NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Jeran.6850]

From what i experienced yesterday, and today playing in the morning hours (before i have to get to work), it seems the major effect of the no downstate-event is discouraging the outnumbered side even more. It feels bad to see, that at first, there have been about 12 defenders against our 20+ group today (i wasnt in the squad or in ts, tho thats a guess), defending their t3 tower. They died, we take it, we move on to the next t3 tower... about 8 defenders now. We take it.We break the walls of their t3 keep immediatly after, and...yes - now 4 brave people tried to defend it. Needless to say, we take the keep (and everyting else remaining).It feels sad, shallow, and extremely boring.

People can say now, that the same can happen with the downstate in the game. But i have never seen such a lack of..."will" to even try. The "no downstate" makes inequalities even worse, from outnumbering to class abilities (like stealth for example). And the instant death obviously does have a negative effect...of beeing helpless, and

• and that is an impotant thing in an mmo - somehow alone.

Of course, everyone can change their gameplay. That they can change their armor to one side or the other (glass cannon versus full bunker at the extremes), take different runes and/or sigils, change their traitlines to, again, one side or the other accordingly... or even change their class.

Who, in their right mind, do want a WvW, where everyone that is "roaming" is a glass cannon (with stealth, if possible), and everyone doing "largescale" is a (at least semi-) bunker? Whats the win for both side of the argument?

[Jeran.6850]

...well, that last sentence. Skip it, i dont know how to edit.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Uncomfortable truth:

These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

You're just wrong. For one stealth can cancel stomps, one of the most common builds today being support scrapper.

If you think Shadowstep is an uncounterable stomp, you are mistaken. Shadowstep is 1200 range. Plenty of builds have 1200 range DPS bombs and CCs. CCs like Line of Warding, Slick Shoes, Spectral Ring and Unsteady Ground work through ports.

I have to just avoid using my Shadowstep, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, down a guy, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, use my Shadowstep to stomp, pray I don't get CC'd or DPS'd to death, return to stomp and be in the middle of an enemy group without my most valuable CD because I had to throw it away on a stomp attempt. What about this scenario does not sound unfair???

I didn't mean every situation. If 1 v 1 you can stealth stomp if vs group you do the lil 1200 pop away finish and I watched you do it a bunch of times one night so I doubt you have to pray for it to work even vs 8 or 9. Not many downed skills can touch 1200 rng when you ss stomp.

The fact you can constantly engage a group of 5-10 w/e and have a bunch target you and get out alive 95 percent of the time and this week grab a kill with 8 others right next to the guy.

You keep capping outnumbered like it matters with that build. When do you actually die? When do you get punished jumping into 5-10 nvm if it's only 1-3.You may be a skilled player but the that build is not skill because there's almost zero risk. What's you k/d with it. I bet 50 to 1 this week easy

Well that time you had your buddy running same build after dying on rev like 3 times and some poor necro who dgaf died like 8 times to you too but that's after 14 went there and couldn't catch you and that's what I'm basing most this off plus other similar builds I see

In what world do 8 players let a thief kill one guy lol. You act like it is impossible to help teammates without down state, when the meta is 4/6 minstrel supports. Maybe the supports should learn to use their kit better instead of relying on down state crutch?

So your whole post is basically thief QQ? lmfao

Ok, it is related to this week and this thread about removing ds perm and how builds like yours would be a problem. But ok 4/6 support if they were a gg but we all know QQ doesn't attack guild groups. It was cute you put QQ in your reply so I had to. I guess if you can't sneak into a 5-10 group and grab a kill this week I overestimated your skill. Again this was that build and this no ds thread and you calling downing a guy normally and him getting rezzed being an issue. Gl bro

What I understand is I killed you in WVW at some point. LOL

[Jilora.9524]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Uncomfortable truth:

These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

It really isn't a whole lotta skill to do what you do. Play teef port in down a dude(this wk kill) either stealth finish or start the finish port away still in finishing animation port back last milli second for finish. All while 7-8 dudes can't even hit you or kill you and you port away reset if that don't work. Then you got the rev friend who always has to swap off rev to the same thief build and do the same thing

You're just wrong. For one stealth can cancel stomps, one of the most common builds today being support scrapper.

If you think Shadowstep is an uncounterable stomp, you are mistaken. Shadowstep is 1200 range. Plenty of builds have 1200 range DPS bombs and CCs. CCs like Line of Warding, Slick Shoes, Spectral Ring and Unsteady Ground work through ports.

I have to just avoid using my Shadowstep, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, down a guy, WHILE OUTNUMBERED, use my Shadowstep to stomp, pray I don't get CC'd or DPS'd to death, return to stomp and be in the middle of an enemy group without my most valuable CD because I had to throw it away on a stomp attempt. What about this scenario does not sound unfair???

I didn't mean every situation. If 1 v 1 you can stealth stomp if vs group you do the lil 1200 pop away finish and I watched you do it a bunch of times one night so I doubt you have to pray for it to work even vs 8 or 9. Not many downed skills can touch 1200 rng when you ss stomp.

The fact you can constantly engage a group of 5-10 w/e and have a bunch target you and get out alive 95 percent of the time and this week grab a kill with 8 others right next to the guy.

You keep capping outnumbered like it matters with that build. When do you actually die? When do you get punished jumping into 5-10 nvm if it's only 1-3.You may be a skilled player but the that build is not skill because there's almost zero risk. What's you k/d with it. I bet 50 to 1 this week easy

Well that time you had your buddy running same build after dying on rev like 3 times and some poor necro who dgaf died like 8 times to you too but that's after 14 went there and couldn't catch you and that's what I'm basing most this off plus other similar builds I see

In what world do 8 players let a thief kill one guy lol. You act like it is impossible to help teammates without down state, when the meta is 4/6 minstrel supports. Maybe the supports should learn to use their kit better instead of relying on down state crutch?

So your whole post is basically thief QQ? lmfao

Ok, it is related to this week and this thread about removing ds perm and how builds like yours would be a problem. But ok 4/6 support if they were a gg but we all know QQ doesn't attack guild groups. It was cute you put QQ in your reply so I had to. I guess if you can't sneak into a 5-10 group and grab a kill this week I overestimated your skill. Again this was that build and this no ds thread and you calling downing a guy normally and him getting rezzed being an issue. Gl bro

What I understand is I killed you in WVW at some point. LOL

Nope but I chased you that night with those 14 and you kept getting away but we killed the rev then there were 2 clone thiefs so I just stopped and watched the nonsense and that 1 dude who was killed a bunch of times then everyone basically gave up. My admiration w QQ is more the camp monuments on daily day and all the other griefing your guild does and we had a conversation here about it but that thread was deleted where you said all QQ isn't like that but w/e. Then you resort to oh this guy is upset cause I killed him like that's the only reason I commented on what you said. You talked how it was skill to down a guy but couldn't finish because he got rezzed and I just debate that build requires any skill cause I watched them chase the 2 of you and it was just silly. But no reason to continue

[Jeran.6850]

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

Sure, let's have a toggle revealed week. Maybe when these people get killed by buster Revenants or Guaidians or STILL Rangers or even Daredevils or Mesmers that just set for pure deuling, they might finally realize it's not stealth that is the problem, but their builds and skills.

Sorry, you know us much as everyone else why three certain classes are known to be the best roaming classes. They do have one thing in common: stealth access.Are there alternative builds for these classes? Sure, there are. Maybe as much/almost as much effective, but surely more.... exhausting (have to google that word^^).

There is a reason why the already existing alternative builds are not commonly played, and the reason for sure ist NOT, that "you" (the players of this three classes) dont want to be even more... hm. Fearsome.

[Jeran.6850]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Jeran.6850 said:

I want to thank you for your reply. I feel, we are on the most possible opposing sides if its about argumenting over the downstate,but it feels very good to see, that it is still possible to be.. still a kind a person, with an open mind.

So, thanks again

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

@jpsssss.7530 said:I bet you play a cancer one-shot/nuke build. There are some builds with little to no counterplay options (cough thief and ranger *cough) and they always come out of the woodwork on no downstate weeks. I feel like these week should ONLY be used to examine balancing. This is the week ANET should be watching WvW to balance the bullkitten. Blobbing is not the only way WvW happens and balancing solely around that has allowed thief to go untouched for far too long. Rapid fire should probable also be looked at, though dodges and blocks exist...As a ranger main, I can tell you for certain that there is plenty of counterplay to ranger, and I run into skilled opponents all the time who are very able to mitigate my damage and crush me. Ofc, sometimes I am better and they don't. :-) Nor are we the only ones able to do a rapid take down. I was taken down last night by a rev with a single hammer strike for about 12k. NO, I didn't take a screen shot because it wasn't that big a deal. Rapid fire is one of the few things that even keeps Ranger LB viable, and to my knowledge is the ONLY counterplay available to a thief/mesmer dropping into stealth.

To the OP's point, no downstate is a great occasional spin on playing WvW, but it shouldn't be the constant play.

[Jeran.6850]

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

As a ranger main, I can tell you for certain that there is plenty of counterplay to ranger, and I run into skilled opponents all the time who are very able to mitigate my damage and crush me. Ofc, sometimes I am better and they don't. :-) Nor are we the only ones able to do a rapid take down. I was taken down last night by a rev with a single hammer strike for about 12k. NO, I didn't take a screen shot because it wasn't that big a deal. Rapid fire is one of the few things that even keeps Ranger LB viable, and to my knowledge is the ONLY counterplay available to a thief/mesmer dropping into stealth.

To the OP's point, no downstate is a great occasional spin on playing WvW, but it shouldn't be the constant play.

Of course there is counterplay - if not, LB ranger would be the prime predator of WvW (and PvP). If not by their stealth/boon/mobility/AI effects/blocks and semi-invulnerabilities access--- at least their massive 1850 range would make them way op. No? So, whats your message. Without activating a single skill (rapid fire), you couldnt kill thiefs? Killing thiefs is not a ranger problem (by your one words), its a problem for everyone else, if not dedicating their build to not only survive, but eventually even KILL the thief.Doesnt change that LB ranger has QUITE some unfair advantage against everyone else, if not dedicated builded for counterplay.

[waxx.3619]

I am all for it remove downed state.

[Wraistlin.6072]

I don't believe downstate is the problem. It's is the rallying from downstate when someone dies. Just remove the instant rally, still leaves counter play. Rezzing skills are still viable, and small organized groups can still compete against pug blobs.

[Caedmon.6798]

Agree it should stay permant,having much more fun and better outcomes vs being heavily outnumbered where insta rez isnt being a crutch.

Keep it in PveKeep it in PvPRemove it in WvW,it has no place in this game mode anymore

[Magnuzone.8395]

Can't say I care either way.

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

@Jeran.6850 said:Of course there is counterplay - if not, LB ranger would be the prime predator of WvW (and PvP). If not by their stealth/boon/mobility/AI effects/blocks and semi-invulnerabilities access--- at least their massive 1850 range would make them way op. No? So, whats your message. Without activating a single skill (rapid fire), you couldnt kill thiefs? Killing thiefs is not a ranger problem (by your one words), its a problem for everyone else, if not dedicating their build to not only survive, but eventually even KILL the thief.

I would love to see some documentation on that LB range estimate. As far as I can tell Ranger LB caps at 1500, with LB 5 having a small portion of its AOE attack that hits its very edge at 1680, which isn't going to be much damage at all. There does seem to be a very minor terrain advantage gained when shooting from height that might expand that a bit, but I haven't seen any confirmable number put on that and it is very situational. But hey, feel free to use hyperbole to your hearts content.

My only reason for talking about Rangers versus Thieves is that I personally am unaware of any other counterplay to stealth, and even rapid fire is very dependent on getting that shot off BEFORE they stealth and not accidentally breaking animation or being CC'd. Taking away or adjusting rapid fire so that all the non-rangers are happy (or at least satisfied) with it could potentially remove the only check on Mesmer & Thief stealth currently in the game.

Doesnt change that LB ranger has QUITE some unfair advantage against everyone else, if not dedicated builded for counterplay.

This is an old and worn out argument, all too often seemingly perpetuated by those who play squad oriented classes, who have other advantages that are denied Rangers but I don't expect to change anybody's opinion here, especially since we are drifting pretty far afield from the OP's topic. Off the top of my head I would say that Spellbreakers are a bugger to fight, and have been thoroughly demolished by some power heralds, and I absolutely hate mirages, completely aside from Deadeyes. I personally doubt that they are all building their comps just to counter play me or my fellow rangers.

I wish you well and hope that your time in WvW is fruitful rather than frustrating. If you find me on the field of battle, I'm sure I will contribute a bag or 2 to your in game wealth accumulation.

[God.2708]

@"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:

I would love to see some documentation on that LB range estimate. As far as I can tell Ranger LB caps at 1500, with LB 5 having a small portion of its AOE attack that hits its very edge at 1680, which isn't going to be much damage at all. There does seem to be a very minor terrain advantage gained when shooting from height that might expand that a bit, but I haven't seen any confirmable number put on that and it is very situational. But hey, feel free to use hyperbole to your hearts content.

Not particularly sure on the actual number, but its an effect of how the longbow arrow is classified as a projectile in order to make it seem/look more realistic physics wise. You can definitely hit people 1600-1700 range away with shots in the right conditions. 1800 would not surprise me.

This is a 'feature' that has been around since beta, so... not so much hyperbole as it is you simply being ignorant of game mechanics.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37327/longbow-is-not-1500-rangehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Long_Range_Shot "The projectile flies in a small arc and can actually hit targets outside of the maximum range."

Edit: Found a reddit topic with a video and a declaration by someone of managing to pull off a 2100-2200 range hit.https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7n83db/ranger_long_bow_vs_deadeye_rifle_range_tests/

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

@God.2708 said:

@"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:

I would love to see some documentation on that LB range estimate. As far as I can tell Ranger LB caps at 1500, with LB 5 having a small portion of its AOE attack that hits its very edge at 1680, which isn't going to be much damage at all. There does seem to be a very minor terrain advantage gained when shooting from height that might expand that a bit, but I haven't seen any confirmable number put on that and it is very situational. But hey, feel free to use hyperbole to your hearts content.

Not particularly sure on the actual number, but its an effect of how the longbow arrow is classified as a projectile in order to make it seem/look more realistic physics wise. You can definitely hit people 1600-1700 range away with shots in the right conditions. 1800 would not surprise me.

This is a 'feature' that has been around since beta, so... not so much hyperbole as it is you simply being ignorant of game mechanics.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37327/longbow-is-not-1500-range

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Long_Range_Shot

"The projectile flies in a small arc and can actually hit targets outside of the maximum range."

Edit: Found a reddit topic with a video and a declaration by someone of managing to pull off a 2100-2200 range hit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7n83db/ranger_long_bow_vs_deadeye_rifle_range_tests/

Thanks for the links. I found one of the reddit entries especially interesting in his tests. I did not know about the 15% Buffer, but the person testing and posting on reddit did seem to confirm ranges close to the person I replied to. I was aware of the wiki entry, but that statement in and of itself is far too vague to base anything on.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Uncomfortable truth:

These threads filled with people saying "get good" and calling others "rallybots" are purported by people who are not good enough to convert downs to kills under the normal ruleset and wants things to be easier for themselves. The people who are better than them are not saying anything about it or are trying to steer the conversation toward the merit of the mechanics at hand with little success due to all the thumping and bleeting.

Carry on B)

Makes so much sense bro, the people I downed should have a second chance. You're right, my skill was just so TERRIBLE I got his HP to 0, potentially in a 1vX.

Do you even read this stuff before posting? Why should an outnumbered group, ALREADY disadvantaged by the fact they are outnumbered, have to jump MORE hurdles like saving cleave CDs and stomp CDs that larger groups have free reign to use without worrying? VIVA LA BLOB where everyone can do open heart surgery to resurrect dead men.

If you're getting killed by downedstate players, you're not the skilled one.If you're 1vX and can't convert, you got outplayed because someone is sitting there rubbing his hands on a corpse while you sat there and let him.If you're XvX+ your group has a weak link if you can't convert if that's the sole reason you're dying.If you claim it's good for XvX, you are either just a stealth ganker or lying.

Odds are, the miniscule amount of time for XvX you're talking about where one or two people are dissuaded from attacking you in order to res a down is having absolutely no impact on the result of the fight regardless, because if they weren't ressing a down they'd just be focusing you.

If your tactic is to burst people down so fast they instadie while running invulns to stabilize the post-res response or simply reset the fight via stealth, that's a terrible tactic and you've burned resources excessively.Also if you have no cooldowns left like you say you do after just generating a down in an outnumbered fight, and can't cope with it, you're not as good as you think you are and your build is probably some level of cheese. Coming from an ex-full-signet D/D thief. If you can't win solely because of downed state and burned cooldowns, you're winning only from the cheese you're condemning. When you start winning and surviving 1vX without the cooldowns, that's when you know you're doing well. In which case it doesn't matter. I'm a 1HKO player and STILL recognize the concept of removing downed state is HORRIBLE for the game.

To be completely honest, the fact they paired this event with an increased EXP weekend is asinine because it brings in non-WvW core players to get their WXP for mounts/legendaries and throws off the metrics for the event. The same people who already run the gank builds are getting even easier pickings from players who don't know the format well in it of itself.

Number of resurrections and res speeds, especially through skills, can be problems with valuable discussion, but the whole no-downedstate-altogether thing is a meme and isn't good for the mode.

[Sugar Min.5834]

Topics like this never failed to appear during every no down-state event. Every year it's the same few people posting this.

TBH I don't care anymore. I have TOTALLY stopped playing WvW for more than two months now. The last nerfs on Warclaw finally did it. I have rebuild all my professions for PVE and sold all my sieges in the TP.

During the past two years or so, I played only WvW in this game. I bought many gem store finishers and Warclaw skins with real money, unlike many who farmed gold for gem store stuff. I spent much money on this game because I enjoyed it. That was before. Now, the endless nerfs and disregards for players calls have made this game, especially WvW, less and less enjoyable over months and years.

Do what the gankers want ANet, as always. But I am asking you one more time, can I have a refund for all those finishers and Warclaw skins I specifically bought with cash for WvW? A partial refund?

[Katelynn.6593]

As long as it doesn't head to PVE, I am fine with that!

[Dawdler.8521]

@Wraistlin.6072 said:I don't believe downstate is the problem. It's is the rallying from downstate when someone dies. Just remove the instant rally, still leaves counter play. Rezzing skills are still viable, and small organized groups can still compete against pug blobs.Which you will probably find a majority is ok with.

Here's the thing - there are things in the game that is really kitten complicated to solve without messing up the balance. The insane boon and heal reliance in zergs most notably, the amount of balancing needed is alot since every class and tons of skills and even gear is involved.

But then there are other issues we know exactly how to solve. Like downed state. 1 man res cap and no rallying literally resolves 100% of downed state arguments for most aspects of the game.

Yet people just want to watch the game crash and burn. Lets delete everything!

DeleteFirebrand

[MithranArkanere.8957]

The absolutely best thing about No Downstate weeks, and the main reason why they should keep doing them once or twice a year, is that they show why Downstate needs to stay to anyone who actually bothers thinking about it.

Every time, people who would normally fail to defeat players would do so. So they think "oh, this is much better".
Instead seeing that the problem is that they didn't take enemies down before with downstate, they think that the situation that benefits them is the right one.

But it isn't. It's a clear "learn to play" issue. Players reviving other allies can be targeted, supressed, interrupted and pressured to leave with AoEs.

If anything, I'd see introduced some new things with the expansion to give more downstate play and counterplay, rather than having the mechanic removed.

• "Frozen Soil" kind of mechanics that prevent reviving others and being revived while under their effects, to actively counter ranged revives from working and making sure you take out particular priority enemies like supports. It would effectively work as a "no downstate", but you will have to actively bring it and use it.
• Giving players more Finisher skills, some of which would be ranged, particularly in squishier professions that would have a harder time finishing enemies.

Every profession has 'incomplete' core skill sets. Most missing 1 healing skill and 2 elites (engineer and revenant being two special cases).
One of those 'missing' skills could be finisher or no-res skills if the profession doesn't have one already. For example:

• Guardian could have a Consecration which creates an AoE that prevents revival of enemies within it. Or a "staff of command" spirit weapon elite that flies to the enemy and repeatedly hits them, buffing adjacent allies for each hit, but if the targeted enemy is downed, the last hit would defeat them.
• Warrior already got Battle Standard, but that doesn't mean they should not get new elites too. One could be a "Cowards!" shout that keeps enemies from running way from the warrior by giving Taunt to enemies facing him, and knockdown down and immobilizing enemies not facing the warrior. Maybe even make downed enemies non-revivable for a couple of seconds. The other one could be a Stance that safeguards boons, preventing them from being removed or corrupted while the stance lasts.
• Ranger could get a signet with an active effect that finishes or greatly helps finishing an enemy, maybe even from a distance. They are also missing a Survival elite, but that skill type is mostly utility and defense, so it would not be a good match.
• Thief already got a finisher in daredevil, but they are still missing a signet and preparation elites. The preparation could create an area that freezes revival.
• Elementalist could get a targeted Arcane elite that has a long windup with a faint pillar getting brighter and chasing the target as a warning, but if completed it would produce a huge pillar of arcane energy that hits hard and always crits up to 5 enemies that stay in the area, and the main target of the skill would go straight to defeated if the damage would take them down.
• Mesmer could have a Phantasm elite that finishes an enemy if the Phantasm is allowed to reach the player ( so they have 6 illusion skills, Ether Feast could also be turned into a clone skill that creates a clone before healing if the mesmer is under 25% health and 2 clones if under 10%); or an elite mantra that gets 3 ammo, and finishes enemies with the last charge, going on cooldown for a rather long time for a mantra.
• Necromancer could get an elite Well that prevents enemies within it from being revived, or an elite signet that finishes enemies.
• Engineer is one of the two special cases. They have 4 core skill types with 5 utility skills each (unlike other professions who have 5 types, 4 utilities), so they could also be adjusted by giving them a 5th skill type and converting one utility from each type into that new skill type. For example, reworking Throw Mine, Net Turret, Elixir S and Box of Nails from Tool kit into Preparation skills. They would still have the same toolbelt skills, except Elixir S which would become the toolbelt skill so it's still fast and instant, while the new preparation would become the AoE stealth from Toss Elixir S with a shorter arming time than other preparations. Oh, and so the Toolkit skills are not completely lost, they could be reworked into a new Mace weapon for core engineer, finally giving them a serviceable core 1h weapon. Once they have that fixed, then they could get a Preparation or Gizmo elite that prevents revival or finishes.
• Revenant only has 3 utilities per legend. That could be finally fixed and they could get a 4th utility to choose, so two revenants with the same legend may not have the same exact skills. Shiro would be the perfect candidate to get a Finisher in there. Maybe make the new utility a finisher with a sizable cooldown, or make Jade Winds finish the first enemy hit enemies under 25% downed health if you use it while over 90% energy, to compensate it has just 5s cooldown.

But removing downstate would be a really bad idea as it would favor builds that are more of a "fire away and forget" style, and move too far from GW2's standard gameplay.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Antioche.7034 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

Exactly this, people are here because of WvW booster, because almost everybody hates farming GoB for legendaries, so they can use this week to spend less time in WvW.

Then again, make a way to obtain gift of battle in PvE I dont know shove it in raids/strikes. Idc either because nothing will get me to play those modes (raids more so than strikes). Dont force people to play modes they dislike, let them play the part of the game they enjoy and if that means they dont touch the other parts then so be it... thats what player choice is all about.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Antioche.7034 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Why are you all so obsessed with these things? Why don't you like fighting?

The secret is they

don't like fighting. They only like winning.

And no downstate week allows winning with the most kitten one shot builds by sniping into zerg tails. This week is gankers dream.

No downstate week should only be permanent if you mean to kill WvW as thoroughly as they already killed the PvP ESports dream.

1. There are a TON of people in wvw this week, hate to break it too you bud.

That's far more due to the 100% Wxp buff than the event. Most non roamer WvW players I have talked to are already bored of the event, simply because it removes a ton of strategy and depth of combat. Some people care about good and fun fights with back and forth, and not just the wxp pop when something dies after the one push.

As far as actual engagements, it mostly benefits the roaming cloud getting some free kills, smaller organized groups getting some kills before dying to a far larger blob (though it is nice when you wipe the blob with half the numbers, hardly an accomplishment though with the disparity in players skill, which was present before), people grouping up even more or otherwise just hiding behind T3 objectives with tons of ACs. Big fun, yes...

If you want to balance the game mode around the roamers and upper echelon of the player base, that's exactly who you are going to be left with: some roamers and a few "good" players in a dead game mode.

Exactly this, people are here because of WvW booster, because almost everybody hates farming GoB for legendaries, so they can use this week to spend less time in WvW.

Then again, make a way to obtain gift of battle in PvE I dont know shove it in raids/strikes. Idc either because nothing will get me to play those modes (raids more so than strikes). Dont force people to play modes they dislike, let them play the part of the game they enjoy and if that means they dont touch the other parts then so be it... thats what player choice is all about.

^

This has been an ongoing battle/debate between WvW'ers, PvP'ers and PvE'ers. I cant see Anet changing anything as they want people to try everything they made/offer and use that to lock certain elements behind.

[Sobx.1758]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:One thing I heard all the time since Friday 'I can't wait for this event to be over'. From vet players. Who do not frequent the forum.

One thing I heard all the time since Friday "no downstate should stay forever". From vet players. So not sure what point you're trying to make here by cherry picking comments that fit your opinion.

[AikijinX.6258]

Before this thread gets closed, if it does, I will chime in with my 2 quick 2 cents.

-Keep Downstate in PvE-Keep Downstate in PvP-Remove Downstate in WvW

We all know Anet cater's to the Majority, which are casual low/average skill cap players.But just once, I would like the voices of players who actually took time to learn their class's/game mechanics to have their voices heard, listened to and validated.

Crutches like downstate to save the day when an ally comes around and you need help being saved by a better Player, Roaming Group, Zerg, etc, about to stomp you is deplorable. Refusal to learn your class mechanics is your fault. But that's not enough because then you feel so justified and validated when crying on the forums because the MAJORITY of people playing and talking on these forums venting their frustrations are casuals, so their ideas and thought patterns align with yours, which makes you feel less alienated and alone.

It's nauseating to say the least because the Majority of people (Casuals) are what Anet is always going to focus on, listen to, and cater for, because that's where the money funnels in from.

I hate to say it, but it can all be summed up to a (Learn2Play) issue.

[God.2708]

@AikijinX.6258 said:Before this thread gets closed, if it does, I will chime in with my 2 quick 2 cents.

-Keep Downstate in PvE-Keep Downstate in PvP-Remove Downstate in WvW

We all know Anet cater's to the Majority, which are casual low/average skill cap players.But just once, I would like the voices of players who actually took time to learn their class's/game mechanics to have their voices heard, listened to and validated.

Crutches like downstate to save the day when an ally comes around and you need help being saved by a better Player, Roaming Group, Zerg, etc, about to stomp you is deplorable. Refusal to learn your class mechanics is your fault. But that's not enough because then you feel so justified and validated when crying on the forums because the MAJORITY of people playing and talking on these forums venting their frustrations are casuals, so their ideas and thought patterns align with yours, which makes you feel less alienated and alone.

It's nauseating to say the least because the Majority of people (Casuals) are what Anet is always going to focus on, listen to, and cater for, because that's where the money funnels in from.

I hate to say it, but it can all be summed up to a (Learn2Play) issue.

It can indeed.

Learn to finish downstates.

See? To easy. This argument keeps getting brought up and it's not an actual rational argument. There is absolutely NOTHING that indicates a player utilizing downstate is worse or better than a player who doesn't. Point blank. For all you know they're utilizing a build made to maximize the benefits of downstate and their friends and that's the only reason you're putting them in downstate, and if you were to 1v1 them no downstate they'd slap your kitten in.