players to focus fire while already having trouble piercing through the T3 walls and doors. but at least it is now not a one sided massacre until the defenders are big enough.. and maybe it is time to change builds (not neccessary stats, just weapons and abilities to adapt for the change).

Double guards in groups.... I was not aware I had to explicitly mention every single approach to deal with your mentioned change which had "no effect" on the game mode. Firebrand literally "fixed" an issue created by the stability change years later. The other issue being: that only guardian can provide adequate amounts of group stability to this day.

so you agree that having one particular class/build as mandatory to work around an "issue" the game has is a problem right? also you know that anet did that to prevent CC invulnerability right? but now you have FB boonball that negate those changes... well then time to nerf FB stability. (:D)

You have not yet shown how this will be a good change. Neither by being believeable that you have extensive current ingame experience, nor by addressing issues currently in game.

i already have made a full thread about it.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/112218/no-downstate-event-is-the-most-fun-i-had-in-wvw-for-a-very-long-time

Yeah, no. But you may believe what you want. Who am I to tell you otherwise.

its litteraly here, on this forum threads talking about this event and even on reddit. we may not agree at all on but at least don't blind yourself.

Yes, I have full confidence that the developers will devote the resources necessary to re-balance the entire WvW mode with no downstate in mind. It will come right after alliances and the fix of all problems we have had in WvW for years.

to be fair, if no downstate can fix most WvW problems (at least partially, like outnumbered, rally bot, player cautiosness, more teamplay, finding the rigth burst builds to nerf, etc) then the path to take is clear.

While I applaud your success. Honest question: do you think this kind of defenders benefit is healthy?

yes, because that means that downstate carried them until they realised they were not good enough without it. maybe they will now try to improve themselves instead of thinking that they are good because of one PvE mechanic. :)

PS. a decent burn firebrand is able to do this even outside of no downstate week.

this is a balance problem. and no, 1v5 is impossible to do unless the 5 players are at noob level with atrocious builds.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"Jeran.6850" said:

I have to comment this. No, not the "git gud" part that much (of course you do very well on ele, what else is there to be expected...). What did you play? Cele Tempest or Fire Weave, or...? And have you been able to not only "hold your ground", but actually kill someone, by like a 50% chance? Anyhow...

Its you mentioning the "Concerns about Elementalist"-Thread.

That thread is maybe the biggest class-relevant thread ever made. Its going on almost exactly for two years now (August 16. 2018 to August 14. 2020), with 853 replies, and 43k views. As far as i remember, Arenanet showed up somewhere around the end of August 2018, to tell the ele community how much they care (about our concerns), to then stay (almost) dead silent. Even more so, some pretty hefty nerfs had been given to the class during these two years - stab removed on stance use, heal coefficients lowered, the changes to the arcane traitline.. and many more, on top of the already existing, most unfair nerf to their signature skill (so to say), Meteorshower, which, albeit an rng skill, and its humongous cast time (while rooted), gets its damage lowered by 10% from the second hit, and additional 10% damage less for each and every Meteor hit following. As far as i know, its the only skill in the game that rewards opponents to NOT react to something, that once was the among the most important area-denial skills in the game - but funny enough, even if you do ZERO damage with a Meteor hit (taken up by the scourges shared barrier for example), the ele surely have still to eat the retal-damage of ALL HITS.Thats how much Arenanet cares about our concerns, and how they listen. You say Arenanet will do a rework, if the downstate will be removed? I highly doubt it, and i am sure, most ele players doubt that too.

well, i played berserker fresh air sceptre/focus and condi necrophage D/D, mostly.. with tempest.i have to agree with you on every thing you said. but, what i was trying to say is that , there is enough diversity in gw2 builds that you can still find combinations of builds and stats to be at least okay at killing or surviving in small scale battles with no downstate. in bus fights, elem condi is quite okay but the sheer amount of cleanse make it difficult to make any significent bombing. you re then doing a rangers job in condi version instead of impacting with the blob. (sceptre/focus for blob play, D/D is too... risky and staff just sucks.)

i didn't realised that this elem thread has gone for a very long time. or i guess i forgot. well...

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Jeydra.4386 said:I've played Ele for years and this is certainly a nerf. Keep in mind that the Ele downed skill #2 is the strongest of all the downed state skills, so removing it certainly hurts them.It also renders the scrapper's Function Gyro pretty much useless and doesn't give the player a way to replace it.

didnt know we used function gyro for the res part

[Kylden Ar.3724]

VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:What this (and in game discussions) boil down to is:

Remove downstate: mostly people running cheese buids, playing thief, ranger, mesmer. Claim to be good because they can gank others out of stealth and without the fear of any danger at all.

Keep downstate: everybody else.

I am fine with removing downstate under the following conditions:

Eles get +10k hpThief, mesmer, ranger damage gets nerfed by 60%. Maximum stealth: 1s. No blinks.Holos are removed from the game.

Simple stuff. Really.

Oh, good, I was afraid we'd make it an entire WvW thread without you asking to have whole specs people paid for removed from the game. You've been harping on Stealth being removed for almost 8 years now. Don't you think you should stop beating that ded horse Centaur (we all know no horses in Tyria!) and maybe just learn to play around some classes being, you know, stealthy?

I mean, what DO you play? You could ask for tips to deal with stealth abilities and burst classes. Are you trying to play WvW with Zerker gear or something? Are you built to zerg but trying to roam? Really, we'll help if you will just stop crying about this already. It's old.

@"XenesisII.1540" said:And funny when people complained about mount stomps which got the game closer to no down state.

This right here!

You all GOT the "your downstate doesn't matter!" tool, and then you all yelled till it was taken away! Make up yer kitten minds!

[urd.8306]

That doesn't make him wrong about the issues. Stealth is the biggest problem this game has and not since HoT or PoF but the release of the game. Even I as a maybe mediocre thief player was able to survive a 1v2 in classic GW2 and down at least one of them.You could even run full Valk or Berserker and Pistol/Dagger or Dagger/Dagger and not much has changed to stealth since then. Yes, sentries are annoying for the 1 minute they exist but that's basically it.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@diomache.9246 said:That doesn't make him wrong about the issues. Stealth is the biggest problem this game has and not since HoT or PoF but the release of the game. Even I as a maybe mediocre thief player was able to survive a 1v2 in classic GW2 and down at least one of them.You could even run full Valk or Berserker and Pistol/Dagger or Dagger/Dagger and not much has changed to stealth since then. Yes, sentries are annoying for the 1 minute they exist but that's basically it.

Stealth is part of some classes defense kit. So, fine, we can take it out of the game as long as we either remove the same level of defense kit from other classes, or replace stealth with a new defense kit.

So, which would you prefer?

Theives with Invulnerability, or take it away from Warrior.

Maybe mesmer's should have stealth replaced with more instances of Aegis! That would be fun wouldn't it?

Again, it's been almost 8 years. If they were going to remove stealth it would have been long gone by now. Let this idea die. Move on. Maybe take up knitting.

[ASP.8093]

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:I dont see what all the fuss is about. The pros and cons of downstate are very simple.Pros of downstate:

• Your friends can rez you in combat when you mess up
• Some classes have op downstate skills
• Noobs get ganked about 5 seconds slower

Cons of downstate:

• Makes 1vX fights exponentially more difficult
• Makes support classes in small scale incredibly powerful
• Turns many large scale fights into rally wars

To summarize: If you are someone who always needs to be combat rezzed, then downstate is good for you. If not, then no downstate is better. If im being honest, gw2 has heavily catered to the most casual of players and it shows. Wvw downstate is one of the cheesiest cheat death mechanics ive seen in any competitive game. Downstate was designed for 5v5 conquest, wvw would be fine without it.

Pros:

• Forces groups to actually try to take and hold ground instead of just seeing who can throw more burst damage downrange during a short window of unblockability.
• Small group fights have phases: downs are essentially mini-objectives both sides have to react to.

Cons:

• Downstate invuln window, condi clear, and special CC interaction rules cause weird irregularities in how different builds interact with downed enemies.

N.B. I'm not saying this to try to protect the status-quo "boonball" meta. I just think the "boonball pirate ship" that I've been seeing instead is worse.

[Naxos.2503]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:I dont see what all the fuss is about. The pros and cons of downstate are very simple.Pros of downstate:

• Your friends can rez you in combat when you mess up
• Some classes have op downstate skills
• Noobs get ganked about 5 seconds slower

Cons of downstate:

• Makes 1vX fights exponentially more difficult
• Makes support classes in small scale incredibly powerful
• Turns many large scale fights into rally wars

To summarize: If you are someone who always needs to be combat rezzed, then downstate is good for you. If not, then no downstate is better. If im being honest, gw2 has heavily catered to the most casual of players and it shows. Wvw downstate is one of the cheesiest cheat death mechanics ive seen in any competitive game. Downstate was designed for 5v5 conquest, wvw would be fine without it.

Pros:

• Forces groups to actually try to take and hold ground instead of just seeing who can throw more burst damage downrange during a short window of unblockability.
• Small group fights have phases: downs are essentially mini-objectives both sides have to react to.

Cons:

• Downstate invuln window, condi clear, and special CC interaction rules cause weird irregularities in how different builds interact with downed enemies.

N.B. I'm not saying this to try to protect the status-quo "boonball" meta. I just think the "boonball pirate ship" that I've been seeing instead is worse.

Most objective post so far. Refreshing

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:The 5-6 man blue group I solo fended off hills a few hours ago would have beaten me if it not had been for no downstate. KEEP NO DOWNSTATE :)

While I applaud your success. Honest question: do you think this kind of defenders benefit is healthy?

PS. a decent burn firebrand is able to do this even outside of no downstate week.

This is the first time in a looong time I could do it so yeah I think it is. If it was something I dont normally able to do (ie burnbrand) then I would change my answer. We all know how unbalanced burnbrand is anyway lol.

[Cyninja.2954]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Those are 2 different issues. I'm saying: you have no clue what you are talking about and making things up on what you believe might be the case. Where as I have talked with actual players active in this mode right now.

and i didn't? please..

You haven't, and it doesn't take a lot for someone who actually player actively multiple roles in this mode to notice. Just like some of your suggestions clearly betray that you have spent 0 time in this game mode this week besides "roaming" occasionally.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You played an elementalist outside of the no downstate week. Congratulations. I have too. It's not hard to be top dps in a public. Damage elementalist is not being run in GvG or organized squads outside of no downstate, even less with.

that's the point. elem is better with no downstate. also, i am a roamer/duelist. i rarely play bus, more like taking part of fights without commiting to the bus as i usually play either solo, in small squads or with guild mates in and off guild raids.tho i haven,t participated in any GvG since years. but that is irrelevent. i don't see what GvG has to do with that anyway since it is always equal fights of 15v15. and the main point of no downstate is to make outnumbered less unbearable.also, sorry but, those elem who can't play their class in this event should maybe rebuild it from scratch or git gud. it is not like it has become unplayable suddenly because you can't abuse mist ability while downed to get a free revive from a group...

Sure, what ever you say. You are the one actually lacking current experience, yet somehow knowing how players should be playing and what classes are capable of.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I didn't say I had issues. I have enough gear, legenarys and characters and side builds to deal with pretty much any change thrown at me. I said some players don't want to deal with this. Those players leave. You offer no solution to that loss.

what about the player that left after the overall 33% damage nerf all accross WvW? or because they don't have mounts? or hate it? or for whatever reason they didn't liked the new patch?maybe those players should try and learn how to, before thorwing the towel because of a little fence in front of their road.

Damage nerf? Was that before or after the power creep from HoT and PoF? I hope you are not refering to the one earlier this year. Because from a pure build variety, it had 0 effect on classes or playstsyle.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You have obviously not taken a single defended T3 objective this event cycle. All I am going to say: your suggestion is rubbish.

it was an often used strategy years ago when WvW was still somewhat a competitive thing (in players mind) and still well populated. now all i see is whinning at the first difficulty encountered because no one want to separate from the bus.

Yes, people also used to blast field while melee training each other. The game has changed a lot since 7 years ago. You might want to actually play some current WvW, because as is, your actuall experience with this mode is lacking, badly.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:i understand what you are saying, that you lose too many players to focus fire while already having trouble piercing through the T3 walls and doors. but at least it is now not a one sided massacre until the defenders are big enough.. and maybe it is time to change builds (not neccessary stats, just weapons and abilities to adapt for the change).

No downstate literally favors defenders. In a fight which already favored defenders. I could explain even further, but why bother? You seem very clear on your opinion while literally having not played 1 second in this content.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Double guards in groups.... I was not aware I had to explicitly mention every single approach to deal with your mentioned change which had "no effect" on the game mode. Firebrand literally "fixed" an issue created by the stability change years later. The other issue being: that only guardian can provide adequate amounts of group stability to this day.

so you agree that having one particular class/build as mandatory to work around an "issue" the game has is a problem right? also you know that anet did that to prevent CC invulnerability right? but now you have FB boonball that negate those changes... well then time to nerf FB stability. (:D)

I agree that players know that they need to be able to counter CC. I agree that players who were against the change, had a valid point. I agree in that the change made a class a requirement in any proper group setup. What I disagree with is how you portray this as though players were clueless and complaining about something without reason. The result pretty much proves that players were right.

It's similar to this situation in that:Sure, players will be able to adapt to a permanent no downstate. It would mean go more tanky for all classes. Roaming would be pretty much dead, squad fights would extend into infinity. Somehow I am not sure you have actually thought through what a permanent no downstate would actually mean for the mode. You're assuming that the free kills and farm you get right now would still exist. It would not.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You have not yet shown how this will be a good change. Neither by being believeable that you have extensive current ingame experience, nor by addressing issues currently in game.

i already have made a full thread about it.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/112218/no-downstate-event-is-the-most-fun-i-had-in-wvw-for-a-very-long-time

You've made a thread about how you had the most fun in a long time. Didn't you just claim that you were inactive in this mode for a long time? Yes, congratulations, you are having fun ganking people left and right. You might also notice, not everyone agrees with your assessment in the thread you started.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, I have full confidence that the developers will devote the resources necessary to re-balance the entire WvW mode with no downstate in mind. It will come right after alliances and the fix of all problems we have had in WvW for years.

to be fair, if no downstate can fix most WvW problems (at least partially, like outnumbered, rally bot, player cautiosness, more teamplay, finding the rigth burst builds to nerf, etc) then the path to take is clear.

You literally just lined up a few points you believe to be important. Claim that no downstate somehow magically solves them, then call it a day. Let me make it very simple: if you assume that there is going to be a balance patch as big as would be needed to make permanent no downstate possible, you are either oblivious to how much work would have to be done, or insane.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While I applaud your success. Honest question: do you think this kind of defenders benefit is healthy?

yes, because that means that downstate carried them until they realised they were not good enough without it. maybe they will now try to improve themselves instead of thinking that they are good because of one PvE mechanic. :)

ah yes, downstate carried the noob players and the pro player won. Meanwhile in a different situation:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:PS. a decent burn firebrand is able to do this even outside of no downstate week.

this is a balance problem. and no, 1v5 is impossible to do unless the 5 players are at noob level with atrocious builds.

it's a balance problem since 1v5 is not possible.

I love how you change your opinion based on what you claim. 1v5 as a condi Firebrand is just as possible as using an AC during a no downstate week. The condi FB can context and deny the ressurecting of downstate players, which he can burst down with high burn pressure earlier. Basically mimicking a no downstate scenario. Funny how in one case you are fine with this and for it, in the next it's a balance issue.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:I dont see what all the fuss is about. The pros and cons of downstate are very simple.Pros of downstate:

• Your friends can rez you in combat when you mess up
• Some classes have op downstate skills
• Noobs get ganked about 5 seconds slower

Cons of downstate:

• Makes 1vX fights exponentially more difficult
• Makes support classes in small scale incredibly powerful
• Turns many large scale fights into rally wars

To summarize: If you are someone who always needs to be combat rezzed, then downstate is good for you. If not, then no downstate is better. If im being honest, gw2 has heavily catered to the most casual of players and it shows. Wvw downstate is one of the cheesiest cheat death mechanics ive seen in any competitive game. Downstate was designed for 5v5 conquest, wvw would be fine without it.

Pros:

• Forces groups to actually try to take and hold ground instead of just seeing who can throw more burst damage downrange during a short window of unblockability.
• Small group fights have phases: downs are essentially mini-objectives both sides have to react to.

Cons:

• Downstate invuln window, condi clear, and special CC interaction rules cause weird irregularities in how different builds interact with downed enemies.

N.B. I'm not saying this to try to protect the status-quo "boonball" meta. I just think the "boonball pirate ship" that I've been seeing instead is worse.

There are other mechanics that are used to hold and control positions though, downstate just makes it easier for groups to recover when they get caught or overextend. If fights were just about bombing the enemy before they bomb you then people would die regardless of downstate or not, and every fight would end after the first push.

Downstate makes sense in pvp when the main objective is capture points and the match is fairly balanced. In wvw it just gives even more of an advantage to the side with more people and supports. When its possible to get a rez off faster than you can stomp, it just makes it impossible to finish downs unless you can boon rip and cc everyone rezzing half a second after the person goes down, and most classes cant do that.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Jeydra.4386" said:I've played Ele for years and this is certainly a nerf. Keep in mind that the Ele downed skill #2 is the strongest of all the downed state skills, so removing it certainly hurts them.It also renders the scrapper's Function Gyro pretty much useless and doesn't give the player a way to replace it.

didnt know we used function gyro for the res part

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/FunctionGyro(tool_belt_skill)

Seriously the moronic posturing in this thread by people who don't even understand the mechanics of the classes/specs they pretend to "main" is just mind blowing.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Jeydra.4386" said:I've played Ele for years and this is certainly a nerf. Keep in mind that the Ele downed skill #2 is the strongest of all the downed state skills, so removing it certainly hurts them.It also renders the scrapper's Function Gyro pretty much useless and doesn't give the player a way to replace it.

didnt know we used function gyro for the res part

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Function

Gyro

(tool_belt_skill)

Seriously the moronic posturing in this thread by people who don't even understand the mechanics of the classes/specs they pretend to "main" is just mind blowing.

-------------- <joke

O < ur head/|\/\

[ASP.8093]

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Downstate makes sense in pvp when the main objective is capture points and the match is fairly balanced. In wvw it just gives even more of an advantage to the side with more people and supports. When its possible to get a rez off faster than you can stomp, it just makes it impossible to finish downs unless you can boon rip and cc everyone rezzing half a second after the person goes down, and most classes cant do that.

You can just as easily solve that problem by tweaking numbers (any combination of: revive rate, max people reviving, downed hp, rally, downed penalty) as by removing the whole downed state, though.

Personally, I'd like to see an event where getting downed gives you 50% or 75% "downed penalty" instead of the usual 25%, possibly with the downed penalty duration extended a little as well. Basically standard gameplay but with an increased rate of attrition.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Those are 2 different issues. I'm saying: you have no clue what you are talking about and making things up on what you believe might be the case. Where as I have talked with actual players active in this mode right now.

and i didn't? please..

You haven't, and it doesn't take a lot for someone who actually player actively multiple roles in this mode to notice. Just like some of your suggestions clearly betray that you have spent 0 time in this game mode this week besides "roaming" occasionally.

you are getting on my nerves. i don't like you condescending attitude. i did enough playing to realise what you are still blind to.if your sole argument is attacking my potential lack of experience then you are in the wrong.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You played an elementalist outside of the no downstate week. Congratulations. I have too. It's not hard to be top dps in a public. Damage elementalist is not being run in GvG or organized squads outside of no downstate, even less with.

that's the point. elem is better with no downstate. also, i am a roamer/duelist. i rarely play bus, more like taking part of fights without commiting to the bus as i usually play either solo, in small squads or with guild mates in and off guild raids.tho i haven,t participated in any GvG since years. but that is irrelevent. i don't see what GvG has to do with that anyway since it is always equal fights of 15v15. and the main point of no downstate is to make outnumbered less unbearable.also, sorry but, those elem who can't play their class in this event should maybe rebuild it from scratch or git gud. it is not like it has become unplayable suddenly because you can't abuse mist ability while downed to get a free revive from a group...

Sure, what ever you say. You are the one actually lacking current experience, yet somehow knowing how players should be playing and what classes are capable of.

anyone can play what they want. but if they play a horrible build and then complain, the only thing i can say is, git gud. i am lacking experience in the sense that i hav'nt played extensively elem, and not alot of builds at that. but i sill found at least one that can still play decently in this event.again it seems like all you can do is personaly attacking my knowledge of the game instead of counter argumenting.i don't care about GvG as it is not a supported gamemode AND it has nothing to do with outnumbered or the chaotic nature of WvW.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I didn't say I had issues. I have enough gear, legenarys and characters and side builds to deal with pretty much any change thrown at me. I said some players don't want to deal with this. Those players leave. You offer no solution to that loss.

what about the player that left after the overall 33% damage nerf all accross WvW? or because they don't have mounts? or hate it? or for whatever reason they didn't liked the new patch?maybe those players should try and learn how to, before thorwing the towel because of a little fence in front of their road.

Damage nerf? Was that before or after the power creep from HoT and PoF? I hope you are not refering to the one earlier this year. Because from a pure build variety, it had 0 effect on classes or playstsyle.

hey make some efforts please. the BIG damage nerf we got this year that changed ALOT of power builds and nerfed the amount of one shot burst build available.claiming it has no effect on lcasses and playstyle is the worst argument you could pull off here. very good for your credibility.(a few example before you claim i speak for nothing:thief can't one shot most class as they could before,engi rifle became trash (as power core engi btw)most autoattack (especially ranged ones) does soo much less damage that previous autoattack builds arn't viable anymore.sniper gameplay changed from kneeling to running around spaming 2 instead of 3 with rifle.etc...)

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You have obviously not taken a single defended T3 objective this event cycle. All I am going to say: your suggestion is rubbish.

it was an often used strategy years ago when WvW was still somewhat a competitive thing (in players mind) and still well populated. now all i see is whinning at the first difficulty encountered because no one want to separate from the bus.

Yes, people also used to blast field while melee training each other. The game has changed a lot since 7 years ago. You might want to actually play some current WvW, because as is, your actuall experience with this mode is lacking, badly.

i swear, all you can do is attacking peoples knowledge with insults instead of giving arguments.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:i understand what you are saying, that you lose too many players to focus fire while already having trouble piercing through the T3 walls and doors. but at least it is now not a one sided massacre until the defenders are big enough.. and maybe it is time to change builds (not neccessary stats, just weapons and abilities to adapt for the change).

No downstate literally favors defenders. In a fight which already favored defenders. I could explain even further, but why bother? You seem very clear on your opinion while literally having not played 1 second in this content.

well i am entilted to answer to this post of yours to the end, but again, some insults.. did i say that this event did not favour defenders? no i didn't. what i did say is that there was some alternative you could try to take down the T3 instead of everyone staying in the blob trying to push through as one army.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Double guards in groups.... I was not aware I had to explicitly mention every single approach to deal with your mentioned change which had "no effect" on the game mode. Firebrand literally "fixed" an issue created by the stability change years later. The other issue being: that only guardian can provide adequate amounts of group stability to this day.

so you agree that having one particular class/build as mandatory to work around an "issue" the game has is a problem right? also you know that anet did that to prevent CC invulnerability right? but now you have FB boonball that negate those changes... well then time to nerf FB stability. (:D)

I agree that players know that they need to be able to counter CC. I agree that players who were against the change, had a valid point. I agree in that the change made a class a requirement in any proper group setup. What I disagree with is how you portray this as though players were clueless and complaining about something without reason. The result pretty much proves that players were right.

the change were made for a reason, a reason that arenanet validated becasue that was their vision of the game. and we dealt with it. what i am saying is that, either FB get nerf so that it gets inline with other stab sharing OR you give some similar ability to other class to avoid the need of FB in every comp.

It's similar to this situation in that:Sure, players will be able to adapt to a permanent no downstate. It would mean go more tanky for all classes. Roaming would be pretty much dead, squad fights would extend into infinity. Somehow I am not sure you have actually thought through what a permanent no downstate would actually mean for the mode. You're assuming that the free kills and farm you get right now would still exist. It would not.

you are just spouting BS all over the place. no downsate fasten the fights. going full bunker will not save you if you die. outnumbered being a possible thing, a mass bunker group may not have the damage to deal with their loss due to the massive damage the smaller group may have.with downstate, going full bunker make you invincible, especially if you are bigger than your opponent.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You have not yet shown how this will be a good change. Neither by being believeable that you have extensive current ingame experience, nor by addressing issues currently in game.

i already have made a full thread about it.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/112218/no-downstate-event-is-the-most-fun-i-had-in-wvw-for-a-very-long-time

You've made a thread about how you had the most fun in a long time. Didn't you just claim that you were inactive in this mode for a long time? Yes, congratulations, you are having fun ganking people left and right. You might also notice, not everyone agrees with your assessment in the thread you started.

not every one agree and it is normal. but no one was as entilted as you to defend your point by insulting other like you did.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, I have full confidence that the developers will devote the resources necessary to re-balance the entire WvW mode with no downstate in mind. It will come right after alliances and the fix of all problems we have had in WvW for years.

to be fair, if no downstate can fix most WvW problems (at least partially, like outnumbered, rally bot, player cautiosness, more teamplay, finding the rigth burst builds to nerf, etc) then the path to take is clear.

You literally just lined up a few points you believe to be important. Claim that no downstate somehow magically solves them, then call it a day. Let me make it very simple: if you assume that there is going to be a balance patch as big as would be needed to make permanent no downstate possible, you are either oblivious to how much work would have to be done, or insane.

thats to the devs discretion. with the way your are phrasing your answer i assume that rally bot is perfectly normal to you and contribute to the healthy state of WvW riiiiight?outnumbered is a given, players do get more cautious becasue they fear the gank when they can't just get help from their support.more teamplay , that is something i observed. players tend to flock together more and stick more, are more cautious of mates health, a little after effect of what no donwtate did to players mind i guess? but not you. finding the right build to nerf, because you know, when there is no downstate you can just focus on the fight before death and realise how some burst builds are.. a bit too bursty.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While I applaud your success. Honest question: do you think this kind of defenders benefit is healthy?

yes, because that means that downstate carried them until they realised they were not good enough without it. maybe they will now try to improve themselves instead of thinking that they are good because of one PvE mechanic. :)

ah yes, downstate carried the noob players and the pro player won. Meanwhile in a different situation:

downstate carry bad players. they even told me themselves they are against no downstate becasue they can't get back safely to the bus as elem when they get downed. cna't you see a problem here?

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:PS. a decent burn firebrand is able to do this even outside of no downstate week.

this is a balance problem. and no, 1v5 is impossible to do unless the 5 players are at noob level with atrocious builds.

it's a balance problem since 1v5 is not possible.

I love how you change your opinion based on what you claim. 1v5 as a condi Firebrand is just as possible as using an AC during a no downstate week. The condi FB can context and deny the ressurecting of downstate players, which he can burst down with high burn pressure earlier. Basically mimicking a no downstate scenario. Funny how in one case you are fine with this and for it, in the next it's a balance issue.

5 players will just chain CC and destroy the FB. he may kill one or 2 players caught off guard (because you know, FB is a guard ... hahaha) before his death.you must be happy killing 5 new players 1v5 with your op build right?

hey, there is a high chance you will answer to this post to spew a bit more hatred on me but i will stop this discussion with you with this one.if you continue to insult me in your next post i will flag it.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Uncomfortable truth:

These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

You're just wrong. For one stealth can cancel stomps, one of the most common builds today being support scrapper.

If you think Shadowstep is an uncounterable stomp, you are mistaken. Shadowstep is 1200 range. Plenty of builds have 1200 range DPS bombs and CCs. CCs like Line of Warding, Slick Shoes, Spectral Ring and Unsteady Ground work through ports.

I have to just avoid using my Shadowstep, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, down a guy, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, use my Shadowstep to stomp, pray I don't get CC'd or DPS'd to death, return to stomp and be in the middle of an enemy group without my most valuable CD because I had to throw it away on a stomp attempt. What about this scenario does not sound unfair???

[urd.8306]

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

Stealth is part of some classes defense kit. So, fine, we can take it out of the game as long as we either remove the same level of defense kit from other classes, or replace stealth with a new defense kit.

So, which would you prefer?

Theives with Invulnerability, or take it away from Warrior.

Maybe mesmer's should have stealth replaced with more instances of Aegis! That would be fun wouldn't it?

Again, it's been almost 8 years. If they were going to remove stealth it would have been long gone by now. Let this idea die. Move on. Maybe take up knitting.

No, it isn't. If it was part of the defensive toolkit, you could easily bind a "when leaving stealth your damage is lowered by 50% for 3 seconds" or something to the skill. It's similar to death shroud which isn't a necros defense but main offensive skill too.If you take stealth out of the game - all classes with access to stealth and that rely on stealth still have a great defensive toolkit. Engineers have blocks, protections, invulnerabilities, thieves have very high mobility, better evades and teleports and even passive condi cleanse and mesmer has invulnerabilities, ports and "clones" (last point is debatable), same goes for rangers.

So, no, you don't need to be compensated, because those professions already have the compensation for not being able to stealth. On the other hand you have professions that have less of all of that and that's the reason why most roamers pick stealth classes. The whole toolkit allows them to stack power and crit and still survive. Try the same on other classes and you die 50% more often.Remember the joke: When the thief resets you won the fight? Sorry, not sorry, but Stealth needs a serious rework or reveal needs to be a serious counter.