WvW gamemode makes people toxic, hate other people, even entire nations

[joneirikb.7506]

24 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

While you are getting alot of pushback in this thread, I think you are onto something with this ... you are just misdirecting your frustrations.

It isn't WvW that causes these things. However, a developer that signals no interest in a mode and its players also signals to those players that they should not care. Once players no longer care they cease to be constructive and invested, possibly becomming destructive and aloof. I think that is a fair assumption for ingame content as well as discussion forums. Then of course that can spill over onto other players and make their day-to-day frustrating but those things alone are not really the problem (eg., spawn camping can be solved, however the context it appears in [population imbalance et. al.] can feel impossible).

So you're saying that the Developers not having cared about the game mode, has affected players into not caring? I guess I can see the argument, but not really buying that that would be the main cause.

 

If we're going to focus on the angle that players "does not care", then I'd start with goals, or the lack of them. WvW is by nature a mode that is too big for individual players to set own goals, and too logistically hard to make proper team goals (without burning out players, as per the tournaments). 

 

I'd agree with you from there on out, with how this apathy or lack of motivation/care can affect the player base in general.

 

And the question of how ANet could possibly make systems that lets players set realistic goals in WvW, that players actually would like and strive for, is probably beyond them (and most certainly beyond the player-base).

[subversiontwo.7501]

40 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

So you're saying that the Developers not having cared about the game mode, has affected players into not caring? I guess I can see the argument, but not really buying that that would be the main cause.

It may have been me not expressing it very well, it's getting rather late here.

 

I was mostly going for underlining that when the OP talks about things being unfair or imbalanced, those are one thing. When the OP refer to "WvW" or uses spawn camping as an example, those are something different. Ie., spawn camping is usually not malicious, it's usually rather casual out of boredom (for both sides) and it shouldn't envoke strong feelings either. In the realm of "WvW" (as intended, its design and content) it isn't necessarily a problem and it has "in-WvW" solutions and work arounds. Apart of a larger context however where systemic issues makes such a situation appear out of its norms and can't solved within its norms then it is understandable if frustrations boil over for either or both sides or it is understandable that a detachment can make players behave a bit more malicious than just being bored, out of the spite for the situation. Does it make sense putting it like that? I'm unsure. The point being that "WvW" and "spawn camping" can be natural, have its natural solutions and have its natural reactions. Then it is apart of WvW or what it is intended to be. If systemic issues makes it something that isn't within that scope of its nature then actions and reactions within it are also prone to reach out beyond some sort of normal behaviour. Eh, anyway, I feel like I'm not getting closer to what I am attempting to convey by taking another angle like this.

 

Ed.

Even shorter put: Some imbalances can be contained by the system (and approached within the system), others can not.

Edited August 2, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[DanAlcedo.3281]

13 hours ago, Daredevil.2745 said:

why there is a score system and serverleadeboard then? Why there were tournaments then in the past?

 There is no server leader bord. 

That's why you can only look up the "placing" on 3party websites. 

 

 

[Daredevil.2745]

25 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

 There is no server leader bord. 

That's why you can only look up the "placing" on 3party websites. 

 

 

https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/eu

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 minute ago, Daredevil.2745 said:

https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/eu

 I stand corrected my good sir. 

 

I play Wvw since launch and have never seen this before. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Last night I returned home from work and wanted to play a bit in WvW. Cheese stuff. There like 2 FA weavers, then became 3, then I joined with my Ele. Tailing a zerg and bursting people. 

 

A ranger was busted entirely randomly. After an hour he started chasing me and killing me (I'm kinda bad on Core FA sustain) and jumping on my corpse and kitten. Throwing siege too. Simple solution. Told them, please no need to be so harsh about a death right? They apologized for their behavior and let me alone. 

 

See, this person understood. A Renegade with his 20 man havoc group spawn camping us BBL, interrupting our duels and killing people and throwing siege on us is the player you get nowadays. It's sad, but it's part of the mode. If they refuse to comply to your request, ignore them, swap maps. 

 

If you find them with their guard down, one shot them 😁

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

WvW doesn't make people toxic. WvW shows us the person that we hide.  In your case, it is anger. Try to find the true reason for your anger without directing your blame. I hope that this helps. For me, the reason that I got angry was because when I lost a fight, people would taunt me. The root cause of the my anger was because they were against my values. I respect everyone and they were against it. Once I figured that out, I accepted that we had different viewpoints. Hope that this helps.

[Bristingr.5034]

On 8/1/2021 at 5:16 AM, Daredevil.2745 said:

Conclusion. When a pvp gamode is so much unfair and disbalanced, it creats hate, national hate as well, it makes people toxic and rude. Espectially when you see that developers encourge such state of play.

All's fair in love and war.

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

2 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

 

In my country we have a saying that's like "When the wise people do always retreat, then the idiots will start to rule the world.".

I don't know whether there is an equivalent in english, but anyway this describes your (strange) view on the topic.

 

If people behave like dicks, then the last thing you should do is find "arguments" why this might be okay (different "viewpoints" - seriously???) or even worse blame yourself and your standards. That's the mentality of a loser and when it comes to bullying: of a victim.

It's harder to change people, so it is better to improve yourself. I never said that it was ok. You misconceived what I was trying to say. Some people have different values as I said. Some want to be jerks so the best that you can do is to improve yourself.

[XenesisII.1540]

You can change the rules all you want, you can try and make everything even, even sides, even stats, even equipment, even matching making ratings, heck even same class, in the end player skill will still be uneven, and there will always be someone better or worse than you.

 

Removing all these things from wvw does nothing to cure the toxicity or hate, that comes naturally in every single pvp game that involves actively trying to kill other players. It gets worse as everyone is anonymous and there's no real consequences to your actions, they will freely brag and make fun of you because they think it's fun and because they can. You can can try to ban people, neuter bad words, remove emotes, remove chat channels, and create a safe space, but none of that changes people. If you start being toxic, start hating other players, start hating other nationalities of those players, then that's a you problem, not the game mode or the game.

 

If you can't handle these annoyances, then you're probably better off going to pve, where you can just as well do ktrains or meta maps, all the while in zergs fighting the common npcs enemies, and not have to listen anyone say "bad stuff" or not get siege buried by npcs, and overall save yourself some stress.

 

Wvw is uneven, every single second of a match, it was never meant to be strictly even, it couldn't possibly be in it's large open 24/7 format. Even when you manage to have all three sides enter at the same time, and keep the population so it's 60v60v60 you're still going to be uneven because it's your 60 vs 120 enemy. You could be in a 1v1 and any second that could turn into a 1v2. That is the nature of wvw being a huge giant open war between three sides over four maps, and the fun of it where one minute you could be in a good 1v1 duel, next minute you could be caught up in a 5v6 fight over a camp, next minute your could suddenly be in a giant zerg fight of 30v30, the next hour you could be in a fun 40v40 fight over a keep.

 

It could just as well be in a 1v3 that you lost and got buried, a 5v10 at the camp you lost, 30 pugs v 20 boonball that you lost, and 10v50 blob that you dumped siege on to no affect, getting spawn camped at one of three exits, but that doesn't mean you could never be on the other side of those numbers either. And because wvw is open, there's ways to get away from the terrible situations. You don't have to sit at spawn and get camped, you don't have to roam on a queued map, you don't have to run some terribad dr jekyll mr hyde non meta roaming build to fight in zergs.

 

And while there are indeed many uneven things about the mode, especially the population (alliances should hopefully help with this a little), it doesn't mean it needs to be completely changed/scrapped for something entirely different. There are many that still love this game mode, despite it's long list of problems, for what it is. Even after nine years, with a dwindled population, it's probably still more popular than the pve raids. If you want to ask for changes/upgrades for existing wvw, cool, if you want to play something different from wvw, then go to the general forums and ask anet for it, wvw doesn't need to be replaced by some half baked spvp mode.

Edited August 3, 2021 by XenesisII.1540

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 8/1/2021 at 2:16 PM, Daredevil.2745 said:

I was playing GW1 since 2006 till 2013, i was nice and relaxed players alwasy ready to help and so on (i was playing pvp there too, no toxicity).

GW2 realeased, i play PvE, im still same nice person.

Later a start playing WvW, while im a noob and don't understand how utterly broken WvW, im still helpful and nice person.

Later when i realised how unfair and disbalanced WvW in terms of population, when enemies spawncamping us becasue they simply had much more players, when they were lauging at us not being able to do anything with 10 players agains their full blobs, i started to be toxic, hate other people, hate entire nations (national servers casue national hate).

But I kept playing.

Later link system was introduced.... Anet allowed people cheap bandwagooning to linked server to win while other server were doomed to suffer full, without link, outnumbered. Matchmanupulation by the developers was the last point.

I became a very toxic, unhelpful player.

 

Conclusion. When a pvp gamode is so much unfair and disbalanced, it creats hate, national hate as well, it makes people toxic and rude. Espectially when you see that developers encourge such state of play.

THANK YOU for reading, fell free to discuss.

 

if u get spawncamped, it's partly still your own fault.

 

pvp modes just get people emotional. the national servers were a mistake, we know that by now.  english should be the language of normative communication, since like in international politics, it is the one language that people learn to speak and understand on the whole world.

(and i am saying that as native german/austrian, who would never ever set a foot on a german Wvw server, like many other open minded germans within Wvw as well)

 

next, u simply miss that this "devolution" happens all across the real life world as well.

 

and that YOU become toxic is not to blame on anyone else.

 

bandwagoning rofl. not even gonna comment this.

 

____

@DanAlcedo.3281 @Daredevil.2745

 

about the "server LeAdErBoArD".... it is as worthless as can be. the servers are NO STATIC objects. the population of a server changes up every few months so much, that u cannot even compare them with their status of 1 month ago. so how on earth makes a weird elo based leaderbord of servers by ppt score any sense?

 

so what is a leaderbord in that regard useful for?

 

it basically shows the biggest current ppters. lmfao. so it is kinda ... "avoid to be on these servers if u want to get good content and loot out of Wvw" .. or maybe a "easy kill targets to be found on these servers"-list. out of these "top 5" servers, only FoW has some strong players due to alt accounts and rather recent bandwagoning + link.

 

on the full page u see how outdated this stuff is. shows the 2014 wvw tournaments still x9 probably still same algorithm, counting since 2013 or so...

 

gw2mists.com gives a better overview, but without knowing the communities, the guilds, the alts, you can still not interprete the numbers directly always.

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[Gorem.8104]

Oh, this is a mag player then? Cause I know that is their outlook on their server, join a better server and you'll stop seeing toxic players 🙂

[Avengedeath.4671]

Lol I can relate to op.  I used to be a nice person too. Just keep plugging away.  Eat a snickers. Lol 😀

[bigo.9037]

Unusual but true reversal:

Hate the player, not the game.

 

if some guy is pissing you off, it’s your anger towards him, whatever he may have done. It’s not the game. There will always be ways to make fun of people. If you mute words, they still just find replacements. People are going to be toxic, it’s your responsibility to deal with it if you want to play wvw. 
 

But keep in mind, nobody likes losing. It’s normal be get a lil angry or pissed off every now and then. When people telling you they aren’t affected or never get annoyed etc., they are lying. Unless they are a robot or something.

[Fatal.1347]

On 8/2/2021 at 2:51 AM, joneirikb.7506 said:

The link system didn't ruin anything that wasn't already broken, namely Transfers. It did make it easier, but the problem already existed since way back into beta. And in some ways, the linking system did actually improve on said problem, it made a theoretical possibility that links of 2-3 servers could possibly beat servers that had already been abusing the transfer system for years. The linking system, like most other things, brought both positive and negative sides.

Notably, it made more than half the servers actually have enough population to see a zerg every now and then. There where plenty of people that didn't bother playing because they couldn't zerg at all in WvW because the population was just too low. (Personally I miss roaming heaven T8, but I realise I'm in the minority, and don't expect ANet to change the game for just me).

And to the comments about match-manipulation, the main offender there is Transfers, so players, not ANet. They just run an algorithm to match the worlds by population, and click a button to run with it.

If you make a system that doesn't allow following:

- Long term goals for your servers playerbase (because players and guilds reset every 2 months and you have to start over taking care of the bottom feeders and timezones)

And does following:

- Overly cheap transfers

- Boring links have equal amount of players FORCING people to transfer
- 1 month every 2 months the matchmaking is ruined

- Keeps "overstacked" servers open through links
- Removing option of playing in or against less populated server if you prefer it so

Obviously the game will be worse for people. You can blame playerbase all you want but now it is practically one of those FPS games where you can swap sides with press of a button (1800 gems HURT but 500 doesn't). Obviously people will defect to winning team because losing and lack of activity never their fault.

So yes, the link system ruined lot of things

And all teams suck now because no server has consistant timezones: every 2 months commanders quit because overlap with linked commanders and change of playerbase destroying their habits.

If the option is in the game, and easy to do, it is developers fault. Don't blame the players. At least before the transfer heavy servers were against each other in higher tiers, now they just farm lower tier servers for 1 month every 2 months.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Balgorath.2604]

If playing video games makes your rage and hate nations this much I think it's safe to say the problem is you and you should seek help

[Junkpile.7439]

I blame players so much that half of eu have blocked me. 😎

[Mutant Poodle.6253]

Yes, I hear you for the WvW toxic environment.  This is true and no your feelings of utter frustration is valid.

 

Due to the complete and utter failure of the WvW game developers and leadership to continue upgrading and developing this aspect of GW2 WvW several things have occurred that can be summed up into few observations.  'Its boring, frustrating, stale, grossly unbalanced. 

 

Players are using game cheats:  radar, when the enemy have no way to know where your group is always and I mean always show up exactly where you are all the time and just run over you. Players from the one dominant guild or alliance are having other server players sabotage EB defenses.  Mounted players jumping over home keep fully intact walls.  Gate exploits where players can seemingly enter any tower or keep and take it over SOLO.  An ability to teleport from the SMC outer wall to the uppermost platform.  Players using one shot hacks or exploits while hiding in larger groups.  I could go on but why bother its not fun anymore and all the new players I brought in to share the cool things about the WvW have all quit (about 70) playing WvW because they don't stand a chance.  People don't buy the game and play it to be frustrated and disillusioned.  Bring back the flying Nun.

[DaVid Darksoul.4985]

I wonder if making areas like doors in the side of hills or embankments where you can enter and stand in a little room safe from harm would help. No more afk in the open where you get ganked, you can go in there and cool off or just get away from a stalker. As far as cheats and exploits, ya they suck.

[joneirikb.7506]

On 8/4/2021 at 1:04 PM, Fatal.1347 said:

 

I do agree that linking brought problems, but I also found most of those problems already existed in WvW from before as well.

- Long Term Goals: Linking did indeed make long term goals harder for the worlds that already had population. But at the same time, the lower half of the worlds didn't even have enough population to consider long term goals. So linking brought some kind of parity towards this. I do agree that long term goals is something that generally been thrown under the bus in WvW, but I think that's something that got sacrificed long before Linking.

- Overly Cheap Transfers: I don't see this as any better or worse than the whole blackouts worlds did in the past, to open up and try to stack in more players. I don't like either of them.

- Boring links: Not really sure what you mean with this one?

- 1 Month out of 2 is ruined: Depends on how you view it, some people like the first month best, because it's change and unpredictability, while others enjoy the later month when the tiers stabilize. I think it's a good compromise for giving something to all types of players.

- Keeps "overstacked" servers open through links: Well yes, but I still don't consider that worse than the old blackout system. And as we've seen a couple of times now, the link been stacked so high that they've become main servers. The population is actually evening out compared to how it used to be. So it looks more like we get specific World-Links that are stacked, but then split again the next linking. 

- Removing option of playing in or against less populated servers if you prefer it so: Yeah, this is the thing I personally feel the worst about linking. But I also remember there where lots of people on the old Bronze servers that wanted to zerg, and since we never had the population for that they just skipped WvW entirely. I still don't think it is a good idea to keep an entire world/match-up hostage to play either zerg or roaming only. I think this would have been solved better with making a specific roaming focused map, so roamers can go there to experience the old t8 roaming experience if they wanted to.

Regarding transfers: The devs put it in the game, and for good reasons, kind of need a way to let players play together with friends etc. Then they made it free the first half year or so, so you could transfer to any world you wanted to for free, and this was probably the dumbest thing ever done for WvW (was great for pve though). 

Yes, if the devs put it in the game, players are going to abuse it, that's what players do. And the free transfers just showed the playerbase early on that they could use this to mess up with match-ups (technically match manipulation). Stacking coverage and guilds. Then blackouting to stackin more. Paying for transfers etc. Players will do it, and ANet should have predicted this, and done something to deal with it.

But when it comes down to it, it's still the players that effectively ruin their own experience of the game abusing these. Neither players nor ANet is wrong for this, it's just the nature of the beast. Give players too much freedom and they will actually crash their own fun. Devs usually wants to give players enough freedom to make their own fun, and in doing so usually gives them too much freedom to sabotage themselves instead. 

[alcopaul.2156]

entire nations? 

 

hating the united nations is much hard..

[SweetPotato.7456]

I agree with the title to an extent. However, not everyone resort to being toxic as a respond to their surrounding. This week's match up, one of our enemy servers has one bad mouthing player whispering profanity to several of us the whole week.  The guy would run away every time you try to engage them in fights but would shot at you from far away. Then they whisper you with bad words. 

It only reflect upon yourself telling people that you are bad/broken.  

 

[Squeak.7093]

Sure if you got everyone in wvw to wear some sort of electrical charge hat that zapped them when they said/typed a bad nasty thing like "hah get gud you piece of trash charrwank". Otherwise its WvW. Its not meant to be fair. Life itself is not fair. If you want fair and non-toxic people, which most in wvw aren't toxic but alas there are a few, then go to PvE. Another game entirely might be an option where there is no PvP or WvW at all. You can't control people and what they do/say. Take a break from it, my dude. The only nations people could possibly hate are filthy charrs and their huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge tails. Always in the way when you look up.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 8/1/2021 at 7:16 AM, Daredevil.2745 said:

I was playing GW1 since 2006 till 2013, i was nice and relaxed players alwasy ready to help and so on (i was playing pvp there too, no toxicity).

GW2 realeased, i play PvE, im still same nice person.

Later a start playing WvW, while im a noob and don't understand how utterly broken WvW, im still helpful and nice person.

Later when i realised how unfair and disbalanced WvW in terms of population, when enemies spawncamping us becasue they simply had much more players, when they were lauging at us not being able to do anything with 10 players agains their full blobs, i started to be toxic, hate other people, hate entire nations (national servers casue national hate).

But I kept playing.

Later link system was introduced.... Anet allowed people cheap bandwagooning to linked server to win while other server were doomed to suffer full, without link, outnumbered. Matchmanupulation by the developers was the last point.

I became a very toxic, unhelpful player.

 

Conclusion. When a pvp gamode is so much unfair and disbalanced, it creats hate, national hate as well, it makes people toxic and rude. Espectially when you see that developers encourge such state of play.

THANK YOU for reading, fell free to discuss.

OP, if a  game can "Make" you become this kind of person, the problem most likely lies not with the game but with you.  Just look at how "toxic" you are to a lot of the people in this thread, you're lucky a Mod hasn't issued a strike on you.

Edited August 8, 2021 by The Greyhawk.9107

[ArchonWing.9480]

I agree; what a boring villain origin story that is.