Still a "side MMO"?

[Danikat.8537]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Does it matter?Some players will always treat it as a 'side MMO', others will never treat it so.Some will switch from one way to the other./shrug

I don't think it matters what other players choose to do, but I do think it matters what options are available. Before I discovered Guild Wars 1 I'd decided MMOs weren't for me, because they took up too much time and ideally needed a regular schedule. Before GW1 the main MMO I'd played was Ultima Online which is not quite a sandbox game but it's a lot more dependant on player driven activity (or was, I have no idea how it's changed since then) so to do anything you ideally need to be part of a community and that means playing at around the same time on a regular basis so people get to know you and you can meet up to do things together. I'd tried Everquest and Runescape as well and although they're more 'themepark' MMOs with designated activities they still demanded a lot of time and playing with the same people regularly. Even though I love Warcraft 1 & 2 I'd decided not to get World of Warcraft for the same reason.

So it came as a surprise to find an MMO which did fit with my erratic free time and being unwilling to commit to focusing on just 1 game. If GW2 had changed like the OP implies so that's no longer possible and you have to spend a lot of time to achieve anything, or even just to keep up with everyone else, then I'd have to give up on playing it.

It's the same reason I don't like subscription games. I have no way of knowing at the start of a month if I'll be playing every day or barely logging in at all. I don't want to have to play that in advance even if I could and I really don't want to feel like I have to play a game whether I feel like it or not because otherwise I'd be wasting the money I paid for permission to log in.

[Fuchslein.8639]

For me personally, it was never a side MMO. I've always found it grindy since I started with just before HOT. At that point I had a lot of time and could play as much as I wanted, and I grinded everything I could. Now that I've started over and have less time I realize it's still the case for me(in my case) GW2 is and never was(to HOT) a SIde MMO unless you wanted to save years for one thing and donate thousands of dollars.I know people who play the game very little and accordingly have very little and actually only play around in the open world to find some relaxation. For these people, GW2 is of course perfect because there are no costs besides the purchase. But if you want more, you have to play the game actively (which is nothing bad).

Where does the statement GW2 would be a side MMO come from? Have honestly never heard of it. Has Anet really advertised GW2 as a side project and thus play it less oo?

[Tyncale.1629]

I have been trying a few other major MMO's lately that I played some in the past but never really got into. Star Wars the Old Republic, The Elder Scrolls online and even Everquest, which I spend the first 10 years of my MMO life in. Everquest is just TOO antiquated now, even though it just oozes nostalgia for me with every corner I take. The star wars MMO is just so ugly: I bought the collectors edition at release, was really hyped for this MMO but it was the biggest bust for me of all MMO's that I anticipated. I like the combat in SWtOR but the character models and world are all just so plain, it is a pity. No amount of funny Star Wars creatures and references could compensate for this, I found. The old fashioned Quest system is also something that I can't stomach anymore.Teso has the best chance but the models here are also terrible. The world is ok-ish, nothing like GW2's minutely crafted World off course, but OK. In Teso I really dislike the combat and clunky tab-targeting. Does this game even have a target window? Maybe I should look into that more or learn about UI mods or some. But in the end I can not be bothered, it's just not drawing me in.

So back to GW2. The reason I keep trying the other MMO's is because sometimes the fact that my powercurve basically stopped at level 80/Ascended Gear in GW2 gets to me, and I feel a craving for that race to the top. Then I realize that I was never really good at that race, so. :) Oh, and I miss housing in GW2. I guess when the next expac has Housing, there is no reason anymore to try other MMO's. :)

[Redfeather.6401]

I really wish stuff would be tuned down to not require 250 of this and 250 of that and 100 of these things are are made up of 100 of these smaller things. The game has so much stuff to collect and unlock but so, so many things are so grindy I can't even bother to collect most skins in game. If I look at eso's stickerbook system that is something that keeps me playing a long time without feeling burnt out.

[kharmin.7683]

@Redfeather.6401 said:I really wish stuff would be tuned down to not require 250 of this and 250 of that and 100 of these things are are made up of 100 of these smaller things. The game has so much stuff to collect and unlock but so, so many things are so grindy I can't even bother to collect most skins in game. If I look at eso's stickerbook system that is something that keeps me playing a long time without feeling burnt out.

You can blame the crowd that completes content as fast as possible and then complains about there being nothing to do.

[Obtena.7952]

I love the loaded approach to the question ... is GW2 STILL a side MMO? Well, considering it was designed to allow people to play at their leisure without a sub ... sure, for some people, it's 'still' works like that. No single element has been introduced, even HOT or since ... that changes this.

[mercury ranique.2170]

I disagree it was ever advertised as a side MMO. It is just an MMO you can take a break from. I think it is much more healthy then the games that require you to play to keep up and pay up your monthly fee every month. If it is a side game for you or your main is of no importance and thats a good thing. With the living world seasons to unlock for free it became a thing that it would be wise to keep the game installed and login once in a while to get the episodes for free, but that is all.

[Danikat.8537]

@"Fuchslein.8639" said:Where does the statement GW2 would be a side MMO come from? Have honestly never heard of it. Has Anet really advertised GW2 as a side project and thus play it less oo?

As far as I know Anet have never described GW2 as a 'side MMO' or marketed it that way. (It's a term I've only heard in the last few years so it might not have been around with the game was first released, although I could have just missed it.)

But it was advertised as an MMO for people who don't like MMOs. The exact wording, from the Design Manifesto is "So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee."

Pretty much what's been said here: you don't have to do any of the long-term goals if you don't want to, they're certainly not required to progress through the game, so you don't have to spend tons of time on GW2 if you don't want to.

Even if you take a long break (months or years) when you come back chances are all you need to do before being ready to jump into new content is check your traits and skills in case they've changed and take some time to remind yourself how the game works. That's very different from many older MMOs (and even some newer ones) where you'd have to catch up on all the new levels and gear and whatever else, and you'll have to somehow find enough other players at the same point you are, or people willing to put their own progression on hold to help you, in order to do that.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Randulf.7614" said:Grind was far worse at launch imo. Getting a legendary was 10x more effort for starters. Imagine getting 250 of each T6 mat without map rewards, there was miniscule levels of t6 mats dropping, no champ bags etc. Ectos were rarer, mystic coins harder to get, precursors harder to get.

Then when ascended was added a few months later, that was a grind to get.

I think people forget how limited the game was at launch. It's just now, we have more stuff people want, but it doesn't all need to be gone for. That doesn't mean grind doesn't exist, but it's mitigated by how easily you can chip away at it over time

Sure, now theres lots of options of "farming": fractals, lots of "events trains". for those like repeating stuff, we have now SW + DragonFall + Drizzlewood.

[lezbefriends.7516]

@Danikat.8537 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:Where does the statement GW2 would be a side MMO come from? Have honestly never heard of it. Has Anet really advertised GW2 as a side project and thus play it less oo?

As far as I know Anet have never described GW2 as a 'side MMO' or marketed it that way. (It's a term I've only heard in the last few years so it might not have been around with the game was first released, although I could have just missed it.)

It may not be an exact quote, but I was referring to people who said GW2 was not in direct competition with WoW but, rather, could be played alongside it.

Then raids and flying mounts happened... I’d say it’s definitely competing with other MMOs for players’ playtime now.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

You have played this character for 7,187 hours 5 minutes over the past 3,109 days.Across all characters, you have played for 7,318 hours 31 minutes over the past 3,109 days.

I think that says enough.

[Linken.6345]

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:You have played this character for 7,187 hours 5 minutes over the past 3,109 days.Across all characters, you have played for 7,318 hours 31 minutes over the past 3,109 days.

I think that says enough.

Dang only 131 hours on your alts you must really like your main.

[Obtena.7952]

@Mortifera.6138 said:

@Danikat.8537 said:

@"Fuchslein.8639" said:Where does the statement GW2 would be a side MMO come from? Have honestly never heard of it. Has Anet really advertised GW2 as a side project and thus play it less oo?

As far as I know Anet have never described GW2 as a 'side MMO' or marketed it that way. (It's a term I've only heard in the last few years so it might not have been around with the game was first released, although I could have just missed it.)

It may not be an exact quote, but I was referring to people who said GW2 was not in direct competition with WoW but, rather, could be played alongside it.

Then raids and flying mounts happened... I’d say it’s definitely competing with other MMOs for players’ playtime now.

Well, to be accurate, GW2 was always competing for MMO player time with other MMO's, regardless of what the content is. The 'sell' of GW2 is that you don't fall behind if you take breaks because what you did in part 1 doesn't impact your ability to skip part 2, 3, etc ... and play part 5 for example. The existence of raids or mounts doesn't change that either ... The implication GW2 has 'strayed' from it's intent because of these elements and is now competing with traditional MMOs would be a pretty inaccurate and far fetched idea.

You know what is most interesting? You complain about grind in this and other threads ... yet just over a year ago you started this thread ...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96061/cant-get-into-other-mmos-after-gw2/p1

What's the big change of heart?

[voltaicbore.8012]

@"Obtena.7952" said:

What's the big change of heart?

Probably that the IBS achieves/mastery points are among both the grindiest yet unrewarding things we've ever seen in recent memory. Sure, other more intensive grinds exist elsewhere in the game, but masteries come much closer to feeling like 'mandatory' content than these other things, IMO.

The other game I play alongside GW2 is BDO. BDO is infamous for demanding quite a bit of grind to advance almost everything a player can do in the game. For most PvE purposes, in comparison to BDO, GW2 has just about no grind whatsoever. I won't bore you with specific examples, but anyone who knows anything substantial about both BDO and GW2 will have to agree with me here, it's just objectively true.

What surprised me over the past two years is how much worse the tiny bits of GW2 grind feels than what BDO throws at me. I'm sure a lot of this feeling comes from expectations, in that I know BDO is going to troll me with some horribly low drop rates and RNG gear upgrades, while GW2 mostly lived up to its promise of letting us get right to the fun without spending all our time preparing for the fun. However, I don't think that's the whole story.

What I noticed BDO does quite well is

(1) make the rewards of grinding proportionate to the effort, but more importantly,(2) give good 'consolation prizes' along the way if RNG is forcing you to grind longer than you'd like.

For point (1), I think this is actually a bit moot. BDO does lock some absolutely game-changing rewards behind massive grinds, but it's not like GW2 grinds don't end in good rewards either. Sure, these most recent collections only give us mastery points for a largely useless Saga mastery line, but things like the roller beetle, griffon, and skyscale were absolutely superb rewards relative to the effort required to get them.

Where things start to matter I think is with point (2). BDO has a large number of overlapping systems that players can use to make their grinds more rewarding. So let's say I'm grinding a certain type of mob in a specific area in BDO to go after a rare drop I need for a collection. While I'm there, I can pop a daily-refreshing buff to increase the sellable trash loot I get from mob kills, and several food/enhancements to increase both the xp and skill points I get from kills. Also, I can use pets to increase my account's knowledge levels regarding these enemies the more I kill them, which rewards my entire account with buffs to certain crafting activities. I can also use these free pets to buff xp and skill points as well. I can also equip an item that keeps track of how many kills I make, and after I hit 60,000 kills (sadly an all-too-attainable number when it comes to BDO grinding), that special item gives me a guaranteed very-high-quality trinket and resets itself so I can continue grinding again. The benefits of stuff like Karmic Retribution on some GW2 maps utterly pales in comparison to how useful the 'consolation prizes' for BDO grinds are.

Thanks to these overlapping systems, even if RNG hates me and I keep failing to get the rare drop I was grinding for, I have so many ways of getting so many valuable things out of the grind even if the main goal eludes me for longer than I'd like. Of course, GW2 often has sub-rewards tucked into multi-part achievements as well. However, those sub-rewards seem universally far less useful than what BDO's "sub-rewards" for grinding are. In BDO, players tend to get things that directly improve QoL, directly progress your character, or help you buy your way past other RNG gates using the player market. Compare this with what you get partway through the Morale Breaker achievement. Some RNG boxes with a deeply unimpressive loot table, and Bear-themed skins. The Bear Skins do have decent market value and of course mean a lot to completionists and those who like the look, but their impact on your experience of the game is quite minimal. To boot, the value of the most expensive skin in those Bear boxes can be easily made somewhere between 1 and 2 hours of grinding in BDO.

I like that GW2 for the most part doesn't really have intense grinds. However, whenever it does include grinding, the reward-effort balance seems off. Some of the most awesome and game-changing rewards aren't that hard to grind out, while others like the most recent weapon collection masteries can run you thousands of gold for a mastery point in a mastery line that is almost entirely useless. The result is that the few times we face grind in GW2, it just plain sucks.

[Obtena.7952]

@voltaicbore.8012 said:I like that GW2 for the most part doesn't really have intense grinds.

Right ... so 13 months ago, @Mortifera.6138 was so enamored by this truth that he made a post about it. Since then, he's made a number of threads complaining about how grindy the game is, even though whatever 'not grindy' things he was praising before didn't change. And it's not just about IBS for him ... he's claiming since HOT, it's a ridiculous grind, so something isn't honest there. This thread feels that it's simply about pushing a sore point to incite people to complain about the game. We are going to make sure there is a BALANCED discussion around these kinds of threads.

Sure, IBS has some MP's behind these weapon collections and other content people aren't necessarily interested it, but that's not a problem about grind. It's a problem about distribution of mastery points. The implication that GW2 is STILL just a 'side' MMO is just someone trying to take the piss from Anet, which is absurd to begin with, like it wasn't a legit MMO to begin with. Obviously that's nonsensical.

[lezbefriends.7516]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@voltaicbore.8012 said:I like that GW2 for the most part doesn't really have intense grinds.

Right ... so 13 months ago, @Mortifera.6138 was so enamored by this truth that he made a post about it. Since then, he's made a number of threads complaining about how grindy the game is, even though whatever 'not grindy' things he was praising before didn't change. And it's not just about IBS for him ... he's claiming since HOT, it's a ridiculous grind, so something isn't honest there. This thread feels that it's simply about pushing a sore point to incite people to complain about the game. We are going to make sure there is a BALANCED discussion around these kinds of threads.

Sure, IBS has some MP's behind these weapon collections and other content people aren't necessarily interested it, but that's not a problem about grind. It's a problem about distribution of mastery points. The implication that GW2 is STILL just a 'side' MMO is just someone trying to take the kitten from Anet, which is absurd to begin with, like it wasn't a legit MMO to begin with. Obviously that's nonsensical.

My gf told me I’m the “side man”, so maybe I’m projecting. ?

On a serious note, I said HoT introduced hardcore content, such as raids. And now there is grind. The grind happened with The Icebrood Saga.

[Obtena.7952]

@Mortifera.6138 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@voltaicbore.8012 said:I like that GW2 for the most part doesn't really have intense grinds.

Right ... so 13 months ago, @Mortifera.6138 was so enamored by this truth that he made a post about it. Since then, he's made a number of threads complaining about how grindy the game is, even though whatever 'not grindy' things he was praising before didn't change. And it's not just about IBS for him ... he's claiming since HOT, it's a ridiculous grind, so something isn't honest there. This thread feels that it's simply about pushing a sore point to incite people to complain about the game. We are going to make sure there is a BALANCED discussion around these kinds of threads.

Sure, IBS has some MP's behind these weapon collections and other content people aren't necessarily interested it, but that's not a problem about grind. It's a problem about distribution of mastery points. The implication that GW2 is STILL just a 'side' MMO is just someone trying to take the kitten from Anet, which is absurd to begin with, like it wasn't a legit MMO to begin with. Obviously that's nonsensical.

My gf told me I’m the “side man”, so maybe I’m projecting. ?

On a serious note, I said HoT introduced hardcore content, such as raids. And

now

there is grind. The grind happened with The Icebrood Saga.

Except you make your 'I LOVE GW2 because there is no grind" thread AFTER IBS was a thing ... so that doesn't make sense. Also, the grind is optional anyways and it's similar to other 'grindy' activities and achievements from the past as well ... the things that would have existed BEFORE you made your thread about how much you love GW2 because it's no grind. So it's not both ... either you hate the grind (the one we have ALWAYS had because grinding something in this game is STILL and always has been optional) or you don't.

I mean, it doesn't even make sense to relate grind to GW2 STILL being a 'side' MMO WTH that means. If you got a problem with the game, just say it because there is no value in putting a thinly veiled frosting on whatever issue you have to argue with people.

[Randulf.7614]

@Mortifera.6138 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@voltaicbore.8012 said:I like that GW2 for the most part doesn't really have intense grinds.

Right ... so 13 months ago, @Mortifera.6138 was so enamored by this truth that he made a post about it. Since then, he's made a number of threads complaining about how grindy the game is, even though whatever 'not grindy' things he was praising before didn't change. And it's not just about IBS for him ... he's claiming since HOT, it's a ridiculous grind, so something isn't honest there. This thread feels that it's simply about pushing a sore point to incite people to complain about the game. We are going to make sure there is a BALANCED discussion around these kinds of threads.

Sure, IBS has some MP's behind these weapon collections and other content people aren't necessarily interested it, but that's not a problem about grind. It's a problem about distribution of mastery points. The implication that GW2 is STILL just a 'side' MMO is just someone trying to take the kitten from Anet, which is absurd to begin with, like it wasn't a legit MMO to begin with. Obviously that's nonsensical.

My gf told me I’m the “side man”, so maybe I’m projecting. ?

On a serious note, I said HoT introduced hardcore content, such as raids. And

now

there is grind. The grind happened with The Icebrood Saga.

No, grind existed from start of GW2. It has always been there and as I said earlier, it was a lot worse because the options to gain materials and items involved doing the grind other MMOs insist on players. Legendaries were a nightmare to get until we started to get champ bags, map rewards and better drop rates.

There are more things to grind for and some things could use a bit of tuning down, but grind in GW2 is not new and certainly did not suddenly happen with Icebrood Saga

[mrcodez.6987]

@"Mortifera.6138" said:Is Guild Wars 2 still a game you play with other games, or has it taken up most of your time now?

I play GW2 along with WoW and other games. I'm definitely on-and-off with GW2 but it's a fun game. So far I've got a lvl 65 engineer that's fun to play. I've tried out warrior, mage, and a rogue, currently working on a mesmer. All of them in various states of below lvl 30.

I like the combat and zone completion in GW2 and the story is pretty engaging for me. It's alot fun trying out the different builds as well. Crafting seems useful in this game, at least during leveling, which was a welcome change. Other big thing for me is that I can just log in and play and it doesn't have to be a dedicated time chunk where any mistake ruins a "run" for me and whoever I'm playing with. I'm definitely in the casual end of the game but I find the payment model great. Pay for expansions, no monthly sub, cash shop if you want it. Works well for me as a game I can easily play and keep alongside everything else.

[Redfeather.6401]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Redfeather.6401 said:I really wish stuff would be tuned down to not require 250 of this and 250 of that and 100 of these things are are made up of 100 of these smaller things. The game has so much stuff to collect and unlock but so, so many things are so grindy I can't even bother to collect most skins in game. If I look at eso's stickerbook system that is something that keeps me playing a long time without feeling burnt out.

You can blame the crowd that completes content as fast as possible and then complains about there being nothing to do.Is that really the cause. Because other mmorpgs don't have this problem.

[kharmin.7683]

@Redfeather.6401 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Redfeather.6401 said:I really wish stuff would be tuned down to not require 250 of this and 250 of that and 100 of these things are are made up of 100 of these smaller things. The game has so much stuff to collect and unlock but so, so many things are so grindy I can't even bother to collect most skins in game. If I look at eso's stickerbook system that is something that keeps me playing a long time without feeling burnt out.

You can blame the crowd that completes content as fast as possible and then complains about there being nothing to do.Is that really the cause. Because other mmorpgs don't have this problem.

How many of those others are free to play models with no sub, optional or otherwise? How many of those other MMOs have a more significant, and regular, revenue stream to allow for a constant flow of content?

EDIT: and how many of those have the same horizontal progression model that GW2 has? Sure, it's easy to always have something to do in other MMOs when players have to constantly replace/upgrade gear.

[Dnes.9157]

@"Randulf.7614" said:No, grind existed from start of GW2. It has always been there and as I said earlier, it was a lot worse because the options to gain materials and items involved doing the grind other MMOs insist on players. Legendaries were a nightmare to get until we started to get champ bags, map rewards and better drop rates.

There are more things to grind for and some things could use a bit of tuning down, but grind in GW2 is not new and certainly did not suddenly happen with Icebrood Saga

The grind is not the worst thing here. A time-bound grind is the worst part. Daily "hearts", daily "chests", daily "loot", daily EVERYTHING. Everything is limited to the word "Daily"! This is annoying and upsetting. I think that EoD will become the king of the"daily". What I was leaving, having eaten enough in WoW, Lotro, etc, I met here. Unfortunately.

[aspirine.6852]

I dont know, I dont like any other MMO :/

[Danikat.8537]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Redfeather.6401 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Redfeather.6401 said:I really wish stuff would be tuned down to not require 250 of this and 250 of that and 100 of these things are are made up of 100 of these smaller things. The game has so much stuff to collect and unlock but so, so many things are so grindy I can't even bother to collect most skins in game. If I look at eso's stickerbook system that is something that keeps me playing a long time without feeling burnt out.

You can blame the crowd that completes content as fast as possible and then complains about there being nothing to do.Is that really the cause. Because other mmorpgs don't have this problem.

How many of those others are free to play models with no sub, optional or otherwise? How many of those other MMOs have a more significant, and regular, revenue stream to allow for a constant flow of content?

EDIT: and how many of those have the same horizontal progression model that GW2 has? Sure, it's easy to always have something to do in other MMOs when players have to constantly replace/upgrade gear.

That and they might not require you to collect a bunch of materials or tokens, but they require you to get that new gear as a random drop.

I don't play most other MMOs but I know people in Elder Scrolls Online were less likely to complain about having nothing to do (although it absolutely does happen) but far more likely to complain about having to spend their time playing the same dungeon/s over and over and over again hoping to finally get the drops they need for their build. I've heard it's the same in World of Warcraft and probably other MMOs as well.

ESO recently introduced a system which is basically the GW2 wardrobe but for stat sets (they have hundreds of different item sets) which immediately lead to concerns that soon it would be impossible to find groups for dungeons because once someone has got all the set pieces they'd never go back. Apparently none of them actually want to be doing that content or would choose to play it because they enjoy it, they're just stuck spending their time hoping for a drop. (I say 'they' rather than 'we' because I could never be bothered with that, I just stick with inferior crafted sets so I don't have to waste my time grinding drops.) Although it's relatively new, so most players haven't gotten everything yet and are still stuck spending their time grinding dungeons. (And have frequently asked for a token system so that after some number of dungeon runs you can just buy the piece/s which just aren't dropping for you.)

In terms of time spend it might be fairly similar but of the two I'd prefer to spend my time on a system where at least I know I've made some progress because I've collected some of the tokens, rather than the one where if I don't get the drop I need it feels like I've wasted my time trying, and might not get it next time either, or the time after that, or the time after that...

[Tukaram.8256]

It is the only MMO I currently play, but very casually. I have never seen a dungeon, and do not know what fractals are. There is no grind if I just bash critters for fun. ?