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Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]


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Hi!!! I think it would be great to include a different animation for the dagger autoatack, as it feels non powerfull (I mean the hand movement, not the animation of the shoot, as I like a lot the mechanic of the autoatack and the effects) so yup, a slightly different animation for the hand movement would be awesome!

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Finally able to collect my thoughts, here’s my impression so far on my testing.   To start, I’m going to say that this was a missed opportunity to give the Virtuoso Dual Daggers. If this hap

My feedback F1 is worse than core, less damage, easily strafeable, the fact that it hits 5 projectiles in a row makes you miss several of them.  F2 is one of the few good skills on Virt, I w

This is like a core Mesmer except worse. It has no mobility, swiftness, nothing. It has no teleports, no reflects, its only defensive abilities are channels, its attacks are slow, do little damage and

Played with it for around 45 minutes and loved it. I liked the animations and the play style. I think it could benefit a bit from cutting some animation duration/after cast. The elite should have a lower CD. It can easily miss, even if you aim it right. I much rather it have a lower damage and 45 sec CD.

 

Overall great! Kudos for the design team 😃

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5 minutes ago, rhrrngt.9271 said:

I don't understand the hate for Jagged Mind, it combined with the blades keep stacks on stacks on bleeding since the auto attack is a blade attack and without it you lose a TON of condi damage 

Anything that literally multi hits helps a lot def to keep those stacks. With pistol i was able to get 30 stacks of burn when switching 30 stacks of confuse as well and 20 or 25 stacks of bleed. I don't know what kinda damage i'm doing and i prob coulda done better. I was testing this on with power precision ferocity gear.

 

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1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

for pvp.
elite is impossible to land, and the damage is low anyways.
shatters have kitten for damage, dagger 3 and 2 are a joke, 3 never does anything. 2 does almost nothing unless in melee rage, then hits for ~2k.
no real synergy with anything, LOADS of traits dont work simply due to " no illusions "
tried using heal on illu summon signet/insp trait, 0 healing for it.
healing skill is really easy to cancel if you just move too much, which is annoying.

suggestions.
1 give IP to the spec
2 do something about dagger 3, maybe let us choose where the thing will stop and it will spin in place?
3 give synergy between blades and illusions, its you deem it too strong, make it at least work with half the effect, better then having loads of useless traits.

 

I was using i think it was number 3 shatter on condi seemed only useful if you were condi i tended to just use 1  and dagger skills for getting up those vuln stacks for big bursts.

 

The mobility did feel a bit lackluster. I dunno if itw as me but i was raiding and couldn't stay on my feet trying to land as many blows as possible. You are also correct the CD is pretty massive on the elite.

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If someone has a backpiece as well as the pve legendary trinkets equiped its hard to see the blade, could we maybe get an alternative where the blades are suspended behind your character in pararel to them as oposed to above and vertical to your character? Sorta like the blades are held by an invisible rope from the tip of their hilt.

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idk it feels weird to play. a mobility on an potential offhand dagger is missing. sure we get a new sword 3 mobility skill but still.

 

It feels just bad in terms of dps. super squishy and the cast time of f skills feels weird. blades should automatically refill out of combat so you are not that dependent on the utility skill that refills it.

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24 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

IF you don't notice that your able to burst easier with virtuoso

"easier" doesn't mean it changed, going from burst to burst is still going from burst>burst 

 

none of the utility skills are "bursts" at all, except maybe the pushback, which??? literally why does that skill exist 

dagger 2, maybe, but even then? greatsword?

 

that was the problem, again, it's nothing "new"  or "different"  

it "added" nothing to core mesmer aside from carrying over "clones" to new targets, which are now projectiles, which now struggle to compete against projectile hate rather than NPC mechanics, which are both excruciating in above average pvp, which;

 

24 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

when i'm in fractals, by the time i get enough illusions to get alacricity to shatter and get illusions, mobs are long dead.

it took them 10 years and 3 e-specs to finally only add in a fix to a freaking pve mobbing issue, which could have easily been alleviated by changing how clones/phantasms function in pve, or at the least chrono/mirage could have changed it, like e-specs should have been expected to do in the first place  

 

which is just so beyond irrelevant either way, considering this game's pve mobbing is just "push everything into a wall and aoe" to begin with 

 

pve raid mesmer already basically reigned supreme, which it would have been even more so, had they kept the old phantasms, which was also just questionable to begin with, so even if virtuoso is "better" there, it still doesn't shake anything up in the slightest except for a "mildly different way" to do the exact same thing they were already good at doing

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5 hours ago, Fire Attunement.9835 said:

What needs to be improved or adjusted?

remove the dumb pushback on that utility stunbreak, pushing is so worthless in every game mode that isn't spvp, and even there it sounds questionable at best, it's bad enough mirage utilities were so absolutely terrible and remain in that state to this day, please don't launch this one in its current state, i mean, holy butts, how does this get by internal testing of  "yea, this seems fine and definitely worth slotting in"

 

i'd like to have several conversations with whoever actually used this ability and greenlit it into the beta  

Edited by Alpha.1308
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4 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

"easier" doesn't mean it changed, going from burst to burst is still going from burst>burst 

 

none of the utility skills are "bursts" at all, except maybe the pushback, which??? literally why does that skill exist 

dagger 2, maybe, but even then? greatsword?

 

that was the problem, again, it's nothing "new"  or "different"  

it "added" nothing to core mesmer aside from carrying over "clones" to new targets, which are now projectiles, which now struggle to compete against projectile hate rather than NPC mechanics, which are both excruciating in above average pvp, which;

 

it took them 10 years and 3 e-specs to finally only add in a fix to a freaking pve mobbing issue, which could have easily been alleviated by changing how clones/phantasms function in pve, or at the least chrono/mirage could have changed it, like e-specs should have been expected to do in the first place  

 

which is just so beyond irrelevant either way, considering this game's pve mobbing is just "push everything into a wall and aoe" to begin with 

 

pve raid mesmer already basically reigned supreme, which it would have been even more so, had they kept the old phantasms, which was also just questionable to begin with, so even if virtuoso is "better" there, it still doesn't shake anything up in the slightest except for a "mildly different way" to do the exact same thing they were already good at doing

Il admit its kinda weird having such high cd on shatters for DPS.

 

I got a question are there any mechanics in raid or fractals for deflecting projectiles?

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9 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I got a question are there any mechanics in raid or fractals for deflecting projectiles?

not that i'm aware of or care about, i don't pve

that's the problem

this was a pve/spvp spec

on the class that already had MULTIPLE build variations for both, because pve is whatever for balance, but spvp is where mesmer was supposed to shine to begin with, being the "duelist" class, and they already were, and continued to get support to that concept with chrono/mirage 

 

however, in wvw, where fights of 10+ people are the goal, projectiles are worthless, as are NPC mechanics like ranger pets/necro minions/the entirety of the mesmers profession mechanic 

 

this freaking game is called GUILD wars, yet actual guilds fighting other guilds has been such an afterthought of a black sheep and it's pretty pathetic that this e-spec was even considered being designed after the trashy pick-up mechanics on mirage were actually thrown into the game, and now the tone-deaf suggestion that "wvw is a core pillar" one of them said on a freaking live stream

Edited by Alpha.1308
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3 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

not that i'm aware of or care about, i don't pve

that's the problem

this was a pve/spvp spec

on the class that already had MULTIPLE build variations for both, because pve is whatever for balance, but spvp is where mesmer was supposed to shine to begin with, being the "duelist" class, and they already were, and continued to get support to that concept with chrono/mirage 

 

however, in wvw, where fights of 10+ people are the goal, projectiles are worthless, as are NPC mechanics like ranger pets/necro minions/the entirety of the mesmers profession mechanic 

 

this freaking game is called GUILD wars, yet actual guilds fighting other guilds has been such an afterthought of a black sheep and it's pretty pathetic that this e-spec was even considered being designed after the trashy pick-up mechanics on mirage were actually thrown into the game, and now the tone-deaf suggestion that "wvw is a core pillar" one of them said on a freaking live stream

I think after testing this i could be wrong but mirage might still be better condi. Someone who has mirage will have to test to compare. it might also be better in SPVP due to being more mobile.

 

For a pve/pvp spec not sure if this will be viable not much mobility unless it was able to burst really hard and fast in SPVP. The aoes might work in WVW though maybe, if someone tests it.

Edited by Axl.8924
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10 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

The aoes might work in WVW though maybe, if someone tests it.

are you the... same person? 

we've been discussing this

that's what i'm saying

it's bad

it's like, really, really bad

 

TWO utility skills are strong in wvw

that's it

 

that is absolutely garbage and unacceptable 

 

the traitline itself is not good enough to pick up, let alone for only 2 strong utility skills

 

and you saying the pve/spvp isn't viable makes it worse, because that means it has no place anywhere, and again the whole thing just needs to be fixed

 

if they just remove the projectile trash, it's honestly fairly decent for wvw, and it really isn't bad for spvp i don't think 

 

not the dagger, i don't care about the dagger, that can be bad, it's just a weapon, other classes weapons are projectiles, too

i thought dagger 3 was going to have impact damage, and only the extra daggers were projectiles, but the ENTIRE thing reflects, which is also just hot garbage, but honestly acceptable at least, because it's a weapon skill

 

not the entire freaking profession's mechanic, after going 10 years with AI  

 

the elite is reflectable, as well, which is just..... ahaaahhahahhaahahahhaa

 

these "balance devs" base their "balance" on the target dummy golems, i freaking swear

 

 

 

Edited by Alpha.1308
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4 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I'm more than willing to admit possibility i was wrong 

i'm not doing this as a "gatcha" kind of thing, if i'm sass and rude it's because i'm angry, but not at you, just fyi 

 

i was actually sincere as to why you thought it was acceptable for another burst spec after the last 2 already basically were, because they were based on core mesmer which was already burst

 

i didn't mean for it to sound like i was belittling you if i did, i'm just honestly very annoyed at how these devs are treating this, and the slap in the face of "wvw is a core pillar" 

 

after the "Smiter's Boon" treatment to things in this game, and what was left in GW1, the real, original Smiter's Boon, the devs deserve to be belittled

it doesn't take much to fix this garbage, and they refuse to address it, so, it's fair game as far as i'm concerned 

Edited by Alpha.1308
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I like the abilities, but in pvp its really lacking. Either it needs bigger damage like DH, or it needs much better mobility and survivability (like trapper DH). Since mirage is already kind of the mobile power mes with sword ambush and jaunt, I hope virtuoso becomes a viable ranged nuking spec (like DH). Since shatters need you to face your target it makes kiting very difficult, it needs something to make up for that huge disadvantage. Also the channeled block on f4 feels really bad.

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Beating on a Golem.....running a few World Bosses

 

Illusions - 1-3-2

Domination - 3-2-2

Virtuoso - 3-3-3

 

It is very easy to overload on blades to the point I could have all Bladesongs on CD with F1 being an Ammo skill via Shatterstorm in Illusions.  Easy DPS and Blade generation from Dagger means plenty of room to play around with different Utilities.

 

This feels like a very easy to play eSpec with a basic mechanic of count to 5 then hit a Bladesong.  I do not find the mechanic gratifying myself but can see this being an easy win for some players.

 

Specifics:

Dagger 1 - Fine AA

Dagger 2 - This is....okay?  I can see this being frustrating in some circumstances more so then being an awesome skill or have a high payoff

Dagger 3 - This is fun and funny.  For tagging a lot of stuff, this is pretty great

 

Heal Util - Eh?  With enough blade generation I think Signet is better here, but I like how much they put into this Skill  and can see it being something sometimes.

Rain of Swords - This is the only Util I would consider using in PvE, the others are pretty boring with long CD.  Blade Renewal might be interesting with the Distortion but the Blade generation isn't really needed for builds I have thought of.

Elite Util - Eh?  This is fine, but like most Elites for Mesmer, is it better than Time Warp?  Probably not most of the time.

 

Traits:

I did focus on 3-3-3 but did play around with the other traits a little.  I would be interested to see an optimized Phantasms build for Virtuoso, I couldn't get one that made me happy.  The top row of traits, I can see the value in these but again didn't find a build that really used them well for the PvE content I was in.

 

Overall I give this spec a 6.5 out of 10.  It does what it does, it isn't really special or interesting to play, it doesn't feel game breaking or offering high risk high reward mechanics.  However I am sure many players will enjoy this as it is fairly direct to figure out and do well with.   Personally, I can't see myself moving from Chrono to Virtuoso, and anticipate finding a new main for EoD (assuming one of the other specs is engaging).

 

That said, I am hoping this opens up the door for some 'tightening' of Chrono eSpec and some clarity in the Core traitlines.  I know Mirage and Chrono just had a review, I am hoping that all professions get a similar review pass post EoD eSpecs being released.

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really like virtuoso! its so nice.

 

make sword skill blade skills.

 

remove confusion from f2 and put a bleed

 

rain of swords and sword of decimation could be a single skill.

 

we need a utility with a dash with 2 charges to make this perfect.

 

the animation are cool but a bit toooo slow.

 

dagger needs the twirl firebrands get on their healing tome skill 2..

actually id also love it on the knock back skill.

 

the knockback skill has too long of a cooldown

 

change the targeting on the elite skill it is too hard to use.

 

if you are going to keep the phantasms add a little flavor to them so they fit in with the spec.

 

namaste!

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Alpha.1308 said:

i'm not doing this as a "gatcha" kind of thing, if i'm sass and rude it's because i'm angry, but not at you, just fyi 

 

i was actually sincere as to why you thought it was acceptable for another burst spec after the last 2 already basically were, because they were based on core mesmer which was already burst

 

i didn't mean for it to sound like i was belittling you if i did, i'm just honestly very annoyed at how these devs are treating this, and the slap in the face of "wvw is a core pillar" 

 

Thats ok i might have been a bit blinded because the word virtuoso when i saw the trailer got me very excited, like more excited than i should.

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I like Virtuoso overall so far.

 

For a little context, I've been playing Chronomancer in a very specific (and from what I understand, nonstandard) way for a few years now. I use Scepter, skills like Signet of Illusions (even with its bugs), and traits like Shatter Storm, to utterly spam Clones and Shatters.

 

For me, Virtuoso is great because it's essentially an Elite Specialization built for the way I had been playing Mesmer: no deception, just churning out ammo and launching it at my enemies. I am excited to switch to it for real once the expansion comes out.

 

Here are some more specific notes:
1) I really like that Blades are retained when targets die and even outside of combat, but it does make it feel a little strange that most Blade generation doesn't work outside of combat. It really makes it feel like Blades should just passively stock up (at least to 3) naturally outside of combat. This would also make Infinite Forge feel less mandatory.

2) Overall the traits feel sort of bland and tangential to the Spec. Mental Focus feels odd when Dagger is ranged, and the beta character also started with a Greatsword, which prefers enemies further away. The Bleed traits feel odd when Bleed is almost exclusively a Pistol thing, and one of the Bleed traits affects Illusions (and other people are saying Illusion traits don't affect Blades?). I like being given the option to do something a little different, but I feel like I'm missing the option to stay well in line with the Virtuoso.

2b) Overall I'm not really excited by my trait options from any trait line for the Spec, but this was a problem I had before when trying to build my Clone and Shatter spam Chronomancer.

3) Between having to aim the Elite skill, it having a cast time, and it only lasting 3 seconds, it just feels unresponsive. I also don't like the lines at the end of the targeting graphic. I assume the direction arrow is supposed to double for implying the ability's range is further than the graphic, but the lines at the end of the graphic keep making my brain interpret that as the edge of the ability.

3) I expected to have more to say, but while confirming certain things while writing this post a lot of my concerns were alleviated. That isn't to say things are perfect and I'll certainly notice more things once I've been playing the Spec for real for an extended period, but as someone who isn't a numbers person I don't have much else to say.

 

P.S.) Just a little nitpick in the grand scheme of things, but the flavor of the Spec just feels weird. I don't know why it's called Virtuoso and I don't know why the shatters are called Bladesongs. It's just Psyblade and I don't think there's anything to be embarrassed about that; it's within the Mesmer's wheelhouse. I do seriously suggest either renaming things or adding more of a music theme to the animations and abilities.

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So I don't really play mesmer normally which is why I was testing Virtuoso to see if I'd like to play one now. But given my unfamiliarity with the class, take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

I'm pretty happy with the spec from what I tested. Dual swords and the Dueling/Domination specializations seem pretty synergistic and strong with the strike damage trait line. Damage seems a bit high, at least from the perspective of someone playing close range, but numbers can be adjusted. Design and functionality seemed well thought out.

 

My main issue, which just might have been on my end, was that I think there was an overall clunky feeling to skills and traits that summons clones/illusions/phantasms and what creates a blade. Notably with the Dueling trait Desperate Decoy, I feel like whenever that activated, I had an unusual screen shake (I know that the screen might shake a little when entering stealth but this seemed bit more severe) and varying times for the blade to appear (sometimes instantly, sometimes after 2 seconds). It was also hard to tell what in the build was actually generating blades in practice, I feel like I'd do one rotation of skills and I'd generate 5 and then do the same rotation (after some time to let any internal cooldowns reset) and only generate 1 or 2.

 

The trait Infinite Forge seems a bit weird in placement and conception. Maybe I'd need to play through a prolonged encounter to really see the worth of it but it seemed like even while knowing basically nothing about mesmer, I had no problems generating blades (inconsistent amounts per rotation notwithstanding) even through the longer fights I was in. It also seems weird to me that the skill taken to favor gradual consistent blade generation over burst is on the strike damage trait line.

 

Having to aim the elite skill feels weird if you're just going to stay still while firing it.

 

I feel like maybe the noted cast times were different from what the skills were actually doing. It was slight but it feel like they were a little slower than what it said they were.

 

I personally hope the trait Mental Focus isn't changed to go off of something besides range or is changed to be long ranged focused.

 

Heal skill seems underwhelming. Maybe I missed something but it feels like it a heal based on an attack should be more aggressive or reward you more.

 

I like Rain of Swords and Sword of Decimation being different skills but they could probably use some cast time and damage number changes to make them feel more different.

Edited by BlueTurtle.9263
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Any builds out there pulling high numbers?

 

I'm on the golem doing about 33-34! I have been there for hours.

Let me know if you have build suggestions.

 

My set up is Dom/Duel/Virt

Dom- Middle, Middle, Top

Duel - Top, Bottom, Top

Virt - Middle, Middle, Middle

 

I'm running full zerk with Dagger/focus and Dagger/Sword. 

Edited by dontlook.1823
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From a PvP perspective:

 

The dagger just seems bland as a weapon. It only deals strike damage. No cripple to keep enemies away or cc of any kind. It feels very one dimensional and not useable. I do not like the second skill requiring me to deselect my target and then look down to get a reasonable amount of damage when I'm right on top of my target. This skill just feels clunky and lacking.

 

The entire top row of traits just feel incredible underwhelming. The virtuoso shines as a long range, bursty assassin, but these traits do little to help defend against people jumping me at all. The aegis duration is too short to be used as preemptive damage mitigation and because the bladesongs all have cast times and require targets (except the 4th one) the aegis on cast feels very clunky to use reactively. The quickness is nice but doesn't help to keep me alive once I've dodged/blocked an attack and I'm too focused on trying to escape to make use of it offensively, since I can't act while blocking or using the distortion utility. The grandmaster trait is nice but pales in comparison to the other grandmasters in terms of blade stocking. The damage from the blade attack just pathetic.

 

I like the condition damage traits. Although, I feel the bleeding duration from the adept trait is quite short considering only weapons that apply no damaging conditions count as blades. The grandmaster stocks blades incredibly fast but only 25% bleeding damage increase seems low. The majority of condition burst still comes from confusion/torment despite these traits.

 

Infinite Forge is an incredible trait that makes the class feel smooth but not overpowered. I still can't waste blades but my bladesongs will almost always be available. But, with all the bladesongs having cast times and obvious animations, the dueling ability of the spec is nonexistent IMO and the reactive, fast playstyle of the mesmer is basically gone.

 

THE HEAL SKILL SHOULD NOT CANCEL IF I TURN AWAY FROM MY TARGET MIDCAST!!!!!!!

 

Overall, I'm enjoying the virtuoso but I think it needs a lot of work.

 

 

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