Create a WvW map solely for players working on their PvE (ie. legendaries/dailies/warclaw mounts/etc.)

[Ronin.4501]

1 hour ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

That map is call Edge of the Mist. 

Be helpful, help them help yourself, they get the warclam and can go on their merry way faster. 

 

Outside of the new arena feature, does anyone even use that map anymore?  Personally I hated EotM when it was first introduced (due to the design of the map itself) and have only ventured back for the first time in years recently to make use of the arena for guild training.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Hm, have you realized all WvW Legendaries require pips? And tons of them?

 

And you don't have to be good at PvP to be a worthwhile addition to WvW:

 

Avoid the peak hours and avoid the big blobs. You can solo camps and sentries. You can repair structures. You can join a small group or commander squad that caps locations in the off-hours. If you are in a small group, you are extremely valuable by just carrying supplies, build what the commander / group builds and help killing the guards.

When your keep or castle gets attacked, don't fight in the blob but go to the broken gate/wall, destroy the enemy sieges and after that close the gate by spending just a few suppies on it. (Don't use all of the supplies tho. Other players also need them in the defense.)

 

You now are much more valuable than anyone in the blob because you just prevented the enemy from running in continuously. Also, if there are cannons and other defensive sieges, use them and you even get credits for kills that you help to make.

 

Of course, you will get destroyed many times. It's part of the game. Just go somewhere else and focus on whatever you can do. There are four maps, so there always is one that is quiet.

 

Stay active and the pips will keep flowing in, allowing you to save for your WvW legendaries without stress.

[Ronin.4501]

1 hour ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

That's actually a good sign for the mode, if more people are joining, even if they're only there for the "rewards" it means that more people are trying WvW. Recruitment is mostly a numbers game.

The entire game was built up around that you should do a bit of everything, and this was especially obvious in the legendary weapons which require you to play the entire game. Personally I believe that anyone that hates WvW doesn't deserve a Legendary weapon, same with anyone that refuses to touch PvE.

But the majority of the GW2 player-base is becoming more and more reward/goal focused, and thus more and more toxic when they don't get what they want (like having to go to WvW for the Gift). And Reward/Goal driven people generally speaking isn't going to like WvW, which is probably the most sandbox mode in the entire game. Which brings us back to recruitment being a numbers game, we need more players in to make a few stick.

---

Now, what you want/need/like, to be able to play in a map/area/mode with other dedicated wvw players. I suspect the best way to accomplish that is to organise events for it, stuff like the old GvG fights, or try to reach out to different servers/guilds and arrange meeting at specific place at reset (for ex) to have some good fights. But that's something that has to be player driven, as ANet won't do that. (After all, WvW to them is a PvP version of open world tyria zerg)

If ANet was willing to put resources and time into it, I think changing the maps around a bit could be a good way to solve this.

 

•     Keep EBG as it is.
•     Make a new map that is basically a circle with all the objectives on the ring, and impassable terrain on both sides of the ring. Make towers and keeps both block off access further so you ahve to at least break open the walls to go past them. This will make the map work like a constant 2 front war/siege. And players that would like constant action without reading the map would likely gravitate towards it. Still leaving some strategy with sending players to the other front etc.
•     A single roamer map with some kind of mechanic or penalty for when too many players gathers up in the same spot (to force the zergs to stay away, or they will come). That focuses more on a lot of smaller objectives, and probably lots of sneaky movement spots, traps, like a jungle.

This would probably be enough variety that most players would be able to find a map they like, and should help at least somewhat with not forcing every type of player together into EBG together. While also gathering people into fewer maps overall, making the EotM overflow also work for reset etc for the few times a week when it's needed.

This gets rid of the BorderLand system, and it's moronic lock forcing 3 identical/similar maps. Something I've wished to see gone for years now.

---

World-Restructure/Alliances isn't going to do anything about this per say. But it might make it easier for players to self organise and make arrangements between themselves. So players interested in more organised/planned play, might gather up into guilds, alliances, or discord servers. And use those to plan skrims and fights etc.

 

I both agree and disagree with the first part of your statement.  WvW does need the ability to recruit new players, but I think forcing players who have an intense dislike of PvP modes in general shouldn't be forced into those modes.  And as I said above, legendaries now are far more than just a pretty skin; they afford the player the ability to swap stats at will so they don't have to make 10 different stat sets of gear when "theory-crafting" as well as the ability to use that gear across all characters, giving you the ability to also try multiple different builds on multiple classes. 

 

Anet did the WvW community a HUGE HUGE disservice when they introduced the Mega-server system.  It was beneficial to the PvE community, but it destroyed the ability for WvW server-based communities to go recruit new players from PvE-settings such as Lion's Arch.  At least back before Mega-servers, when a WvW player went to LA to ask for help out in WvW, PvE players had the option of deciding whether or not they wanted to give it a try.  Anet's current method is forcing them to "try" WvW, even when (at least based on conversations I've had with PvE players) a lot of PvE players have no interest whatsoever in playing a PvP-mode.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the second part of your statement, I really like a lot of your suggestions.  Unfortunately, the key-phrase in your statement was "If ANet was willing to put resources and time into it...".  I just don't think they're willing to do this.  I think the only reason they're even bothering with Alliances at this point is because they've become very aware that the WvW game-mode has been hemorrhaging players for years, and if they don't do at least something to placate the community, there simply won't be a community anymore in the future.  Considering all the missteps they've already made year after year with Mega-servers, overpowered classes/builds/skills/boons/conditions, I think WvW and PvP will forever be an afterthought in GW2.  At lot of their missteps could've been prevented simply by communicating with the WvW and PvP developers before implementing so much of what they've done in PvE, but I just don't see it happening. 

 

1 hour ago, Gorani.7205 said:

Can we please stop creating "WvW reformation ideas", that divide the small player base of WvW even more?

 

If we need anything, then it is to create player agency to contribute to a matchup. While large battles happening between two forces are unique to WvW, other aspects are needed and should contribute to a "world vs. world" format. That does include flipping camps, roam to find and kill flippers, scout, refresh siege etc.
While "I am here only for Gifts of Battle" players will be good at none of the things mentioned above, they can still contribute, if they are told how to (either by the game itself or experienced WvW players). I absolutely hate the experience of getting killed, just because I try to help a PvE player in a small scale fight (because they see a chance to run away, now that I am there), but sometimes those can be allies for the next hour and have perhaps had some fun while playing with a more experienced player.

 

I am very worried about Alliances coming to GW2, not because I want everything to stay as it is, but because I fear that Anet gets influenced by the very vocal (and still very small) WvW community that thinks that zerg vs. zerg is the type everyone needs to play and support for WvW, alienating the "GoB players" and current roaming players so much that it will leave WvW in an even worse state than it is now.

 

Please see my response above to Joneirikb, as I would pretty much say the same to you.  We had a good system in place for recruiting new players to WvW before Mega-servers.  And Alliances could very possibly make it even worse than it is now.  But again, I don't think forcing the "GoB" players who would otherwise have no interest in a PvP-mode to play in the PvP-mode is the right way to go about it.  FWIW, I'm a player who primarily roams, so my original post had nothing to do with making WvW a zerg vs zerg-only mode.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

19 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I think you'd be surprised to learn that those who are scattering are more than likely to be actual WvW players on squishy roaming builds and can only cloud around and have to kite a lot.  PvE players who don't know what they're doing in WvW generally just stay standing on a point to try to cap it or they solo yolo into a group and get wiped easily.  They're not prone to having the awareness of positioning and knowing when a fight is lost ahead of time that WvW players gain through experience.

ah yes, giving up ahead of time and playing on crap zerk builds that yield no value to the group requires much experience. more likely they're leeching cuz they're too lazy/ casual to try and only log on when their favorite meat shield commander plays.

[joneirikb.7506]

Regarding forcing players to PvP or not. I honestly don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. It's what ANet has chosen, and all the things you can get from it are optional.

Regarding Legendary gear: It still cost around 10 sets of Ascended (or something like that, never bothered check the math). And honestly, outside of WvW and Raids, how many are going to use the stat changing? Most of the rest of the game you can play with Zerk with 1 or 2 build variations. So honestly not sold on that aspect being important, even with the legendary armoury stuff.

Yeah, Mega-Server was horrible for WvW, but awesome for the rest of the game. Probably in top 3 worst things done to WvW. They really should have changed WvW at the same time, though not really sure how. On the other hand, if they had, we might have ended up with EOTM system for entire WvW. (Still not entirely sure what I'd think about that. From some comments I've seen, EotM might be closer to what ANet originally envisioned for WvW. So it might have been a real danger.)

And unfortunately, yeah, we're never really going to see much change to WvW. It's been the forgotten stepchild since launch, and they put little resources into it, and seemingly doesn't have any developers that really burn for it to pull it forward. So we're stuck with what we have, and what little lipstick ANet can put on the pig to make it last a few more years. (At least PvP had it's moment in the sunshine, until they gave up on Esports in 2014).

So, we're left with Player initiative and organisation. It's the only thing that will ever let you see any changes. Grab a few guilds you like, make a discord, and start arranging stuff. Roaming group duels in EotM, GvG's, blob vs blob organised battles etc. Or just a place where a guild can say "Guy's we're on Server X, and we're going to run Map Y this reset, come get us if you want! We want good fights!"

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

technically u can just go red border. in most cases, the stronger groups / fighting blobs or zergs won't go there anyways.

 

and mate, idk if it really makes any sense to complain that u are "forced to pvp style combat" in a obvious largescale pvp style game mode.

 

i also would wish i could unlock a ton of pricey stuff, skins and legendary insights by just having some Wvw reward track on autorun, but that is just not how it works. or that i could farm a gift of exploration the same way as my 37 useless gifts of battle (when i just had the track running through on repeater bc i did want to stack loot boxes for a few weeks)

 

Wvw main players are yet the ones with the least effective income across like all gamemodes, so just don't complain.

Edited August 8, 2021 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[Ronin.4501]

6 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

technically u can just go red border. in most cases, the stronger groups / fighting blobs or zergs won't go there anyways.

 

and mate, idk if it really makes any sense to complain that u are "forced to pvp style combat" in a obvious largescale pvp style game mode.

 

i also would wish i could unlock a ton of pricey stuff, skins and legendary insights by just having some Wvw reward track on autorun, but that is just not how it works. or that i could farm a gift of exploration the same way as my 37 useless gifts of battle (when i just had the track running through on repeater bc i did want to stack loot boxes for a few weeks)

 

Wvw main players are yet the ones with the least effective income across like all gamemodes, so just don't complain.

 

I think you're misunderstanding me here?  I AM a WvW main.  My frustration was with having so many players forced into the WvW game-mode who don't want to be there, which results in a player base (which lately seems to be increasing) made up of players who don't even enjoy the game-mode.  If players want to be out in WvW, I'm all for it.  I have no problem with new players who are trying to learn the mode, because the hope is that even if they're bad, they'll eventually get better.  But it sucks for a commander to tag up and half of the players following are just asking, "When can we take a keep? I need it for this achievement".  Honestly, how many of you are really interested in playing WvW just to help another player who hates the game-mode get their achievements?  If WvW had no queues and no caps on population, it'd be different. 

 

It's essentially like the PvE-meta event commanders who have to deal with the likes of me when I've worked on my legendaries.  All I was doing at the Chak-boss event was trying to tag enough things to get credit so I could get my stupid achievement item and never go back.  I wasn't interested in learning how to run the meta.  I mean, I'm not complaining (well, maybe I was griping at the time lol) that I'm forced to do PvE every now and again, but having to go into PvP-style game-modes when you hate PvP is a very different ballgame in that the enemies are typically a lot worse (and definitely far more toxic) to deal with.

[Wintermute.5408]

Might as well complain here, as I'm one of those PVE players who stumbled into WvW for legendaries. I never thought I'll find an activity more braindead than PVE event zerging, yet here it is. And the  sole reason for this is participation timer and the way it works.

 

I came for specific rewards - mastery track for a gift. To optimize the process of getting that gift, I need to maintain tier 6 participation. And the single most effective way to do this is to plant my face into some ongoing moshpit and press 1 on downed people. That's it. The moment I try to go and do something - capture a camp maybe, or break away from moshpit to join a siege - I risk dying, either to enemy zerg counter-attacking, or to a roaming party. And if I die the usual WVW way - aka getting deleted in 2-3 seconds... that right. My participation timer doesn't get updated.

 

You just spent 4 minutes running towards that camp? Well too bad, try again, and you have only 3 more minutes till participation starts decaying. Better yet, somebody already captured that camp. Did you just try actually playing the mode and doing something? Too bad. Now go back to the moshpit and press 1 some more. At least you won't die there - as long as you don't try to do anything.

 

For the love of god anet, rework the track system. It sucks. Just sucks, and drags the whole mode down with it. Mode that would otherwise be an occasional, casual fun for me - would it not be running on a timer all the kitten time.

 

[Widmo.3186]

22 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

You might assume I'm a PvE player requesting this, but I'm actually requesting this as a WvW player.

 

WvW seems to be filling up with players who are solely in the game-mode because Anet has forced them to come out to work on their legendaries and warclaw mounts and dailies, and these players are constantly asking for the WvW-players to help them although they have absolutely no intention of actually sticking around in the game-mode or actually participating in WvW outside of working towards their PvE goals.

 

It's incredibly frustrating to think you have an equal number of allies alongside you, but the moment the enemy engages, they either scatter to the winds or focus on capping the camp/capping the sentry while the fight occurs just mere feet away.

 

Give these players a small, plain map that doesn't reward pips, doesn't reward WxP, doesn't yield WvW badges, has an eternally paper (T0) keep, tower, camp and a sentry.  And should they find that they actually enjoy fighting enemy players, then they are free to come over to the actual WvW maps and engage.  I realize we already have EotM, but there are enough actual WvW players there now that the arenas have been reworked.  Give the PvE players a "PvE" WvW map.

 

*Realized I neglected the whole Gift of Battle reward track.  Reward players with a GoB after 10/15/20 hours on the map.

 

WvW has enough PvE in it already without bringing out scores of players who hate the game-mode but are still forced to join it.  Stop punishing both the PvE players who hate the game-mode and at the same time punishing the WvW players who have to deal with them.

?
I cant see even a single decent sentence in this post. 
Why give PvE players a new map? Just give them a legendary, who cares about the so called "journey" of achieving it, just 2 clicks and thats it, shiny weapons is all yours!

Ive played WvW for many years, and not even a single time any1 asked me to help with his/her gift of the battle.
WvW is also a game-mode, I remind you that WvW-ers if want to do legendary they have to go and do that ******* gift of snoozeploration. And I also remind you, that you used to have to do exploration in WvW too to get that gift. So better be thankful that you dont need to wait sometimes 3 weeks to get all garrison PoIs anymore.

And I dont think WvW-ers care so much about PvE lads. Theyre just a cannon fodder, sometimes more sometimes less useful, but theyre people that fill the game mode. Personally Id love to have map filled only with PvP players so each encounter is at least thrilling in 1%. But no, thats fine, not every1 is interested in fighting other players, let them be.

[ArchonWing.9480]

12 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I'm starting to realize that a majority of the PvE players actually want the WvW-focused players out in PvE so they can have more dps to call themselves "good".

 

Does that sound stupid to you or is it a reasonable assumption?

 

In PvE, you want to only surround yourselves with good players so stuff gets done better. Especially considering how bad many people are.  Even in Open World they scale the boss up. Feeling good about yourself for having top dps does nothing if you fail. No loot. This is why raiders  filter out bads. Regardless, it's highly likely a person that plays wvw will have some sembalance of how builds and buttons work and will still probably do better than a rando pve pug regardless of content.

 

In WvW, enemy players being bad only makes it easier for you. On your side, it kinda sucks, but they can still do tasks like building siege or scouting and ultimately speaking any player can be of use. For example, one of our server mates spends most of their time either dead or afk, but it's useful information to know where enemy players are. 😉

Edited August 8, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[subversiontwo.7501]

This tale as is as old as the game and these threads pop up every other week, regardless of what colors one drapes themselves in. The answer is also very simple: To make a legendary weapon you spend 90% or more of your time in PvE and 10% or less of your time in WvW.

 

In that there is a valid and interesting discussion on the design of encouraging MMO players to play multiple modes, making players feel forced to play multiple modes or the downsides of not having players play multiple modes.

 

There is also a highly self-centered, completely detached from any sense of fairness or greater good, and invalid discussion of wanting your own stuff or wanting others out and not caring about anyone else.

 

Spoiler

Finding out what is what can also be done with a relatively simple thought experiment: The GoB shouldn't require WvW? A full legendary alternative can be given to WvW? Fine! Who gets it first and who gets to wait a couple of years? I mean, I'd be all fine with getting a large overhaul of the WvW reward systems and then a bit later they can take the GoB out. Is anyone making these threads fine with that? or are they just selfish, completely oblivious to whoever always gets the short stick and just give token remarks to- or about other players while actually not caring? I'd assume the latter of the latter to often be the case when someone suggests that WvW could get something else. They generally do not care about the good discussion and they could not fathom getting the crumbs.

 

It is usually people here pandering for sympathy, out of its context, and they deserve none.

If people want to talk the good talk then I am all ears.

 

As for the angle of this thread: I think @ArchonWing.9480 was right in the first reply already back on page one. Bad players in your group are not likely to be GoB/claw tourists. That pretty much invalidates the premise of the thread.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I came for specific rewards - mastery track for a gift. To optimize the process of getting that gift, I need to maintain tier 6 participation. And the single most effective way to do this is to plant my face into some ongoing moshpit and press 1 on downed people. That's it.

Go to EBG.

If your server doesn't own SMC, build a treb in one of the forward towers and start trebbing SMC.

If your server owns SMC, build a treb up on the third floor and start trebbing one of the forward towers.

Set a macro to continuously treb and go AFK.
 

The single most effective way of keeping up Tier 6 participation...

Edited August 8, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[alcopaul.2156]

... and since most of the time your server zerg is killing PvE Bosses aka the Champion/Legendary Lords to Cap Towers/Keeps/SmC, might as well disengage and go full PvE by killing Veterans in that tower or in all of unattended towers for the additional WxP and pip upkeep..

 

you can go roam around the 1/7th of a full borderland and get 6 pips in no time by proper rotation (as for Plat rank.. just scale the time if you're on Bronze or coming to Bronze rank).

Edited August 8, 2021 by alcopaul.2156

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

the thing is, the players who want to avoid all fights still would do better to just group up into a blob and karmatrain the dead maps, which are mostly RBL and sometimes additionally one of the alpines.

 

so you absolutely don't need a safe space for them, as pretty much all dangerous servers won't defend red border stuff against 70 people for too long. some people may think they should be able to get their reward tracks for free while afking, like at world bosses or the eye of the north public dragonstorm thingy... which is plainly unrealistc, as this - like mentioned before - is a player versus player format on a larger scale, idk what to add.

 

the NPCs are really not strong. only stonemist lord and red border lords put up any fight, if u do not have the attack/defense boosts against NPCs

 

so, this issue with "players just run like chicken at engage" is the issue that the PPT focus of far too many players these days brings with it. most good guilds have disbanded or pause and wait for EoD (the upcoming DLC)... so yeah. the environment is very casual at the moment. best u can do is to learn to follow only specific tags, as the fighting tags make sure that they kick people who don't do their job. people who flee in masses at enemy sight till narnia clearly don't do their job.

 

i know the issue, and it's pretty tragic. EU has only few servers where u don't have these type of people in a bigger number.

 

however, any special map doesn't solve this very issue.

rather, Wvw would require bigger focus on rewards for player kills. numbers of zergs or even blobs alone are never a suitable argumentation for "fairness" ... the good players kinda will always stack, as it is very painful to play with a too big amount of people who refuse to join voiced. the strong guilds of the past have been also getting better by time.

 

nobody was just good initially. the coms of the guilds teach new members or interested ones usually during raids, or check their potential first in some test-weeks. which leads to 15ish groups deleting groups of 40+ inside structures. fast bomb, heals stealth and stability provided, correct pathing and disengage and done. on the other hand, fighting the same enemy group with 10-15 coudy randoms around u additionally, it could have wiped the 15ish group, as the randoms provide nothing and plan mostly on "tagging as many enemies as possible" on their random sets/builds.

 

anet gotta motivate people to learn Wvw again. idk why this worked so much better in the past or why it seems to be so very hard for new players these days.

[Bristingr.5034]

Has anyone told him EOTM exists?

[TheQuickFox.3826]

6 minutes ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

Has anyone told him EOTM exists?

 

You don't get pips there and many objectives there are more difficult to capture than in the WvW normal maps. Not to mention the horrible navigation there.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

outside of the no-pip issue (which makes it kinda less loot also), it is simply very empty, [whenever no gvgs or bvbs etc are happening on the map/s...] so not sure if lonely pvE on eotm is really a valid option. u get not much more disrupted on undefended regular borders.

[ASP.8093]

On 8/7/2021 at 2:49 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

It's incredibly frustrating to think you have an equal number of allies alongside you, but the moment the enemy engages, they either scatter to the winds or focus on capping the camp/capping the sentry while the fight occurs just mere feet away.

Some of the people who do this are "Mithril Legends" and stuff, so I think it's fair to say it's not just exclusive-PVE-players desperately trying to get their first legendary.

 

Heck, I have seen entire guild groups, 10 or 15 strong, just run away from every single engagement for two hours on reset night.

[GutterRat.1269]

You could use the desert map for this. Would be great to get it out of the normal rotation.

[T G.7496]

No, bad idea, for all the aforementioned reasons.

There are quite a few people who came to WvW and stayed, because they also came to enjoy it.

And all the rest? Those that hate it, and can't wait for it to end?

Their pain is sweet.

Let them suffer for their rewards.

Want the thing? Do the thing.

[vilkanor.3072]

I see the entire matter from the opposite perspective: this game is forcing me to do PvE when I am solely interested in WvW/PvP.

Besides, there should be some kind of mechanism to prevent newbies or ill intent individuals from ruining the hard work done by those who play WvW on constant basis (common example: random enemy spy pulling SM tactics)

[ClaraFee.2579]

Sorry @Ronin.4501 , but I think this is a /facepalm idea, homie.

 

The whole point of having diverse requirements for legendary gear, mounts, etc. is to expose players to other game modes and bring people together.  We don't need a whole new map just for players who come to WvW for these  things - we just need hardcore WvW'ers to be a little more tolerant of the transient PVE'ers.

 

Instead of seeing then as a nuisance, maybe try teaching them the ropes and providing some guidance so they can become more self-sufficient.  You might even make some friends or find some untapped talent to add to your guild roster.

[Bristingr.5034]

11 hours ago, msalakka.4653 said:

You could use the desert map for this. Would be great to get it out of the normal rotation.

Why? Several servers love that map. Just because you don't...

[Excursion.9752]

I would bet if a map like this ever comes to be you would find it would do more harm than good. I know a few people right now that would go there just to kill the PvE players just to be annoying.

[Ronin.4501]

4 hours ago, ClaraFee.2579 said:

Sorry @Ronin.4501 , but I think this is a /facepalm idea, homie.

 

The whole point of having diverse requirements for legendary gear, mounts, etc. is to expose players to other game modes and bring people together.  We don't need a whole new map just for players who come to WvW for these  things - we just need hardcore WvW'ers to be a little more tolerant of the transient PVE'ers.

 

Instead of seeing then as a nuisance, maybe try teaching them the ropes and providing some guidance so they can become more self-sufficient.  You might even make some friends or find some untapped talent to add to your guild roster.

OK I keep seeing this type of comment, or similar comments (and I'm not faulting you for suggesting it) as though I haven't done all that.  I'll talk in /Map, /Team, /Say chat...no response.

 

Again, I'm not talking about the players who WANT to learn and WANT to get better at WvW.  I'm talking about the players who want nothing to do with the WvW-gamemode but have to partake because Anet is forcing them to if they want certain gear/items.

 

Maybe a new map wasn't the best idea, but Anet forcing players who hate the game-mode to participate doesn't just feel like it's punishing the PvE players but the WvW players as well.  I'd much rather play alongside the players who WANT to be in WvW, whether they're good or bad.

 

And again, so long as we have map population caps and queues, I'd rather the maps be filled up with the players who WANT to be out there rather than filled up with players who don't want to be there.  It's already bad enough when the map is queued and you have 10% of the map afk in spawn.  (and I should point out I rarely go to EBG, so that's not the map queue I'm referring to).