Playing the game without referring to the wiki or other online resource

[Rasimir.6239]

9 minutes ago, Rukia.4802 said:

I could walk to work but I'm not gonna do it because that would take forever.

Wiki is required to do much in this game unless you are one very dedicated masochist, to argue this point is ridiculous. 

Sometimes I think ANet actually want you to spend most of your time tabbed out of the game or on your phone.

Fun fact: if I don't have any pressing appointments and the weather is nice, I often get off/on the subway two or three stations away from where I work to walk the rest of the way 😉 .

 

If you don't like exploring on your own, that's fine, but rpgs have always been a game for explorer types, too. You might be surprised how many of your fellow gamers actually like that the game offers lots of opportunities to explore a fantasy world.

 

To me, fighting is just a small part of the game. I enjoy to find a hidden chest in an out-of-the-way cave just as much as I enjoy figuring out a boss fight somewhere. If fight mechanics were the only thing you could discover in this game, then I probably wouldn't play it.

[HappyHubris.1096]

3 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

What is your goal when playing GW2? Why do you feel the need to look things up in the wiki? Is it just a numbers game to you ("need to have max level/max crafting/max mastery asap")? Is there anybody pushing you to finish things quicker than you could explore and discover them on your own time?

This depends on playtime and your skill at remembering virtual worlds.  For example, "Dreams of a Thorn" would have been basically impossible for me to complete without outside assistance.

 

Now the counter-argument is that not all content needs to be possible for all players, but I think GW2 falls on the "less intuitive" side of the curve. I play single-player games without wikis, but GW2 just throws mountains of information and possibilities at the player.

[Cuks.8241]

14 minutes ago, Rukia.4802 said:

I could walk to work but I'm not gonna do it because that would take forever.

Wiki is required to do much in this game unless you are one very dedicated masochist, to argue this point is ridiculous. 

I dont need to argue anything, I can only tell you how I play. I rarely use wiki, I dont use it for crafting. I have only a few hours per week of playtime and also play some mobas and I still managed to complete a few legendaries and longer collections like ones for ascended backpacks, precursors... 

[Zizou.2358]

I'd have to be some hard core nolife to figure out all those achievements, crafting etc by myself. 

[HappyHubris.1096]

1 minute ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

Fun fact: if I don't have any pressing appointments and the weather is nice, I often get off/on the subway two or three stations away from where I work to walk the rest of the way 😉 .

 

If you don't like exploring on your own, that's fine, but rpgs have always been a game for explorer types, too. You might be surprised how many of your fellow gamers actually like that the game offers lots of opportunities to explore a fantasy world.

 

To me, fighting is just a small part of the game. I enjoy to find a hidden chest in an out-of-the-way cave just as much as I enjoy figuring out a boss fight somewhere. If fight mechanics were the only thing you could discover in this game, then I probably wouldn't play it.

But you're presenting this as a black-and-white choice between exploring and fighting.  Every player will engage in a mix, and games are a blend of what is explained and what is discoverable.  People can both enjoy exploration and feel that the in-game "hints" or explanations are on the average too light. It sounds like documenting in-game lore and possibilities is a hobby of yours (though you do mention referencing wikis), but not everyone shares the same passion to the same extent.

 

As a game with horizontal level 80 progression, GW2 throws a LOT of information and possibilities at the player. It also is light on in-game organization, documentation, and the like.  This combines to make it functionally a wiki game for people who have limited time and still want to experience the content.  Especially if you haven't continuously played for the past 10 years and are digesting big chunks of content.

[Omega.6801]

MMOs tend to have some complexity attached to them. This to give the game depth, or at least the feel of depth, and to keep people engaged and/or busy while they play, assuming people want to play the game for a long time. GW2 is relatively simple when compared to other titles in this regard.

 

Why is using the wik or other online resources a bad thing? After all there's even a chat command that will open either the wiki's main page(/wiki) or, if you want to know something specific, the specific wiki page of any given item/achievement/npc/region/quest/etc. (/wiki [whateveritisyouarelookingfor]). If this was an offline game I might get what's the problem, but since you're online anyway and the game kinda offers you the service of opening the wiki for you, I'm kinda lost on this one. That there is this function should be advertised better to new players though.

 

I'm old enough to remember having to get you tips and tricks, your guides and walkthroughs from magazines or friends. Having certain resources online along with the huge hivemind of players is a big advantage. It is how you organize things I guess. If I want something handy everaytime, I write it down in a notebook, if it's something I need to know once, I'will write it on a scrapof paper, if I want to be quick when looking something up(crafting things or achievemets that take more than one session f.e.), i save a bookmark of the wiki/guide/video.

[HappyHubris.1096]

1 minute ago, lokh.2695 said:

MMOs tend to have some complexity attached to them. This to give the game depth, or at least the feel of depth, and to keep people engaged and/or busy while they play, assuming people want to play the game for a long time. GW2 is relatively simple when compared to other titles in this regard.

 

Why is using the wik or other online resources a bad thing? After all there's even a chat command that will open either the wiki's main page(/wiki) or, if you want to know something specific, the specific wiki page of any given item/achievement/npc/region/quest/etc. (/wiki [whateveritisyouarelookingfor]). If this was an offline game I might get what's the problem, but since you're online anyway and the game kinda offers you the service of opening the wiki for you, I'm kinda lost on this one. That there is this function should be advertised better to new players though.

 

I'm old enough to remember having to get you tips and tricks, your guides and walkthroughs from magazines or friends. Having certain resources online along with the huge hivemind of players is a big advantage. It is how you organize things I guess. If I want something handy everaytime, I write it down in a notebook, if it's something I need to know once, I'will write it on a scrapof paper, if I want to be quick when looking something up(crafting things or achievemets that take more than one session f.e.), i save a bookmark of the wiki/guide/video.

The wiki isn't bad; we're just observing that GW2 is more convoluted and less internally-explained than other MMOs (exacerbated by horizontal progression).

[LuRkEr.9462]

1 hour ago, Rukia.4802 said:

I could walk to work but I'm not gonna do it because that would take forever.

Wiki is required to do much in this game unless you are one very dedicated masochist, to argue this point is ridiculous. 

Sometimes I think ANet actually want you to spend most of your time tabbed out of the game or on your phone.

 

I can tell you one thing for certain, when cantha drops I will be using the wiki religiously because I didn't sign up to be a detective. I just want to play the game and when I notice something is about to throw me through a loop I immediately google/youtube/wiki that crap because I cannot be bothered. Give me a hard fight, I'll figure it out myself. Give me a stupid 'puzzle', I use that term loosely, designed to waste my time and frustrate me well I'll let someone else figure that out instead.

 

I think /wiki literally being a function inside the game should speak for itself. I can't even imagine doing some collections blind, that would likely result in a fast uninstall.

 

This is literally every MMO though. There is so much to do in most games, even non-mmos that you will go to the various resources to see how to do something quicker. I don't see how this can be a complaint, its literally every game.

 

Edit:

To be clear I only use the wiki in this game for achievements sometimes to make it easier. I go to other sites for builds also.

But this is something in every game, RPGs what build? go to a web site to be optimized or you end up playing a slower build. 

Starcraft type game? go to a web site and look up strategies else not be as good and take longer climbing ladder.

First person shooters? go to a web site and look up best weapons, strategies, etc. 

 

There is very few games where you won't go to a web site to look up something. You don't have to, its a choice.

Edited May 25, 2021 by LuRkEr.9462
Clearing it up

[Cuks.8241]

2 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

The wiki isn't bad; we're just observing that GW2 is more convoluted and less internally-explained than other MMOs (exacerbated by horizontal progression).

But it is still explained to some extent, usually enough that you are able to figure it out quite fast. Sure you will come to a point where it would take unreasonable amount of time or resources to figure it out (like the final steps of legendaries), but those are actually scarcer then most think. 

It is not wow or similar where the exploration is practically non existent because the game will guide you every step of the way. At least in later expansions. 

It's also not like old school rpgs where pen and paper and pixel hunting were a must.

I like GW2 amount of info. It's just enough to make you explore and actually read tips. And if that is not enough for some, they have wiki.

And saying this type of playing is no life is funny. I would say being obsessed by completing everything and fast is more that way (not relevant to quote). 

[Khisanth.2948]

3 hours ago, LuRkEr.9462 said:

go to a web site to be optimized or you end up playing a slower build

or just to check if you might have missed some interesting interactions between skills/passives

 

3 hours ago, LuRkEr.9462 said:

There is very few games where you won't go to a web site to look up something. You don't have to, its a choice.

there are very few things in life where it wouldn't be beneficial to look at other people's approach to things

 

that includes people doing things wrong, like in cooking you might see "oh this is why you add this before that otherwise you get boiling oil splattered on yourself"

 

The only really compelling argument is "I don't to alt+tab" otherwise it is just a difference between a step by step in game guide versus a step by step external guide. Maybe the in game guide can be better disguised to give a false sense of accomplishment ...

[Rukia.4802]

9 hours ago, LuRkEr.9462 said:

 

This is literally every MMO though. There is so much to do in most games, even non-mmos that you will go to the various resources to see how to do something quicker. I don't see how this can be a complaint, its literally every game.

 

Edit:

To be clear I only use the wiki in this game for achievements sometimes to make it easier. I go to other sites for builds also.

But this is something in every game, RPGs what build? go to a web site to be optimized or you end up playing a slower build. 

Starcraft type game? go to a web site and look up strategies else not be as good and take longer climbing ladder.

First person shooters? go to a web site and look up best weapons, strategies, etc. 

 

There is very few games where you won't go to a web site to look up something. You don't have to, its a choice.

Its really not every MMO, apparently you haven't played many if you think they're all designed as one huge scavenger hunt like GW2 is. Not even gonna dignify your strawman with a rebuttal but yeah GW2 is pretty unique in the realm of MMOs when it comes to collections. I'm using that term broadly so I don't have to point out every single annoying thing. Playing the game blind w/o outside sources is straight up masochism. Name 1 other MMO that is similar.. I'll wait. Though I don't expect a relevant reply since I've played them all and none require research like GW2.

[Danikat.8537]

12 hours ago, Rukia.4802 said:

Its really not every MMO, apparently you haven't played many if you think they're all designed as one huge scavenger hunt like GW2 is. Not even gonna dignify your strawman with a rebuttal but yeah GW2 is pretty unique in the realm of MMOs when it comes to collections. I'm using that term broadly so I don't have to point out every single annoying thing. Playing the game blind w/o outside sources is straight up masochism. Name 1 other MMO that is similar.. I'll wait. Though I don't expect a relevant reply since I've played them all and none require research like GW2.

For one example how would you find out where to get different gear sets in Elder Scrolls Online, only using the information in the game itself? You've just gotten your first character to CP160, or a new one to level 50 and you want to get them ready for vet dungeons. What do you need? Where do you find it? What options are even available? (And that's not just some random collection for achievement points or a new skin, that's the gear you'll need for your character to be useful.)

 

For that matter just finding out the intended order for the story usually requires external guides in ESO. The zone guide will give you some basic pointers towards the major quests for the map you're currently in, but no information on how the maps join together and there's no way except past experience to tell the difference between a quest that's part of your current storyline and the one from an identical NPC standing right next to them which is a prologue to a recent DLC that's supposed to come much later. It's probably one of the most common complaints on the forum, aside from the unreliable servers and varying opinions on balance.

 

ESO also has numerous achievements which give you little/no information on how to complete them, like the various collector ones (nature collector, atronach element collector etc.) which only list the items you have to find. Some of those only come from very specific enemies in certain places (like the Stony Heart for the monster collection, which only comes from gargoyles in The Shadow Cleft) but the game won't tell you that, it just lists the names of the items.

[Lyssia.4637]

It's funny, I actually use the wiki much less in ESO than GW, but that's in part because I tend to play ESO much as I played the single-person ES games in the past.  I'm sure that will change if I ever start doing more with other players or try PvP.

 

I feel like GW can be tackled either way, (wiki or not) but there's a lot of assumption on the part of other players that you'll just "wiki" it, and therefore little patience in certain events and such if someone is trying to figure out mechanics and didn't look it up beforehand.  I'm happy to look things up, but have stumbled into things I didn't know had a special mechanic.  In that sense, I feel like the wiki is necessary more for playing with others than for playing the game itself. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Lyssia.4637

[Obtena.7952]

I never understand this complaint ... so how do you learn to do things? Since I've started playing games, there have been manuals and guides for them ... except I'm old enough to remember that you had to go to the bookstore to buy them because they were printed ... on paper. 

 

Now for some reason, it's offensive to refer to guides on the internet to do things ingame? That's absurd. Where do you think all this information should reside? or maybe you think the game should be so simple that you don't need to know anything? 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Game of Bones.8975]

The Wiki and any other sites are just tools to use, or not to use, as you see fit. 

 

They are only tools to help future players much like this very forum.

[SweetPotato.7456]

On 5/25/2021 at 6:55 AM, TheBravery.9615 said:

Why is this game so convoluted in regards with crafting, achievements, and soulbound mission related trophies? This is a major gripe I have with this game.

I've play this game without any GW2wiki or youtube video or guide for the first few (3-4, if not mistaken) years.  Be patient. You don't get everything you want immediately. GW2wiki or any guide out there are extra helps. For crafting you really do not need any help at all, for legendary crafting everything you need is in the achievement panel. 

[keenedge.9675]

The last few years have brought a big wave of people that expect the game to be simple and fast.  If you were to play only 8 hours a day, this game has over 2 years playtime of content.  Even veteran players can't remember everything.

 

A player can get to 80 fairly quickly without doing the side quests or crafting and enjoy end-game activities.  The other things are activities for players who joined to play an immersive RPG which happens to also be an MMO game.  Do what you like.  You will make yourself angry/crazy trying to do everything and get rich in a month.

[chrispy.7182]

I simply would not and could not do many achievements in this game without guides like videos from Ayin Maiden. Imagine doing the mursaat Token collector achievement without external help!  I would end up rage quitting the game. 

[Obfuscate.6430]

I agree with you OP. 
There are many times when I am playing with my boyfriend where we were both confused, and a little exhausted after trying to figure out something for ourselves and having no other option but to seek out some kind of guide. Somethings feel like they should be intuitive or obvious but they are not. Sometimes this is intentional - like on jumping puzzles where the puzzle aspect is part of the fun - but at other times, it's a hindrance to meaningful game play. 
I don't resent having to use guides for some of the more mysterious things but for basic needs it's so strange to me.