Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Kencu.5846]

I like the overall idea but rn the virtuoso feels underwhelming, slow and clunky. F1-F4 feels lazy with only F4 being actually reworked.

F4 animation is great but too predictable. Dagger barely deals damage, dagger3 is very slow. It's not a "virtuoso", it's more like someone who is learning the instrument lol. 

In PvP it's incredibly squashy. The aegis and the 3secs invul just not enough (even with Inspiration). Shatters should be used without facing the target, just like normal mesmer shatters. 
 

In WvW it's useless because of projectiles. Rain of Swords deals decent damage assuming that the enemies stay in one spot for 5 seconds which is unrealistic in WvW. Elite the same issue, enemies move around. And overall, a core guard or a Herald can deal the same (or more) damage while also providing the squad buffs, stab, heal etc.

If it wants to be viable in WvW it must provide value to the squad. My suggestions:

Blade Renewal to affect 5 allies.
Shatters to be cast without LoS.
F4 to give Stability, Protection
Dagger 3 to inflict chill or cripple and make it faster
Rain of Swords: 3 pulses, more damage on each pulse

I'd even suggest to be have a defensive F1-F4 line with the ability to swap between them. Make Blade Renewal something like an engi weapon kit skill and on the defensive F1-F4:

F1: Give superspeed and barrier per blade 
F2: Heal 5 allies and cleanse 1 condition for each blade shattered. Heal 5 allies for each condition cleansed.

F3: Give boons to 5 allies based on the number of blades. Stability, Aegis, Protection, Resistance, Alacrity

F4: 0,5secs Invulnaribility for 5 allies per blade (cooldown maybe 120? Or more)

With this, Illusionary Inspiration would work well if it heals on every blade generation. And the Virtuoso would be able to be actually useful in a WvW squad. 

[FranzM.1298]

I personally think the specialization is in a good place but could use some tuning up. The dagger 3 and F1 could use some tuning up and cooldown reduction (especially on F1).

 

F1 damage is really low. Dagger 3 is very slow on the pulses.

 

Yes, I did play PVP.

Edited August 19, 2021 by FranzM.1298

[mortrialus.3062]

3 hours ago, Roda.7468 said:

I'm more in favor of "Psion" 'cause that would make talking about the spec and/or aurene very funny.

Phantom Blade

[cloudsareyum.8120]

- I'd like to be able to somehow do alacrity on virtuoso.  I rejoiced hard when mirage got some alacrity coz then i wasn't shoehorned with one elite class playstyle (mirage fits mine better than chrono) virtuoso is really fun to play, but I don't want to feel -forced- into classes i'm not in the mood to play... please allow us some way to buff/ help people somehow

 

with the might giving mantra removed from mantra mesmer, and the update to inspiration such taht you can't directly give boons, i accept that it's impossible to give buffs on regular mesmer... but with an elite spec I hope there's a way to help others / some mild build flexibility (unless i haven't found it yet)

 

(is the only way to gain might via the greatsword?  Because it would kind of be rough to be locked into that weapon for might)  I'm not certain yet if the damage output will compensate for having no access to decent might, (testing against a single enemy wound up in a fanc but I'll see

 

Other than that, the playstyle is super fun!!!!!  I haven't done anything requiring balancing stuff yet, will add with more, but i'm really enjoying it.

 

it really fits with the magical girl style haha, everything is super pretty

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by cloudsareyum.8120

[Hackuuna.4085]

WvW Perspective: Easily the weakest mesmer specialization, and it's not even close.

1. Reflect heavy fights completely nullify anything you could ever bring to the table. 
2. F1-F3 going on 5s cooldown when an opponent isn't facing you is really bad. If you insist on not letting us cast them while facing away at least don't punish us for pressing it.
3. Cast times on F1-F4 take a lot of getting used to. Personally, I don't see why a cast time was added to them, since their power isn't even stronger than 3 clone effects. Very underwhelming.
4. F4 block is only 1.5s but the tooltip says 4 seconds when traited. Only the spinning miniscule damage lasts longer.
5. I'd honestly trade being able to keep blades out of combat if the payout of stronger F skills was given.
6. Mesmer survivability without instant cast defenses is really low. F2 traited to blind is too slow to be a reactionary defense, F3 has too long of a windup to be a reactionary defense and neither of them can be used while CC'd. 
7. Dagger skills lack utility and damage, which means they will not be used.
8. Sword leap is nice. Also love that you tried to build some synergy in with other blades like greatsword and sword.
9. With graphics on low/standard I do not see F1/F2/F3 animations from enemies. I was dueling another mesmer and the lack of animation meant I was constantly getting hit by something I couldn't even see.
10. Blades shooting out on dodge/phantasm breaks our stealth. Basically if you plan on bringing stealth you can't pick those traits. The traits themselves don't really offer any interesting change in play like other specializations traits do.

Like all mesmer specs, it can be decent in duels but it's actually easier to fight than other mesmer specs due to the animations giving time for people to dodge (assuming they render) or reflect and the easily predictable plays. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Hackuuna.4085

[mondmadlin.5120]

Virtuoso feels the most complete to me of the 3 new specializations, however I do feel like some of the character animations could use a bit more... moving with the skills? I feel this mostly with the elite skill, the character body does a very short cast, while the skill effect lasts a while longer, I would love it more if while the elite skill is still damaging, shooting daggers, the player character could hold it's arms forward, as if still channeling, otherwise the skill and the character just feel oddly disconnected.

[cloudsareyum.8120]

I don't feel the daggers are slow.   I enjoy playing this class in PvP.  the only thing is i'd like it to be versatile enough so that i can buff people without making the class op, but it's great fun.  i'm playing silver 3-2 games, for reference.  The animations are good.  I feel like it's balanced. I do well, and I also get killed if I mess up, make mistakes, do something stupid, etc. 

i'm not good at dueling with it yet, but I can see potential.  I also feel it feels comfortable in the desert fighting monsters with this.

 

I actually really love all the animations.  It feels very magical 😄

Edited August 18, 2021 by cloudsareyum.8120

[Amarok.2147]

Hey everyone! I really enjoyed playing virtuoso today, typically I only play Mesmer while in WvW Commanding on a Chrono, otherwise I'm on my Herald. 

 

Visuals: 9/10

The visuals was beautiful, from the daggers floating being summoned and floating above your character giving a menacing look to the way they fly and have all these different attacks flow into one another. Daniel hit the nail right on the head with saying the Sword of Decimation and Rain of Swords should have a different visual appearance. One summons the giant circle above and a couple swords fly from an angle and then the other summons a giant circle and it begins to rain swords.

 

Usefulness in PvP/WvW: 8/10

Overall satisfied with my experience today, lots of hard burst damage and cc's all around. There is a strong field presence when the Virtuoso is around, assuming you don't get focused early on. So far we were able to start with the dagger/pistol and a greatsword and I didn't really care too much for the GS in this build. I swapped out to a scepter/focus like my regular build and then the fun happens! Setting up teammates with a focus pull and comboing your swords of decimation and rain of swords was brutal. This was almost like giving your teammates and easy kill assist. I do suggest setting curtain, casting rain of sword and immediately pulling curtain so as soon as the pull happens, the swords should be landing and causing an instant immob. If you're certain they'll be pulled, it wouldn't hurt to also throw in the sword of decimation to get some vulnerability in there. Then switch over to your dagger/pistol and go to work with your bloodsongs. 

 

I would highly suggest increasing the overall AoE attack radius for both your Swords of Decimation and Rain of Swords as it feels a lot of times the enemy would simply walk away because of the cast delay. This is why I suggest almost precasting to catch up to the actual effect. The other thing I had an issue with and felt almost useless unless in a choke point was the Thousand Cuts attack. It is extremely easy to sidestep and many times I would spam my button to cast and it wouldn't place it. The 3 suggestions I have is easier A) a faster cast time on the attack, B) add a stun to it so it allows you to actually land the shot better if it connects or C) allow it to be used on a target and have the attack auto focus on a target (even if it means a slight damage reduction). At this point it's not something I would use outside of a choke point or if an enemy is down and i can drop it to keep hitting them while I move off target.

 

Usefulness in PvE: No Opinion Yet

I haven't given this a shot yet in something like fractals, strikes, or raids. I've tried on a world boss and it felt strange, no fault to anyone as that was the first enemy encounter I had and didn't know much about the class yet. It seems this class offers a lot of constant damage and would fit perfectly as a power dps class, at the moment there is no true condi variation. Who knows if that'll change at some point as there is main hand dagger that could cause some poison, bleeding, and torment, maybe burning if we get a bit creative. Without having clones, it means monsters will focus on you, which could be an issue. Yes you a decent amount of hp in the pool, but not much armor to go with it. Moral of the story, hit them harder than they hit you! 

 

Final Verdict: 9/10

 

Super fun class to play, seems pretty easy to get a start in, obviously will take some time to master. However, it doesn't feel too intimidating to get into and this will give Mesmers a new and fresh feel. With some slight refining, I can definitely see this class having a spot in the WvW roaming community, zerg backline DPS, and serving a as power DPS in PvE content. I'm super excited to see how this class will be further developed as well as the other classes. Tomorrow I'll be testing the Harbinger and Thur I'll be on the Willbender! Keep up the great work.

 

I posted a first impression video on YT if anyone is interested under JoseCalil. https://youtu.be/EWbD2D2-Bbc

[cloudsareyum.8120]

It feels good fighting in the desert (balanced, decent survivability.) and it feels balanced in pvp for me (in silver 2-3)  (the preset build is better for group fights than dueling, i'll have to tune for dueling or get used to dueling like this.)  I like all the animations, the gameplay feels fun and it all looks cool.   I am able to move around and dodge the scary red circles, i feel a lot more mobile to be honest.  

 

Update:  Survivability and dueling is really hard with the charge time between f1-f4 cast. That said, it's a lot less punishing than chrono's f4 .. and timing chrono's shatters is too big brain for me anyway, so im sure the people who still enjoy chrono have no issues.  if there is an update to this, at least  if f4 worked like f4 of mirage and base mesmer and old chrono that would be nice. 

 

i honestly really really like it, i just wish that I could buff my team, but maybe if there were any updates to that, base mesmer would have that capability too

 

I'm running a magical girl mesmer, so a lot of it feels especially awesome, but I could imagine my other mesmer characters really enjoying it.  like it a lot 😄

 

(i was definitely also expecting dual daggers too, lol, but I'm pretty happy with this.)

 

It feels very mesmer to me and also probably a little in line with cantha based on what I know of it? (i main mesmer , basically my first character and favor clones/mirage style over the other style.)    Surprisingly, even without fake bodies, it really works for me.  My bias is that although I do like chrono too, the gameplay felt a bit less mesmer-like to me.  I like the fact that I can move around and stuff, and the immobilizing plus throwing blades really works, the bladestorm theme is pretty cool!   I only tested in PvE and PvP @ silver 2-3 though.    Love it. Magic illusion blades are awesome!

Edited August 18, 2021 by cloudsareyum.8120

[Amarok.2147]

Yeah it feels like a very selfish class, but then again it's not really a support class at least not in this stage. The best for of support would be constant pressure to keep them off your teammates or at least second guess engaging someone when you're coming to join the party 😄

[Salt Mode.3780]

Low ranking PvP or people who are new to the game perhaps its viable but in high lvl pvp or competitive gameplay this spec wont fly and will never get picked in higher lvls.

 

Projectiles are clunky, easily LoSed, casting is slow, no combo whatsoever because everything is cast, no mobility or survivability. This wouldn't be as bad if you didn't need to face your target to cast. Shatters will disappear if the person stealths resulting in losing your blades and dmg. Heal is horrid because you have to face your target to heal, and elite is absolute garbage.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[cloudsareyum.8120]

2 minutes ago, Amarok.2147 said:

Yeah it feels like a very selfish class, but then again it's not really a support class at least not in this stage. The best for of support would be constant pressure to keep them off your teammates or at least second guess engaging someone when you're coming to join the party 😄

I do hope that some update so that we can support with it can be made tho!  I really love the look and feel, and one of the strengths of gw is that you can do mostly what you want to do based on the feeling of playing the class you like.  (i mean there are some limits, but usually it feels like there is some versatility, casually.)  The fun feeling of playing it and the kit is very fun, so if I pick it up as a main it is always hard when one can't buff others at all.  (and usually i expect elite specs to be able to buff others -somehow-, I have lower standards for the base classes altho i appreciat them being versatile too.)  I'm pretty sure that would have something to do with the base mesmer traitline though.   If it's not possible without messing up the game balance tho that's okay too.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, cloudsareyum.8120 said:

I do hope that some update so that we can support with it can be made tho!  I really love the look and feel, and one of the strengths of gw is that you can do mostly what you want to do based on the feeling of playing the class you like.  (i mean there are some limits, but usually it feels like there is some versatility, casually.)  The fun feeling of playing it and the kit is very fun, so if I pick it up as a main it is always hard when one can't buff others at all.  (and usually i expect elite specs to be able to buff others -somehow-, I have lower standards for the base classes altho i appreciat them being versatile too.)  I'm pretty sure that would have something to do with the base mesmer traitline though.   If it's not possible without messing up the game balance tho that's okay too.

If you want to buff others there is Chronomancer and Mirage. Not all 3 specs require a support aspect to it. 

[cloudsareyum.8120]

4 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

If you want to buff others there is Chronomancer and Mirage. Not all 3 specs require a support aspect to it. 

i know, but i just left chrono jail just to be back in a 'we're going to shoehorn you into these other classes if you want to help people' situation

 

Which ranking would you consider higher level? gold +? plat+? 

[cloudsareyum.8120]

Speaking of...  for the pvp-specific feedback, maybe we could, talk about what ranks or general ranks? our experience was in, or how we tested it (maybe it was an normal game, generally play at rank X, normal game, don't play at all, maybe some plat+ people dueled with other plat + people, or gold 3 with gold 3, etc, or people just dueling in the pvp room, pure combat in wvw)?  I mean I think i've been skimming and so far only I and salt mode have mentioned ranks or context at all in regards to specific PvP focused feedback, I'm sure that it's different in different levels /experiences as salt mode mentioned and it's hard to tell what any of this PvP feedback means with the context. ...unless like, idk, maybe you guys can pull up our pvp ranks and get an idea that way so we don't have to say XD

Edited August 18, 2021 by cloudsareyum.8120

[Amarok.2147]

I'm hot garbage that never plays ranked 😂 I'm like rank 30 or 31. I live in WvW sorry 🙂🙃🙂 so combat against players isn't new, but combat where there is points to capture and fight around is definitely still uncharted territory.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Also i would like to add aside from sPvP roaming is not an option in WvW as well, the occasional zerging perhaps but you have better options in terms of raw DPS. Fact that there are guardian shield 5 that can nullify projectiles as well as support scrappers, tempest with their swirling winds you arent going to land anything.  

There is a reason why ground targeting classes are preferred in zerging like scourge or revs. They are ranged non projectile attacks that wont get nullified. Anyone who says otherwise is fluffing this e-spec and is doing this e-spec no favor, but I guess there is a thing called the Trojan Horse.

 

Oh I didnt even bother picking up the e-specs utilities and elite cuz Blink, Signet of Midnight, and Mass Invis is better for roaming at any situation and at any given time.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Mik.3401]

I already commented and I think almost all of us agree the spec is too slow, squishy and relies on attacks which miss most of the time. It’s a good spec to cleave downstate bodies but not much else.

 

I have one additional thought - this could be very much a warrior or thief spec. Where is the deception element that is core to Mesmers identity? How is it that Mesmer spec has no cc apart from a few extremely slow options? Mesmer is about quickly shutting down actions of the opponent.

 

if you want to fix this spec - make it more Mesmer. Add confusion/taunt/daze condition here and there, make cc’s instant, make blades shoot also to target behind the Mesmer, record voice acting for bladeSONGS (you waste time on re-recording voice acting for old Guardian skills so you surely have time for that).

 

Just yeah do something to make this spec feel like it is coming from somewhere and has synergy with what Mesmer is. Adding high damage numbers to these clunky slow projectiles skills will fix nothing - what is needed is flavour and purpose.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Mik.3401

[The Brainman.6217]

Since the expansion is still months away, it does not really make sense to comment on balance. I am sure number tuning is going to happen.

 

The design is, in my opinion, the best among the three presented elite specs by a fairly large margin. It does preserve the identity of a mesmer, while getting rid of annoying and (pvp wise) toxic mechanics. I really like that blades are kept out of combat, but cannot be further stacked. The cast time and clear animation is also very good for the game. As others have pointed out though, it should have some flexibility when casting regarding facing of the character (and target) as well as moving while casting.

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 minutes ago, The Brainman.6217 said:

Since the expansion is still months away, it does not really make sense to comment on balance. I am sure number tuning is going to happen.

 

The design is, in my opinion, the best among the three presented elite specs by a fairly large margin. It does preserve the identity of a mesmer, while getting rid of annoying and (pvp wise) toxic mechanics. I really like that blades are kept out of combat, but cannot be further stacked. The cast time and clear animation is also very good for the game. As others have pointed out though, it should have some flexibility when casting regarding facing of the character (and target) as well as moving while casting.

R we playing the same game here where there r no classes that can stealth, insta hit, blink port to you without any tell....? I mean I would be for cast time clear animation if that were the case for ALL classes but there is no place for having cast time and clear animation in a fast action combat style game.

[mortrialus.3062]

21 minutes ago, The Brainman.6217 said:

Since the expansion is still months away, it does not really make sense to comment on balance. I am sure number tuning is going to happen.

 

The design is, in my opinion, the best among the three presented elite specs by a fairly large margin. It does preserve the identity of a mesmer, while getting rid of annoying and (pvp wise) toxic mechanics. I really like that blades are kept out of combat, but cannot be further stacked. The cast time and clear animation is also very good for the game. As others have pointed out though, it should have some flexibility when casting regarding facing of the character (and target) as well as moving while casting.

Numbers going up goes 100% against CMC'S philosophy in PvP.  It's not happening.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

nice spec, skills and mechanics can be worked around but as pointed out before beta, a number of the traits (particularly the damage-focused ones) come off as fairly shallow or uninteresting. this will mainly be from a pve pov

 

• the damage modifier on mental focus alone (an adept tier trait) makes the entire illusions line blush, or maybe its illusions that needs buffing; on the other hand, id be playing virtuoso specifically to not need to fight within close range - the range threshold is poorly justified here
• in relation to mental focus, i realize jagged mind is more of a deceptive option that only really exists to synergize (extremely well) with the blade generation from bloodsong. this is admittedly pretty interesting in hindsight (to be swimming in blades), but because spamming bladesongs cannot make up the bulk of the spec atm, most just opt for mental focus as there are other ways to stock up 'just enough' blades. the bleed duration is currently too short to justify any other use. condi virt is useable, maybe not as strong/broken as power. its setup and rotation is just a bit unintuitive
• phantasmal blades is an odd trait that essentially mimics phantasmal force/chronophantsma in an offensive sense, and appears on a spec id thought was trying to detach itself from its brainless ai. phantasms can stay, but i feel that virtuoso shouldnt have any real focus on them, similar to mirage. edit: this trait is currently providing near the same dmg increase as chronophantasma, which doesnt seem right imo
• because jagged mind isnt enough to push virtuoso into any serious condi build, sharpening sorrow is left as a lackluster trait. depending on whether or not a condi build should exist, maybe this trait could instead make it so that even a power build actively wants to use bladesong sorrow. nevertheless, the fury output is rather poor and would seem more suitable proccing on any bladesong activation. edit: id still like a trait that does a bit more
• more stuff to say but id rather not

 

generally speaking, id expect more a few more traits to interact specifically with what virtuoso introduces - traits that build upon what core already brings are wasted opportunities, when they could have expanded upon many more other things only a virtuoso could possibly do

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Noodle Ant.1605
did some more testing

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Played the spec for prob about 4 hours today. Played as zerk/scholar with a few mara pieces.  Ended up happiest with Dueling/Illusions GS Sw/P or F. The damage felt quite bad. The power coefficients seem way undertuned. Getting Trueshotted for over half my hp while I am tickling the enemy with a 5-blade F1. Regardless, I had a blast and will be playing a lot more Mesmer now.

 

Dagger design is odd. It is a 1200 range weapon but it doesn't feel like it. Why does skill 2 fan out so quickly? Why is skill 3 so slow-moving? I quickly trashed the dagger after learning of sword 3 leap and it felt much better. The mobility from that skill is a godsend, and being able to port back mid-cast is a really nice perk.

 

Utility skills seem pretty bad. The elite skill is the biggest disappointment IMO. Found the most usefulness out of the immob one in larger fights since it has such a long range. Crit a downed enemy for just 3.6k and decided it wasn't really worth it anymore if that's the bonus damage I could get.

 

 

 

 

Some quick suggestions before I go to bed:

 

-Increase the damage on F1. Reduce the cast time to 0.5s. The way the damage is channeled made it feel a bit clunky and umm...slow? Felt hard to set up damage without pistol 5 stun.

 

-Change F2 to inflict an enemy targeted 240-radius AoE damage skill that inflicts confusion. Increase its strike damage. Maybe could have the 0.75s cast time instead considering it would no longer function as a projectile.

 

-F3 should be unblockable at the very least. Feels very weak.

 

-Remove the damage portion of the F4. Instead have it clear 1 condi per blade shattered. Virt has no condi cleanse within the traitline. The damage is not only insignificant, but also has a horrible anti-synergy with stealth. Being revealed when using your defensive skill doesn't feel good.

 

-Give the elite skill the 100% increased damage against downed players. Make it a non-projectile and maybe increase its radius? Feels really clunky to use. Skill went on full CD multiple times when trying to use it, and I would also get the cast cancelled on numerous occasions.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Westenev.5289]

I only played a bit of virtuoso, but I'll try to share my unexperienced opinions.

 

My main questions going into this was:

 

A) Is there any build verity? In that regard, I think the elite spec is a complete flop - there was only one trait on each line that really made sense to take (222, "Mental Focus", "Phantasmal Blades", "Infinite Force"). The bottom traits seem to encourage a condi bleed focused build, while the top traits seem to focus on defense... but I think the traits are funneled too hard into one style of play rather than situational/conditional advantages.

 

B) Was the elite spec fun to play? HELL YEAH IT WAS. I loved throwing around daggers all over the place, and the lack of clones made mesmer feel so smooth. The animations made skills feel powerful and satisfying to use (the shatter skills felt amazing xD). Was pleasantly surprised that we could keep daggers out of combat.

 

C) What happened to clone skills, specifically sword 3, and down state 2? Honestly, I love the leap/teleport on sword 3, but I'm not so hot on what happened to mesmer downed state. I kind of feel like virtuoso needs that downed state clone, or some way to use blades in downed state?

Edited August 18, 2021 by Westenev.5289

[Dantert.1803]

I would love a dual dagger option for the Virtuoso.
I love the visuals and I hope they will not be culled back for any reason, they are awesome.
The elite spec feels so satisfying that it made me think to pick back my Mesmer.